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[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]1.Organic supstace is destroyed in cold space and firy explotions.

[*]COmmander SHepard wishes to disagree 

[Iakus]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The nature of Reapers was no more retconned than Cerberus or mass effect fields were retconned.

Wait are you arguing for or against retcons here?  

"I have no strong feelings one way or the other." 


Actually, I do not believe that either of those three were retconned.

Just messing with ya.  Though there are some who would call them retcons.  I myself refer to ME2's Cerberus as "kinder, gentler Cerberus" 

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

         

dreman9999 wrote..[*]1. Bu they do have a reponse, the want to turn humans into a reaper. As to why humans....being that it's a trilogy and it will be explain later....It's going to br fully explained in ME3.
[*]2.Their first plan fail, so they tried something eles. The Alpha relay....but that was soon destoryed. Their desire is always a surpise attack and wanted to use the fastest way to do so. Only now using the citdel relay is not an opinion because the races are watching for that.....So they try a bad the back door, but it destoryed.
[*]3.Yes, if its done from a distance to a computer system by accessing it, that's hacking. But that not the point, they wanted to take the ship out to give shepard no way out. And it never was shut down because EDI stoped it from happening. What I been trying to say and you not getting is the fact that EDI was the only reason why Shepard got off that Ship. If EDI was not there, the ship would be shut down and no one would be able to hack the collector system to get Shepard out.
[*]4.No, it not irrelivent, why? Because it part of the over arching plot. It happen wheather you played it or not. The trial at the start of ME3 is all about what you did in the arrival dlc. It part of the plot so it's relivent.
5.Again, if that what they feel, it's what they feel.  If you don't like it, tuff luck. People don't agree on thing they think is logiclly right all the time. Politics, freedom of speech, game forums.... If they don't agree with you, get over it. That how life is.

 

First, bulleted lists need to die. 

Second:

1) So would it have been better if Shepard never learned that the Citadel was a dark space relay?  It could always be explained further in ME3, right?

2) How was building the human Reaper anything but an opportunity for humanity to catch on to the Collectors?  What was so important it couldn't wait?  

3) They didn't need to take out the Normandy to trap Shepard.  All they needed was to take out the Kodiak.  Then ust hold off the Normandy while they head for the nearest relay. ...

4) It's irrelevent from the perspective of ME2's main plot.  Not everyone bought Arrival.  Not all playthroughs include Arrival.  The events themselves may be relevant to the overall story, just as the First Contact War or Krogan Rebellions are relevant.  But the DLC itself is not, at least for the purposes of ME2.

5) Nothing happens in a story for no reason.  Writers have absolute control over the universe they create.  People say and do what they do not because of emotions or logic, but because they dance to the writer's tune.  Ash and Kaidan don't "feel" anything.  If the writer has them act irrationally, they act irrationally.  It is the responibility of the writers to maintain thier "character" and keep them consistent to thier natures.

On Horizon this either A) did not happen or Did happen, but we were given no context to understand how this is thier nature, as it is contrary to how they acted in ME1.  Either way, it was very poorly done.

1. It would not. It would be worst for Shepard and the plot. The twist would be gone and we have no reason why Saran to attack the citidel.
2.The point is to do it quickly one the invasion stated. It was a 2 part plan. One part was to get Shepard, the other part was to start making the reaper. Shepard was to be the new Saren. But that fell apart because they underestamated their targets. Shepard's baody was taken by Cereberus,and the gear, ship, cybernetics, and EDI got in their way the rest of the time. With that, their plan fail and they had to start over. They wanted to be done with the convertion of humanity as quickly as possible to focus on the other races. But now, sisnce the human reaper is gone, they have to focus more on humanity.
3.The normady has more then one Kodiak. So they would just send another one. Even then they could not with EDI hacking the system and blocking them off from it and Shepard.
4.As I said, it doesnot matter if everyone played it. In ME3, it's stated to have happened. The trial is all about what happen in the arrival dlc. The dlc adds a new perspective to what the reapers are doing. It may not be part of the plotline in ME2, but it is part of the overarching plot of ME in general , LIKE me2, so it can be applied to ME2.
5.That can be said withanything in a story. Any thing. In star war Varder did not need to be Luke father. And BAMBI'S mom did not need to die. But the writers wrote it in anyway because they wanted the plot to go that direction. Everypeice of a plot is like that...good or bad. So saying so is pointless. People are ageinst the direction in the plot because they did not like see these character this way not because it was good or bad for the plot. And they ignored the characters past character development. Example:Ashley wants to make up for her families military failure in ME1. And she to do this in ME2 by joining cerberus?
Kaiden has a stigma about being a biotic.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Biotics#Human_Biotics
Human biotics face widespread prejudice and distrust from the rest of
their species, mostly due to misconceptions about their abilities (some
people wrongly believe that they can read or control minds). Certain
religious and ideological organizations are also opposed to the concept
of biotic modification. Some biotics have been known to abuse their
abilities - using them to cheat at roulette, for example, or to pull
people's chairs out from beneath them. There have been a few reports of
individuals like these being attacked by frightened mobs, and sometimes
even killed.
The Alliance military, on the other hand, welcomes biotics with open arms and provides them with massive enlistment incentives.
He join the alliance to show biotics are not to be fear and to prove as a biotic he is useful to humaity. And jioning cerberus, a terroist organization the alliance desowns of, would shwo how useful biotics are to humanity how?

