6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
1. It will be told. Nothing is stopping this from  happening. Whine if you want.[/quote]

I'm not whining you're just throwing some generic excuse on the table and state is as objective fact without bothering to back it up with arguments.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
2.Yes, we are going there because the collector are there. How are we going to plan a suicide mission to their base if we know nothing about the collectors.[/quote]

So, what do we Learn? and again what were our mission parameters?

Anwser?

Nothing, Horizion was completly useless and has absolutly no impact on the plot, The Collector ship and the Derelict reaper all got plot devices, but this ones got nothing.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
3.That was clearly not a plot conveniiance. If your saying the only reason it happen that way is because the writers made the plot go that way, then your forgeting this happen with any element in any story. A story can always be written anyway the writer want as long as they give a reason for it to happen.[/quote]

You're really making points here anyway, the whole collector ship mission, while being the most straightforward of all them is also the most incompetent part of the naratice this entire scene consists of the most contrived logic and ineptitude of both the Collectors, TIM and Shepard.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
4. I'm just saying it was not a mission to no where. I never said it was good writing. I hate that part of the plot more then you do.[/quote]

Bad Wring. I Said.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
5. How could any other exposition or hint be made if no details could be found about it beyond the omega relay. [/quote]

Because it's the task of a writer they should give enough expostion on complicated and important subjects within the narative, and present them in the right way.

When you have a concept that changes key parts of lore as well as having using ridculous logic like revealing that the big bad alien machine gods are building human shaped triclops terminator out of organic goo, then the narative has to be abosuluty serious about it and present it in a believable way that fits in with the story, but that didn't happen, it's just BAM there a human reaper, don't ask, don't care just shoot it up.


Also,it's a twist and theirare never any indications of a twist happening.[/quote]

That's the problem! The narative should have had some forshadowing on the subject, played around with theme of the Reapers being related to organics over the duriation of the game, but this idea was never explored, that's one of the reasons why it was bad.

[Fixers0]

didymos1120 wrote...

Saving roughly 300,000 people isn't "anything of value"?

Nope, because it has nothing to do with the plot: Stop the badguys.

Modifié par Fixers0, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Fixers0]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I love reading Fixers0's posts, they're hilarious.

I know it's shocking to see actual arguments on this boards, so yeah.

[dreman9999]

[quote]Fixers0 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
1. It will be told. Nothing is stopping this from  happening. Whine if you want.[/quote]

I'm not whining you're just throwing some generic excuse on the table and state is as objective fact without bothering to back it up with arguments.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
2.Yes, we are going there because the collector are there. How are we going to plan a suicide mission to their base if we know nothing about the collectors.[/quote]

So, what do we Learn? and again what were our mission parameters?

Anwser?

Nothing, Horizion was completly useless and has absolutly no impact on the plot, The Collector ship and the Derelict reaper all got plot devices, but this ones got nothing.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
3.That was clearly not a plot conveniiance. If your saying the only reason it happen that way is because the writers made the plot go that way, then your forgeting this happen with any element in any story. A story can always be written anyway the writer want as long as they give a reason for it to happen.[/quote]

You're really making points here anyway, the whole collector ship mission, while being the most straightforward of all them is also the most incompetent part of the naratice this entire scene consists of the most contrived logic and ineptitude of both the Collectors, TIM and Shepard.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
4. I'm just saying it was not a mission to no where. I never said it was good writing. I hate that part of the plot more then you do.[/quote]

Bad Wring. I Said.

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
5. How could any other exposition or hint be made if no details could be found about it beyond the omega relay. [/quote]

Because it's the task of a writer they should give enough expostion on complicated and important subjects within the narative, and present them in the right way.

When you have a concept that changes key parts of lore as well as having using ridculous logic like revealing that the big bad alien machine gods are building human shaped triclops terminator out of organic goo, then the narative has to be abosuluty serious about it and present it in a believable way that fits in with the story, but that didn't happen, it's just BAM there a human reaper, don't ask, don't care just shoot it up.


