6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

 ''Send a probe''

Reaper IFF is required. Unless you want the probe to be destroyed by Oculus, and then Shepard says : ''Well, we can never go on the other side now, but at least we know there are round things that shoot laser! It was so worth risking my life a thousand times gathering these people and solving their daddy issues!''

As for mining the relay, drifts of several thousand kilometers are common. Unless TIM can produce enough ordinance to create a  sphere of explosives around the Relay of that diameter (lol), don't bother.

 Assembling a Cerberus fleet? Just ressurecting Shepard and building the Normandy apparently bled Cerberus dry, according to EDI. Plus, one ship is OK, but a whole fleet would attract some very unwanted attention if it started hanging around the relay that people who trade with the Terminus use. As for killing Aria, yeah, it's suggested she basically fought Wrex to a standstill, she brought down a powerful Krogan warlord, she rules Omega and has a legion of thugs at her beck and call (not that it stopped Shepard before, admitedly), and her intelligence is apparently good enough to counter the Shadow Broker's, at least somewhat. You can't just waltz in and headshot her.

Really, you guys are scraping the bottom of the nitpicking barrel. 

[Savber100]

Nashiktal wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Quite odd to see people defend ME2s plot of "lets go blindly use the relay to fight an unknown enemy which could number in the billions with one ship containing 14 of the best "badasses" in the galaxy"

What was the alternative? They had good evidence that there was only one collecter ship so, every one they encountered was the same one. Even if there were more what would they do, wait for cerb to amass their so called fleet and let the collecters get all the humans.

Actually there are multiple collector vessles if you listen to EDI. Apparently there are multiple collector ship signatures. (And if they really did have only one ships, not only is that pathetic but makes their plot even more nonsense) 

Why can't we send probes in? We never even attempted that, hell even the shadow broker did and he was working WITH the collectors. Nope, we send the most valuable ship, filled valuable land soldiers into an unkown territory that is supposed to be controlled by the reapers minions...

Yay.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the ME games, but if we only defend without criticising, Bioware won't improve. Also not enough people give smudboy a chance, sure he nitpicks the fine details, but he isn't just insulting for the sake of it, and he does enjoy bioware's work or he wouldn't be criticising it.

Wasn't the Shadow Broker in league with the Collectors? Who knows? Maybe the probes only worked because the Collectors allowed it. After all, they worked pretty closely to get Shepard's body and I see no evidence that the relation had broken down after the events of Redemption. 

Also, a probe wouldn't work if the Collectors sense it was unfamiliar (e.g. not Collector or SB). The Oculus would destroy them. 

And isn't the whole point of a sending the best into Omega 4 Relay was to up the chance of success. They had no intel (and probably can't ever find any) hence why they need the best to get in and get out before the Collector could fully prepare against an attack. 

[Il Divo]

Nashiktal wrote...



Why can't we send probes in? We never even attempted that, hell even the shadow broker did and he was working WITH the collectors. Nope, we send the most valuable ship, filled valuable land soldiers into an unkown territory that is supposed to be controlled by the reapers minions...

Well, assuming probes follow the basic rules of the Omega IV relay, they would require an IFF to make it through the relay. It's more of a plothole after Shepard obtains the IFF, although there you could argue that the team being captured meant that there was not enough time for Shepard to take things slowly.

[Dragoonlordz]

BlahDog wrote...

If they sent a probe they would lose any hope of having the element of suprrise (wether it played a role in the actual battle, who knows). The more time that cerberus did recon the mre time the collectors would have to take people, defeating the purpose of doing things quickly and covertly.   

What surprise.. They had no idea if was a thousend ships on other side which regardless of how many blink at seeing a single ship come through it wont make much difference. The Normandy took out the Collector ship head on one to one it could of done so next time the Collector ship came through while waiting on the other side of the relay ship pops up in front you shoot. Surprise is better when waiting hidden behind a wall they cannot see past aka the relay. Going by the assumption the collectors needed more people to finish the job they were trying to do which is what story says are doing, it is obvious they would come back for more people and given also in story it was assumed that is only one collector ship keep seeing then thats the only likley one to come back to keep collecting. Hence the waiting hidden surprise attack when came through relay is far better. Of which then board and retieve more information before heading through the relay with "more troops".

