6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Never mind that a destroyed or crippled probe can't send back any information... since there are very probably no FTL comm buoys in "collector territory".

[dreman9999]

x

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:01 .

[Someone With Mass]

I'm pretty sure the ships not returning from the O4R is not a rumor. People would notice if small portions of their fleets went missing.

Also, you'd had to send dozens and dozens of probes with quantum entanglement communication systems and hope that you'll get a fraction of video.

Even if you did, there's nothing you can do about the debris field, even if you know about it. Blowing it up? Considering that something as small a metal bolt can rip a ship apart when it's traveling at those speeds, I wouldn't recommend that.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

Not a quote from the movie, a quote from someone involved in the production.  A lot of other elements were changed between Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner.  


The Reapers or something like the Reapers are a necessity to tell the story that the ME series is telling.  The tomatoes or the like would have been silly, and totally out of touch with the established tone and setting...


If the writers wanted to isolate Shep from the familiar structure of the Alliance, the fleet, and the Council, and from many of his comrades, and put him in a situation of conflicting ethics, morals, and loyalties, then events which put Shep there were necessary to the story.  The particular attack-death-resurrection sequence used wasn't necessary, and was probably even detrimental, as it opened up a lot of completely unneeded holes. 

Turth be told, any plot direction or plot element is not nessisary for a story. The story can be and do anything as long as it's consistant with it's own facts.

For a certain story to be told, certain things become necessary.  If you take out the Reapers from ME, you need something that fulfils the same function, or you have a very different story. 

[Nashiktal]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Never mind that a destroyed or crippled probe can't send back any information... since there are very probably no FTL comm buoys in "collector territory".

You didn't read my post at all did you?

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

111987 wrote...


The problem with the Shadow Broker's probes was that, from a out of universe perspective, is that he had a one in a million chance of sending a probe that just happened to land in the safe zone.

Since TIM said he invested all resources into finding a way past the Omega 4 Relay, we can infer that a part of that process would be sending probes, and that they didn't return. It doesn't have to be said.

Also, regarding your 'camping' idea; ships have a drift of up to several thousand or even millions of kilometers when going through a Mass Relay, and this drift can happen in any direction. Blockading a Mass Relay only works when you're trying to prevent a ship from escaping through one.

If the shadow broker retrieved his probes WITHOUT the IFF, then so much the better for us with it eh? You also didn't touch on any of my other points.

On my camping idea, I am not talking about a blockade, I am talking about an ambush. Distance doesn't matter much in space, especially when you have one of the fastest ships in the galaxy. Add on a bunch of other ships for the ambush, well there you go! At least you are doing something proactive.

Honestly I had a long day and didn't feel like writing a complete rebuttal :Pit was a pretty well-reasoned post anyways.

Distance does matter...The Collectors can just FTL away as soon as they emergy from the Relay.

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...


Honestly I had a long day and didn't feel like writing a complete rebuttal :Pit was a pretty well-reasoned post anyways.

Distance does matter...The Collectors can just FTL away as soon as they emergy from the Relay.

Mmm, good point. Although at the very least cerberus could plant some sensers their to tell us when the collector ship enters or exits the relay.

But still, that is beside the point.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nashiktal wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Never mind that a destroyed or crippled probe can't send back any information... since there are very probably no FTL comm buoys in "collector territory".

You didn't read my post at all did you?

I did.  

Given what else we see in the dossiers and notes and videos you can dig up in the lair after beating the Shadow Broker, the entire collection is obviously either intended to be a farce, or was written by someone with no concept of considering the implications of anything.  The Shadow Broker has basically been granted magical powers if you take any of that crap seriously.   So you're not going to convince me using the "oh well the Broker got some of his probes back" nonsense. 

As for the IFF, it certainly shows a physical object in the game.  It contains software based on the references, but a physical object is shown, and most real-life IFF systems are hardware-based.  So, maybe it's not just a matter of copy and paste to create a new IFF... 

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Fine, but they, were changed from their original form just to be awesome. They weren't military grade, they were just normal. That didn't jive with test-markets, so they were changed to be killing machines with no justification from the original story other than that it was cooler. No explanation for the change, they just did it to add excitement.