Also,it's a twist and theirare never any indications of a twist happening.[/quote]

That's the problem! The narative should have had some forshadowing on the subject, played around with theme of the Reapers being related to organics over the duriation of the game, but this idea was never explored, that's one of the reasons why it was bad.
[/quote]
..........................
1. And you keep on whining.
2. We got biological data off their bodies. We got a collector laser gun. We learn they are able to make husk and combine then to horrible effects. We, directly, where able to study the stasis system they used. We learned that harbinger can take control of them and power them up. We learn their battle tactics. And finally, we were able to damage their ship.
3.I notice you have no points to why it consists of
the most contrived logic and ineptitude of both the Collectors, TIM and
Shepard.  I wonder why?

4. Not contesting it....for that scene.

5.You not understanding. You want exposition but you are not understanding what the writers are trying to do with them. They were alienated for a reason. So no one can get to them. Plot wise it would make no sense for an exposition more than we got on the detail on the collector base.Why? because it would make it so that the collector are more vulnerable. They made it so that you can't get access to their data easily to make sure no one learns about them. It's a tactic. Saying they needed to have more exposition that the collector were making a reaper is like saying that in ME1, they needed more hints that Sovereign was a reaper before Virmir.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Saving roughly 300,000 people isn't "anything of value"?

Nope, because it has nothing to do with the plot: Stop the badguys.

But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

Modifié par 111987, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:59 .

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...
But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

So how did that help?

111987 wrote...
And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Why? because they are afraid of three infantryman?

111987 wrote...
Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

Were was this and how did it help us preparing for a suicide misssion?

Here's an idea, Spam your javelin torpedoes on the collect cruiser to disable it's weapons and engine, then call the Alliance.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I love reading Fixers0's posts, they're hilarious.

I know it's shocking to see actual arguments on this boards, so yeah.

Yeah because 1-10 word responses usually just saying "No, I disagree so you are wrong." or " Umm,oxygen is a ret-con."  are actual arguments.

[didymos1120]

111987 wrote...

But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

It's also what caused them to shift their focus to Shepard, the direct result of which was the Collector Ship trap, and thus it ultimately created the opportunity that confirmed the notion that navigating the Omega-4 required an IFF. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

So how did that help?

111987 wrote...
And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Why? because they are afraid of three infantryman?

111987 wrote...
Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

Were was this and how did it help us preparing for a suicide misssion?

Here's an idea, Spam your javelin torpedoes on the collect cruiser to disable it's weapons and engine, then call the Alliance.

Could you please stop disagreeing to disagree, take off the foil cap.

Everything you just said right now is just so stupid that I threw up a little.

[didymos1120]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I love reading Fixers0's posts, they're hilarious.

I know it's shocking to see actual arguments on this boards, so yeah.

Will you just cut out the "I know you are but what am I?" routine already?

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

So how did that help?

I didn't say it helped. I was just countering your point that we didn't stop the bad guys on Horizon.

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Why? because they are afraid of three infantryman?

Well, those three soldiers did quite a bit to muck up their plans on Horizon. But more because they don't know how Ceberus was able to track them, meaning they don't know if the effort can be repeated.

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

Were was this and how did it help us preparing for a suicide misssion?

Here's an idea, Spam your javelin torpedoes on the collect cruiser to disable it's weapons and engine, then call the Alliance.

Where: When they team is talking about how the Collectors use Husks.
Do I really have to explain why it's important to confirm the link between the Collectors and the Reapers? Come on man, you can solve this one on your own.

TIM wouldn't let you call the Alliance.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

111987 wrote...


TIM wouldn't let you call the Alliance.

The Alliance was there. The VS was there for the Alliance to see if Cerberus was behind the attacks.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. And you keep on whining.

And you keep being ignorant.

dreman9999 wrote...
2. We got biological data off their bodies -Optional, not integral to the plot.

We got a collector laser gun -Optional, not integral to the plot.

We learn they are able to make husk and combine then to horrible effects -not integral to the plot.

We, directly, where able to study the stasis system they used -Optional -not integral to the plot.

We learned that harbinger can take control of them and power them up-not integral to the plot.

We learn their battle tactics. -What? were was that.

And finally, we were able to damage their ship. What were you expecting? why even bother with the defense towers if you got the normandy.

dreman9999 wrote...
3.I notice you have no points to why it consists of
the most contrived logic and ineptitude of both the Collectors, TIM and
Shepard.I wonder why?

