6494 réponses à ce sujet

[littlezack]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

TIM not telling Shepard everything he knows? No way...that sounds fake.

Don't know but the plot is about shepard finding a way into the omega 4 relay. Knowing that TIM send probes in is kinda important. But don't let that stop you from making **** up.

How does Shepard knowing that the probes didn't work help Shepard? And TIM keeps important information from Shepard all the time. He didn't even let Shepard know he was walking straight into a trap.

[Guldhun2]

Savber100 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Smudboy's name gets dropped in a thread title and the next day that thread has 18 pages, this has to only fuel his ego.

He's the equivalent of the Turian Councillor from ME (for me anyways).

He loads his criticism with just enough hyperbole and arrogance to irritate but wraps it around with just enough truth to avoid from being seen as totally ignorant and stupid. <_<

All that, without pointing out ANY points he got wrong. But i guess attacking the person is easier than coming up with proof he's wrong.

[VaultingFrog]

So ummm, again why should anybody care about one persons opinion on a game when it is clearly biased (as any opinion would be)?

[Sgt Stryker]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The remainder of your post is not supported by the codex or any exposition throughout the game. We can make speculations to our leisure however without sufficient narration from the plot, it amounts to a hand wave; questions arose from scene one that were never addressed in scene two, Shepard was simply ready to go. Your example support the hand wave notion.

Yes. In the "remainder of my post" I was describing some of the fan-invented scenarios that I've read in the past here. The reason these scenarios even exist in people's minds is because the writers should have provided more exposition on the events of Shepard's death and resurrection. 

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
It isn't the responsibility of the player to fill in gaps like this, that would be the writer's job. If I kill a character in my story, I have to establish how they could be logically resurrected, and if by fictitious means, then I must demonstrate for the reader how this was feasible. In ME2's case, Walters must explain how Shepard's body was recoverable or how her brain was salvaged. Not doing so equates to poor writing. We, the player/reader should not be required to do Walters' job.

I agree completely.

[Les_Carver]

I agree with what some guys here have said, Smudboy says some things that are okay and valid and some that are just

Modifié par Les_Carver, 28 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

How is that important?

"Hey, Shepard. We sent probes through that thing, but they never came back."

That gives us exactly nothing new. We already knew that nothing comes back through the relay, which is why we're trying to find a way to make it there intact. I don't think the probes could make it through the debris fields and pass the Oculi in one piece.

[littlezack]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Smudboy's name gets dropped in a thread title and the next day that thread has 18 pages, this has to only fuel his ego.

He's the equivalent of the Turian Councillor from ME (for me anyways).

He loads his criticism with just enough hyperbole and arrogance to irritate but wraps it around with just enough truth to avoid from being seen as totally ignorant and stupid. <_<

All that, without pointing out ANY points he got wrong. But i guess attacking the person is easier than coming up with proof he's wrong.

There is no proof, because he's not stating facts. He doesn't like the plot for the game, and he lists reasons why, and he's more than entitled to feel the way he feels, but that doesn't mean he can 'prove' Mass Effect has a bad plot. Just one that he doesn't care for.

[Balek-Vriege]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Smudboy's name gets dropped in a thread title and the next day that thread has 18 pages, this has to only fuel his ego.

He's the equivalent of the Turian Councillor from ME (for me anyways).

He loads his criticism with just enough hyperbole and arrogance to irritate but wraps it around with just enough truth to avoid from being seen as totally ignorant and stupid. <_<

All that, without pointing out ANY points he got wrong. But i guess attacking the person is easier than coming up with proof he's wrong.

There's plenty of points made against his points in this thread alone.  However, I personally like it when each person who comments gives an example supporting their argument at some point or another (especially with a strong statement).  Doesn't mean it's neccessary though when the thread has advanced to this amount of pages.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 28 août 2011 - 10:45 .

[Dragoonlordz]

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

[littlezack]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

And you'd stop coming here.

[Balek-Vriege]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

Yes, they would be.

But it will never happen.

