6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Sgt Stryker]

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because YouTube and BioWare can survive without him.

Yes but it is good to have a voice of reason between all these biased fanboy's

Never thought I would say this to you, but I agree wholeheartedly.

[100k]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

"The ship turned into a planet."
"The catapillar turned into a butterfly." 

"A car turned into a parking lot".

[111987]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because YouTube and BioWare can survive without him.

Yes but it is good to have a voice of reason between all these biased fanboy's

Never thought I would say this to you, but I agree wholeheartedly.

Biased fanboys?

First of all, everyone is biased, so the people arguing against ME2's story are just as biased.

Second of all...the people delving this deep into the story to find problems with it are the ones who obviously have a much higher emotional investment in the series than the people defending the (often ridiculous) issues raised.

[Sgt Stryker]

 ^ Actually, that's why I agree with him for once. This thread is what happens when BioWare fanboys collide with Smudboy fanboys. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

100k wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

"The ship turned into a planet."
"The catapillar turned into a butterfly." 

"A car turned into a parking lot".

Yes, I get it.  The point is that Dremen is so clueless that he didn't get the other one after half a dozen tries and a couple of big hints that I was joking.  It's a giant clue that there's something wrong on that end.

[Xeranx]

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because YouTube and BioWare can survive without him.

Yes but it is good to have a voice of reason between all these biased fanboy's

Never thought I would say this to you, but I agree wholeheartedly.

Biased fanboys?

First of all, everyone is biased, so the people arguing against ME2's story are just as biased.

Second of all...the people delving this deep into the story to find problems with it are the ones who obviously have a much higher emotional investment in the series than the people defending the (often ridiculous) issues raised.

One, I wouldn't say that they're trying to find problems.  This is the proverbial pulling of a wayward thread where things start to unravel in front of you.  When things start to not add up for someone they start to be more critical.  That goes for anything and everything for everyone.

Two, it is my belief that anyone who finds such problems and makes attempts to talk about it shows that they want more out of what they're talking about.  To carry on when you don't care is ridiculous and it will be seen as such sooner rather than later.  Honestly, I don't care if someone else calls it whining because much like villains and heroes, one person's whine fest is another's good point.

[Arkitekt]

Fixers0 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

advising Bioware to look to Smudboy's videos is like advising someone to eat ****.

Please eleborate,

Arkitekt wrote...
No one who has an interest to build something interesting should listen to Smudboy's videos.

Except for if you wan't to make a proper RPG.

Arkitekt wrote...
Only people who want to waste time. And sometimes I do.

By your logic, every review is a waste of time, if somebody analysis the plot of the game and is being critical about how it was handled, then nothing is stopping him from voicing that critism.

Anyone with half a neuron understood what I said, but you clearly did not. You really don't need Smud's videos to "make a proper RPG", and not every review is a "waste of time", for instance see Plinkett's brilliant reviews (he has some reviews that are almost longer than the movies themselves, like the star wars ones, and still are not a waste of time).

And there's a good contrast. Plinkett smashes SW prequels to pieces and leaves the movies KOed, but he's no annoying nitpicker, master of irrelevance and ridiculous arguments like Smudboy. When a movie is entertaining and "good", he's not going to get fussed at the details. He points at them, but generally explains why he likes the movie. See his review of Star Trek. (Star Trek is amazingly filled with gross plot holes, ridiculous sci fi ideas, etc. Doesn't matter, still a damned good movie). Smudboy is incapable of nothing but complaining. ME2 is, in comparison with a lot of other movies and games, very little annoying with plot holes, etc., but because it fails to be absolutely perfect, we have Smudboy et al doing hours of videos nitpicking every small detail.

And you call that not a waste of time, you even say that his analysis is "required" to make a "proper RPG"? **** yeah, let's all make a Smudboy inspired game and BORE OURSELVES TO DEATH.

[111987]

Xeranx wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because YouTube and BioWare can survive without him.

Yes but it is good to have a voice of reason between all these biased fanboy's

Never thought I would say this to you, but I agree wholeheartedly.

Biased fanboys?

First of all, everyone is biased, so the people arguing against ME2's story are just as biased.

Second of all...the people delving this deep into the story to find problems with it are the ones who obviously have a much higher emotional investment in the series than the people defending the (often ridiculous) issues raised.

One, I wouldn't say that they're trying to find problems.  This is the proverbial pulling of a wayward thread where things start to unravel in front of you.  When things start to not add up for someone they start to be more critical.  That goes for anything and everything for everyone.

Two, it is my belief that anyone who finds such problems and makes attempts to talk about it shows that they want more out of what they're talking about.  To carry on when you don't care is ridiculous and it will be seen as such sooner rather than later.  Honestly, I don't care if someone else calls it whining because much like villains and heroes, one person's whine fest is another's good point.

I didn't mean all complaints where just whining. I said many of the points debate were ridiculous examples of nit-picking (i.e. can kinetic barriers deflect debris; that was like a 20-30 page discussion when the Codex clearly stated it was possible), but oftentimes the criticism is warranted. Recall that I said the people digging for problems were more emotionally invested in the game; that wasn't a positive or negative judgement, just my opinion.