The collectors not being able to kill Shepard, just destory the shuttle, blow up part's of the ship, stun gas, turn of gravity,Ect

Shepard And TIM not realising that's it's a trap and only taking two crewmembers with him, not showing it to the Alliance, not scanning the ship and further disable it, by taking out it engine's and weapons, and why not blow it up alltogheter.

dreman9999 wrote...
5.You not understanding. You want exposition but you are not understanding what the writers are trying to do with them.

Turning the Reapers into poorly written cartoonbook villians with no depth, motivations, or complexity?

dreman9999 wrote...
They were alienated for a reason. So no one can get to them. Plot wise it would make no sense for an exposition more than we got on the detail on the collector base.Why? because it would make it so that the collector are more vulnerable. They made it so that you can't get access to their data easily to make sure no one learns about them. It's a tactic. Saying they needed to have more exposition that the collector were making a reaper is like saying that in ME1, they needed more hints that Sovereign was a reaper before Virmir.

This is just admitting to bad writing, poor presentation, retcons and plotholes. no discussion needed.

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
But you quite literally did stop the bad guys on Horizon...

So how did that help?

I didn't say it helped. I was just countering your point that we didn't stop the bad guys on Horizon.

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
And it made the Collectors more cautious about attacking colonies, meaning they probably slowed town in their abductions.

Why? because they are afraid of three infantryman?

Well, those three soldiers did quite a bit to muck up their plans on Horizon. But more because they don't know how Ceberus was able to track them, meaning they don't know if the effort can be repeated.

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...
Oh and, it confirmed the Collector/Reaper connection. Which is kind of hugely important.

Were was this and how did it help us preparing for a suicide misssion?

Here's an idea, Spam your javelin torpedoes on the collect cruiser to disable it's weapons and engine, then call the Alliance.

Where: When they team is talking about how the Collectors use Husks.
Do I really have to explain why it's important to confirm the link between the Collectors and the Reapers? Come on man, you can solve this one on your own.

TIM wouldn't let you call the Alliance.

All you're really doing here is handwaving poor storytelling by speculatining about things that we don't even know are there.

The Horizon mission i useless and has no impact on the story, nothing of consequence happens there.  

[Fixers0]

 And if anybody still has doubts about the plot quality of Mass Effect 2 or why it's bad, i hearby present the complete list of problems with Mass effect's 2 plot.

Modifié par Fixers0, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I love reading Fixers0's posts, they're hilarious.

I know it's shocking to see actual arguments on this boards, so yeah.

Yeah because 1-10 word responses usually just saying "No, I disagree so you are wrong." or " Umm,oxygen is a ret-con."  are actual arguments.

Well, you seem to constantly use such responses....are you saying you havn't been using arguments at all, all this time?

[Weskerr]

Fixers0 wrote...


Shepard And TIM not realising that's it's a trap and only taking two crewmembers with him, not showing it to the Alliance, not scanning the ship and further disable it, by taking out it engine's and weapons, and why not blow it up alltogheter.

TIM did know it was a trap. He explains to Shepard that he didn't tell him because he didn't want to tip off the Collectors in anyway that he knew it was a trap. Also, Shepard didn't blow up the Collector ship because his mission was to board it and gather intel. Shepard didn't further disable it because from his perspective it was already disabled. EDI even says that all of its systems were off.

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They were alienated for a reason. So no one can get to them. Plot wise it would make no sense for an exposition more than we got on the detail on the collector base.Why? because it would make it so that the collector are more vulnerable. They made it so that you can't get access to their data easily to make sure no one learns about them. It's a tactic. Saying they needed to have more exposition that the collector were making a reaper is like saying that in ME1, they needed more hints that Sovereign was a reaper before Virmir.

This is just admitting to bad writing, poor presentation, retcons and plotholes. no discussion needed.

How is it any of those things you mentioned?

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. And you keep on whining.

And you keep being ignorant.

dreman9999 wrote...
2. We got biological data off their bodies -Optional, not integral to the plot.

We got a collector laser gun -Optional, not integral to the plot.

We learn they are able to make husk and combine then to horrible effects -not integral to the plot.

We, directly, where able to study the stasis system they used -Optional -not integral to the plot.

We learned that harbinger can take control of them and power them up-not integral to the plot.

We learn their battle tactics. -What? were was that.

And finally, we were able to damage their ship. What were you expecting? why even bother with the defense towers if you got the Normandy.

dreman9999 wrote...
3.I notice you have no points to why it consists of
the most contrived logic and ineptitude of both the Collectors, TIM and
Shepard.I wonder why?