[Dragoonlordz]

littlezack wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

And you'd stop coming here.

Nope.

[ABCoLD]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

If it makes you feel better, I agree with this statement.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

They're not "trapped" in Dark Space as evident by the them flying back in ME3.  That was assumption made by Vigil.  They prefer to do their Citadel/Mass Relay alpha strike because it works.

The second point about Shepard's body can be argued based upon Planet density, atmosphere makeup and gravitational pull.  This is the argument that I think is closest to a plot hole.  You need Shepard's brain intact for his memories and personality.  But it's only one so far.

If you wish to be technical, no they are not 'trapped' per se however your example was, "Why don't they just invade the Citadel?!" My response remains correct, they cannot "just invade." They must embark on the long travel through Dark Space to the Milky Way.

We witness Shepard begin to accelerate upon the closing of the Normandy's destruction sequence. The surface gravity is less than a quarter different than Earth. With nothing to break Shepard's fall, she will plummet tens of thousands of feet onto ice and rock at close to mach speed. There would be no brain left to recover, however if by some miracle there was; maybe she bounced off a cloud. Her body would be exposed to subzero temperature; open wounds even. The fact her helmet was knocked off at some point only further displays the subsequent scene is impossible. Regardless, the game does nothing to explain how Shepard was reconstructed, and therefore is a hand wave.

It was stated previously in game that Cerberus had done recons of disappearing colonies.  Mordin or Jacob, can't remember, says Cerberus scouts picked up one the bugs from one of those recons.  Explained ingame and therefore, not a plot hole.  If you didn't like the explaination which isn't implausible, it's a part of the plot you didn't like.

Find me that quote via youtube, a codex entry or hell tell me the exact portion of the game this supposed dialogue takes place where Jacob or Mordin specifically state they found a seeker bug. You would be the first in nearly two years to have ever found this piece of dialogue. People have debated this for that length and this has never been brought up. So until you provide unequivocal proof, I am going to call you out on it. Do so, and I'll happily concede.

What did Kaidan/Ashley actually witness for starters. That governs whether they think you're fighting against the Collectors or working with them. Second you do just appear out of nowhere working for Cerberus which from Mass Effect 1, were pretty evil in their eyes especially for Kaidan. It's also suspicious until you tell them you were dead (not sure how I would react tell you the truth especially if I was pre-pissed like Kaidan/Ash are ).

On one hand why can't they not believe you? However, if Cerberus brought you back to life, they could have brainwashed you too.

It's not a Retcon for Kaidan to be upset since he's a human being, not a computer (not the first time he gets upset like that if you romance him/Liara in ME1). It's not like they made him an angry self absorbed guy with an english accent. He was angry at Shepard.

It could be a bad piece of writing, but it's not a plot hole. It's part of the plot you didn't like. Kaidan/Ash had a lot of built up emotions and let them explode on Shepard (like explained in the letters if you romanced them).

They witness an alien species abducting humans and know Shepard saved them. Wait... Ashley/Kaidan might believe Shepard is working for the Collectors, and by extension the reapers? I hope to god that is not the case, otherwise they are dumber than I originally thought. Correct, you do appear from nowhere, yet the moment Cerberus is name dropped they refuse to listen to any reason even if Garrus is there. They mission was even to gather intel. on Cerberus, yet they are so preoccupied whining they refuse the offer Shepard extends to do exactly that. 

I would assume you might give your former lover ten minutes of your time and not rant about they're a traitor to the Alliance.

Alright, they brainwash Shepard, then why would Cerberus send her to fight the Collectors? That equates to attacking themselves. Likewise, why would Cerberus care about Ashley/Kaidan surviving? The Alliance and Council were doing nothing about the Collectors. There was no reason whatsoever for Cerberus to expose themselves if they were working with the Collectors.

I never claimed Kaidan's anger was a retcon, his stupidity is. Ashley/Kaidan are allowed to be irrational, disagree with Cerberus and refuse to join Shepard, frankly I prefer they don't since not everyone ought to drop everything just because Shep rolls in. The retcon derives from the horrendous leap of logic that amounts to mind numbing incompetence. Ashley/Kaidan were never morons before ME2, they are now.

