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[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaelducan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Furthermore, Spudboy doesn't analyze the elements of ME2. He crucifies them based on subjective matters of taste and his own narrow definitions of VERY wide elements of a body of work (such as plot, setting, and character). It's not a critique, it's a whine session. You are now adding to it.

Nope, it's a valid critique. Your posts are the whining session.

Yes! Lotion Soronnar is here. The Super suck tri-fecta is nearly complete. Seriously, Lotion, why did it take you so long to being your special brand of /facepalm around this topic?

I awaited your arrival Failducan.
My day is not compelte unless I can bash blinded fanboys.

"I am Failducan. I have no point, and never will. I'm going to ignore every point you make now, and say it makes no sense, because I really don't understand very much. Thank you for your time and consideration."

I agree...

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

What about Blade Runner then?

We cannot make a robot so sophisticated that it believes it is human, no satisfactory explanation is given for how they are made, but not many people would say that stops them enjoying it

That is what I don't understand; this view that these 'flaws' are even worth mentioning or discussing

Take one part super processor, one part high  learning processing, add a part of humanistic reactions that come up due to though a as numeric instincts(if unit eat;s cake, unit engages in "happy"), and for the final ingredient fake memories.

It you don't think it's impossible now, I bid you to take a look at the robotics community now. They are able to use rat brains as a robot processor..... All we need if better technical building of the bodies and they could look human.

Get your head back to earth and down from the fantasy-land. It's impossible now. Youre knowledge of robotics community is as good as your knowledge of biology - horrible.

And IIRC, the replicants in blade runner are biological. They are basicly super-humans made in test tubes.

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

[Lotion Soronarr]

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The IFF will either work or not.Wwhat will happen once you're in is anyones guess.
But it's ALWAYS better to loose a probe rather than loose a expensive ship with people.

Ok first of all its lose, not loose. Lose is a verb. Loose is an adjective (that has no connection to the verb).

And my point was that Shepard needs to go through the Omega 4 relay to stop the collectors (and also to save his crew). Sending the probe poses too great a risk of losing the IFF (which is their only ticket through the relay). If he doesn't go through, collectors keep abducting colonists and the human reaper gets made (though he doesn't know that second part yet). Under these circumstances, Shepard may understandably conclude that the risk to the Normandy is worth it if he gets a chance to stop the collectors. Besides, everyone that's left on the Normandy knew the risks when they signed on. They knew it could be a one way trip.

Sheppard doesn't have to do anything.

Sending a probes poses a risk or loosing hte IFF?
Sending the ship poses the risk of loosing the IFF, Shep And the Normandy! Which is the great loss?

And since no one knows what the collectors are up to, taking that risk at that point is downright silly. Heck, even knowing what tehy are up to does not justify the risk.

What to stop the collectors? Campt the relay. Blow it up. Or add some more sense into the galaxy where the faction actually are capalbe of soemthing wihout God-Sheppard.

[LeVaughnX]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

What about Blade Runner then?

We cannot make a robot so sophisticated that it believes it is human, no satisfactory explanation is given for how they are made, but not many people would say that stops them enjoying it

That is what I don't understand; this view that these 'flaws' are even worth mentioning or discussing

Take one part super processor, one part high  learning processing, add a part of humanistic reactions that come up due to though a as numeric instincts(if unit eat;s cake, unit engages in "happy"), and for the final ingredient fake memories.

It you don't think it's impossible now, I bid you to take a look at the robotics community now. They are able to use rat brains as a robot processor..... All we need if better technical building of the bodies and they could look human.

Get your head back to earth and down from the fantasy-land. It's impossible now. Youre knowledge of robotics community is as good as your knowledge of biology - horrible.

And IIRC, the replicants in blade runner are biological. They are basicly super-humans made in test tubes.

The reason everyone should disregard your blabbing "Lotion" is because of this very statement..

""Youre knowledge of robotics community is as good as your knowledge of biology - horrible.""

Are you blind? Stupid? Or just Smudboy 2.0? If "YOU'RE" going to insult someone at least attempt to spell correctly and use proper grammar skills...I mean why the hell would you try to act like you know something if you say ""YOURE"" when you don't even need to?

Shut up - stop posting - go find Zulu and have a baby or something.

[LeVaughnX]

**Pardon my spelling**

Lets declare war on the Terminous (sp) system by blowing up the Omega 4 relay that could no one has ever successfully passed through! Yeah; its a great idea to blow it up, or to camp the Relay like a bunch of Call of Duty players camping a spawn point with our entire fleet! That won't make Aria or the Terminous system angry, nervous, or all around concerned! Just like in real life; lets send all American forces into Iraq and just camp there going ""Oh we're here to make sure the terrorists come out and die soon as we spot them!"" - Bad idea...