The game makes the assumption for you that it will be a surprise if pop in through the relay but if was reailty noone would go through without more information first.

What I would do if given the choice is await the collector ship returning jump out from behind relay or near planet and surprise the ship, take it out and (then) if no more information is on the now defunct collector ship and only then would I go through first a probe then if went through ok my ship and crew, if probe was shot down I would hold back and either send through explosives or cannon fodder before sending the most important team hrough in a flying tin can alone. Because that way at least you know the one ship keep seeing wont be in the way when go through aswell as you know what you are dealing with the other end instead of flying in blind with possible same result to your own ship as the probe.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 août 2011 - 08:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
Well reasoned posts? Smudboy? No, not really. If they were well-reasoned, he wouldn't need to end up insulting everyone. It's why every time he fails at defending an argument the thread must be locked, or would have Pacifien look over the continuation of the debates he had been a part of.[/quote]

That is called flame war. After reading some of hthe replies on those trhead I can only say that I would have lost my cool too. There's only so much crap and insults one can take and remain civil.


[quote]
He's obnoxious because he:
He states hollow statements as facts with no further explanation (such as: Mass Effect 2 has no story, or x sucks, Paragons are retarded, the Hammerhead needs to go, etc)[/quote]

Wrong. He explains it with beter argumentbs that were ever abel to bring to the table in any discussion I've seen you.[/quote]

[quote]
He uses a very specific type of music (obviously) for ironic reasons.[/quote]

There's nothing obvious about it. If you want to read into someone music choice, you can do that, but to infer some malice behind it it's just stupid and mean.

[quote]
He used to randomly spam various topics with ironic comments.He maintains an ironic stance and does not accept the points of others.[/quote]

Congratulations. you jsut described 99% of BSN. Including oyu.

[Il Divo]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

 ''Send a probe''

Reaper IFF is required. Unless you want the probe to be destroyed by Oculus, and then Shepard says : ''Well, we can never go on the other side now, but at least we know there are round things that shoot laser! It was so worth risking my life a thousand times gathering these people and solving their daddy issues!''

As for mining the relay, drifts of several thousand kilometers are common. Unless TIM can produce enough ordinance to create a  sphere of explosives around the Relay of that diameter (lol), don't bother.

 Assembling a Cerberus fleet? Just ressurecting Shepard and building the Normandy apparently bled Cerberus dry, according to EDI. Plus, one ship is OK, but a whole fleet would attract some very unwanted attention if it started hanging around the relay that people who trade with the Terminus use. As for killing Aria, yeah, it's suggested she basically fought Wrex to a standstill, she brought down a powerful Krogan warlord, she rules Omega and has a legion of thugs at her beck and call (not that it stopped Shepard before, admitedly), and her intelligence is apparently good enough to counter the Shadow Broker's, at least somewhat. You can't just waltz in and headshot her.

Really, you guys are scraping the bottom of the nitpicking barrel. 

Agreed, all around. I do have to ask though: when did Aria fight Wrex? Was she the same Asari he mentions in Mass Effect?

[Bourne Endeavor]

BlahDog wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

All but the DLC team members came on without strings attached, only later did they learn about their problems.

And at that later stage is when they became a liability of which needed replacing. Which is why I pointed out the humour that all of a sudden everyone seemed to be getting this magical new information from TiM which put the mission at risk in the first place due to bringing up their pasts and putting their compentence at risk because of emotional baggage prior to which never had. Even the ones without TiM's involvment still had baggage such as Zaeed and Samara etc, which due to having baggage from the begiinning that could affect their focus I would not have brought along in first place.