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]1.Organic supstace is destroyed in cold space and firy explotions.

COmmander SHepard wishes to disagree 

Commander Shepard was in a space suit falling into an atmosphere. So he was never expose to space. Just losing air to it.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]1.Organic supstace is destroyed in cold space and firy explotions.

Commander SHepard wishes to disagree 

Commander Shepard was in a space suit falling into an atmosphere. So he was never expose to space. Just losing air to it.

Miranda:  "Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initially feared.  in addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long-term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures.  Despite the extent of the physical trauma, Wilson assures me subject is salvagable.  The Lazarus Project will proceed as planned."

Ah the side effects of trying to be too "awesome" 

Modifié par iakus, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[ThePwener]

This **** is still going on? I have learned something: put the word "Smudboy" on the title of any thread with a link to a youtube review and the users flock like a... like a.... well that joke went to hell.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]1.Organic supstace is destroyed in cold space and firy explotions.

COmmander SHepard wishes to disagree 

Commander Shepard was in a space suit falling into an atmosphere. So he was never expose to space. Just losing air to it.

Miranda:  "Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initially feared.  in addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long-term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures.  Despite the extent of the physical trauma, Wilson assures me subject is salvagable.  The Lazarus Project will proceed as planned."

Ah the die effects of trying to be too "awesome" 

Note that Shepard was not crack open and blown to bits...Like Sovereign.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Nashiktal]

ThePwener wrote...

This **** is still going on? I have learned something: put the word "Smudboy" on the title of any thread with a link to a youtube review and the users flock like a... like a.... well that joke went to hell.

You could always not post Pwener. Otherwise you could get over your hangups over smudboy and join in the discussion. The thread isn't just about smudboy you know.

Or you could keep spamming the thread, which is about as productive as those annoying popcorn posts.

[Iakus]

[*]

1. It would not. It would be worst for Shepard and the plot. The twist would be gone and we have no reason why Saran to attack the citidel.

So...why are the Collectors building a Reaper so far in advance of the fleet? Tipping off humanity? Small scale tests, sure. But thousands, tens of thousands of people?

2.The point is to do it quickly one the invasion stated. It was a 2 part plan. One part was to get Shepard, the other part was to start making the reaper. Shepard was to be the new Saren. But that fell apart because they underestamated their targets. Shepard's baody was taken by Cereberus,and the gear, ship, cybernetics, and EDI got in their way the rest of the time. With that, their plan fail and they had to start over. They wanted to be done with the convertion of humanity as quickly as possible to focus on the other races. But now, sisnce the human reaper is gone, they have to focus more on humanity.

Where is any of this stated? Where is any of this even hinted at? Even the reasoning for grabbing Shepard is in cut lines, and therefore noncanon.

3.The normady has more then one Kodiak. So they would just send another one. Even then they could not with EDI hacking the system and blocking them off from it and Shepard.

And what's the defensive armament of a Kodiak? And EDI couldn't stop them if they weren't so foolish as to form a connection with her. Notice she wasn't doing much hacking of the Cruiser beyond the Relay.

4.As I said, it doesnot matter if everyone played it. In ME3, it's stated to have happened. The trial is all about what happen in the arrival dlc. The dlc adds a new perspective to what the reapers are doing. It may not be part of the plotline in ME2, but it is part of the overarching plot of ME in general , LIKE me2, so it can be applied to ME2.

Yes the events of Arrival happened. So did the First Contact War. So did the Skyllian Blitz. The raid on Mindoir. Thy all fit into the Mass Effect lore. But Arrival is not part of the main storyline to ME2. It has nothing to do with it, any ore than anything I just listed has to do with it. If someone chose not to purchase that dlc, but did all the "vanilla" missions right up through the SM, did they in fact do a full playthough of ME2?