Sending probes through the "Omega 4 Relay" reason its a good idea is to see what happens; oh wait ships already went through and just vanished. Probes probably will just go through too and vanish. Well I guess this is where the ""educated risk"" comes in! With the Reaper IFF they have the best chance of making it through the relay without any problems; not to mention they mave a ship ready for a fight AND a ship carrying the best equipment and people possible for this type of situation. Its small enough to maneuver through any type of mine-field and its able to recon quite nicely.

Now then...


[Edit] P.S. - The system the Omega 4 Relay is in probably has more people in it than the one in the "Arrival" DLC that we blew up...Not to mention Omega is kind of like the Citidel for the Terminous system...I'm sure they'll be right happy you bumped that off!

Modifié par LeVaughnX, 19 septembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Phaelducan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Furthermore, Spudboy doesn't analyze the elements of ME2. He crucifies them based on subjective matters of taste and his own narrow definitions of VERY wide elements of a body of work (such as plot, setting, and character). It's not a critique, it's a whine session. You are now adding to it.

Nope, it's a valid critique. Your posts are the whining session.

Yes! Lotion Soronnar is here. The Super suck tri-fecta is nearly complete. Seriously, Lotion, why did it take you so long to being your special brand of /facepalm around this topic?

I awaited your arrival Failducan.
My day is not compelte unless I can bash blinded fanboys.

"I am Failducan. I have no point, and never will. I'm going to ignore every point you make now, and say it makes no sense, because I really don't understand very much. Thank you for your time and consideration."

I agree...

Every time you post it further confirms how childish you are. I'd say I'm disappointed in you, but that would mean I thought you were something more than some thick jarhead wannabe who got their understanding of military tactics from an A-Team episode.

You don't even know squat about the game, really, so why are you even posting about it?

Oh, and I am a fanboy, but not for Mass Effect or Bioware. It's just foolish the amount of rhetoric being vomited on ME2 for invalid reasons. 

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes...because when there's 10 ships shooting at you at point black, your agiltiy will be the wining factor here....

The over-confidence in Normandy and the level of dellusion is amazing....

Okay, do you even know how big that saftey zone is?

It could just be enough wiggle room to get past the debris field and to the Collector base for all you know.

If it's so small, then static, powerfull defenses are even more likely.
This is an argument agaisnt you.

Also, if the IFF didn't work, then I'm fairly sure EDI would've noticed it. People tend to check their equipment before using it. They have tested the IFF. It works.

Really? Who tested it and when?
You can only test if it emitts a signal..not what the relay will do with that signal.
There was no real test made. Only a systems test.

And if the Collector ships were there at point blank range, not only would they endanger their own ships, as there's a debris field there, they would be running the risk of being hit by a ship moving at FTL speeds, which is very dangerous and a completely unnecessary risk.

It's called an exit corridor for a reason.
the bigger the corridor/drift, the more space there is for big collector ships.
The smaller it is, the more deadly any static defense would be.

You're also putting a lot of faith in that nonexistent fleet, which is equally as delusional.

Delusional? It's delusional to jump into reaper controled space wihout recon expecting only one ship.

Humans have 200+ starships and are only space-fearing for a while.
A machine-race that's been space-fearing for millions of years and had acess to resources of an entire galaxy. That had time and ability to build bajjillions of warships....You
think them having a huge amount of ships is a stretch? You're the one
that's dellusional.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

1. They had small, powerful and moving defenses, which are even better, since a ship can just zoom past those static defenses with ease. Here's something else. The debris field. It's constantly moving. 

2. That is still a test, ******. A signal that activates the special function of the relay which allows for precision jumps is exactly what they were aiming for. And how could they test that? Strapping the IFF on one of those probes which everyone claims to be so ****ing brilliant and hope it comes back?

3. Yeah, deadlier for the Collectors, since they would have to approach the relay from the exact same angle all the time to avoid ramming into those defenses. 

4. The Collectors have only been around for about fifty thousand years, and a even better move would be to take all those massive fleets out into dark space and put them into hibernation as a part of the Reapers' conquering fleet instead of letting them waste energy trying to protect themselves from the intense radiations and gravitational pulls from the galactic core. 

The difference between you and me is that I'm actually capable of believing in other outcomes or situations than the one I think is right or the most probable. 

While you're going "I am always right! I can't be wrong! Everything I say is the truth, no matter how stupid it is!" all the time.

[Fixers0]

LeVaughnX wrote...
Lets declare war on the Terminous (sp) system by blowing up the Omega 4 relay that could no one has ever successfully passed through! Yeah; its a great idea to blow it up, or to camp the Relay like a bunch of Call of Duty players camping a spawn point with our entire fleet! That won't make Aria or the Terminous system angry, nervous, or all around concerned!