Just for clarification, I called this a retcon, which is when an existing fact is altered. Ashley/Kaidan exhibits this when they completely disregard Shepard, knowing full well of the reaper threat and act like idiots. It becomes hilarious moments thereafter since the indirectly acknowledge their own idiocy by sending Shepard an apology email subverting everything they said and admitting it was wrong. Built up emotion is not an excuse for people to make their leaps of logic. That is unbridled stupidity, nothing more.

Are you suggesting Smudboy's many examples of plot holes and bad writing didn't alter or ignore any plot points in game to make his arguments easier to make? That was what I was trying to show and it's already been shown on this thread to be the case. You made your case much better than his form of argument if you ask me.

Not entirely, it has been some time since I last watched his analysis. His one against Squee through defends his points quite well. My only qualm with Smudboy is he nitpicks trivial things, such as "Pure Krogan." Granted, perhaps at this junction I am guilt of nitpicks here and there. They tend to crop up when you analysis the plot of anything to this extent. Regardless, I appreciate the compliment.

[Dragoonlordz]

ABCoLD wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If people would just agree with me on everything these threads would be quite nice, tidy and short.

If it makes you feel better, I agree with this statement.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The remainder of your post is not supported by the codex or any exposition throughout the game. We can make speculations to our leisure however without sufficient narration from the plot, it amounts to a hand wave; questions arose from scene one that were never addressed in scene two, Shepard was simply ready to go. Your example support the hand wave notion.

Yes. In the "remainder of my post" I was describing some of the fan-invented scenarios that I've read in the past here. The reason these scenarios even exist in people's minds is because the writers should have provided more exposition on the events of Shepard's death and resurrection. 

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
It isn't the responsibility of the player to fill in gaps like this, that would be the writer's job. If I kill a character in my story, I have to establish how they could be logically resurrected, and if by fictitious means, then I must demonstrate for the reader how this was feasible. In ME2's case, Walters must explain how Shepard's body was recoverable or how her brain was salvaged. Not doing so equates to poor writing. We, the player/reader should not be required to do Walters' job.

I agree completely.

My apologies then, I misunderstood and thought you were disagreeing that the scene lacked exposition.

littlezack wrote...

Maybe he tried and it just didn't come back. Why would he bring that up?

So TIM never tried again? It obviously worked for the Shadow Broker, so there Cerberus is just inept. TIM does not have to bring it up, Shepard can. The fact remains this needs to be addressed in some context because sending probes is the most simplistic solution. A plot hole derives when an easier avenue is not taken and no exposition on why is provided.

Guldhun2 wrote...

Oh lord...Bourne Endeavor don't bother.

Haha, I had to give it one more shot before I have to pop back to real life. Sigh, debates must wait. 

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

How is that important?

"Hey, Shepard. We sent probes through that thing, but they never came back."

That gives us exactly nothing new. We already knew that nothing comes back through the relay, which is why we're trying to find a way to make it there intact. I don't think the probes could make it through the debris fields and pass the Oculi in one piece.

It tells us that TIM is still doing something.  That Cerberus is researching a way to get something through and back again, and that there is in fact a point to Shepard recruiting a team before there's even a way to get to the objective let alone learning what the objective is.

[Someone With Mass]

iakus wrote...

It tells us that TIM is still doing something.  That Cerberus is researching a way to get something through and back again, and that there is in fact a point to Shepard recruiting a team before there's even a way to get to the objective let alone learning what the objective is.

And they did find a way. The Reaper IFF. There's really no point in telling Shepard about their experiments unless they're affecting his/her work.

Just because we're not told about it, doesn't mean it's not happening, you know?