The collectors not being able to kill Shepard, just destroy the shuttle, blow up part's of the ship, stun gas, turn of gravity,Ect

Shepard And TIM not realising that's it's a trap and only taking two crewmembers with him, not showing it to the Alliance, not scanning the ship and further disable it, by taking out it engine's and weapons, and why not blow it up alltogheter.

dreman9999 wrote...
5.You not understanding. You want exposition but you are not understanding what the writers are trying to do with them.

Turning the Reapers into poorly written cartoonbook villians with no depth, motivations, or complexity?

dreman9999 wrote...
They were alienated for a reason. So no one can get to them. Plot wise it would make no sense for an exposition more than we got on the detail on the collector base.Why? because it would make it so that the collector are more vulnerable. They made it so that you can't get access to their data easily to make sure no one learns about them. It's a tactic. Saying they needed to have more exposition that the collector were making a reaper is like saying that in ME1, they needed more hints that Sovereign was a reaper before Virmir.

.
This is just admitting to bad writing, poor presentation, retcons and plotholes. no discussion needed.

2. It's not optional that yo get the dna. You get it regardless if you get it your self or not. You get it or a Cerberus team gets it. As for the combination of the husk. that is part of the plot. It tells you what the collectors are doing with the colonist and comferm that they are working with the reapers. As for the stasis field study, that was a dialogue scene that came up. You can't skip it. Seeing harbinger control the collectors also comferms the reapers are controlling the collectors. As for battle tactics, we learn they use husk and scions to attack directly to flush out the enemy. They flank with 3 types of enemies,common soldiers,the tougher guardians, and snipers with the particle beam. And Harbinger can take them over. Also, if they send the Normandy in, the collector ship would take it down
3. They have breather mask. ALSO, if the collector tuned off the gravity how would the collectors move. Plus, if you remember the final mission in ME1, you would know turning off the gravity would do nothing since the suit and gear  can keep Shepard to surfaces. They also want to learn more about who is helping Shepard, blowing up the ship would not help with that.
On point of course TIM and Shepard knew i was a trap but they need to get more data on the collector on the omega relay. Heck, it turn out that TIM knew the entire time which is the reason why Shepard and squad thought TIM sold them out. They took the risk to get a 1-up on the reapers. Your forget they want info on how to get& through the omega relay, how would they do that without going on the collector ship?
4.I'm sorry. You don't know that the reapers think they are making us best? And you know why the reapers are doing this?
5. And the reason it's bad writing is....? The point is they wrote the collectors as a hard to reach alien race. How would they be hard to reach if they have a base outside the omega relay? Why would they have a base outside the omega relay if the omega relay has better protection? Who would they give info on themselves to and why?
Ask yourself these questions before any the exposition is bad.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:45 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 wasn't there a lengthy debate not long ago about what a lame trap it was?

Did we make it clear it only fail because EDI was their, a reaper level AI  that the reapers didn't know or plan for?

It was still badly planned and executed. Collectors are still incompetent morons and Sheppard is also one.
What moron jsut goes board a ship like that? With just 2 people? Without taking any precautions? (like..leaving guards with the shuttle...taking out the collectors ships engines to make SURE it wasn't going anywhere..and so on.)

ME2 has plenty of plot holes, inconcistencies and downright bad writing. It's masked behind nice visuals, action and "cinmetatic" feel.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I love reading Fixers0's posts, they're hilarious.

I know it's shocking to see actual arguments on this boards, so yeah.

Yeah because 1-10 word responses usually just saying "No, I disagree so you are wrong." or " Umm,oxygen is a ret-con."  are actual arguments.

Well, you seem to constantly use such responses....are you saying you havn't been using arguments at all, all this time?

Lotion, just stop....you are doing it wrong.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
2. It's not optional that yo get the dna. You get it regardless if you get it your self or not. You get it or a Cerberus team gets it. As for the combination of the husk. that is part of the plot. It tells you what the collectors are doing with the colonist and comferm that they are working with the reapers. As for the stasis field study, that was a dialogue scene that came up. You can't skip it. Seeing harbinger control the collectors also comferms the reapers are controlling the collectors. As for battle tactics, we learn they use husk and scions to attack directly to flush out the enemy. They flank with 3 types of enemies,common soldiers,the tougher guardians, and snipers with the particle beam. And Harbinger can take them over. Also, if they send the Normandy in, the collector ship would take it down

ERm..no.