And what does this have to do with Smudboy's video's?

LeVaughnX wrote...
Sending probes through the "Omega 4 Relay" reason its a good idea is to see what happens; oh wait ships already went through and just vanished. Probes probably will just go through too and vanish.

You obviously haven't played Lair of the Shadow Broker.

LeVaughnX wrote...
With the Reaper IFF they have the best chance of making it through the relay without any problems; not to mention they mave a ship ready for a fight AND a ship carrying the best equipment and people possible for this type of situation.

Why not send probes with the IFF installed?

And putting everything and risk by bullrushing your entire plan isn't a wise thing to do considering what's at stake. what if we get torn apart by a defense grid? Ground troopers no matter how badass aren't going to save you there.

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

What about Blade Runner then?

We cannot make a robot so sophisticated that it believes it is human, no satisfactory explanation is given for how they are made, but not many people would say that stops them enjoying it

That is what I don't understand; this view that these 'flaws' are even worth mentioning or discussing

Take one part super processor, one part high  learning processing, add a part of humanistic reactions that come up due to though a as numeric instincts(if unit eat;s cake, unit engages in "happy"), and for the final ingredient fake memories.

It you don't think it's impossible now, I bid you to take a look at the robotics community now. They are able to use rat brains as a robot processor..... All we need if better technical building of the bodies and they could look human.

Get your head back to earth and down from the fantasy-land. It's impossible now. Youre knowledge of robotics community is as good as your knowledge of biology - horrible.

And IIRC, the replicants in blade runner are biological. They are basicly super-humans made in test tubes.

Did you not read where I stated.."ROBOT WITH A BRAIN OF A RAT"?
I did say assembly is the only limitation.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Arkitekt wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

 Likewise, you might want to actually look up what is being said about Twilight, because it certainly is not "universally lampooned by critics." In fact, Meyers has awards for the bloody thing, as ridiculous as the notion is. Now praise is hardly good, however it equates to average far more than "horrendous." We'll move on though before I have an aneurysm for partly defending that god awful series.

Rotten Tomatoes has the series topping out at 50%, reaching as low as 27%. This means the critics say it "sucks".

No, that would equate to average. One review may have been 27% however others had to be steadily higher, some over 50% to reach the overall. What that actually means is some critics hated it, and rightly so, but evidently not all of them.

Now that looks a promising thing. When I have more time to be bored, I might take a look.

God forbid ME2 isn't beloved by everyone in every possible way.

There was no rush. The omega 4 mission has a reason to be done as it is, and both you and Smudboy failed to understand it. The element of surprise is the key advantage against the collectors. This is why the first ever thing to be put through the omega 4 relay with the correct IFF must be the final mission itself

And if they have a Collector Citadel? Cheers, we all die! If Harbinger has a few dozen ships? Cheers we all die! If there is no means to actually dock the Normandy for our little infiltration team? We're screwed. Basically unless everything goes exactly in our favor, that our pure guesswork there is only that one Collector ship and nothing else in way of opposition, we are doomed. That's a really bad plan.

Ah I see you are demanding that the cipher plot device in ME1 had to have some kind of impact in ME2.

Nope, never said thought, although it certainly would have been nice. What I said was Shepard was not plot integral. In ME1 without Shepard, we could never have discovered Ilos, therefore making her a necessity component to the development. There is no need in ME2. In fact, TIM would have been better off just using Miranda and Jacob.

Phaelducan wrote...

This is the kind of absurd crap which passes for discourse on the BSN now. Bourne, Twilight is lauded by critics? Ok then, if you believe that we have nothing more to discuss on the subject of critical praise. As to ignoring your point?

You find that quote in my post. I'll wait...

Having difficulty? Yeah, because I never said it. What I said was it has awards, which is an accurate statement. Likewise, it has many nominations for said awards. I have no idea why mind you.

That's your quoted paragraph. That's your acknowledgement of critical relevance? So, yeah, you ARE ignoring 33% of the equation. You dimiss dozens of 90% percentile ratings, GotY awards, and other incredibly relevant benchmarks by saying "well some of that is about music and overall game issues." Absurd. That is completely dismissing them as a viable means to measure success (again, not the only one, but certainly not worthy of being dismissed). Look up irony, you clearly don't know it actually means.

So you find Call of Duty a better game than Mass Effect? It decimated it in every conceivable way, in terms of critical acclaim, sales figures - by several times - and I recall it has a GotY award too. Could be wrong there though. Likewise, Final Fantasy games from seven onward, with the exception of FFXIII, all has a higher rating on Gamespot than Mass Effect, and sold a lot more.

Review sites encompass everything from graphics, voice acting, characters, sound, level design and the list continues. ME2 warrants a high score when we look toward everything it offers. This discussion is specifically on analyzing the plot, which as previously stated, is not what websites like IGN or Gamespot do. That is why their review is irrelevant. Popularity does not necessarily mean something is good, just that's popular.