[Balek-Vriege]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

It was stated previously in game that Cerberus had done recons of disappearing colonies.  Mordin or Jacob, can't remember, says Cerberus scouts picked up one the bugs from one of those recons.  Explained ingame and therefore, not a plot hole.  If you didn't like the explaination which isn't implausible, it's a part of the plot you didn't like.

Find me that quote via youtube, a codex entry or hell tell me the exact portion of the game this supposed dialogue takes place where Jacob or Mordin specifically state they found a seeker bug. You would be the first in nearly two years to have ever found this piece of dialogue. People have debated this for that length and this has never been brought up. So until you provide unequivocal proof, I am going to call you out on it. Do so, and I'll happily concede.

Did what you asked.  Had to go through a full playthrough video postings to get a good feeling of the events around "the bug."


Anyways here's the highlights:



9:40ish is a good place to start.  Mordin starts rambling about how the collectors could have kidnapped so many people.  Shepard paragon interrupts and explains:

"You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the Colonies.  I'd like you to analyse them and figure out how the Collectors did this."

Never seen what happens when Mordin is not paragon interrupted.

Then some mordin dialogue:



7:50ish
"I just need nee more samples.  More Collector data, tissue samples. Anything you can get, I can use.  Find new tech."

Suggesting they have organic collector tissue among other things.  To be fair  It doesn't refer to a seeker bug specifically, but it does show that Cerberus collected varying amounts of samples from the colonies.  Some of it organic.

It doesn't need to say "we found a seeker bug on x planet," because the importance of the bug is only known to the player ahead of time (if we played through game already, thus metagaming).   The samples collected could have easily included a seeker bug and doesn't have to be explained completely in great detail.  The fact is there's supporting evidence of how they obtained collector tech and samples in the game with dialogue.  Imagine if the writers explained every little detail about every small aspect of the game, it would be pretty convuluted wouldn't it?  Not a plot hole.

Edit:  Example:

*Mordin rambles*

*Paragon interrupt*


Shepard:
"You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the Colonies.  I'd like you to analyse them and figure out how the Collectors did this.  Some of the samples are dead Collector bodies, which were found in a sewer which must have been left behind in the attack because the Collectors couldn't find them.  We made them into a Collector Armor which I will allow you to borrow from time to time.  We also found this bug, which seems like it will be really important to your research later.  So make sure you focus on it a lot.  Not sure how they forgot this one.  Must have been caught in a small room so our Cerberus agents could find it.  He was a pesky one and hard to catch, but they got him."

Mordin:
"Get it Shepard.  Many samples.  Focus on important seeker bug."

Player:
"Get on with it!"

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 29 août 2011 - 12:23 .

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just because we're not told about it, doesn't mean it's not happening, you know?

Actually, as far as storytelling goes, yeah, it does.

If they don't tell us at some point "Cerberus has been trying to find a way through the Omega IV Relay" then Cerberus has not been trying to find a way through the Omega IV Relay.

If they don't tell us that Cerberus found the remains of a Seeker drone, then Cerberus did not find the remains of a Seeker drone, and we've got a bit of a plot continuity problem.

If EDI doesn't tell us the Collector ship is a trap, then Shepard just had a run a really bad luck there.

If TIM doesn't confirm to Shepard that he spread rumors that Shepard's working for Cerberus, then the confrontation with the VS is even more weird and awkard than it already was.

Its little details like thhis that make a story come alive, and not just an excuse to shoot things.

[Iakus]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Did what you asked.  Had to go through a full playthrough video postings to get a good feeling of the events around "the bug."


Anyways here's the highlights:



9:40ish is a good place to start.  Mordin starts rambling about how the collectors could have kidnapped so many people.  Shepard paragon interrupts and explains:

"You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the Colonies.  I'd like you to analyse them and figure out how the Collectors did this."

Never seen what happens when Mordin is not paragon interrupted.

Then mordin dialogue after supporting samples were collected:



7:50ish
"I just need nee more samples.  More Collector data, tissue samples. Anything you can get, I can use.  Find new tech."

Suggesting they have organic collector tissue among other things.  To be fair  It doesn't refer to a seeker bug specifically, but it does show that Cerberus collected varying amounts of samples from the colonies.  Some of it organic.