[Someone With Mass]

Arkitekt wrote...

Anyone with half a neuron understood what I said, but you clearly did not. You really don't need Smud's videos to "make a proper RPG", and not every review is a "waste of time", for instance see Plinkett's brilliant reviews (he has some reviews that are almost longer than the movies themselves, like the star wars ones, and still are not a waste of time).

And there's a good contrast. Plinkett smashes SW prequels to pieces and leaves the movies KOed, but he's no annoying nitpicker, master of irrelevance and ridiculous arguments like Smudboy. When a movie is entertaining and "good", he's not going to get fussed at the details. He points at them, but generally explains why he likes the movie. See his review of Star Trek. (Star Trek is amazingly filled with gross plot holes, ridiculous sci fi ideas, etc. Doesn't matter, still a damned good movie). Smudboy is incapable of nothing but complaining. ME2 is, in comparison with a lot of other movies and games, very little annoying with plot holes, etc., but because it fails to be absolutely perfect, we have Smudboy et al doing hours of videos nitpicking every small detail.

And you call that not a waste of time, you even say that his analysis is "required" to make a "proper RPG"? **** yeah, let's all make a Smudboy inspired game and BORE OURSELVES TO DEATH.

Sometimes, you just need a strong contrast to keep the review from falling into Nitpick Central. Sure, some minor details are sometimes good to focus on if many people have had problems with them.

To complain about every single detail in the game/movie? Make me a list instead.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I find myself stuck in the middle,

For example, it's not impossible that Shep's body survived the fall from orbit intact -- just unlikely.
It is impossible on a practical level that Shep's personality and memory were recoverable based on what we saw and were told about the condition of Shep's body and what it went through. And the whole issue could have been dodged if they'd be less wrapped up in being cinematic and AWESOME!!!!


The watchword needs to be Verisimilitude -- the appearance or semblance of truth or reality; quality of seeming true

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:11 .

[onelifecrisis]

It's ironic that some people are nitpicking at Smudboy's tendency to nitpick. This is presumably an attempt to divert attention away from the fact that Smudboy also spends a lot of time analysing massive, in-your-face plot flaws and how they could have been improved.

I for one certainly didn't come at ME2 "trying to find problems"; the problems were just there, on my first playthrough, in my face and plain as day. In a game that's 50% story it's kinda hard to keep going as you watch the plot dig it's own grave. It's hard to relate to characters who have no apparent motivations for their actions, and plenty of motivation for actions that are conspicuously absent. If the game was 95% shooting stuff then I wouldn't really care, but BW were ostensibly trying to tell a story here.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:10 .

[Arkitekt]

Smudboy's nitpicking isn't a detail, it's his overall technique. What a facepalm, onelifecrisis.

His character videos are better than the overall plot ones, but to say that all his nitpickings were "just there" "on my face"... wow. You really have some trouble suspending your disbelief.

[KotorEffect3]

I hope nobody drop's smugboy's name in a thread title in a long time, this monster is on pace to hit 200 pages.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Smudboy's nitpicking isn't a detail, it's his overall technique. What a facepalm, onelifecrisis.

His character videos are better than the overall plot ones, but to say that all his nitpickings were "just there" "on my face"... wow. You really have some trouble suspending your disbelief.

Well, as I've said before, it's one thing to suspend your disbelief; it's another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead. 

"Suspension of disbelief" doesn't mean accepting whatever is presented while turning off your better judgement and capacity for critical thinking. 

The original onus of suspension of disbelief was as much on the writer as on the reader, to present the fantastic elements in a way that allowed them to be believed, with conherence and internal consistency and sense, with verisimilitude. 

It is only more recently that it has come to be used as a lazy deflection of criticism. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[onelifecrisis]

Arkitekt wrote...

You really have some trouble suspending your disbelief.

Perhaps you have a point. I like my fiction coherent. If you can suspend your disbelief regardless then I envy you.

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy, the difference between us is not to accept that these details exist, but of their importance. Smudboy sees a small detail that isn't crystal clear and calls ME2 "bad". Critical thinking is very good to have, specially the thinking that says something in the order of "this is just a cool game with a cool story, let's set our expectations accordingly".

[Arkitekt]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

You really have some trouble suspending your disbelief.

Perhaps you have a point. I like my fiction coherent. If you can suspend your disbelief regardless then I envy you.

Look it happens to me all the time. I'm watching some sci fi and I'm all like "ok this is impossible but rule of cool" every five minutes. And when rule of cool is not enough, I just pretend it is and move on. If I were unable to do so, I couldn't enjoy any science fic movie I've ever seen (with the possible exception of Space Odissey).

I mean, take for instance Descent Freespace 2. This game is, IMHO, the best space sim war game ever made, period. It's a classic with an amazing story (very alike to Mass Effect in a way, btw) and a brilliant atmosphere. It has impossible and incoherent physics all through the game. Some node links (equivalent to mass relays) are incoherent. There are plot holes. Etc. Had Smudboy analysed it, he would have trashed it to smithereens. And I'd tell him to take a hike coz that was just the best game ever.

