6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone mentioned something that I think most people don't know (but should):

Freezing destroys cells.

http://en.wikipedia....servation#Risks

Ice crystals cause damage to cell membranes and other cellular structures. Etc.


Bioware could have avoided all this by resisting the urge to go with big, splash, hollywoody, nonsensical "kewl" cinematics...

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Methane..a month. No brain activity. And Shep wasn't encased in arctic ice.

Brain is GONE.

Your not understanding.The brain activity would be gone. The body would be forzen before the brain decayed. Why? Becauseof the ice in the environment. The impact would turn the ice into water, the water would cover shepards body and the water would freeze in the cold. This would turn shepards body into a froozen fossil. The brain cells would not decay if its fossilized that way.

No, you don't understand. No brain activity = dead brain. It's not salvegable. You cannot reconstruct data from nothing.

Even if Sheps body was frozen (which you cannot prove it would be), Shep is still dead. This is NOT cryogenic sleeping. Freezing destroys cells, even wihout counting hte total information loss from before.

Brain memory and activity comes from neurons. If no brian activity mean death then that would mean no one could be reivied from a controled clinical death. http://en.wikipedia...._clinical_death

Controlled clinical death
Certain surgeries for cerebral aneurysms or aortic arch defects require that blood circulation be stopped while repairs are performed. This deliberate temporary induction of clinical death is called circulatory arrest. It is typically performed by lowering body temperature to +18°C (+64°F), stopping the heart, stopping the brain with drugs to conserve energy, turning off the heart lung machine, and draining blood to eliminate all blood pressure. At such low temperatures the clinically dead state can be sustained without serious brain injury for up to one hour. Longer durations are possible at lower temperatures, but the usefulness of longer procedures has not been established yet
.....
Point is that if a person is gone with lost of brain activity, then that not posible or the person would lose him memory.
Ofcours, I'm not saying Shepard had control clinical death after entry. I'm saying memeories are stored in neurons inthe brain reguardless if brain activity goes though them or not. His brain cell die but still had his memeory, and the cell did not decay due to cold preservation. This mean his memory come bedescoved if they repair and reconnect his brain cells. Normally, that would be impossible if they had now way to reasemble the atoms of the cell...But that where the reaper tech comes in. The tech that makes husk does that.....Meaning if they can reprogram that reaper tech, they could rebuild shepards brain  cells.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone mentioned something that I think most people don't know (but should):

Freezing destroys cells.

http://en.wikipedia....servation#Risks

Ice crystals cause damage to cell membranes and other cellular structures. Etc.


Bioware could have avoided all this by resisting the urge to go with big, splash, hollywoody, nonsensical "kewl" cinematics...

Only, if it's not the whole body is frozen at one. Celluar death happens but not decomposer...But their are cases that they tissue can live...
http://en.wikipedia....cts_for_cloning.

Also,it clear that would not happen with froze fossils if this is happened...
http://news.softpedi...ife-62040.shtml

Also, this....http://en.wikipedia....uropreservation

On point,that would not matter if they  used the to  tech used with husk  to revive Shepard.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'm saiying you're wrong.

Brain damage wihout activity become permanent real soon.
Even the example you cited is 1 hour..under perfect, controlled conditions.

The lengths you'd go to to defend this is phenomenal. Fanboy to hte extreeme....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm saiying you're wrong.

Brain damage wihout activity become permanent real soon.
Even the example you cited is 1 hour..under perfect, controlled conditions.

The lengths you'd go to to defend this is phenomenal. Fanboy to hte extreeme....

Perhaps he just finds it humurous to be witness to your inability to think anyone could be right but yourself.


I'm sure most people find your reverse scientific method laughable.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone mentioned something that I think most people don't know (but should):

Freezing destroys cells.

http://en.wikipedia....servation#Risks

Ice crystals cause damage to cell membranes and other cellular structures. Etc.


Bioware could have avoided all this by resisting the urge to go with big, splash, hollywoody, nonsensical "kewl" cinematics...

Ah crap, there goes the freezing theory. Also consider that Alchera's surface temperature (-22 degrees C) was nowhere near the required -196 deg. C.

BioWare should have just gone with a second escape pod in the bridge, and have Shepard merely listed as Missing, Presumed Dead. (i.e. the whole galaxy thinks Shepard's dead, but only Cerberus knows otherwise for those 2 years, etc.)

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm saiying you're wrong.

Brain damage wihout activity become permanent real soon.
Even the example you cited is 1 hour..under perfect, controlled conditions.

The lengths you'd go to to defend this is phenomenal. Fanboy to hte extreeme....

