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[dreman9999]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ridiculously huge quote pyramid

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

I think the problem with the Collector ship mission was two-fold: placement and amount of information recovered.

In order to unlock that mission, we need to have at least 8 squad members already recruited. I believe that's a few too many when we don't even know the mission parameters yet. There probably should have been at least one other mandatory mission involving the Collectors, either before or after Horizon. During this mission, we would discover where the Omega 4 Relay leads, and what the nature of the Collector presence is, but we would not discover the means by which the Normandy (or any other strike force) could be sent through without getting destroyed. Then, after more squadmate recruitment and preparation, we would board the Collector ship and find out two things: The IFF that allows the Collectors easy access to their base, and the fact that there is only 1 Collector ship.

Your forgeting that fact that the collector used what happened in the last meeting as a way to lure the cast into a trap. They put out a fake turian destress call stating the collector ship was damage. They used the fact that we damaged the collector ship on horizion to make a lure for Shepard.

That's not my point. My point is that the whole reveal about the Collectors living in the galaxy core, and not having a "homeworld" in the conventional sense was revealed too late. After acquiring Mordin and some combat specialists, as well as stopping the Collectors on Horizon, Shepard's next priority should have been to actively find a way to figure out what's behind Omega 4, not to recruit more team members for a mission whose parameters are still up in the air.

But how else would they revel that info.....The collectors are extremel isolated. To get more info on them you need to get  the info on their ship because they have no base out side the omega relay. The reason why I posted my statment before is to illutrate thethe only why to get that info is to get on the ship.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ridiculously huge quote pyramid

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

I think the problem with the Collector ship mission was two-fold: placement and amount of information recovered.

In order to unlock that mission, we need to have at least 8 squad members already recruited. I believe that's a few too many when we don't even know the mission parameters yet. There probably should have been at least one other mandatory mission involving the Collectors, either before or after Horizon. During this mission, we would discover where the Omega 4 Relay leads, and what the nature of the Collector presence is, but we would not discover the means by which the Normandy (or any other strike force) could be sent through without getting destroyed. Then, after more squadmate recruitment and preparation, we would board the Collector ship and find out two things: The IFF that allows the Collectors easy access to their base, and the fact that there is only 1 Collector ship.

Your forgeting that fact that the collector used what happened in the last meeting as a way to lure the cast into a trap. They put out a fake turian destress call stating the collector ship was damage. They used the fact that we damaged the collector ship on horizion to make a lure for Shepard.

That's not my point. My point is that the whole reveal about the Collectors living in the galaxy core, and not having a "homeworld" in the conventional sense was revealed too late. After acquiring Mordin and some combat specialists, as well as stopping the Collectors on Horizon, Shepard's next priority should have been to actively find a way to figure out what's behind Omega 4, not to recruit more team members for a mission whose parameters are still up in the air.

Again, not that big a deal.  Shep does small-unit work.  He needs a small unit, and builds one.  He'd have likely needed one regardless of what they found, for at least part of the mission.

Not that they had a way to do much scouting or intel work on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay.

Although you could legitimately ask why there was no attempt to study the IFF made before connecting it with the Normandy...  it had been months, another few weeks wouldn't have hurt.  Unless they were concerned that another colony would be hit in that time.  Could have spelled that out some in the game, it seems. 

[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

Why did the Geth have to create them? Why wouldn't the original Collector species augment themselves with cybernetics? That's how the Council would see it; they wouldn't even think of the Reapers.

Are you implying that the Collectors and Protheans (assuming that they're different species) share the same DNA? 

Collectors and Protheans share 'a quad-strand genetic structure'. EDI then goes on to say "These are no longer Protheans Shepard". They have 3 fewer chromosomes, reduced heterochromatin structure, and superfulous junk DNA has been removed. 

[Iakus]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

This is true.  The Morning War was roughly 300 years ago.  Samara encountered the Collectors sometime during her merc days, so at least 400 years ago.  Likely more.  Possibly a lot more.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No for an attack. I mean to finIsh the reaper. The reaper is no where near finished in ME2.  Most people though that the reaper was for a new attack...Arival add new info the changes all of that. They were geting ready to hit earth to complete the rearper, not hit earth with the reaper once it's done. Arraival can be done anytime after Horision, so that means the reapers could be already in the galexy in your game. Their primary goal is to harvest humanity and then the rest of the galexy. What you did in the collector base is a big undo. They have to start from scratch now. It's going to take longer to make a reaper now.

Arcturus Station and an entire Alliance fleet guard the bottleneck to the Charon Relay.  Plus whatever's in the Local system as well.  One Collector cruiser would be a bug on the windshield.  literally.  Even if one cruiser did have the capacity ot carry off several billion humans before the other races could wonder why Earth suddenly went silent.

