6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...
So when Mass Effect 1 does it's not bad writing, but when Mass Effect 2 does it's bad writing?


This is the first time and list time I will ever reply to you.

That's because:

ME1 = Science fictional masterpiece that can't ever be wrong.

ME2 = A game that falls flat because one specific thing seemed fishy.

/Massive sarcasm

[Guldhun2]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Neither did the Shadow broker, unless he had a hundred IFFs laying around. He did send probes, and they did came back. That they are damaged doesn't matter, they came back is what counts. But don't let me stop you from making no sense.

He recovered the remains of those probes.

But don't let me stop you from grasping at straws for the sake of arguing.

Agree, it's better to go in blindly with no information whatsoever then to try to get some info. Sun Tzu would have been proud to see such a magnificent strategy.

[dreman9999]

Nashiktal wrote...

To be fair, you don't know that grunt will be better for holding the line. You don't even know there is a defence score unless you go digging around the game files.

There were plenty of people asking why so and so died for seemingly no reason, and if not for adventurous computer users and chatty developers it would still be a mystery, much like those horrendous paragon and renegade algorithms.

Add the invisibility of the hidden math, plus the visual uselessness of a good chunk of our crew... It makes me feel even more disdain for all of our party members. I have said it before, but Bioware really needs to find some way to incorporate our squadmates into the general gameplay instead of doing nothing. Perhaps if those squadmates did something useful during battle, they wouldn't feel as useless, if not finding a way to make them useful during the SM.

For example, if using research we could unlock more collector data from Grunts head, making him a navigator of sorts for the base. Little stuff like that to tie it together.

That really does not matter. The team is built for flexiblity. To respondto anything thrown at them. I see many people make refrences to the team in Ocean's eleven but they forget that that wasa fine tune team made for a fine tune mission. Everyone had to do what they did with persission being flexible when needed. Shepards team is built to be completely flexible.

[dreman9999]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Neither did the Shadow broker, unless he had a hundred IFFs laying around. He did send probes, and they did came back. That they are damaged doesn't matter, they came back is what counts. But don't let me stop you from making no sense.

He recovered the remains of those probes.

But don't let me stop you from grasping at straws for the sake of arguing.

Agree, it's better to go in blindly with no information whatsoever then to try to get some info. Sun Tzu would have been proud to see such a magnificent strategy.

You mean is a good idea to tell your enemy your about to attack and were your going to strike so that the enemy can set a countour attack for you?

[Guldhun2]

dreman9999 wrote...

That really does not matter. The team is built for flexiblity. To respondto anything thrown at them. I see many people make refrences to the team in Ocean's eleven but they forget that that wasa fine tune team made for a fine tune mission. Everyone had to do what they did with persission being flexible when needed. Shepards team is built to be completely flexible.

The team? What would you need a team for? You don't know what's on the other side. Could have been millions of collectors. How is your flexible team going to help fighting a million collectors? All characters in ME2 call it the collector homeworld, so they must assume large numbers. How is 13 people going to fight those? By being flexible?

[trying_touch]

i think i trust bioware's staff of experienced developers' decisions over a stranger's, whose only life is to mock Mass Effect, suggestions...

[Guldhun2]

dreman9999 wrote...

You mean is a good idea to tell your enemy your about to attack and were your going to strike so that the enemy can set a countour attack for you?

Like i said, Sun Tzu would have agreed that going in blindly fighting something you know nothing about at an unknow location is a good strategy. Wait...no.

[dreman9999]

didymos1120 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Grunt and Zaeeds's role is fighting. With out them, even loyal members die in the final line. Grunt has the best defence in all of ME so far with characters.

One, that isn't true.  Two, I already explained why that isn't a "role" the same way the biotic barrier or squad leader ones are.  But here's another reason: you never select someone for the express purpose of staying behind to defend.  You pick people to go with you.

No, it true. *snip*

Again, this notion is a result of thinking about only one possible "Hold The Line" scenario: everyone recruited, everyone still alive. And the earlier reasons still apply: it's not a defined role like the others on the SM.  You're entirely unaware of the fact that you're actually choosing defenders at all, unless you already know better. 

Yes, it not one person supporting the whole thing. But as I said before, you take them off and people die. That more then enough reason that they are need at the line.
Think about it like this. If your a commander, you would not want the best soldier that can last the best under fight to hold that line?