"Brain damage" or "brain injury" (BI) is the destruction or degeneration of brain cells. Brain injuries occur due to a wide range of internal and external factors. A common category with the greatest number of injuries is traumatic brain injury.
........
That's the key to the idea I'm posting...Brain damage would happen when brain matter is loss or brain cell start  cellular decay. Cold can stop cellular decay, hence why Cryonics  work.exsistshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics.....like Neurpreservation.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation

The brain avtivity is stopped but cellular decay does not happen,
This is the  same consept of controled clinical death. This mean it the brain did stop activity but did not decay, it can always be brought back. Body Decay=cellular decay. But i'm not say Shepard brain was cryopreserved the same way.... Just that cold stops his brain cells from decaying any more. His body was mummified from the cold and layer of ice he was incased in after land on the planet. Much of his brain did not decay, but he did suffer brain damage which is mute to how they brough him back. Much of his brain was preserved and brough back to cerberus and they rebuilt the brain cell by brain cell, atom by atom, with reaper tech.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:33 .

[dreman9999]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone mentioned something that I think most people don't know (but should):

Freezing destroys cells.

http://en.wikipedia....servation#Risks

Ice crystals cause damage to cell membranes and other cellular structures. Etc.


Bioware could have avoided all this by resisting the urge to go with big, splash, hollywoody, nonsensical "kewl" cinematics...

Ah crap, there goes the freezing theory. Also consider that Alchera's surface temperature (-22 degrees C) was nowhere near the required -196 deg. C.

BioWare should have just gone with a second escape pod in the bridge, and have Shepard merely listed as Missing, Presumed Dead. (i.e. the whole galaxy thinks Shepard's dead, but only Cerberus knows otherwise for those 2 years, etc.)

You forget the fact that the body can reach that degrees if it's encased in ice and Shepard fell on the dark side of the planet. The dark side of a planet is always way colder then it's average temperature. With that point the heated fall would of melted the ice in the area and turn to water. The water would of covered Shepards body and flash freezed it as it quickly frozen in the cold.
Theory still stands...

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Your spelling is horrible.

Also, does that planet have seasons? Maybe Shepard landed on the dark side during winter.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm saiying you're wrong.

Brain damage wihout activity become permanent real soon.
Even the example you cited is 1 hour..under perfect, controlled conditions.

The lengths you'd go to to defend this is phenomenal. Fanboy to hte extreeme....

An ice encased body would fully freeze way less then that time. This is call Flash freezing.


Flash freezing (or blast freezing) refers to the process in various industries whereby objects are quickly frozen by subjecting them to cryogenic temperatures.
For example, flash freezing is used in the food industry to quickly freeze perishable food items (see frozen food). In this case, food items are subjected to temperatures well below water's melting/freezing point (32°F or 0°C), causing the water inside the foods to freeze in a very short period of time without forming large crystals, thus avoiding damage to cell membranes.
Flash freezing techniques are also used to freeze biological samples fast enough that large ice crystals cannot form and damage the sample.[1] This rapid freezing is done by submerging the sample in liquid nitrogen or a mixture of dry ice and ethanol.[2]
A supercooled liquid will stay in a liquid state below the normal freezing point when it has little opportunity for nucleation; that is, if it is pure enough and has a smooth enough container. Once agitated it will rapidly become a solid.
......

This is how your food freezes in freezer.
Shepards body was flashed frozen.
 The same consept of frozen fossils..
.....
http://www.fossils-f...ils_formed.html

How are fossils formed?Freezing (refrigeration)-This is the best
means of preservation of ancient materials. It happens only rarely. The
animal must be continually frozen from the time of death until
discovery. That limits the possibilities to cold hardy animals from the
last ice age. There have been remarkable discoveries of mammoth and
wooly rhinoceros found in ice from Alaska and Siberia. Specimens with
flesh, skin, and hair intact have been found. Some of these finds
suggest that they were flash frozen, with food still in the mouth and
stomach.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Dexi]

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

[dreman9999]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Your spelling is horrible.

Also, does that planet have seasons? Maybe Shepard landed on the dark side during winter.

The planet seaosons is cold and colder. And his body did land on the dark side of the planet.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[Fixers0]

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Genre is irrelevant.


Aloso there are things like suspension of disbelief and storytelling. 

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Genre is irrelevant.


Aloso there are things like suspension of disbelief and storytelling. 

Suspension of disbelief is usually connected to sci-fi, so it is relevant.

[clipped_wolf]

Ha! I liked seeing all the nitpicking brought to light. Too bad it's getting this much attention too late to create a discussion that could have improved ME3. My biggest gripe with ME2 is the pseudo-science, Mass Effect was suppose to be sci-fi wasn't it? Not Sci-fantasy?

[Notlikeyoucare]

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Yes SCIENCE fiction. Its that "science" part people seem to forget when they refer to the genre.

[Someone With Mass]

I have yet to see a claim that Mass Effect was ever supposed to be based on hard scientific information.

They pretty much threw that one out the window when they introduced the mass relays and the Reapers.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Genre is irrelevant.