5.That can be said withanything in a story. Any thing. In star war Varder did not need to be Luke father. And BAMBI'S mom did not need to die. But the writers wrote it in anyway because they wanted the plot to go that direction. Everypeice of a plot is like that...good or bad. So saying so is pointless. People are ageinst the direction in the plot because they did not like see these character this way not because it was good or bad for the plot. And they ignored the characters past character development. Example:Ashley wants to make up for her families military failure in ME1. And she to do this in ME2 by joining cerberus?
Kaiden has a stigma about being a biotic.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Biotics#Human_Biotics
Human biotics face widespread prejudice and distrust from the rest of
their species, mostly due to misconceptions about their abilities (some
people wrongly believe that they can read or control minds). Certain
religious and ideological organizations are also opposed to the concept
of biotic modification. Some biotics have been known to abuse their
abilities - using them to cheat at roulette, for example, or to pull
people's chairs out from beneath them. There have been a few reports of
individuals like these being attacked by frightened mobs, and sometimes
even killed.
The Alliance military, on the other hand, welcomes biotics with open arms and provides them with massive enlistment incentives.
He join the alliance to show biotics are not to be fear and to prove as a biotic he is useful to humaity. And jioning cerberus, a terroist organization the alliance desowns of, would shwo how useful biotics are to humanity how?

And what does that have to do with how they viewed Shepard? I never questioned their loyalty to the Alliance. I've never said they should have joined Shepard's crew. Not once. Ever. I'm questioning their belief that Shepard was a traitor. That makes zero sense. They see Shepard working with them, after all the bases they raided, projects they've witnessed, and they never stop to wonder why? Why Shepard would work with them, why Cerberus would accept him? No, they skip to the worst possible explanation. Beyond all logic, beyond everything they should know about Shepard and their shared history. But the writers, in their wisdom, decided to go that route with the dialogue.

Modifié par iakus, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]
Note that Shepard was not crack open and blown to bits...Like Sovereign.

His suit was 

Modifié par iakus, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Fixers0]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The nature of Reapers was no more retconned than Cerberus or mass effect fields were retconned.

Right? so that's why they all appear in these videos, the last one being a major point.

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]
Note that Shepard was not crack open and blown to bits...Like Sovereign.

His suit was 

[*]But not enough for him it burn up to little peices. Nor was he blowned up.

[ThePwener]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


[*]
Note that Shepard was not crack open and blown to bits...Like Sovereign.

His suit was 

But not enough for him it burn up to little peices. Nor was he blowned up.

He's body was unreconizable if the comics are to be credited. As in either disfigured, burned or "blown up".

[Nashiktal]

Meat and Tubes as Jacob put it.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

[*]

1. It would not. It would be worst for Shepard and the plot. The twist would be gone and we have no reason why Saran to attack the citidel.

So...why are the Collectors building a Reaper so far in advance of the fleet? Tipping off humanity? Small scale tests, sure. But thousands, tens of thousands of people?

2.The point is to do it quickly one the invasion stated. It was a 2 part plan. One part was to get Shepard, the other part was to start making the reaper. Shepard was to be the new Saren. But that fell apart because they underestamated their targets. Shepard's baody was taken by Cereberus,and the gear, ship, cybernetics, and EDI got in their way the rest of the time. With that, their plan fail and they had to start over. They wanted to be done with the convertion of humanity as quickly as possible to focus on the other races. But now, sisnce the human reaper is gone, they have to focus more on humanity.

Where is any of this stated? Where is any of this even hinted at? Even the reasoning for grabbing Shepard is in cut lines, and therefore noncanon.

3.The normady has more then one Kodiak. So they would just send another one. Even then they could not with EDI hacking the system and blocking them off from it and Shepard.

And what's the defensive armament of a Kodiak? And EDI couldn't stop them if they weren't so foolish as to form a connection with her. Notice she wasn't doing much hacking of the Cruiser beyond the Relay.

4.As I said, it doesnot matter if everyone played it. In ME3, it's stated to have happened. The trial is all about what happen in the arrival dlc. The dlc adds a new perspective to what the reapers are doing. It may not be part of the plotline in ME2, but it is part of the overarching plot of ME in general , LIKE me2, so it can be applied to ME2.