[Someone With Mass]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Agree, it's better to go in blindly with no information whatsoever then to try to get some info. Sun Tzu would have been proud to see such a magnificent strategy.

I'm sorry, but are you implying that everyone used the same kind of probe and same way of delivering and retrieving it?

You even assume that a probe could get past a debris field on its own, while one of the best pilots we know had a hard time maneuvering through it.

"But then we'd know that there's a debris field!"

If the coordinates leads to the galactic core and many ships have tried to go through the relay, then it's pretty easy to figure out that the remains of all those ships might be there somewhere if they were immediately destroyed upon arrival.

[dreman9999]

Guldhun2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You mean is a good idea to tell your enemy your about to attack and were your going to strike so that the enemy can set a countour attack for you?

Like i said, Sun Tzu would have agreed that going in blindly fighting something you know nothing about at an unknow location is a good strategy. Wait...no.

On any mission any thing could happen, and a soldier and commander need to be ready for it. Any commander will always say they rather have intell on the target to be able to make a strike, but if need be if they can get the advantage though a spontaneous act, like a suicide attack, then they will do it. Also, It not like they went 100% blind, they got intel on the collectors from the collector ship.

[eye basher]

Plans only survive intil first contact with the enemy after that is a crap shoot.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Ah, the Rule of Cool: the notion that consumers should auto lobotomise before enjoying modern media. Ignorance is bliss? Er, no, it isn't.

Rule of Cool rules in every good game and movie. If you hate it, then I really am sorry for your lack of enjoyment in this life.

There are plenty of enjoyable works of fiction where the authors took enough pride in their work to not fall back on something as pathetic and degrading as the "rule of cool". 

Gimme one example.

Hundreds or thousands of good science ficiton novels, shorts, etc. 

Backtracking already? Not even a movie then?

I asked you then and I ask you now, gimme a ****ing example!

I don't watch enough movies to give a good example, and really, Hollywood has been entirely consumed by the craptastic rule of kewl. 

It's telling, though, that you consider a reference to works of written fiction to be "backtracking". 

If you're willing to bother with something that doesn't involve pictures, perhaps try anything in Larry Niven's Known Space setting written prior to 1990.   Ringworld would be a good start.  Nothing in there just because "it would be awesome", and considered a science-fiction classic.

[dreman9999]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

 Coincidently, Thane is completely useless on the Suicide Mission, being the only squadmate with literally no role.

Uh, hardly.  What's Mordin's role?  What's Grunt's?  Zaeed's?  And don't give me "They're useful in Shep's squad", because Thane is too.  More than many to boot, as he's one of only two squadmates with Warp, and he has the same damage bonuses as Zaeed.  And also don't give me "good defenders", because none of that is made transparent by the game the way other roles are, and in any case, neither Zaeed nor Grunt are necessary for success during the "Hold The Line" sequence.

So don't give you the actual answer? Perfect.

Thane is the only squadmate who literally has no role throughout the game with the exception of being just another guy. When our initial objective was to recruit the best group of badasses in the galaxy, it damages that ideology when one is useless. Mordin had a plot integral role at an earlier juncture and was also provided a plausible reason why he had nothing in the Suicide Mission; too many seekers for his upgrades to be efficient. You are arguing gameplay mechanics, while I argue story. If you want to get straight down to it, one of ME2's problems was the fact only Miranda and Mordin had any connection to the plot whatsoever, and ultimately adds credence the game had too many characters.

What I will say though is "Hold the Line" was a kick in the teeth for no adequately explained reason. It amounted to punishing the player for nothing beyond yet another gimmick. Nonetheless, you still technically need at least two of Garrus, Zaeed and Grunt otherwise the result is death for someone else. If you can argue gameplay mechanics then so can I.

Edit: I'll give you that we do not choose their role though. Just makes the squad feel even less useful, which Nashiktal just touched on

dreman9999 wrote...

So your saying the intell we got from the collector ship would not have detail about that?
The thing is, if they did, why use one ship? And why not just attack earth and be done with it and not nick colonies?
As for the crew, they made it so we have something of everything. More than something then everything. As for Kasumi, she a master thief , think about what your skills have to be in Mass effect to be a master thief and you'll understand her use.