As to the other critique? Shamus Young might be the best writer in the history of games journalism, but I don't care to read yet another criticism of a game I found little to no fault with. The complaints about plot, structure, characterization, etc are all largely contrived and grasping too much at straws. It's a tired argument, and AGAIN I will cite that it's you few dozen yahoos complaining ad nauseum who have the problem, not the millions of fans who loved the game.

And there you admit to having a completely biased opinion, refusing to even acknowledge any criticism, going so far as to say even the best writer in the world could not change your mind. So why exactly are you here? You are essentially a fanboy, you have contributed nothing to the actual debate, except to complain about complainers and you admit to having a bias. Why not just go play the game you love, since nothing any one says here will ever change your opinion nor are you interested in hearing about our "whining."

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:47 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

Not a quote from the movie, a quote from someone involved in the production.  A lot of other elements were changed between Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner.  


The Reapers or something like the Reapers are a necessity to tell the story that the ME series is telling.  The tomatoes or the like would have been silly, and totally out of touch with the established tone and setting...


If the writers wanted to isolate Shep from the familiar structure of the Alliance, the fleet, and the Council, and from many of his comrades, and put him in a situation of conflicting ethics, morals, and loyalties, then events which put Shep there were necessary to the story.  The particular attack-death-resurrection sequence used wasn't necessary, and was probably even detrimental, as it opened up a lot of completely unneeded holes. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The normady never had a chance to bombard the ship or destroy it. Horizon they would not be able to attack it, and  when they are on the collector ship, the wanted intell. And destroying the ship would not stop the collectors...They would just build another ship.

WRONG.
They had 2 opportunities. an unupgraded Normandy can take out a fully functional collector cruiser. Don't tell they couldn't take out a LANDED one on Horizon (hint - atmosphere hightens hte destructive power of most weapons), or to cripple it before boarding.

 As for the IFF, the know they are attacking but they don't have a arriving zone for the normandy. Every time a ship comes in   from using a relay they have a location where the ship arrives. A drift. They maybe of the arriving point by many km thus giving the ship a wide area to arrive in after using the mass relay. Using the probes will allow the collectors to narrow it down...... We are literally telling them,"We are going to land over here".......
Also, the SB probes did not reach the core, you need the iff for that, which he did not have.

BS..they already know the drift and capabilities of that relay to a T.
The repaers built it and calibrated it.

And knowing that we know doesn't help the Collectors that much if they don't know when we'll come and what will come trough.

1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.
2. The collector ship mission...The normandy has no momentum yet to evade or quickly attack. The only time they had is before the ship was active and at that point they still wanted to the info on the ship.

Also, about the drift....Different types of ships has different level of drift. The landing drift of the Normandy is different then the collector ship. This is based on the density of the ship. Something big always need more energy to stop then something small if they are going the same speed.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

Not a quote from the movie, a quote from someone involved in the production.  A lot of other elements were changed between Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner.  


The Reapers or something like the Reapers are a necessity to tell the story that the ME series is telling.  The tomatoes or the like would have been silly, and totally out of touch with the established tone and setting...


If the writers wanted to isolate Shep from the familiar structure of the Alliance, the fleet, and the Council, and from many of his comrades, and put him in a situation of conflicting ethics, morals, and loyalties, then events which put Shep there were necessary to the story.  The particular attack-death-resurrection sequence used wasn't necessary, and was probably even detrimental, as it opened up a lot of completely unneeded holes. 

Turth be told, any plot direction or plot element is not nessisary for a story. The story can be and do anything as long as it's consistant with it's own facts.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The IFF will either work or not.Wwhat will happen once you're in is anyones guess.
But it's ALWAYS better to loose a probe rather than loose a expensive ship with people.

Ok first of all its lose, not loose. Lose is a verb. Loose is an adjective (that has no connection to the verb).

And my point was that Shepard needs to go through the Omega 4 relay to stop the collectors (and also to save his crew). Sending the probe poses too great a risk of losing the IFF (which is their only ticket through the relay). If he doesn't go through, collectors keep abducting colonists and the human reaper gets made (though he doesn't know that second part yet). Under these circumstances, Shepard may understandably conclude that the risk to the Normandy is worth it if he gets a chance to stop the collectors. Besides, everyone that's left on the Normandy knew the risks when they signed on. They knew it could be a one way trip.

Sheppard doesn't have to do anything.

Sending a probes poses a risk or loosing hte IFF?
Sending the ship poses the risk of loosing the IFF, Shep And the Normandy! Which is the great loss?

And since no one knows what the collectors are up to, taking that risk at that point is downright silly. Heck, even knowing what tehy are up to does not justify the risk.