It would be nice to have a reference as to why that change was made from the book. 

Phaelducan wrote...
To compare it to ME2 (which in all fairness wasn't adapted, it's an original work), the death was done as a device to add drama, excitement, and take the protagonist out of his situation from the first game. The explanation was given in game for his resurrection, and whether you like the explanation or not, it was at least given. If you don't buy it, fine, but then maybe you aren't really being fair and impartial to the genre as a whole. Sci-fi is rampant with this stuff, and in the case of ME2 it really wasn't just to be cool. It also served the narrative.

The attack, death, and resurection sequence simply wasn't necessary to the narative of ME2.  Give a chance to rewatch the opening and less than an hour, and I could achieve the same effect and get to the same point, without any of the holes and questions.   

No need for the quote from the movie. Fat middle age guy becomes Rutger Hauer. Self explanatory imo.

As to the necessity? Nothing is necessary in a video game. The devs make choices to include various things, but anything could have been replaced. ME didn't need the Reapers, it could have been giant attacking tomatoes. Don't confuse "neccessary" with "pertinent."

Not a quote from the movie, a quote from someone involved in the production.  A lot of other elements were changed between Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner.  


The Reapers or something like the Reapers are a necessity to tell the story that the ME series is telling.  The tomatoes or the like would have been silly, and totally out of touch with the established tone and setting...


If the writers wanted to isolate Shep from the familiar structure of the Alliance, the fleet, and the Council, and from many of his comrades, and put him in a situation of conflicting ethics, morals, and loyalties, then events which put Shep there were necessary to the story.  The particular attack-death-resurrection sequence used wasn't necessary, and was probably even detrimental, as it opened up a lot of completely unneeded holes. 

Turth be told, any plot direction or plot element is not nessisary for a story. The story can be and do anything as long as it's consistant with it's own facts.

For a certain story to be told, certain things become necessary.  If you take out the Reapers from ME, you need something that fulfils the same function, or you have a very different story. 

Yes and no. Yes you need certin thing but nothing is stopping it from being something else. This moreof a case of a metaphore.The write wants to state his case and meaning but he alway has the choice to do that in another way. Something can alway be used in the place of what ever you used. A story can alway go another direction.

[Nashiktal]

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

Even pieces coming back is a one in a million chance.

[Nashiktal]

So we shouldn't try?

Its better to risk that million to one chance on a cheap probe than the normandy.

[Iakus]

Nashiktal wrote...

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

It can be copied.  Save the Collector base and TIM seems to have mass produced IFFs, given the number of ships he sends.

Modifié par iakus, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

It can be copied.  Save the Collector base and TIM seems to have mass produced IFFs, given the number of ships he sends.

What's the time-frame on that? 

[Nashiktal]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

It can be copied.  Save the Collector base and TIM seems to have mass produced IFFs, given the number of ships he sends.

What's the time-frame on that? 

Right after the base is captured and joker reports.

I actually forgot all about that. Well the IFF can be copied. So lets put it on some probes next time! 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

So we shouldn't try?

Its better to risk that million to one chance on a cheap probe than the normandy.

The problem is, how does this enhance the plot, or even progress it?

[Il Divo]

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

So we shouldn't try?

Its better to risk that million to one chance on a cheap probe than the normandy.

The problem is, how does this enhance the plot, or even progress it?

It doesn't. The narrative establishes that it's sheer luck that allowed the Shadowbroker's probe to survive the relay. There is nothing to suggest that this success can even be remotely duplicated, or how TIM could go about it.

[Nashiktal]

It gives shep initiative, rather than a reactionary progression against are enemy. Throughout the entire game, shep and cerberus is seemingly forced to wait and make moves only when the collectors do. We can recruit squadmates, but that is tiny preparation for what we were preparing for.

Come to think of it, for all we knew the trip through the relay could have been an expedition. Atlantis style yo.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Well killjoy, like it or not ALL the DLC is canon. What happens in them actually happens in universe. IF you don't accept it, then you are fighting without a leg. Perhaps he used resources from his dealings with the collectors to do it, but he DID do it.