As for the probe theory, as I said before in this topic, that would giveaway the fact that the Normandy is about to attack and allow the collectors to be able to set a trap to contour it. No matter how long you wait and try to plan out the attack by probing the relay, all your doing is giving the collectors time to set a trap.

Yes, because the game never provides this intel. It only reveals the location of the Collector homeworld. We only ever witness a scan of the base once we already have passed through the relay and have a visual. If that was the case, then why not blow up that one ship? The Normandy has plenty of opportunities to bombard the thing into the next galaxy. For why they wouldn't use multiple ones? Perhaps because enormous mountain warships might attract attention, whereas one would not, at least not on a wide scale.

Yeah, and we have Thane for the sneaking role and gathering intel. Kasumi's role was already covered by three different people. Her selling feature was being a master thief, which was useless on a suicide mission where no thievery was intended. I may love the character but from a story perspective, she was "just another squadmate."

No, no it doesn't. They already know we are coming both due to us having the IFF thanks to the genius of Harbinger and since they took our crew; for the Shepards who give a damn. What they don't know is when we are coming. Technically they already had a trap when the multiple Oculus spring into action. We can always set a trap of them by waiting for the Collector Ship to pop out, blow it to smithereens, send something else through ahead of the Normandy to distract or trigger whatever they have hidden away, then follow in ourselves. Granted, this is only one method.

What Shepard does instead is simply hope for the best. We have no intel what is on the other side nor the logistics of our enemy. Hell we still have no idea our group of twelve badasses will even do all that much. This is terrible planning because it entirely reliant on everything working out in the best case scenario, which fortunately for Shepard, is exactly what happens. But since you want me to tell you her role. It's clear to be a theif in ME , you need to have the head to be able to bypass the best security. Guess wht the collectors have.


Food for thought, Shadow Broker sent in a probe and they never even seemed to notice or didn't care considering the defenses were not exactly top notch when Shepard and crew roll in.

The normady never had a chance to bombard the ship or destroy it. Horizon they would not be able to attack it, and  when they are on the collector ship, the wanted intell. And destroying the ship would not stop the collectors...They would just build another ship.
As for Kasumis role, it more of the case that you may not be able to use the other 2 people. Tali may not be loyal and Legion may not be there.


 As for the IFF, the know they are attacking but they don't have a arriving zone for the normandy. Every time a ship comes in   from using a relay they have a location where the ship arrives. A drift. They maybe of the arriving point by many km thus giving the ship a wide area to arrive in after using the mass relay. Using the probes will allow the collectors to narrow it down...... We are literally telling them,"We are going to land over here".......
Also, the SB probes did not reach the core, you need the iff for that, which he did not have.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sajuro wrote...

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why would they take the VS? Their only goal was to draw Shepard in and try to overwhelm him.

No, they had two goals; lure Shepard, and abduct the colony.

The VS is a human, whom we know they are interested in. The Collectors, and Harbinger, were literally a dozen or so feet from the VS. Lillith, who was very close to where the VS fell, was taken.

What, did they forget to pick up the VS?

No, Shepard just murdered his way through the Collector's before they could pick the VS up.
I don't see why that is so hard to grasp since he interrupted them in the middle of their abducting <_<

Because the people who were around the VS during the cutscene were all taken...

[dreman9999]

eye basher wrote...

Plans only survive intil first contact with the enemy after that is a crap shoot.

Thanks, that my point.

[Phaelducan]

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

[quote]Phaelducan wrote...

Not even close. I specifically cited all three general benchmarks. Fan acclaim, profitability, AND critical praise. Twilight is almost universally lampooned by critics. Conveniently, you ignore fully 33% of the equation to support your own erroneous assumptions. Typical of this "argument."

Furthermore, Spudboy doesn't analyze the elements of ME2. He crucifies them based on subjective matters of taste and his own narrow definitions of VERY wide elements of a body of work (such as plot, setting, and character). It's not a critique, it's a whine session. You are now adding to it.
[/quote]

What delightful irony. Read the first paragraph of what you quoted and you'll find I discuss critical praise, which you completely ignored. Likewise, you might want to actually look up what is being said about Twilight, because it certainly is not "universally lampooned by critics." In fact, Meyers has awards for the bloody thing, as ridiculous as the notion is. Now praise is hardly good, however it equates to average far more than "horrendous." We'll move on though before I have an aneurysm for partly defending that god awful series.