Yes the events of Arrival happened. So did the First Contact War. So did the Skyllian Blitz. The raid on Mindoir. Thy all fit into the Mass Effect lore. But Arrival is not part of the main storyline to ME2. It has nothing to do with it, any ore than anything I just listed has to do with it. If someone chose not to purchase that dlc, but did all the "vanilla" missions right up through the SM, did they in fact do a full playthough of ME2?

5.That can be said withanything in a story. Any thing. In star war Varder did not need to be Luke father. And BAMBI'S mom did not need to die. But the writers wrote it in anyway because they wanted the plot to go that direction. Everypeice of a plot is like that...good or bad. So saying so is pointless. People are ageinst the direction in the plot because they did not like see these character this way not because it was good or bad for the plot. And they ignored the characters past character development. Example:Ashley wants to make up for her families military failure in ME1. And she to do this in ME2 by joining cerberus?
Kaiden has a stigma about being a biotic.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Biotics#Human_Biotics
Human biotics face widespread prejudice and distrust from the rest of
their species, mostly due to misconceptions about their abilities (some
people wrongly believe that they can read or control minds). Certain
religious and ideological organizations are also opposed to the concept
of biotic modification. Some biotics have been known to abuse their
abilities - using them to cheat at roulette, for example, or to pull
people's chairs out from beneath them. There have been a few reports of
individuals like these being attacked by frightened mobs, and sometimes
even killed.
The Alliance military, on the other hand, welcomes biotics with open arms and provides them with massive enlistment incentives.
He join the alliance to show biotics are not to be fear and to prove as a biotic he is useful to humaity. And jioning cerberus, a terroist organization the alliance desowns of, would shwo how useful biotics are to humanity how?

And what does that have to do with how they viewed Shepard? I never questioned their loyalty to the Alliance. I've never said they should have joined Shepard's crew. Not once. Ever. I'm questioning their belief that Shepard was a traitor. That makes zero sense. They see Shepard working with them, after all the bases they raided, projects they've witnessed, and they never stop to wonder why? Why Shepard would work with them, why Cerberus would accept him? No, they skip to the worst possible explanation. Beyond all logic, beyond everything they should know about Shepard and their shared history. But the writers, in their wisdom, decided to go that route with the dialogue.

[*]1. Again, the idea was to capture Shepard while making the human reaper. The tip off would not matter because they would have Shepard but that fell apart. They still when with the plan so that when they started the invaison in ME3 they could focus on the rest of the universe and not just one planet. With the human reaper destoryed....they are stuck a point one. The started the whole human -reaper creation to get a foot hold in the invasion.

[*]2.The reason to get Shepard was not cut....Out side of what Liara was going to say to you after LotSB before that was changed. It's in harbengers Dialogue. On point, this is based on what's been shown of ME3 and arrival.

[*]3.The entire time in the collector ship she was hacking it and on point, the collectors did not know Shepard had an AI like EDI on the ship. If they knew they would do something else...Like with the abduction of the normandys crew.

[*]4.It may not be part of the main plot point but it is involved with ME2 and ME3. It gives a general direction on what the reapers aretrying to do andwhy they are doing it. The dlc can be done at any time after Horizion, meaning the reapers could be in the galexy in many playthroughs before you attack the reapers. That means the invasion would of started before the collectors were done with the human reaper, or if done after the final mission....the reapers traveled that close to the galexy to use the alpha relay, they were just not ontime tos stop Shepard. The dlc could of been finished with ether Shepard taking to the collector general or harbinger....
The point is the dlcexplain the reapers intesions...They were never planning to use the human reaper to invade.
[*]5.And then he explian what he was trying to do. They got angry over shock and said extreme things to make their point. But in truth, legally he is a trator if he is working with a disown wanted terrorest group. Ever one gave him leway with it because they understand this is the fastest way to understand what is going on with the colonies.

[dreman9999]

ThePwener wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


[*]
Note that Shepard was not crack open and blown to bits...Like Sovereign.

His suit was 

But not enough for him it burn up to little peices. Nor was he blowned up.

He's body was unreconizable if the comics are to be credited. As in either disfigured, burned or "blown up".

It was not blown up .... It as intact enough to revive, it was still in one peice. Sovergin was blown up to bits.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

It was not blown up .... It as intact enough to revive, it was still in one peice. Sovergin was blown up to bits.

Would you like to explain how this is possible?

[ThePwener]

dreman9999 wrote...

It was not blown up .... It as intact enough to revive, it was still in one peice. Sovergin was blown up to bits.