In any case you are still ignoring what I pointed out about what we CAN learn from probes, intact or not.

I cannot argue with you about the IFF, neither of us has any evidence to say whether or not the IFF could be copied, I will just have to say I disagree.

It can be copied.  Save the Collector base and TIM seems to have mass produced IFFs, given the number of ships he sends.

You only see that when you die. And you don't know how soon that happened. But that obvious now based and what we know now about cerberus in ME3.

[NugatRevolution]

What I never understood is the "Collector Ship" mission.. This is your enemies one method of transport. It's been the only flagship that you've seen, and it's abducting humans... Why not blow it up?

Sure, I can see the necessity for getting Intel, but why not use your already upgraded arsenal (this is assuming you spent the 15k platinum on the cannon already) and blow it to hell? Or plant charges inside the ship while you were on board and blow it to the aforementioned hell?

I can understand the necessity for sacrificing story for the sake of gameplay. i.e. The First 20 minutes of the game could have been cut out and the story would have made sense with minor tweaks. But, it was a simple way of leading to the character/class creation with the story still making sense.

But BW has written a few illogical points in ME2. Nothing major.. But still, the flaws are there.

[Nashiktal]

You could of had the character/class creation by sending shep in a coma for two years, or hell just reset sheps stats without explanation. I would rather story and gameplay be separate than suffer another opening like ME2.

[dreman9999]

NugatRevolution wrote...

What I never understood is the "Collector Ship" mission.. This is your enemies one method of transport. It's been the only flagship that you've seen, and it's abducting humans... Why not blow it up?

Sure, I can see the necessity for getting Intel, but why not use your already upgraded arsenal (this is assuming you spent the 15k platinum on the cannon already) and blow it to hell? Or plant charges inside the ship while you were on board and blow it to the aforementioned hell?

I can understand the necessity for sacrificing story for the sake of gameplay. i.e. The First 20 minutes of the game could have been cut out and the story would have made sense with minor tweaks. But, it was a simple way of leading to the character/class creation with the story still making sense.

But BW has written a few illogical points in ME2. Nothing major.. But still, the flaws are there.

You need the info on the ship to get to the collector base. You try to destory it before getting it and you have no way of knowing how to get there. How would you knw you need an iff to get to the collector base ifyou blow up the collector ship? Any ship the blindly flew in the omega 4 relay never comes back, wouldn'tbe a good idea to knw why before jumping in.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.

Considering that the SR-2 completely unupgraded and with badly damaged sheilds completely decimates the Collector ship in the SM. I would call BS that it could destroy the SR-2 on Horizon. Considering that the Normandy could have both the ship armor and thanix canon upgrades at this point, along with getting the first strike on the cruiser (which is damaged from the colony defence system).

[111987]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.

Considering that the SR-2 completely unupgraded and with badly damaged sheilds completely decimates the Collector ship in the SM. I would call BS that it could destroy the SR-2 on Horizon. Considering that the Normandy could have both the ship armor and thanix canon upgrades at this point, along with getting the first strike on the cruiser (which is damaged from the colony defence system).

Yes, WE know that the Normandy could have taken it, but two things;

1). The squad doesn't know how powerful the Collector Ship is; for all they know, it would be far too powerful to confront.

2). Blowing up the ship means you're killing however many colonists have already been taken aboard...and the whole point of the mission is to save the colonists.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

111987 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.

Considering that the SR-2 completely unupgraded and with badly damaged sheilds completely decimates the Collector ship in the SM. I would call BS that it could destroy the SR-2 on Horizon. Considering that the Normandy could have both the ship armor and thanix canon upgrades at this point, along with getting the first strike on the cruiser (which is damaged from the colony defence system).

Yes, WE know that the Normandy could have taken it, but two things;

1). The squad doesn't know how powerful the Collector Ship is; for all they know, it would be far too powerful to confront.

If Shepard and CO were unsure of how strong the cruiser was then jumping blind into the Omega 4 relay was even more dumb.