What to stop the collectors? Campt the relay. Blow it up. Or add some more sense into the galaxy where the faction actually are capalbe of soemthing wihout God-Sheppard.

Shepard has to do something. He may not need to do it right then, be he had to do something about the collector who are helping the reapers. In a war you never want the enemy to make a base in your back yard. If they do and you have the chance to destroy it with no effects to you other resorces, formation and tactics.....You destroy the base.

[Nashiktal]

Alright there are too many arguments and points for me to follow them, so I am just going to focus on one. Why sending a probe through would not be a waste of time. I'm partially talking to Someone with Mass, but its more of a general talking point.

Also before I begin, we have to remember that shep isn't trying to save his crew from the beginning, that is a variable factor that can happen halfway to the end of the game. I personally didn't get my crew upducted until I emptied the galaxy of quests.

Firstly sending a probe through, even assuming we would not get it back does many things. If we have the IFF, we can test it on the probe. The IFF isn't some sort of one of a kind hardware, its copyable software. Put the IFF on a cheap probe, activate it, and you circumvent any potential viruses or nasty intrusions into the normandy's systems.

It would not stop the collectors from finding the normandy, but it would prevent the normandy from being hacked, and if the normandy isn't hacked, the crew isn't abducted. The only downside I can think of is that EDI would remain shackled, but that could be a point brought up later. (I am using all my points as they were in game, by using the probe they do not know of any traps, they just find out afterward)

Now to the next point, it would be a waste to send probes through. We actually don't know that, at least at first. We hear RUMORS that no ship has ever returned, yet we don't test it before sending our one of a kind warship full of badasses through? A probe is cheap, only a few credits in game, and certainly a drop in the bucket compared to how much the normandy or even shep costs, would it really hurt to try?

Later on we learn that the shadow broker retrieves his probes. They might be broken, but the very fact HE GOT THEM BACK is huge. If you can retrieve them, you just disproved the fact that no one can return, all you have to do is find out what destroyed the probe, and then figure out a way around that. Hell you can ask a few preliminary questions after this point.

1. How was the probe destroyed? Was destroyed by some sort of impact? and if so was smashed flat, or blown apart, pierced? (Which can indicate anything from debris, railgun fire, to misses) Does it show any sign of heat damage? Is it focused on a central point, or encompassed the entire probe? (which can indicate anything from high temperatures, to particle or laser weaponry)

These things can give you an idea what to expect. If the probes are melted, beef up the armor to resist heat. That sort of thing. I mean, if Mordin can figure out the collectors have an artificial base in the center of the galaxy just by pointing to a point on the map, surely he can figure out something more substantial after analyzing the derbis with his high tech lab?

Then we have something neat to try. Saddle a probe up with quantum entanglement, and send it in. In this case it doesn't matter if it doesn't return. You can get information straight from the probe for as long as it transmits, in which case you KNOW what destroyed it. You would know that their is debris right in front of the damn relay, so joker doesn't have to crap his pants right when you exit. If its destroyed by the occuli, then you can prepare for them, maybe get some fighters so you don't have to fight the damn thing in your cargo hold. (I still don't understand why it doesnt just tear up the ship from the inside. Not like it has to stop to fight you.

Sending a probe in has so may pluses with so few negatives that I just don't understand why people are against it. Alerting the enemy isn't much of a problem, they already know you have the IFF, and then knowing doesn't change any defenses they already have in place.

Also unrelated but I have to ask, why don't we ever camp in front of the relay to wait for the damn collector cruiser? An un-upgraded normandy can fight it and kill it (with damage of course, but the normandy is a frigate taking on a cruiser alone, and the cruiser was expecting the normandy.) Since the collectors apparently only have one ship as so many insist, than the day is save an no more colonies are stolen... Yay?

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I awaited your arrival Failducan.
My day is not compelte unless I can bash blinded fanboys.

That's a rather petty hobby.  Ever considered, say, gardening?

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

Not a quote from the movie, a quote from someone involved in the production.  A lot of other elements were changed between Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner.  


The Reapers or something like the Reapers are a necessity to tell the story that the ME series is telling.  The tomatoes or the like would have been silly, and totally out of touch with the established tone and setting...


If the writers wanted to isolate Shep from the familiar structure of the Alliance, the fleet, and the Council, and from many of his comrades, and put him in a situation of conflicting ethics, morals, and loyalties, then events which put Shep there were necessary to the story.  The particular attack-death-resurrection sequence used wasn't necessary, and was probably even detrimental, as it opened up a lot of completely unneeded holes. 

It doesn't matter what you replace it with. Your argument is that the death was uneccessary, and my rebuttal is that almost any part of any video game can be replaced. Did he have to die? No, but he did, and it served the purpose in the narrative that it was intended for. 