What your saying is Bioware should have made a whole cast of new characters just because your team has a few problems that can be easily dealt with. I agree that your team needs to be in top mental shape but if the only thing preventing that is one simple mission then just do it and then not worry about picking out new crew members and going after them. Also you say that TIM withheld all info for all loyalty missions but the only info he had was for jacobs mission.

I believe the point Dragoonlordz is insinuating  would be that highly trained professionals like the majority of Shepard's crew would not abruptly fail at the task assigned to them because Shepard did not hold their hand through their personal qualms. Take Miranda for instance, blatantly states to Shepard at the onset of the game to "stay focused on the mission" yet when trouble arises, her daddy issues conflict with her otherwise pragmatic and stubborn to a fault logical approach? Grunt is a more comical example since he has an increased desire to kill things, which I fail to see as problematic.

What makes this particularly egregious is loyalty becomes irrelevant anyway once we begin the Suicide Mission. Miranda was never distracted by her inability to focus, she was crushed by falling debris. The Tech Expert runs into a jammed computer glitch and one can attest the hostile firefight mere feet away would cause a far greater distraction. The Fire Team leader (round one) actually succeeds, yet miraculously their personal issues causes the door to jam. There is not a single example where failure to complete their loyalty mission in a hindrance, just random misfortune.

People like to fault Zaeed's inefficient leadership skills, yet he leads the squad flawlessly, in fact, so does Grunt. The Tech Expert simply fails, which has no bearing on the capability of the Fire Team leader. In essence, it is purely a gameplay device with no proper story explanation. Not inherently a bad choice however not a grand one either. If loyalty is suppose to have relevance of some degree, then it cannot be more than mechanic.

Mesina2 wrote...

Collectors didn't had enough time to correctly aim at Normandy and Normandy was full ready at assault.

You know what really would have surprised the Collectors? If we bombed them on Horizon, or blew them away when Harbinger thought himself clever by setting a trap. I bet their aim really would have been off then.

Earlier you claim the could send Oculus through the Omega 4 to survey the region. So why not blow them up? The Normany was quite effective in this endeavor. Bull rushing the Relay is utterly asinine and completely illogical for one solid reason. No one ever did anything else first. Putting all your eggs in one basket when you have no idea what awaits on the opposite side is appalling. What if the Collectors had an entire fleet? Shepard and his badass mercenaries would have been obliterated.

The fact the Shadow Broker sent probes, which successful returned, completely undermines ME2's plot and makes TIM an utter moron. Yes they were damaged however the game illustrates that nothing has ever accomplished this feat, yet the Shadow Broker just subverted this. The intelligent approach would be to build from this measure of success and continue to scope our mission parameters, not charge ahead and hope for the best.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 28 août 2011 - 08:18 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

As opposed to sending a tin can with up to 13 people through into space which is full of laser shooting bots and possible giant collector ships as well as black holes and probably enemy stations by the dozens just as likley is CLEARLY the smart move... <_<

instead of sending a probe followed by nukes or whatever highest yeild missles have to clear the path then coming through if want after. Its better to know heading into bunch of laser bots than to head into a bunch of laser bots ignorantly.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[Il Divo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

instead of sending a probe followed by nukes or whatever highest yeild missles have to clear the path then coming through if want after. Its better to know heading into bunch of laser bots than to head into a bunch of laser bots ignorantly.

So, the plan is now to send nukes through the Omega IV relay? What would that accomplish?  You make it sound like it's as simple as firing a salvo of torpedos which will magically teleport to the other side.

[littlezack]

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

[Il Divo]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The fact the Shadow Broker sent probes, which successful returned, completely undermines ME2's plot and makes TIM an utter moron. Yes they were damaged however the game illustrates that nothing has ever accomplished this feat, yet the Shadow Broker just subverted this. The intelligent approach would be to build from this measure of success and continue to scope our mission parameters, not charge ahead and hope for the best.

Admittedly, it's been a while since I played LotSB, but I'm not sure how much the probes would be a plot hole.