[Killjoy Cutter]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I hope nobody drop's smugboy's name in a thread title in a long time, this monster is on pace to hit 200 pages.

And at least two of those pages will be your posts complaining about how many pages it has.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Me, I loath the "rule of cool".

[Xeranx]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I hope nobody drop's smugboy's name in a thread title in a long time, this monster is on pace to hit 200 pages.

And at least two of those pages will be your posts complaining about how many pages it has.

Like moths to a flame. 

[Phaelducan]

"And I'd tell him to take a hike coz that was just the best game ever."

The very definition of feeding a troll. Don't talk to or about Smudboy and he goes away.... not forever, but for awhile.

[Arkitekt]

I like talking about him. It's like talking about a disease. This case, a mental one.

(Oh I jest, I'm just bored)

[onelifecrisis]

Ah, the Rule of Cool: the notion that consumers should auto lobotomise before enjoying modern media. Ignorance is bliss? Er, no, it isn't.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:40 .

[Phaelducan]

Right, so because there isn't actually The Force then Star Wars sucks?

Sound logic.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

So why did you referenced them then? To troll your audience? What do you even mean by "ressurection technology"? People wake up from comas they've had for twenty years. Was that also "ressurection technology"? Unless you know what exactly was the procedure that cured Shepard, why do you keep making **** up? I'm beggining to think it's beyond your own will, it's an itch that you have.

By ressurection technology I mean exactly that:  A Cure for Death.  The ability to bring dead people back to life.  A coma is not death.  It may not be life that can sustain itself on its own, but it is still life.  

Now, I'd like to believe that Shepard was "only mostly dead".  If there was still a spark of life in him that modern medicine could work with, I'd have been much happier.  It would make the whole process much much easier to swallow.  But Bioware bent over backwards making it clear that Shepard was dead and gone.  

Shepard was caught in an explosion which, while not instantly fatal, caused burns and internal injuries as noted by Miranda

In that explosion, Shepard's suit was ruptured, causing him to suffucate and probably explains the vacuum exposure also noted by Miranda

Next Shep got smacked by a planet.  People may debate factors such as gravity, atmosphere, speeds, but the fact is, Shepard hit a planet.  From space.  Anything else is just details 

He then lay there untreated for days if not weeks, causing the damage from prolonged exposure to subzero temperatures also noted by Miranda

There are other details that one could debate, but I think we can agree on these factors at least.

Finally, Casey Hudson himself says about the Collector attack "You see Commander Shepard dying"  (about 3:35)  

We are not talking about degrees of death.  We are talking about death. At no point did Bioware try to sugarcoat it save as some sort of running gag about how "I got better"  Shepard died.  Painfully and thoroughly.  I am not making this up.  Even the very name of the project is named after a man in the Bible who was brought back to life after being dead and buried for days. (ME2 sure likes its biblical references)
 

You need wrong ideas but transmitted with confidence so that you may approve. You need that correct ideas that you find impossible to believe not to be transmitted at all so that you may approve. And all in the name of "realism", that must be the punch line, I'm sure.

I need science fiction ideas transmitted in a manner consistent with the world I am currently inhabiting.  The term isn't "realism" it's "verisimilitude"  

It's amazing the things you "know" just because you .... ahhh.... you know! I love the way you pound on the table, as if it brings some strenght to your position at all. You know nothing at all about what happened to Shepard, and you are already making pronounciations about his metaphysical encounter with his relatives and creator(s) (before you tell me it was a joke, I assure you I got it perfectly).

I know what the game told me:  Shepard died.  The opening segments tell me that.  Wilson and Miranda's logs tell me that.  Jacob, Miranda and the Illusive man tell me that.  Shepard himself says so, though he's only repeating what others had already told him.  Casey Hudson himself says so (though if anyone can link an interview or tweet that says otherwise I'll happily retract that statement)  I see no wiggle room here.  Shepard was not unconcious or in a coma.  He was dead.  I wish it were not so, but it's true.  Show me something in the game that says Shepard was not a slab of meat on a table and I'll happily reevaluate my conclusions

There are multiple definitions of being "dead". Some peculiar ones are still possible to retrieve to "non-dead status". Clearly Shepard was in one of those. This is utterly uncontroversial and simple to explain, were it not for the amazing stubburness of yourself and some others who are adamant to prove themselves right by saying inane things like "BuT SHEpard's DEAD!!" what a facepalm.

If it was so simple to explain, they probably should have explained it, huh?  Becuase to poor unscientific laymen like me, there's alive, and there's dead.  And the only "in-between places" are strange dream sequences involving aliens asking you if you have anything worth living for.  

I mean, they took the time to explain QEDs and why they're not more common in the ME universe, and that's pure sf.  And on the other end of the spectrum, they explain Vrolik's Syndrome, which is an actual condition.  Surely the Lazarus Project could have met somewhere in the middle?

Modifié par iakus, 18 septembre 2011 - 12:21 .