As to the rule of cool, the point of contention that you are still making is that he died for no reason other than awesomeness, which I disagree with as it does serve a narrative purpose, and additionally there are numerous other examples of things being done in a sci-fi setting that don't have a scientific explanation. Hence the previous examples. In the case of Bladerunner, it wasn't even for any purpose other than audience excitement. I'm not going to dig up some 30 year old quote, though, to satisfy your silly criteria for legitimacy. I'm not pulling something obscure in talking about Roy.

As to the reviews, Mass Effect was consistently rated significantly higher that it's peers, whereas Twilight was consistently given lower (much) scores than it's peers. Please don't go further into this, as it insults us both.

[Bourne Endeavor]

dreman9999 wrote...

The normady never had a chance to bombard the ship or destroy it. Horizon they would not be able to attack it, and  when they are on the collector ship, the wanted intell. And destroying the ship would not stop the collectors...They would just build another ship.

What was stopping Joker on Horizon? We already have the Thanix Cannon, which pulverized their ship later on. Exactly, which would delay them, allowing us to gather intel on the Omega 4 Relay or just focus strictly on the pending Reaper invasion while the Collectors are trapped. We could also salvage the remains of the ship after blowing it up.

As for Kasumis role, it more of the case that you may not be able to use the other 2 people. Tali may not be loyal and Legion may not be there.

Kasumi may not be loyal either, and Legion is only not available if you make that decision. Regardless, everyone on the Tech Expert list can hack the door, just only Tali, Legion and Kasumi survive, and only if loyal. The door jamming has nothing to do with their efficiency even, since it simply jams. That is more bad luck than anything else.

 As for the IFF, the know they are attacking but they don't have a arriving zone for the normandy. Every time a ship comes in   from using a relay they have a location where the ship arrives. A drift. They maybe of the arriving point by many km thus giving the ship a wide area to arrive in after using the mass relay. Using the probes will allow the collectors to narrow it down...... We are literally telling them,"We are going to land over here".......
Also, the SB probes did not reach the core, you need the iff for that, which he did not have.

Evidently, that did not seem to bother them since Oculus found the Normandy, which they knew was arriving eventually, and took action. The SB's probe was undetected, so why would ours so easily be found? Using probes would allow us to gauge what their arsenal is and if going through would get us killed or not. What if those Oculus had specifically designed lasers to cripple ships in lieu of just poking holes? We're dead. Now a probe could relay this information back to us, and LotSB tells us they can come back, although we need to improve on the ones he sent. So that's a good start. Moreover, the Collectors have to leave the Relay if they wish to fulfill their flesh bag quota. We, on the other hand, can take our time, and even plan a trap for them. You glossed over that part of my post.

[Nashiktal]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I awaited your arrival Failducan.
My day is not compelte unless I can bash blinded fanboys.

That's a rather petty hobby.  Ever considered, say, gardening?

This is probably pretty obvious, but I paint miniatures myself. 

-For the greater good.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Nashiktal wrote...

Alright there are too many arguments and points for me to follow them, so I am just going to focus on one. Why sending a probe through would not be a waste of time. I'm partially talking to Someone with Mass, but its more of a general talking point.

Also before I begin, we have to remember that shep isn't trying to save his crew from the beginning, that is a variable factor that can happen halfway to the end of the game. I personally didn't get my crew upducted until I emptied the galaxy of quests.

Firstly sending a probe through, even assuming we would not get it back does many things. If we have the IFF, we can test it on the probe. The IFF isn't some sort of one of a kind hardware, its copyable software. Put the IFF on a cheap probe, activate it, and you circumvent any potential viruses or nasty intrusions into the normandy's systems.

It would not stop the collectors from finding the normandy, but it would prevent the normandy from being hacked, and if the normandy isn't hacked, the crew isn't abducted. The only downside I can think of is that EDI would remain shackled, but that could be a point brought up later. (I am using all my points as they were in game, by using the probe they do not know of any traps, they just find out afterward)

Now to the next point, it would be a waste to send probes through. We actually don't know that, at least at first. We hear RUMORS that no ship has ever returned, yet we don't test it before sending our one of a kind warship full of badasses through? A probe is cheap, only a few credits in game, and certainly a drop in the bucket compared to how much the normandy or even shep costs, would it really hurt to try?

Later on we learn that the shadow broker retrieves his probes. They might be broken, but the very fact HE GOT THEM BACK is huge. If you can retrieve them, you just disproved the fact that no one can return, all you have to do is find out what destroyed the probe, and then figure out a way around that. Hell you can ask a few preliminary questions after this point.