Aloso there are things like suspension of disbelief and storytelling. 

Suspension of disbelief is usually connected to sci-fi, so it is relevant.

Suspension of disbelief doesn't give the writers free reign to do whatever the hell they  want.Its the responsability of the writer to give us something to suspend our disbelief onto, we can't just have it floating in the air with nothing to keep it from slamming back down again.

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I have yet to see a claim that Mass Effect was ever supposed to be based on hard scientific information.

They pretty much threw that one out the window when they introduced the mass relays and the Reapers.

Mass relays are explained  with Mass effect fields...Reaper are bounded with that.

[Dexi]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Yes SCIENCE fiction. Its that "science" part people seem to forget when they refer to the genre.

No, you don't get it... It's science-FICTION because it's not science... 
It's like the difference between light and light-obscured. 
It's the other term that defines the first.

It changes it's meaning because it makes it another type of science: fictional. Made up. 

Made up science can revive a dead person. It's fictional... And so on. 

[Someone With Mass]

dreman9999 wrote...
Mass relays are explained  with Mass effect fields...Reaper are bounded with that.

Reducing/increasing a ship's mass without changing its physical properties is also physically impossible, but I'm willing to accept it as a part of the game. 

I really don't understand why so many people simply just can't accept that Shepard could be revived through science, since it's really not the first time that has happened in science fiction stories.

It's lightly based on science and you're not really supposed to think all that much on it. They're just giving the players explanations they see fit with some elements that are enough to get by, like the kinetic barriers, and if they don't, then they're counting on the players' suspense of disbelief to take effect.

Because if they had to explain everything new that happens within certain scientific barriers, then ME2 would probably be:
A. Still in development. 

or

B. Boring because of the scientific limitations.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Mass relays are explained  with Mass effect fields...Reaper are bounded with that.

Reducing/increasing a ship's mass without changing its physical properties is also physically impossible, but I'm willing to accept it as a part of the game. 

I really don't understand why so many people simply just can't accept that Shepard could be revived through science, since it's really not the first time that has happened in science fiction stories.

It's lightly based on science and you're not really supposed to think all that much on it. They're just giving the players explanations they see fit with some elements that are enough to get by, like the kinetic barriers, and if they don't, then they're counting on the players' suspense of disbelief to take effect.

Because if they had to explain everything new that happens within certain scientific barriers, then ME2 would probably be:
A. Still in development. 

or

B. Boring because of the scientific limitations.

The argument isn't that they couldn't explain it. its that they didn't even try. All thats ever said is: 4 billion credits, time, and resources. That isn't an answer. If Shepard was resurrected through fictional scientific means, well they should have explained what those means were, and how it reverts the impossible.

[Someone With Mass]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

The argument isn't that they couldn't explain it. its that they didn't even try. All thats ever said is: 4 billion credits, time, and resources. That isn't an answer. If Shepard was resurrected through fictional scientific means, well they should have explained what those means were, and how it reverts the impossible.

Well, they didn't. They expected the player to simply accept that it was possible.

If not...too bad.

Hey, do you know what's also scientifically impossible to do by today's standards? Nano-machines.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Dexi wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Dexi wrote...

You're arguing science on a science-FICTION game LOL!

Yes SCIENCE fiction. Its that "science" part people seem to forget when they refer to the genre.

No, you don't get it... It's science-FICTION because it's not science... 
It's like the difference between light and light-obscured. 
It's the other term that defines the first.

It changes it's meaning because it makes it another type of science: fictional. Made up. 

Made up science can revive a dead person. It's fictional... And so on. 

Yes but it does not automatically negate what is scientifically fact. The Shepards resurrection argument its that its impossible, and we aren't  told how it IS possible. In order for science to be fictional it must also adress real science properly and not leave the audience second guessing.

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I really don't understand why so many people simply just can't accept that Shepard could be revived through science, since it's really not the first time that has happened in science fiction stories.

Because it breaks the suspension of disbelief, dead people don't just start walking again, it goes against all logic.

The subject of protagnist dead should not be taken lightly in a story, all we get in this game is that they said they brought him back through science, without proving any further exposition or reasoning this is cald a handwave.


Also read this.

''In Regards to me using science or others trying to explain how things work with math, that's done because of the poor storytelling or the poor exposition of the fiction which happens to be science.
There is nothing stopping a writer explaining their fictional universe by fictional means the writer has to show or tell the audiance in the right way. Content is not as important as context, which is how you tell the story, meaning the details of science-fiction isn't as important how it is presented.
If it's not presented right, then we have to fallback on trying to make sense of what's going on, why characters are behaving a certain way, and why scenes are unfolding the way they are.
We use science, logic, math or even the codex because those particular kinds of issues are raised, not necessarily because they are about sciece, logic or math.