Based on the explanation of the IFF's purpose in Mass Effect 2, it allows more accurate jumps to be performed through Mass Effect relays. Based on this, it is possible for something to successfully make it through the Omega IV relay, it would simply be very difficult. At the start of Mass Effect 2, TIM believes that nothing can pass through the relay (whether he tried sending probes or not). The Shadowbroker's success could be seen as mere luck. Just my opinion, anyway.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 août 2011 - 08:24 .

[Guldhun2]

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

[XyleJKH]

I really cannot believe someone really is so concerned about this. He says his opinion the same way steven hawkins does, as if its a matter of fact. I hate people like that. god I want to punch this guy in the face

[Guldhun2]

XyleJKH wrote...

I really cannot believe someone really is so concerned about this. He says his opinion the same way steven hawkins does, as if its a matter of fact. I hate people like that. god I want to punch this guy in the face

Someone makes a negative video about Mass Effect 2 and you want to punch him in the face? Get some help, you have anger problems.

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

 What purpose is served by sending a nuke through a relay, if it's even bloody possible?

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

 What purpose is served by sending a nuke through a relay, if it's even bloody possible?

Blowing up any mines that might have been there? Blowing up the oculus? Blowing up the collector base if it was really close to the relay? Just clearing any debris that might have been there? etc etc

Modifié par Guldhun2, 28 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[littlezack]

Guldhun2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

Unless the Collectors were silly enough to build their base RIGHT NEXT to the relay - which I'm not even sure is possible - just shooting nukes through the thing at random isn't likely to hit them. Nukes are relatively small thing, and their explosion area is measured in kilometers - the Collector base could be anywhere with a span of light years. Unless it just so happens to be perfectly - and I mean perfectly - lined up with the relay, firing nukes through the thing isn't likely to hit.

[Dragoonlordz]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I believe the point Dragoonlordz is insinuating  would be that highly trained professionals like the majority of Shepard's crew would not abruptly fail at the task assigned to them because Shepard did not hold their hand through their personal qualms.

Finally someone understands.

If loyalty is suppose to have relevance of some degree, then it cannot be more than mechanic.

Which is why I called them silly. I like you, you seem to understand.

Bull rushing the Relay is utterly asinine and completely illogical for one solid reason. No one ever did anything else first. Putting all your eggs in one basket when you have no idea what awaits on the opposite side is appalling. What if the Collectors had an entire fleet? Shepard and his badass mercenaries would have been obliterated.

The fact the Shadow Broker sent probes, which successful returned, completely undermines ME2's plot and makes TIM an utter moron. Yes they were damaged however the game illustrates that nothing has ever accomplished this feat, yet the Shadow Broker just subverted this. The intelligent approach would be to build from this measure of success and continue to scope our mission parameters, not charge ahead and hope for the best.

<3 Spot on imho this whole collect a team then send them through relay in one ship was the most unintelligent thing I think they could of done and thats what they did.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 août 2011 - 08:29 .

[Guldhun2]

littlezack wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

Unless the Collectors were silly enough to build their base RIGHT NEXT to the relay - which I'm not even sure is possible - just shooting nukes through the thing at random isn't likely to hit them. Nukes are relatively small thing, and their explosion area is measured in kilometers - the Collector base could be anywhere with a span of light years. Unless it just so happens to be perfectly - and I mean perfectly - lined up with the relay, firing nukes through the thing isn't likely to hit.

Does that matter? You'd rather go in blindly? If shepard and his crack team of specialists just want to commit suicide they could always fly directly into a sun.

[Dragoonlordz]

littlezack wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The nukes would probably just detonate against the debris, anyway. There's little chance they'd hit the base itself.

How do you know that? All you know is that on the other side of the omega 4 relays there might be a bunch of collectors.

Unless the Collectors were silly enough to build their base RIGHT NEXT to the relay - which I'm not even sure is possible - just shooting nukes through the thing at random isn't likely to hit them. Nukes are relatively small thing, and their explosion area is measured in kilometers - the Collector base could be anywhere with a span of light years. Unless it just so happens to be perfectly - and I mean perfectly - lined up with the relay, firing nukes through the thing isn't likely to hit.