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

Why did the Geth have to create them? Why wouldn't the original Collector species augment themselves with cybernetics? That's how the Council would see it; they wouldn't even think of the Reapers.

Are you implying that the Collectors and Protheans (assuming that they're different species) share the same DNA? 

Collectors and Protheans share 'a quad-strand genetic structure'--

A structure that only one race is known to have: the Protheans.

EDI then goes on to say "These are no longer Protheans Shepard". They have 3 fewer chromosomes, reduced heterochromatin structure, and superfulous junk DNA has been removed.

Which only helps my case, by explaining that the unique Protheans were tampered with (self infliction or not).

[Anacronian Stryx]

iakus wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

This is true.  The Morning War was roughly 300 years ago.  Samara encountered the Collectors sometime during her merc days, so at least 400 years ago.  Likely more.  Possibly a lot more.

Also one of the books mentions that the collectors aren't all that unknown, They at least have a reputation on Omega and is old enough to become legends.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No for an attack. I mean to finIsh the reaper. The reaper is no where near finished in ME2.  Most people though that the reaper was for a new attack...Arival add new info the changes all of that. They were geting ready to hit earth to complete the rearper, not hit earth with the reaper once it's done. Arraival can be done anytime after Horision, so that means the reapers could be already in the galexy in your game. Their primary goal is to harvest humanity and then the rest of the galexy. What you did in the collector base is a big undo. They have to start from scratch now. It's going to take longer to make a reaper now.

Arcturus Station and an entire Alliance fleet guard the bottleneck to the Charon Relay.  Plus whatever's in the Local system as well.  One Collector cruiser would be a bug on the windshield.  literally.  Even if one cruiser did have the capacity ot carry off several billion humans before the other races could wonder why Earth suddenly went silent.

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

But even so, Shepard did nothing to halt, slow, or even seriously hamper the coming invasion.  All he did was make it take longer to turn humans into goo.  So it'll take longer to make a Reaper out of them.  The "take out humanity in one big swoop" part is still totally unhindered.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Mass Effect 2 Fight an epic fight to mess up the reapers time table!!

[100k]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

iakus wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

This is true.  The Morning War was roughly 300 years ago.  Samara encountered the Collectors sometime during her merc days, so at least 400 years ago.  Likely more.  Possibly a lot more.

Also one of the books mentions that the collectors aren't all that unknown, They at least have a reputation on Omega and is old enough to become legends.

I'd guess that they  are at least 10,000 years old-- and probably about 40,000 years old.

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Because the reapers are the only ones theat havest people with out any signs of detection. Shepard ask you very same question. Look at the firstr meet of TIM and Shep agein.......

And now were back to the HOW does TIM knows this?
See good writing would explain such things especially when they are plot relevant.
Lazy writing would just glance over it.

Didn't see you had added this.

2.The thing is, we can't gain any more info outside of what we got from thecollector ship. This is an enemy with better tech who is hiding behind a locked door with one way in. If we try to probe the relay for mor info on the collector after we get IFF....They will know we are about to attack and prepar a countor attack to take us out once the ship enter their space.

Well the Shadow Broker send a probe and there was no counter attack waiting for Shepard when they went though so i don't really see your point here.

It's any easy deduction.... Who else would do somethinglike this the way the collectors did the harvesting. The were no signs let of what happened, who did it, how they did it and where they went. With the fact that all the tech in the galexy is on equal stading ground outside of experimental tech, no other race would be able to hervest/collect humans they way they did. He did an estamate based on pass fact, and current fact and felt the reapers where behind it them being the only one with the tech to kidnap colonies in a way they can't be tracked.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No for an attack. I mean to finIsh the reaper. The reaper is no where near finished in ME2.  Most people though that the reaper was for a new attack...Arival add new info the changes all of that. They were geting ready to hit earth to complete the rearper, not hit earth with the reaper once it's done. Arraival can be done anytime after Horision, so that means the reapers could be already in the galexy in your game. Their primary goal is to harvest humanity and then the rest of the galexy. What you did in the collector base is a big undo. They have to start from scratch now. It's going to take longer to make a reaper now.

Arcturus Station and an entire Alliance fleet guard the bottleneck to the Charon Relay.  Plus whatever's in the Local system as well.  One Collector cruiser would be a bug on the windshield.  literally.  Even if one cruiser did have the capacity ot carry off several billion humans before the other races could wonder why Earth suddenly went silent.

