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[Nashiktal]

Not to mention its grounded on horizon. That severely limits its capabilities.

[111987]

Lizardviking wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.

Considering that the SR-2 completely unupgraded and with badly damaged sheilds completely decimates the Collector ship in the SM. I would call BS that it could destroy the SR-2 on Horizon. Considering that the Normandy could have both the ship armor and thanix canon upgrades at this point, along with getting the first strike on the cruiser (which is damaged from the colony defence system).

Yes, WE know that the Normandy could have taken it, but two things;

1). The squad doesn't know how powerful the Collector Ship is; for all they know, it would be far too powerful to confront.

If Shepard and CO were unsure of how strong the cruiser was then jumping blind into the Omega 4 relay was even more dumb.

Different situation. On Horizon, a confrontation wasn't necesarry. In the galactic core, it was inevitable.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Not to mention its grounded on horizon. That severely limits its capabilities.

Why risk the Normandy on an optional confrontation? Not to mention the issues that arise from killing all the colonists on board, which as I said, the point of the mission is to save them.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

111987 wrote...
Different situation. On Horizon, a confrontation wasn't necesarry.

Confronting the ship on Horizon was not necessary. But confronting AND destroying it would be a pretty devastating blow to the Collectors by reducing their capacity to harvest colonies.

In the galactic core, it was inevitable.

And that is what makes it silly if they are unsure and believe that the ship might easily defeat the SR-2. Then jumping in blind might not exactly be the best idea. What if there were two unbeatable collector cruisers at the core?

[111987]

Lizardviking wrote...

111987 wrote...
Different situation. On Horizon, a confrontation wasn't necesarry.

Confronting the ship on Horizon was not necessary. But confronting AND destroying it would be a pretty devastating blow to the Collectors by reducing their capacity to harvest colonies.

In the galactic core, it was inevitable.

And that is what makes it silly if they are unsure and believe that the ship might easily defeat the SR-2. Then jumping in blind might not exactly be the best idea. What if there were two unbeatable collector cruisers at the core?

It would be a devastating blow to the Collectors. You know what else would be a devastating blow? Losing Shepard and the Normandy on an assault with an unknown chance of victory.

It's called a Suicide Mission; there aren't any guarantees. If the Collector Ship was unbeatable, then Shepard couldn't have done anything else about it.

[Someone With Mass]

Can't just refuse to take a risk because we don't know all of the outcomes.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Can't just refuse to take a risk because we don't know all of the outcomes.

You realize that arguement applies equally well to duplicating/testing  testing the IFF on probes as immediately strapping it to the Normandy, right?

[Someone With Mass]

iakus wrote...

You realize that arguement applies equally well to duplicating/testing  testing the IFF on probes as immediately strapping it to the Normandy, right?

Yes, but it doesn't make any of those choices invalid either.

[dreman9999]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Horizon....If the Normandy tried to get close, the collect ship would just launch off quickly and destroy it before the normandy gets close. Plus they want the info on the collector ship. Destorying the ship would destroy the info.

Considering that the SR-2 completely unupgraded and with badly damaged sheilds completely decimates the Collector ship in the SM. I would call BS that it could destroy the SR-2 on Horizon. Considering that the Normandy could have both the ship armor and thanix canon upgrades at this point, along with getting the first strike on the cruiser (which is damaged from the colony defence system).

It had to get close to do that and it was moving at high speeds. The normandy can't move that fast planet side, nor any ship due to gravity.

[Arkitekt]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

No, that would equate to average. One review may have been 27% however others had to be steadily higher, some over 50% to reach the overall. What that actually means is some critics hated it, and rightly so, but evidently not all of them.

An average of 50% in RT is generally saying that the movie sucks. A good movie will get a RT score of 90%+. Please get your facts straight. 27% is just garbage. I accept your obligatory retraction.

God forbid ME2 isn't beloved by everyone in every possible way.

Nice comment. Wonder what has anything to do with our discussion...

And if they have a Collector Citadel? Cheers, we all die! If Harbinger has a few dozen ships? Cheers we all die! If there is no means to actually dock the Normandy for our little infiltration team? We're screwed. Basically unless everything goes exactly in our favor, that our pure guesswork there is only that one Collector ship and nothing else in way of opposition, we are doomed. That's a really bad plan.

Normandy SR2 is a stealth ship. Only when they turned on a trojan horse did the Collectors catch them. If the situation is too bad on the other side of the node, they will make the proper survey and perhaps call it a day and flee. If they can't manage to flee, they die. This is why it is called a "suicide mission", if you are catching on. All these possibilities are manageable, since the only way to catch the collectors off-hand and have a chance to "save the lost" is to get the Normandy to jump in a surprise maneuver.