You don't know that just like you didn't know what your ship would comes across the other side. It's better than sending the most important crew and ship through and suffering the same fate as the possible probe. Like I said it seems smarter choice to me to do what said earlier than sending your special team though blindly for no reason other than TiM told you to.

"What I would do if given the choice is await the collector ship returning jump out from behind relay or from behind planet and surprise the ship, take it out and (then) if no more information is on the now defunct collector ship and (only then) would I send first a probe of which if went through ok my ship and crew might follow but ideally cannon fodder would be sent first. If probe was shot down I would hold back and either send through explosives aka highest yield nukes or cannon fodder before sending the most important team hrough in a flying tin can alone. Because that way at least you know a) the one ship keep seeing wont be in the way when go through aswell as you know what you are dealing with the other end instead of flying in blind with possible same result to your own ship as the probe if probe is destroyed."

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Blowing up any mines that might have been there? Blowing up the oculus? Blowing up the collector base if it was really close tot the relay? Just clearing any debris that might have been there?

Right, so your plan is to send a nuclear warhead through the relay when

1) We don't even know if that's possible.

2) We believe that nothing has made it through the relay successfully, for any number of reasons (until the Collector Ship).

3) Relay drift would mean we cannot account for where the nuke would go beyond the relay.

4) We have absolutely no knowledge where beyond the relay the enemy is set up, or if the nuke would simply go hurtling into oblivion.

That's your brilliant plan for combating the Collectors? Shepard's plan needs a good amount of work. Yours is even worse. Stick to the probes.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 août 2011 - 08:32 .

[Xeranx]

iakus wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Quite odd to see people defend ME2s plot of "lets go blindly use the relay to fight an unknown enemy which could number in the billions with one ship containing 14 of the best "badasses" in the galaxy"

Yeah, the whole plot was bass ackwards.

First you find out what the challenge is

Then you recruit the squad that can get the job done.

Alternatively, you could have the squad, try sussing out their weaknesses and strengths. and try to build both up so you have more of the latter and not so much of the former (or as strong of the former).  Neither was done unfortunately.

littlezack wrote...

First off, I can't think of any reason to believe there are billions of Collectors in there. They only ever use one ship, and when they attack, there's never that many of them around.

If this is the Collector ship my questions are: What about millions?  Thousands?  Hundreds?
If this is the Collector vessel my questions are: Why not?  What about millions?  Thousands?  Hundreds?

How do you know there's only one ship?  Did you do any kind of reconnaisance in order to get that information?  Also, gameplay does not equal reality.  Just because you get a finite amount of Collectors coming for you due to gameplay and the developers not wanting to make combat tedious.......:pinched:does not mean that the number you fight is the number that's on the ship.  That's just plain ridiculous.

Going against an unknown enemy and thinking you'll come out smelling like roses is incredibly naive and incredibly (forgive me) stupid.  You don't assume that the enemy has less numbers.  You assume the enemy has more in an effort to plot out the best course of action.  Assuming less numbers means you're underestimating your enemy.  That will surely get you killed.  Assuming more numbers might slow you down, but you'll lose far less than the former.

littlezack wrote...The idea behind the suicide mission is to stop the Collectors before they can take more colonies.Sending in a small surgical team accomplishes that in a small time. Also, all these 'better solutions' you list assume that TIM has resources we're never shown or made to believe he has. There's nothing to suggest he has a fleet of ships at his disposal, that he could mobilize them and get them in front of the Omega-4 relay without someone having a big problem with that. As far as ME2 is concerned, most of his people seem to be scientists or researches, or at best specialists like Miranda - there's nothing to suggest he has a damn FLEET.

Do you think assuming that TIM has more resources than we see is better than assuming that the Collectors only have one ship and aren't carrying "billions" on the ship or the vessel (as large as it is)?