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

But even so, Shepard did nothing to halt, slow, or even seriously hamper the coming invasion.  All he did was make it take longer to turn humans into goo.  So it'll take longer to make a Reaper out of them.  The "take out humanity in one big swoop" part is still totally unhindered.

The fact that theyhave a longer time limit then what they had before means they were delayed. The have to start over, giving us much more time to put together a fleet to take them out. If we did not do what we did in ME2.....they would have benn able to focus more resorces to the rest of the galexy.

[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

Why did the Geth have to create them? Why wouldn't the original Collector species augment themselves with cybernetics? That's how the Council would see it; they wouldn't even think of the Reapers.

Are you implying that the Collectors and Protheans (assuming that they're different species) share the same DNA? 

Collectors and Protheans share 'a quad-strand genetic structure'--

A structure that only one race is known to have: the Protheans.

EDI then goes on to say "These are no longer Protheans Shepard". They have 3 fewer chromosomes, reduced heterochromatin structure, and superfulous junk DNA has been removed.

Which only helps my case, by explaining that the unique Protheans were tampered with (self infliction or not).

How does it help your case? Just because the Protheans are the only 'known' race with a similar DNA structure doesn't prove they are the only ones in the galaxy to have a similar DNA. When the Turians arrived on the galactic scene, they weren't though to be repurposed Quarians, even though at the time, the Quarians were the only 'known' species with that kind of DNA.

Anyways this really has little to do with what the original argument was; that the Collectors, if they had numbers in the millions, would have attacked more than they did. Why would the Reapers not want the task they gave the collectors to be done efficiently and quickly? Even if they wanted to really be that secretive, why not just abduct all the Terminus human colonies in a short window of time? That would make resistance far less likely than drawing out the process.

That suggests that the Collectors don't have the numbers to do this. Which means Shepard has somewhat of a chance. Not a great one; it is called a Suicide Mission. But it is a chance.

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Mass Effect 2 Fight an epic fight to mess up the reapers time table!!

That really the only thing you can do. In War, if your fight a stronger force, all you can do it find a way to delay them to weaken them so you can that them out. It's key for all defencive wars. It you don't your allow the other army time to steamroll over your army. Any form of edlay helps.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Because the reapers are the only ones theat havest people with out any signs of detection. Shepard ask you very same question. Look at the firstr meet of TIM and Shep agein.......

And now were back to the HOW does TIM knows this?
See good writing would explain such things especially when they are plot relevant.
Lazy writing would just glance over it.

Didn't see you had added this.

2.The thing is, we can't gain any more info outside of what we got from thecollector ship. This is an enemy with better tech who is hiding behind a locked door with one way in. If we try to probe the relay for mor info on the collector after we get IFF....They will know we are about to attack and prepar a countor attack to take us out once the ship enter their space.

Well the Shadow Broker send a probe and there was no counter attack waiting for Shepard when they went though so i don't really see your point here.

Also, the SB did have the iff needed to get to the area of the collector base.He was not attacked because he was not a threat. His probes landed no where near the collector base. The reason why Shepard got the iff in the fitst palce was to be able to land in the right area.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

Ah, I misunderstood then.

But even so, Shepard did nothing to halt, slow, or even seriously hamper the coming invasion.  All he did was make it take longer to turn humans into goo.  So it'll take longer to make a Reaper out of them.  The "take out humanity in one big swoop" part is still totally unhindered.

From a plot advancement POV, he did learn more about the Reapers. I'm pretty sure that the nature of Reapers will be important in defeating them in ME3.

However, did his defeat of the Collectors actually slow the invasion? Absolutely not. And yeah, I think it would have made the story more interesting if the plot were more monumental. 

In TTT, defeating Sauraman may have been a side show but it did free the Rohirim, which was crucial to next book. 

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's any easy deduction.... Who else would do somethinglike this the way the collectors did the harvesting.
The were no signs let of what happened, who did it, how they did it and where they went. With the fact that all the tech in the galexy is on equal stading ground outside of experimental tech, no other race would be able to hervest/collect humans they way they did. He did an estamate based on pass fact, and current fact and felt the reapers where behind it them being the only one with the tech to kidnap colonies in a way they can't be tracked.

Really.. in the mass effect universe what deduction makes most sense?

All the coloniest are missing from some human colonies and the reason is :

A. The reapers are known to harvest and entire galaxy but here we believe they are somehow involved with the disappearance of humans from small colonies.

B. Slavers have found a way to expand their operations.

There is nothing specifically that points to the reapers, If fact looking on the scale they usually operate they would be far down on the suspect list, Even if some new unknown tech is needed.

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Mass Effect 2 Fight an epic fight to mess up the reapers time table!!