1. How was the probe destroyed? Was destroyed by some sort of impact? and if so was smashed flat, or blown apart, pierced? (Which can indicate anything from debris, railgun fire, to misses) Does it show any sign of heat damage? Is it focused on a central point, or encompassed the entire probe? (which can indicate anything from high temperatures, to particle or laser weaponry)

These things can give you an idea what to expect. If the probes are melted, beef up the armor to resist heat. That sort of thing. I mean, if Mordin can figure out the collectors have an artificial base in the center of the galaxy just by pointing to a point on the map, surely he can figure out something more substantial after analyzing the derbis with his high tech lab?

Then we have something neat to try. Saddle a probe up with quantum entanglement, and send it in. In this case it doesn't matter if it doesn't return. You can get information straight from the probe for as long as it transmits, in which case you KNOW what destroyed it. You would know that their is debris right in front of the damn relay, so joker doesn't have to crap his pants right when you exit. If its destroyed by the occuli, then you can prepare for them, maybe get some fighters so you don't have to fight the damn thing in your cargo hold. (I still don't understand why it doesnt just tear up the ship from the inside. Not like it has to stop to fight you.

Sending a probe in has so may pluses with so few negatives that I just don't understand why people are against it. Alerting the enemy isn't much of a problem, they already know you have the IFF, and then knowing doesn't change any defenses they already have in place.

Also unrelated but I have to ask, why don't we ever camp in front of the relay to wait for the damn collector cruiser? An un-upgraded normandy can fight it and kill it (with damage of course, but the normandy is a frigate taking on a cruiser alone, and the cruiser was expecting the normandy.) Since the collectors apparently only have one ship as so many insist, than the day is save an no more colonies are stolen... Yay?

This human understands!

Honestly, couldn't have wrote it better myself mate. This is exactly the issues with just bull rushing the relay.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:34 .

[azerSheppard]

This video pretty much explains my feeling about this topic.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Alright there are too many arguments and points for me to follow them, so I am just going to focus on one. Why sending a probe through would not be a waste of time. I'm partially talking to Someone with Mass, but its more of a general talking point.

Also before I begin, we have to remember that shep isn't trying to save his crew from the beginning, that is a variable factor that can happen halfway to the end of the game. I personally didn't get my crew upducted until I emptied the galaxy of quests.

Firstly sending a probe through, even assuming we would not get it back does many things. If we have the IFF, we can test it on the probe. The IFF isn't some sort of one of a kind hardware, its copyable software. Put the IFF on a cheap probe, activate it, and you circumvent any potential viruses or nasty intrusions into the normandy's systems.

It would not stop the collectors from finding the normandy, but it would prevent the normandy from being hacked, and if the normandy isn't hacked, the crew isn't abducted. The only downside I can think of is that EDI would remain shackled, but that could be a point brought up later. (I am using all my points as they were in game, by using the probe they do not know of any traps, they just find out afterward)

Now to the next point, it would be a waste to send probes through. We actually don't know that, at least at first. We hear RUMORS that no ship has ever returned, yet we don't test it before sending our one of a kind warship full of badasses through? A probe is cheap, only a few credits in game, and certainly a drop in the bucket compared to how much the normandy or even shep costs, would it really hurt to try?

Later on we learn that the shadow broker retrieves his probes. They might be broken, but the very fact HE GOT THEM BACK is huge. If you can retrieve them, you just disproved the fact that no one can return, all you have to do is find out what destroyed the probe, and then figure out a way around that. Hell you can ask a few preliminary questions after this point.

1. How was the probe destroyed? Was destroyed by some sort of impact? and if so was smashed flat, or blown apart, pierced? (Which can indicate anything from debris, railgun fire, to misses) Does it show any sign of heat damage? Is it focused on a central point, or encompassed the entire probe? (which can indicate anything from high temperatures, to particle or laser weaponry)

These things can give you an idea what to expect. If the probes are melted, beef up the armor to resist heat. That sort of thing. I mean, if Mordin can figure out the collectors have an artificial base in the center of the galaxy just by pointing to a point on the map, surely he can figure out something more substantial after analyzing the derbis with his high tech lab?

Then we have something neat to try. Saddle a probe up with quantum entanglement, and send it in. In this case it doesn't matter if it doesn't return. You can get information straight from the probe for as long as it transmits, in which case you KNOW what destroyed it. You would know that their is debris right in front of the damn relay, so joker doesn't have to crap his pants right when you exit. If its destroyed by the occuli, then you can prepare for them, maybe get some fighters so you don't have to fight the damn thing in your cargo hold. (I still don't understand why it doesnt just tear up the ship from the inside. Not like it has to stop to fight you.

Sending a probe in has so may pluses with so few negatives that I just don't understand why people are against it. Alerting the enemy isn't much of a problem, they already know you have the IFF, and then knowing doesn't change any defenses they already have in place.