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

[Arkitekt]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Alright there are too many arguments and points for me to follow them, so I am just going to focus on one. Why sending a probe through would not be a waste of time. I'm partially talking to Someone with Mass, but its more of a general talking point.

Also before I begin, we have to remember that shep isn't trying to save his crew from the beginning, that is a variable factor that can happen halfway to the end of the game. I personally didn't get my crew upducted until I emptied the galaxy of quests.

Firstly sending a probe through, even assuming we would not get it back does many things. If we have the IFF, we can test it on the probe. The IFF isn't some sort of one of a kind hardware, its copyable software. Put the IFF on a cheap probe, activate it, and you circumvent any potential viruses or nasty intrusions into the normandy's systems.

It would not stop the collectors from finding the normandy, but it would prevent the normandy from being hacked, and if the normandy isn't hacked, the crew isn't abducted. The only downside I can think of is that EDI would remain shackled, but that could be a point brought up later. (I am using all my points as they were in game, by using the probe they do not know of any traps, they just find out afterward)

Now to the next point, it would be a waste to send probes through. We actually don't know that, at least at first. We hear RUMORS that no ship has ever returned, yet we don't test it before sending our one of a kind warship full of badasses through? A probe is cheap, only a few credits in game, and certainly a drop in the bucket compared to how much the normandy or even shep costs, would it really hurt to try?

Later on we learn that the shadow broker retrieves his probes. They might be broken, but the very fact HE GOT THEM BACK is huge. If you can retrieve them, you just disproved the fact that no one can return, all you have to do is find out what destroyed the probe, and then figure out a way around that. Hell you can ask a few preliminary questions after this point.

1. How was the probe destroyed? Was destroyed by some sort of impact? and if so was smashed flat, or blown apart, pierced? (Which can indicate anything from debris, railgun fire, to misses) Does it show any sign of heat damage? Is it focused on a central point, or encompassed the entire probe? (which can indicate anything from high temperatures, to particle or laser weaponry)

These things can give you an idea what to expect. If the probes are melted, beef up the armor to resist heat. That sort of thing. I mean, if Mordin can figure out the collectors have an artificial base in the center of the galaxy just by pointing to a point on the map, surely he can figure out something more substantial after analyzing the derbis with his high tech lab?

Then we have something neat to try. Saddle a probe up with quantum entanglement, and send it in. In this case it doesn't matter if it doesn't return. You can get information straight from the probe for as long as it transmits, in which case you KNOW what destroyed it. You would know that their is debris right in front of the damn relay, so joker doesn't have to crap his pants right when you exit. If its destroyed by the occuli, then you can prepare for them, maybe get some fighters so you don't have to fight the damn thing in your cargo hold. (I still don't understand why it doesnt just tear up the ship from the inside. Not like it has to stop to fight you.

Sending a probe in has so may pluses with so few negatives that I just don't understand why people are against it. Alerting the enemy isn't much of a problem, they already know you have the IFF, and then knowing doesn't change any defenses they already have in place.

Also unrelated but I have to ask, why don't we ever camp in front of the relay to wait for the damn collector cruiser? An un-upgraded normandy can fight it and kill it (with damage of course, but the normandy is a frigate taking on a cruiser alone, and the cruiser was expecting the normandy.) Since the collectors apparently only have one ship as so many insist, than the day is save an no more colonies are stolen... Yay?

This human understands!

Honestly, couldn't have wrote it better myself mate. This is exactly the issues with just bull rushing the relay.

Of course you couldn't. A pity it is a total pile of garbage, since the problem that stemmed from the IFF that turned the collectors on them would always be found when EDI was trying to understand it. How can EDI study the IFF without it betraying Normandy's position? She can't. QED.

The fact that they "know" you have the IFF does not tell them that you know how to use it. Clearly, the Collectors were surprised by the arrival of the Normandy (only auto probes detected it.. don't ask me how...). How this surprise does not "change" the defenses the Collectors may have against it is a reasoning that goes beyond my ability to irrationalize so I won't comment.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Not that we're given a reason within the game, so we're just guessing, but blasting the ship while it was sitting on the surface may have had a bad outcome for the remaining colonists on the ground.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

Normandy SR2 is a stealth ship. Only when they turned on a trojan horse did the Collectors catch them. If the situation is too bad on the other side of the node, they will make the proper survey and perhaps call it a day and flee. If they can't manage to flee, they die. This is why it is called a "suicide mission", if you are catching on. All these possibilities are manageable, since the only way to catch the collectors off-hand and have a chance to "save the lost" is to get the Normandy to jump in a surprise maneuver.