You sound like Zulu. That guy is funny.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

I believe that the main reasons there are 136 pages so far on the theme of Smudboy's videos here in BSN are because of the incredible span between amazingly bad and petty arguments that he uses against ME2 and actually pretty good intelligent and spot on criticisms he is able to produce. All conveyed in the same smug, all knowing demigod arrogant and incapable of humour style of his.

There is no smug, arrogant style. You see what you want to see there.
If a guy speaks calmly, he's suddenly arrogant..seriously..<_<

We could discuss the details of why I disagree with most points that Smudboy raises on ME2 plot, although it would be sufficient to say that when I later saw Squees (?) videos, I thought he counter-pointed pretty much most of the things I had to say.

Really? I thought he didn't coutner nothing at all.

Still this is such a small point, while we know that so many sci-fi movies or games are filled with "impossibilities" of this kind, that to take this part and cry out "BAD WRITING" is just petty.

No, it's bad writing. To harp on smudboy becase one doesn't like the tone of his vocie is petty.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


Give us something so that
this doesn't come off as a contrived ass pull. I still hold firm to my
belief that the Reapers being Cybernetic is a retcon.

You are of course entitiled to your beliefs. However in this case, in the technical definition of the word 'retcon', you are wrong.

But fits the asspull defeinition perfectly. Which is just as bad.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

But you see, if we were discussing physics, I would respect the views of a physicist who had dedicated their life to studying that field, and I would believe they could lend credence on what theories/views were most accurate to the real objective state of things

 Seeing as literary standards are not real or objective, then those educated people have devoted their lives to justifying subjective standards as though they were real or objective

Who sez physics is objective? There's people who believe Earth is 6000 years old. Go and tell them they are wrong. Lets see you convince them of your "objectivity".

Writing standards exist for a reason. They arne't as hard as physical laws, but they aren't subjective - not really.
The enjoymet of a particial piece of fiction may be subjective, but thats another matter altogehter.

Subjectivism is the last refuge of the people who have no real arguments anymore.

 Last refuge of the people who have no real arguments anymore? Sounds like ad hominem to me

 The point with my physics remark is that there is a measure by which you can prove a physics theory wrong or right.. by whether it accurately describes the way the world really is. People may argue over whether certain theories (such as the age of the Earth) do accurately describe the way the world really is, but we can do experiments, examine data etc. to see if it is the case

 With writing standards, we have nothing like that. It is only us, not the universe, which decides what makes a good story. And an appeal to the authority of literary standards does not elevate one preference over another

And you claim that it's fully subjective is garbage. It's not. You only claim that because you disagree.

Why should I care about your measure? I renounce your physics. You will never, ever prove me wrong, because I denounce your proof. Everything you say and do is subjective. Every sound that comes out of your mouth is subjective. Every measurment you bring forth is a lie.

What youre basicly saying is that such thing as bad writing doesn't exist.
Which is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

 See I don't see why you are reacting so strongly (and oddly) to the idea that some things are objective, and some things are subjective

 What people say is or isn't bad writing is a matter of their own perspective, or academic consensus. To say that that is the case isn't the same as suggesting such extreme doubt and skepticism that suggests that the physical world is unknowable or non-existant

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But fits the asspull defeinition perfectly. Which is just as bad.

Any plot twist can fit the definition of "asspull".

Also, learn what retroactive continuity actually means before you use it left and right, people.

If there are no pre-established facts (characters' assumptions don't fit into this category) then it's not a retcon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
See I don't see why you are reacting so strongly (and oddly) to the idea that some things are objective, and some things are subjective

I don't see why you're so opposed to the truth there there is bad writing in ME2.

Some things are more or less objective/subjective than others.
Bad writing isn't fully subjective. Period.

 What people say is or isn't bad writing is a matter of their own perspective, or academic consensus. To say that that is the case isn't the same as suggesting such extreme doubt and skepticism that suggests that the physical world is unknowable or non-existant

And if I say that that's juts your subjective oppinion, what do you do then? How do you counter that?
If no matter what you argue I counter everything with "it's subjective" then no disscusion can be had.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But fits the asspull defeinition perfectly. Which is just as bad.

Any plot twist can fit the definition of "asspull".

Also, learn what retroactive continuity actually means before you use it left and right, people.

If there are no pre-established facts (characters' assumptions don't fit into this category) then it's not a retcon.

Bad plot-twists are ass-pulls.

Something that should have been hinted at (Reaper beign part organics - with Sovereign remains, derelict reaper, Vigils info, etc - and no one noticed anything????) but is not, is an ass-pull.

A character betraying you, or a character bein your father is not.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

or a character bein your father is not.

More often than not, that one comes awfully close to being an asspull as well.