I never claimed to agree with Smudboy wholeheartedly, nor his approach when discussing the plot. Nevertheless, no his points are not all subjective, in fact many have merit. I shall meet you half way through and offer Shamus Young's analysis: similar intentions; less presumptuous attitude. If you merely scream "it isn't a critique" yet cannot refute the arguments, then you have no leg to stand on. Coincidently, you have now engaged in what you just called, "a whine session?"
-End Quote by Bourne

This is the kind of absurd crap which passes for discourse on the BSN now. Bourne, Twilight is lauded by critics? Ok then, if you believe that we have nothing more to discuss on the subject of critical praise. As to ignoring your point?

"Do reviews on Gamespot go into a lengthily analysis specifically on the plot? No, they discuss a plethora of elements pertaining to the overall design and structure of the game as a whole. This encompasses everything from gameplay to the soundtrack. Furthermore, their reviews serve a singular purpose; to answer if the game is worth playing. ME2 most definitely is worthy of our invested interest. The main plot is a mere five to seven hours while the remainder of the game is stellar for better or less. In fact, I would go so far as to cite the plot, "wasted potential" despite my vocal criticism of its many inconsistencies."

That's your quoted paragraph. That's your acknowledgement of critical relevance? So, yeah, you ARE ignoring 33% of the equation. You dimiss dozens of 90% percentile ratings, GotY awards, and other incredibly relevant benchmarks by saying "well some of that is about music and overall game issues." Absurd. That is completely dismissing them as a viable means to measure success (again, not the only one, but certainly not worthy of being dismissed). Look up irony, you clearly don't know it actually means.

As to the other critique? Shamus Young might be the best writer in the history of games journalism, but I don't care to read yet another criticism of a game I found little to no fault with. The complaints about plot, structure, characterization, etc are all largely contrived and grasping too much at straws. It's a tired argument, and AGAIN I will cite that it's you few dozen yahoos complaining ad nauseum who have the problem, not the millions of fans who loved the game.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 19 septembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Sajuro, stop trolling. Star Wars is comprised of nothing else but rule of cool. Almost nothing in there makes any sense, sci fi or otherwise, except to be gorgeous on screen. About your first example, I didn't read it, but to say that a fantasy novel is not comprised of rule of cool is laughable.

On Star Wars, it's pretty much all cinematic and mythological, it's straight up  space fantasy.  It's not all "rule of kewl", some of the elements introduced are simply necessary to tell the story that Lucas and crew wanted to tell. 

If you think that all fantasy novels are nothing but "rule of kewl", then you either need to read more, or don't really understand what the "rule of kewl" actually says or means. 

[Phaelducan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Furthermore, Spudboy doesn't analyze the elements of ME2. He crucifies them based on subjective matters of taste and his own narrow definitions of VERY wide elements of a body of work (such as plot, setting, and character). It's not a critique, it's a whine session. You are now adding to it.

Nope, it's a valid critique. Your posts are the whining session.

Yes! Lotion Soronnar is here. The Super suck tri-fecta is nearly complete. Seriously, Lotion, why did it take you so long to being your special brand of /facepalm around this topic? I can summarize all your points in the following statement if you'd like, that way you can just copy and paste it for all your future needs to muddy up any thread approaching an intelligent conversation.

Ahem.

"I am Lotion Soronnar. I have no point, and never will. I'm going to ignore every point you make now, and say it makes no sense, because I really don't understand very much. Thank you for your time and consideration."

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Sajuro, stop trolling. Star Wars is comprised of nothing else but rule of cool. Almost nothing in there makes any sense, sci fi or otherwise, except to be gorgeous on screen. About your first example, I didn't read it, but to say that a fantasy novel is not comprised of rule of cool is laughable.

On Star Wars, it's pretty much all cinematic and mythological, it's straight up  space fantasy.  It's not all "rule of kewl", some of the elements introduced are simply necessary to tell the story that Lucas and crew wanted to tell. 

If you think that all fantasy novels are nothing but "rule of kewl", then you either need to read more, or don't really understand what the "rule of kewl" actually says or means. 