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

The Normandy's cloak doesn't work on the Collectors, as evidenced by the SR1's destruction.  The Occuli also had no problems tracking them.  The reason why they caught the Collectors off-guard was because they relied on the black holes to keep out most unwanted visitors.  If there had been actual substantive defenses in place, the Normandy would have been chewed up and spit out.  In other words.  Shep should have immediately gone out and bought a lottery ticket, it was his lucky day.

[Xeranx]

Arkitekt wrote...

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

The Shadow Broker sent probes through the relay and they were retrieved.  Why didn't we meet more force when we went through since Shepard wasn't on board when the crew was abducted, and Joker and EDI were able to get away with the IFF still operational?

[Arkitekt]

SB had no intention to attack the Collectors and thus his strategy was clearly well designed. Notice I never said that the problem with that strategy is that the probes "would not return". Perhaps others made that suggestion but I didn't.

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Normandy SR2 is a stealth ship. Only when they turned on a trojan horse did the Collectors catch them. If the situation is too bad on the other side of the node, they will make the proper survey and perhaps call it a day and flee. If they can't manage to flee, they die. This is why it is called a "suicide mission", if you are catching on. All these possibilities are manageable, since the only way to catch the collectors off-hand and have a chance to "save the lost" is to get the Normandy to jump in a surprise maneuver.

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

The Normandy's cloak doesn't work on the Collectors, as evidenced by the SR1's destruction.

SR2's cloak clearly works since the Collectors are only able to track it when it turns on the trojan horse within the reaper IFF. Try again.

The Occuli also had no problems tracking them.

They detected the Normandy when it passed through them. As the lore states elsewhere, Normandy may be stealth but it is still detectable by "watching it with your eyes" (this is clearly stupid, but it is the technobabble story, stuff that you apparently enjoy). Occuli are "eyes". They see the Normandy and attack it.

When I said that the Normandy can escape is by FTL jumping out if the heat turns out to be too much. It then becomes quite impossible to look for it.

The reason why they caught the Collectors off-guard was because they relied on the black holes to keep out most unwanted visitors.  If there had been actual substantive defenses in place, the Normandy would have been chewed up and spit out.  In other words.  Shep should have immediately gone out and bought a lottery ticket, it was his lucky day.

No. What it means is that Shepard was right to attack before betraying his access to the Relay, and thus letting the Collectors know they must place "substantive defenses in place". Shepard is betting that since his arrival will be a surprise, no defenses will be set against it. He was right. You are not. QED 

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

SR2's cloak clearly works since the Collectors are only able to track it when it turns on the trojan horse within the reaper IFF. Try again.

The SR2 uses the same Tantalus drive system as the SR1.  The opening to ME2 clearly shows the Collector Cruiser saw right through their stealth system.  All the IFF did was yell "Look over here!" and keep the Normandy from running away.

They detected the Normandy when it passed through them. As the lore states elsewhere, Normandy may be stealth but it is still detectable by "watching it with your eyes" (this is clearly stupid, but it is the technobabble story, stuff that you apparently enjoy). Occuli are "eyes". They see the Normandy and attack it.

So your saying that they relied on finding a ship in a field full of derelict ships by relying on visual cues?

I think you're taking the Latin word for "eye" a bit too literally 

When I said that the Normandy can escape is by FTL jumping out if the heat turns out to be too much. It then becomes quite impossible to look for it.

Yes, I imagine it's hard to find anything in a black hole...

No. What it means is that Shepard was right to attack before betraying his access to the Relay, and thus letting the Collectors know they must place "substantive defenses in place". Shepard is betting that since his arrival will be a surprise, no defenses will be set against it. He was right. You are not. QED 

Now let's say there had been defenses against it.  Mines.  More oculi.  Defensive fortificatons.  More cruisers or fighters.  External defenses on the base.  Would it have been such a good idea to jump in blind then?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Arkitekt wrote...

An average of 50% in RT is generally saying that the movie sucks. A good movie will get a RT score of 90%+. Please get your facts straight. 27% is just garbage. I accept your obligatory retraction.

If you accept that, then I shall have to disappoint.

Care to quote their rating system, or are just spewing your opinion? 50% would equate to average, or in more simplistic terms, 5.5/10. Like I said before 27% is only a few reviews. I can find those for even good movies simply because one critic hated it. 90% would be considered a phenomenal movie, unless you have ridiculously high standards.

Just because video games with a rating below eight are considered trash by a fair number of people, does not mean it applies to every medium.

Nice comment. Wonder what has anything to do with our discussion...

About as much your attempt at a smug response to Shamus' criticism.

Normandy SR2 is a stealth ship. Only when they turned on a trojan horse did the Collectors catch them. If the situation is too bad on the other side of the node, they will make the proper survey and perhaps call it a day and flee. If they can't manage to flee, they die. This is why it is called a "suicide mission", if you are catching on. All these possibilities are manageable, since the only way to catch the collectors off-hand and have a chance to "save the lost" is to get the Normandy to jump in a surprise maneuver.