The game never really rolls with our findings. No one really mentions them. TIM doesn't comment on "collector weapons, pods"  or anything else for that matter.
It's never explained where Morodin gets the Seeker.
Reaper connection? You have no idea who Harbringer is at that point - you got nothing connecting the Collectors to the Reapers. There's nothing there to make that logical leap.

And no, Collector ship would take it down? It has a forward fixed weapon and has landed. Several guns drive it off. It couldn't take out Normandy 2 even un-upgraded. And yet now, that it's stationary and more vulnerable - a perfect target - it can?

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 wasn't there a lengthy debate not long ago about what a lame trap it was?

Did we make it clear it only fail because EDI was their, a reaper level AI  that the reapers didn't know or plan for?

It was still badly planned and executed. Collectors are still incompetent morons and Sheppard is also one.
What moron jsut goes board a ship like that? With just 2 people? Without taking any precautions? (like..leaving guards with the shuttle...taking out the collectors ships engines to make SURE it wasn't going anywhere..and so on.)

ME2 has plenty of plot holes, inconcistencies and downright bad writing. It's masked behind nice visuals, action and "cinmetatic" feel.

How would they ever know that Shepard even has an AI anywhere close to EDI level on the ship? No one use anything like EDI on any ship but Geth, who would be those AI's close to EDI. Saying that the collector should of knoe about EDI unreasonable to impossible. They would have never known. And she is reaper level......No AI is like her.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Lotion, just stop....you are doing it wrong.

I'll stop when you stop posting....maybe.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 wasn't there a lengthy debate not long ago about what a lame trap it was?

Did we make it clear it only fail because EDI was their, a reaper level AI  that the reapers didn't know or plan for?

It was still badly planned and executed. Collectors are still incompetent morons and Sheppard is also one.
What moron jsut goes board a ship like that? With just 2 people? Without taking any precautions? (like..leaving guards with the shuttle...taking out the collectors ships engines to make SURE it wasn't going anywhere..and so on.)

ME2 has plenty of plot holes, inconcistencies and downright bad writing. It's masked behind nice visuals, action and "cinmetatic" feel.

How would they ever know that Shepard even has an AI anywhere close to EDI level on the ship? No one use anything like EDI on any ship but Geth, who would be those AI's close to EDI. Saying that the collector should of knoe about EDI unreasonable to impossible. They would have never known. And she is reaper level......No AI is like her.

What does that matter? They still didnt take any sensible precautions, they still let Shep in far too deep and spring a trap in the worst possible place.

Being sure of hteir victory doesn' excuse them. That like US allowing a commando team in the core of Pentagon before sprining the trap. It's just daft. There's NO REASON not to spring the trap before. There's no reason to allow them that dep in the first place.

There's no reason for Shep to go in with just 2 peopel. There's no reason for Shep to not make sure the Collector ships really is properly disabled.

I can go on, but the point stands. All 3 parties demonstrate extreeme stupidity in the scenario.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[Halo Quea]

It gets a little harder to grasp TIM's logic in taking out the Collectors now that we can see that Cerberus actually had an army to throw at them. The question I suppose has to be asked, "Why bring Shepard into this at all?" He really didn't Shepard.

If Shepard and the Normandy crew were specifically tasked with reconnaissance against the Collectors so that Cerberus forces could launch a strike against the Collector's base (same as the Alliance Fleet charging in to take on Sovereign), then TIM's logic for bringing back a dead Council Spectre would be flawless.

TIM: Shepard I brought you back because you are the leading voice in keeping the Alliance and the Council aware of the Reaper threat. The Collectors have been abducting human colonists but without proof no one is going to believe the assertions of Cerberus. But they might listen to you.

So TIM gets the Council's #1 Spectre to do ALL of the fact finding. So even if the Alliance or the Council still doesn't trust Cerberus' word, they've got their own Spectre with tons of hard data backing up everything about the Collectors and the Reapers.

Shepard could have still had the choice to blow up the Collector base as Cerberus ships and troops attacked the Collector forces while Shepard and his squad set charges to blow it up or make the radiation pulse that would have killed only the Collectors.

It just feels like some things just weren't carefully thought out during the plot development process.