That really the only thing you can do. In War, if your fight a stronger force, all you can do it find a way to delay them to weaken them so you can that them out. It's key for all defencive wars. It you don't your allow the other army time to steamroll over your army. Any form of edlay helps.

True but you rarely create entire games around such actions.

[Montana]

Smudboy basically touches on every single issue I had with the story/plot of ME2, and it only got worse with the arrival dlc.
Why go through all the trouble when you're basically around the corner....

It might get explained in ME3, but I kind of doubt it.

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's any easy deduction.... Who else would do somethinglike this the way the collectors did the harvesting.
The were no signs let of what happened, who did it, how they did it and where they went. With the fact that all the tech in the galexy is on equal stading ground outside of experimental tech, no other race would be able to hervest/collect humans they way they did. He did an estamate based on pass fact, and current fact and felt the reapers where behind it them being the only one with the tech to kidnap colonies in a way they can't be tracked.

Really.. in the mass effect universe what deduction makes most sense?

All the coloniest are missing from some human colonies and the reason is :

A. The reapers are known to harvest and entire galaxy but here we believe they are somehow involved with the disappearance of humans from small colonies.

B. Slavers have found a way to expand their operations.

There is nothing specifically that points to the reapers, If fact looking on the scale they usually operate they would be far down on the suspect list, Even if some new unknown tech is needed.

Slavers are at least tracable and leave signs on conflict. In these abdution, it look as if every on just got up and left. Which is the key oddity of the whole colony kidnapping. No one in the currect galexy has tech that does that to a colony and the reapers are the only race with more advance tech then we do.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:41 .

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I never siad the collectors are going to attack earth. I said that the reaper on the collector base was going to be finished after the reaper invaion. They were going to make humanity in one big swoop. Reapers invade, take out defences. Harvet humans and put them in the half way done reaper they have already......Then finsh it and go after the rest of the galexy......Now that will take longer.

Mass Effect 2 Fight an epic fight to mess up the reapers time table!!

That really the only thing you can do. In War, if your fight a stronger force, all you can do it find a way to delay them to weaken them so you can that them out. It's key for all defencive wars. It you don't your allow the other army time to steamroll over your army. Any form of edlay helps.

True but you rarely create entire games around such actions.

But it the only thing that can be done to the reapers other than some big deus ex machina that ends the war or fight. You have to endure them or beat them, never turn them away.
Also, the epic of troy is just one big delay tactic in war.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, the SB did have the iff needed to get to the area of the collector base.He was not attacked because he was not a threat. His probes landed no where near the collector base. The reason why Shepard got the iff in the fitst palce was to be able to land in the right area.

First of all you don't know where the SB probe went since it is never stated anywhere.
Second how can Shepard know how to "land in the right area" when Shepard has no idea what is beyond the Omega 4 relay?

These are all arguments after the fact.

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, the SB did have the iff needed to get to the area of the collector base.He was not attacked because he was not a threat. His probes landed no where near the collector base. The reason why Shepard got the iff in the fitst palce was to be able to land in the right area.

First of all you don't know where the SB probe went since it is never stated anywhere.
Second how can Shepard know how to "land in the right area" when Shepard has no idea what is beyond the Omega 4 relay?

These are all arguments after the fact.

.....The reaper IFF....http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF....the whole reason why you when to the delic reaper was to get it....why? Because it give you the detail of where the safe zone is the center of the galexy. And Shepard is the only on that has it who is not indocrinated.

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

Slavers are least tracable and leave signs on conflict. In these abdution, it look as if every on just got up and left. Which is the key oddity of the whole colony kidnapping. No one in the currect galexy has tech that does that to a colony and the reapers are the only race with more advance tech then we do.

So slavers have found a way to mask their pressence, It's still a more proberble suspect that the ancient machine Gods, Hell the Geth would also be a more likely suspect.

That's one of the problems of ME2 is that everything moves on such a tiny scale that the game seems like a thinned down Mass Effect experience.

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, the SB did have the iff needed to get to the area of the collector base.He was not attacked because he was not a threat. His probes landed no where near the collector base. The reason why Shepard got the iff in the fitst palce was to be able to land in the right area.

First of all you don't know where the SB probe went since it is never stated anywhere.
Second how can Shepard know how to "land in the right area" when Shepard has no idea what is beyond the Omega 4 relay?

These are all arguments after the fact.

.....The reaper IFF....http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF....the whole reason why you when to the delic reaper was to get it....why? Because it give you the detail of where the safe zone is the center of the galexy. And Shepard is the only on that has it who is not indocrinated.

Ehh okay i fail to see your point here, But you also earlier stated that the SB probe had the IFF so what is it?