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

The Collector cruiser has advanced scanners to thwart the Normandy's stealth systems, as evident by Presley's remark during the intro. It was a suicide mission due to the likely scenario their succeed would go hand in hand with their demise. Your post is better attributed to plain suicide. If the Collectors had any form of defense stationed on the opposite side, we would have been destroyed instantly, invaliding the entire mission. How do we know that is the only method, we never attempt or even hypothesis any alternative. Like I said, we die if they actual had defenses, as Iakus touched on.

No, the fact them succeeding is merely the plot be written to conveniently have the best situation work out, regardless of having incredibly unlikely that was. It has something to do with Shepard's strategy, just sheer dumb luck.

[Xeranx]

Arkitekt wrote...

SB had no intention to attack the Collectors and thus his strategy was clearly well designed. Notice I never said that the problem with that strategy is that the probes "would not return". Perhaps others made that suggestion but I didn't.

But that's assuming the Collectors know that it was the Shadow Broker that sent the probes.  His intention has no relevancy to his strategy as it might have coincided with ours which is to know what's on the other side before we go.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Interesting how little middle ground there is on this thread. I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with people on both sides, sometimes even on the same topic depending on their specific comment.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Interesting how little middle ground there is on this thread. I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with people on both sides, sometimes even on the same topic depending on their specific comment.

We have a saying in sports (hockey for my specific preference) "It's a good trade when both sides can't agree on it"

Basically, it translates to both sides have valid arguments but probably never come to a consensus. 

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 19 septembre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Phaelducan]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

An average of 50% in RT is generally saying that the movie sucks. A good movie will get a RT score of 90%+. Please get your facts straight. 27% is just garbage. I accept your obligatory retraction.

If you accept that, then I shall have to disappoint.

Care to quote their rating system, or are just spewing your opinion? 50% would equate to average, or in more simplistic terms, 5.5/10. Like I said before 27% is only a few reviews. I can find those for even good movies simply because one critic hated it. 90% would be considered a phenomenal movie, unless you have ridiculously high standards.

Just because video games with a rating below eight are considered trash by a fair number of people, does not mean it applies to every medium.

Nice comment. Wonder what has anything to do with our discussion...

About as much your attempt at a smug response to Shamus' criticism.

Normandy SR2 is a stealth ship. Only when they turned on a trojan horse did the Collectors catch them. If the situation is too bad on the other side of the node, they will make the proper survey and perhaps call it a day and flee. If they can't manage to flee, they die. This is why it is called a "suicide mission", if you are catching on. All these possibilities are manageable, since the only way to catch the collectors off-hand and have a chance to "save the lost" is to get the Normandy to jump in a surprise maneuver.

The fact that they did the right thing is that they succeeded. All the other alternatives proposed by Smudboy et al fail 100% of the time, since the probes will alert the Collectors that Shepard is now able to cross the relay and form more proper defenses.

The Collector cruiser has advanced scanners to thwart the Normandy's stealth systems, as evident by Presley's remark during the intro. It was a suicide mission due to the likely scenario their succeed would go hand in hand with their demise. Your post is better attributed to plain suicide. If the Collectors had any form of defense stationed on the opposite side, we would have been destroyed instantly, invaliding the entire mission. How do we know that is the only method, we never attempt or even hypothesis any alternative. Like I said, we die if they actual had defenses, as Iakus touched on.

No, the fact them succeeding is merely the plot be written to conveniently have the best situation work out, regardless of having incredibly unlikely that was. It has something to do with Shepard's strategy, just sheer dumb luck.

It's not acceptable to label a 50% rating as average. Is a 50% on a test score average? No, it's failing. 5.5/10 = a bad game. Pick up any video game magazine from the last 15 years and look at their ratings system. 5-6 = not worth experiencing. Not "opinion" in this case as it's an industry standard. 37% ratings = abyssmal.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...
It's not acceptable to label a 50% rating as average. Is a 50% on a test score average? No, it's failing. 5.5/10 = a bad game. Pick up any video game magazine from the last 15 years and look at their ratings system. 5-6 = not worth experiencing. Not "opinion" in this case as it's an industry standard. 37% ratings = abyssmal.

Partially caused by some review / ratings websites being afraid of angering a published by giving a rating less than 6/10 (or equivalent) to any game from that publisher... 

[Phaelducan]

Straw man. Read Game Informer. They drop 5's all the time. If a game sucks, it sucks. 50% does not equal average.

[111987]

I'm not sure about this, but canonically, doesn't Lair of the Shadow Broker occur after the Suicide Mission? Same as Arrival. Weren't they described as a 'bridge' between ME2 and ME3?