Dude, Arkitekt asked for examples, and Star Wars was provided. Lightsabers are a perfect example of the very thing you are complaining about. They exist because they freaking rule, not because there is a viable scientific explanation for a sword made of refracted energy inexplicably ending around 3 or so feet beyond the hilt. Same thing with the Trench Run, which he also referenced directly.

It is NOT all cinematic and mythological, and he explains several direct examples which you conveniently ignore. This is exactly why this inane argument keeps going on, is because the naysayers just refuse to acknowedge that Mass Effect 2 did nothing that other great Sci-Fi has done for that last Century. It asks those who watch/play/read it to buy in to implausible events.

VERY rarely do you get anything close to an ultra-realistic portrayal of real life science in Science Fiction, and there is simply no rational reason why the resurrection plot device is your stumbling block for enjoying the premise of the game. 

[Sajuro]

Arkitekt wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
lets see >.> ummm Farenheit 451?

Having firemen burning books in an age where everything else is fire proof?

Come on! 

Since books are deliberately burned as part of the culture and it is dystopic, I don't count it as rule of cool.
Pardon my saying so, but it seems that you intend to apply the Rule of Cool label rather liberally

[Sajuro]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why would they take the VS? Their only goal was to draw Shepard in and try to overwhelm him.

No, they had two goals; lure Shepard, and abduct the colony.

The VS is a human, whom we know they are interested in. The Collectors, and Harbinger, were literally a dozen or so feet from the VS. Lillith, who was very close to where the VS fell, was taken.

What, did they forget to pick up the VS?

No, Shepard just murdered his way through the Collector's before they could pick the VS up.
I don't see why that is so hard to grasp since he interrupted them in the middle of their abducting <_<

Because the people who were around the VS during the cutscene were all taken...

and people all around sole survivor Shepard died on Akuze.... plot hole!
That's what it means to be a sole survivor, everyone around the VS was abducted and later killed, but only through luck of Shepard's timing did they survive.

[TobyHasEyes]

What about Blade Runner then?

We cannot make a robot so sophisticated that it believes it is human, no satisfactory explanation is given for how they are made, but not many people would say that stops them enjoying it

That is what I don't understand; this view that these 'flaws' are even worth mentioning or discussing

[111987]

Sajuro wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why would they take the VS? Their only goal was to draw Shepard in and try to overwhelm him.

No, they had two goals; lure Shepard, and abduct the colony.

The VS is a human, whom we know they are interested in. The Collectors, and Harbinger, were literally a dozen or so feet from the VS. Lillith, who was very close to where the VS fell, was taken.

What, did they forget to pick up the VS?

No, Shepard just murdered his way through the Collector's before they could pick the VS up.
I don't see why that is so hard to grasp since he interrupted them in the middle of their abducting <_<

Because the people who were around the VS during the cutscene were all taken...

and people all around sole survivor Shepard died on Akuze.... plot hole!
That's what it means to be a sole survivor, everyone around the VS was abducted and later killed, but only through luck of Shepard's timing did they survive.

That is a totally irrelevant example. Shepard on Akuze wasn't put into a stasis field. There is a HUGE difference between the two situations.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sajuro wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why would they take the VS? Their only goal was to draw Shepard in and try to overwhelm him.

No, they had two goals; lure Shepard, and abduct the colony.

The VS is a human, whom we know they are interested in. The Collectors, and Harbinger, were literally a dozen or so feet from the VS. Lillith, who was very close to where the VS fell, was taken.

What, did they forget to pick up the VS?

No, Shepard just murdered his way through the Collector's before they could pick the VS up.
I don't see why that is so hard to grasp since he interrupted them in the middle of their abducting <_<

Because the people who were around the VS during the cutscene were all taken...

and people all around sole survivor Shepard died on Akuze.... plot hole!
That's what it means to be a sole survivor, everyone around the VS was abducted and later killed, but only through luck of Shepard's timing did they survive.

Completely irrelevent and non-comparable situation. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

What about Blade Runner then?

We cannot make a robot so sophisticated that it believes it is human, no satisfactory explanation is given for how they are made, but not many people would say that stops them enjoying it

That is what I don't understand; this view that these 'flaws' are even worth mentioning or discussing

The existence of the "replicants" is a necessary element -- the necessary element -- for telling the story the author wanted to tell.  They're not just there to be kewl.