Also unrelated but I have to ask, why don't we ever camp in front of the relay to wait for the damn collector cruiser? An un-upgraded normandy can fight it and kill it (with damage of course, but the normandy is a frigate taking on a cruiser alone, and the cruiser was expecting the normandy.) Since the collectors apparently only have one ship as so many insist, than the day is save an no more colonies are stolen... Yay?

The problem with the Shadow Broker's probes was that, from a out of universe perspective, is that he had a one in a million chance of sending a probe that just happened to land in the safe zone.

Since TIM said he invested all resources into finding a way past the Omega 4 Relay, we can infer that a part of that process would be sending probes, and that they didn't return. It doesn't have to be said.

Also, regarding your 'camping' idea; ships have a drift of up to several thousand or even millions of kilometers when going through a Mass Relay, and this drift can happen in any direction. Blockading a Mass Relay only works when you're trying to prevent a ship from escaping through one.

Modifié par 111987, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[dreman9999]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The normady never had a chance to bombard the ship or destroy it. Horizon they would not be able to attack it, and  when they are on the collector ship, the wanted intell. And destroying the ship would not stop the collectors...They would just build another ship.

What was stopping Joker on Horizon? We already have the Thanix Cannon, which pulverized their ship later on. Exactly, which would delay them, allowing us to gather intel on the Omega 4 Relay or just focus strictly on the pending Reaper invasion while the Collectors are trapped. We could also salvage the remains of the ship after blowing it up.

As for Kasumis role, it more of the case that you may not be able to use the other 2 people. Tali may not be loyal and Legion may not be there.

Kasumi may not be loyal either, and Legion is only not available if you make that decision. Regardless, everyone on the Tech Expert list can hack the door, just only Tali, Legion and Kasumi survive, and only if loyal. The door jamming has nothing to do with their efficiency even, since it simply jams. That is more bad luck than anything else.

 As for the IFF, the know they are attacking but they don't have a arriving zone for the normandy. Every time a ship comes in   from using a relay they have a location where the ship arrives. A drift. They maybe of the arriving point by many km thus giving the ship a wide area to arrive in after using the mass relay. Using the probes will allow the collectors to narrow it down...... We are literally telling them,"We are going to land over here".......
Also, the SB probes did not reach the core, you need the iff for that, which he did not have.

Evidently, that did not seem to bother them since Oculus found the Normandy, which they knew was arriving eventually, and took action. The SB's probe was undetected, so why would ours so easily be found? Using probes would allow us to gauge what their arsenal is and if going through would get us killed or not. What if those Oculus had specifically designed lasers to cripple ships in lieu of just poking holes? We're dead. Now a probe could relay this information back to us, and LotSB tells us they can come back, although we need to improve on the ones he sent. So that's a good start. Moreover, the Collectors have to leave the Relay if they wish to fulfill their flesh bag quota. We, on the other hand, can take our time, and even plan a trap for them. You glossed over that part of my post.

Whats stopping Joker is the fact we need the info on the ship!

How can we get that if we blow it up? Also, the fact that the collector ship has better sensor systems then normal ships, even better than the normandy since is able to find and destroy the normady sr-1. If the normandy tried to come in, the collector would fly off and attack first.

Kasumi is the easiest out of the three to be made loyal. And as a commander who is about to fight an overwhelming enemy, losing people unnecessary is not an option. You never want to do that because it drops your fighting power. The minimal is getting through, but in war your never want to do the minimal.

The Oculus found the normady with it's sensors allow. That gave us a chance to escape. If they set a trap, instead of a few being hidden, you see a large mass of them waiting for you. And as I said before, the probes will give away our landing zone. Now I never said we had to do the attack immediately, just that is has to be more spontaneous. Trying to get more detail on the area is just going to let them know we are attacking. Remember, this is an enemy the never tires. They are not just going to stop setting up a trap if you take longer.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:48 .

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...


The problem with the Shadow Broker's probes was that, from a out of universe perspective, is that he had a one in a million chance of sending a probe that just happened to land in the safe zone.

Since TIM said he invested all resources into finding a way past the Omega 4 Relay, we can infer that a part of that process would be sending probes, and that they didn't return. It doesn't have to be said.

Also, regarding your 'camping' idea; ships have a drift of up to several thousand or even millions of kilometers when going through a Mass Relay, and this drift can happen in any direction. Blockading a Mass Relay only works when you're trying to prevent a ship from escaping through one.

If the shadow broker retrieved his probes WITHOUT the IFF, then so much the better for us with it eh? You also didn't touch on any of my other points.

On my camping idea, I am not talking about a blockade, I am talking about an ambush. Distance doesn't matter much in space, especially when you have one of the fastest ships in the galaxy. Add on a bunch of other ships for the ambush, well there you go! At least you are doing something proactive.