It doesn't need to say "we found a seeker bug on x planet," because the importance of the bug is only known to the player ahead of time (if we played through game already, thus metagaming).   The samples collected could have easily included a seeker bug and doesn't have to be explained completely in great detail.  The fact is there's supporting evidence of how they obtained collector tech and samples in the game with dialogue.  Imagine if the writers explained every little detail about every small aspect of the game, it would be pretty convuluted wouldn't it?  Not a plot hole.

Hmm, that's funny:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkKWCFppRx8

9:45 or so:

Shepard:  What did you find at the other colonies?

Jacob:  Nothing.  No signs of attack.  No corpses.  Not even a trace of unusual genetic material to give us a clue.

[Rockworm503]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Ok we get it your sucking Smudboys dick.  He doesn't need it his ego is so huge he's already right just by stating his opinion.
This is my biggest problem with Smudboy.  He comes off as the ultimate authority of writing and story telling like he can't possibly be as bad as him.  He goes on endless tangents about every single thing about the game's story and I'm supposed to sit here and take his boring voice.
His entire videos come off as "I know what I'm talking about so therefore anyone who doesn't disagree with me is stupid"
I don't care how right he is... He comes off as arragont rude and downright boring.
And plus his total cynasim makes me want to shove a rusty fork up my nose.

Well if you think having blantant plot holes throughout the game is good writing, then yes you are stupid.

THANK YOU so much for proving me right.  Your blatant fanboyism for anyone who has anything negative to say about Smudboy.  He blocks people from his youtube anyone who disagrees with him.  From someone who is so very nitpicky about everything it boggles the mind that he can't take critism.
And the best you can say is I like Mass Effect 2 so I'm stupid.
You just negated any possible way I could take you or Smudboy's argument seriously.

Lol. Using the term fanboyism to another forumite....the hypocrisy of it is amusing.

Nice I'm a fanboy simply because I don't automatically hate ME2.

[RAF1940]

sbvera13 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...
Now if it was like RedLetterMedia's Star Wars stuff... I'd probably totally watch it. :happy:

'Cuz that **** is hillarious.

Brenon Holmes: 1
Thread: 0

lol

[Balek-Vriege]

iakus wrote...

Hmm, that's funny:




9:45 or so:

Shepard:  What did you find at the other colonies?

Jacob:  Nothing.  No signs of attack.  No corpses.  Not even a trace of unusual genetic material to give us a clue.

Pre Freedom's Progress.



10:25ish

Your same video and the next question from Shepard.

Official investigators showed up at other colonies first.  Freedom's Progress is the first one Cerberus gets there first.  Logical conclusion?  Freedom's progress is where they get a Seeker Bug.

Edit:  No plot hole.

Had to say it.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 29 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[Savber100]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Smudboy's name gets dropped in a thread title and the next day that thread has 18 pages, this has to only fuel his ego.

He's the equivalent of the Turian Councillor from ME (for me anyways).

He loads his criticism with just enough hyperbole and arrogance to irritate but wraps it around with just enough truth to avoid from being seen as totally ignorant and stupid. <_<

All that, without pointing out ANY points he got wrong. But i guess attacking the person is easier than coming up with proof he's wrong.

*headdesks*

That's because I AM criticizing smudboy and not his arguments. I leave his "points" to people like spiffy and Phaedon to deal with. Instead, I'm criticizing his god awful presentation and the lack of balance within his arguments. He speaks the truth in some cases but it ALWAYS gets ruined by his belief that he's ALWAYS right and whatever he can't figure out by himself, he instantly equates it as a mistake on Bioware's part.

I'm sorry but to me that's a terrible critic. 

But hey... it' must be easier to believe that smudboy know more about the ME universe than the creators of ME themselves. After all, just look at smudboy's BRILLIANT alternative for ME2! Pure genius,.. 

Modifié par Savber100, 29 août 2011 - 12:33 .