Modifié par Xeranx, 28 août 2011 - 08:32 .

[Balek-Vriege]

I find it kind of funny.  The fact that we're still debating various parts of the plot with back and fourth facts pretty much proves there's enough background information and in game to support for the way the story was written/advanced. Showing that ME2's plot isn't exactly as simple and awful as Smudboy presents it to be (one of the worst plots ever with 10 billion plot holes).  Especially now since the arguments are going deep into metagaming, gameplay, choice and what if arguments.  No longer truly about the writing/plot.

Then there's the arguments similar to the following:

-What if Neo didn't take the right pill in the Matrix!  It was obvious his world was going to become crap. Total plot fail.

-It was stupid that Luke "happened" be absent while his uncle/aunt were being killed by Stormtroopers.  Wouldn't they have waited until everyone was home?  Total plot fail.

-Why didn't that guy/group get out of the haunted house before nightfall (most common and obvious)?  He/They should have known it was haunted.  The writing was on the wall (even though the characters don't believe in ghosts and nothing bad happened until after nightfall...)!  Total plot fail.

-Frodo should have been a stronger character beause Sam overshadows him in personality.  Total plot fail.

-Why didn't the Reapers just invade after Sovereign first tried to activate the Citadel hundreds of years before Mass Effect?  Shepard's story is stupid.  Total plot fail.

Because then you wouldn't have a plot which is kind of needed for for a story.  People are going to make mistakes, assume the best, assume the worst, do stupid things, get lucky and not get luckly, just like real life.  Sure you may not like how a story may have unfolded, but others might have.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 28 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Il Divo wrote...

Right, so your plan is to send a nuclear warhead through the relay when

1) We don't even know if that's possible.

Dont know unless try.

2) We believe that nothing has made it through the relay successfully, for any number of reasons (until the Collector Ship).

Probe or your own ship with special crew on the results are the same.

3) Relay drift would mean we cannot account for where the nuke would go beyond the relay.

Send enough, it won't matter plus nukes come after probes and probes tell you whats on other side.

4) We have absolutely no knowledge where beyond the relay the enemy is set up, or if the nuke would simply go hurtling into oblivion.

Hence probe goes through first and probes tell you whats on other side.

That's your brilliant plan for combating the Collectors? Shepard's plan needs a good amount of work. Yours is even worse. Stick to the probes.

Probe > see whats on other side > nukes if something is on other side that poses a risk else no need for nukes.

Nice to see you would rather send you team through to suffer same fate as probe, you don't jump off a cliff without looking why would you fly thrugh a relay doing the same..

[Bourne Endeavor]

Il Divo wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The fact the Shadow Broker sent probes, which successful returned, completely undermines ME2's plot and makes TIM an utter moron. Yes they were damaged however the game illustrates that nothing has ever accomplished this feat, yet the Shadow Broker just subverted this. The intelligent approach would be to build from this measure of success and continue to scope our mission parameters, not charge ahead and hope for the best.

Admittedly, it's been a while since I played LotSB, but I'm not sure how much the probes would be a plot hole.

Based on the explanation of the IFF's purpose in Mass Effect 2, it allows more accurate jumps to be performed through Mass Effect relays. Based on this, it is possible for something to successfully make it through the Omega IV relay, it would simply be very difficult. At the start of Mass Effect 2, TIM believes that nothing can pass through the relay (whether he tried sending probes or not). The Shadowbroker's success could be seen as mere luck. Just my opinion, anyway.

The reason this amounts to a plot hole is because Cerberus never attempted this obvious solution. If they had then the narrative must explain the infeasibility. While you are correct in that the IFF corrects for drift, the story drives home the ideology nothing has ever returned; the most noteworthy statement being, "No ship has ever returned from doing so." If one probe successfully returned, then we need to build from this feat, sending in superior probes or look for ways to integrate the IFF into them if a copy can be created. Every outlet and plausible theory should be beaten into the ground before we charge forward for the reasons mentioned.