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[Arkitekt]

Phaelducan wrote...

Besides, we already have examples in the ME universe of reaper technology doing bizarro things. Why can you suspend for some but not the other? 

Because that would end the whining. We can't have that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I certainly don't intend to imply that about anyone. 

What I meant by "sad" is that, from a writing perspective, this entire mess was avoidable with a minimum of effort. 
It would have been easy to destroy the Normandy SR1, scatter the squad and crew, and put Shepard into the situation of needing to hold his nose and work with Cerberus, and not make anyone stop and say "Huh?" 

So... why go the way they did? 

Life and death are almost universal aspects of human interest. They fascinate (most) people, and are incredibly useful tools in a narrative of any kind, but particularly in interactive ones such as video games. They could have done what you suggest, and I'm sure it would have been fine, but for Shepard to actually die and be brought back to life (most likely involving Reaper tech, another integral fascet of the narrative) is powerful, exciting, and engaging.

It's not "rule of cool" since it actually does impact the narrative and give context to Shep's actions in the game, and it also is functional in terms of fulfilling a game mechanic issue (respec/reskin). Feel free to hate it, but it isn't fair to deride it as a deus ex machina. 

I'm not even objecting to bringing Shep back from the dead or a severe coma. 

I'm just put off by the graphic detail they give us of the damage to Shep's brain (and they do, if you're at all willing to read between the lines at all), and then the magical restoration of Shep's personality and memories from that state -- with a sudden lack of details as to how. 

That's one of the hallmarks of the genre though. We don't have the technology for most science fiction settings, so it would be unrealistic for developers to use modern day scientific explanations for medical procedures taking place potentially hundreds of years in the future in some examples. 

Besides, we already have examples in the ME universe of reaper technology doing bizarro things. Why can you suspend for some but not the other? 

First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Besides, we already have examples in the ME universe of reaper technology doing bizarro things. Why can you suspend for some but not the other? 

Because that would end the whining. We can't have that.

Is that sort of comment at all necessary?   You note that others are derisive and belittling, and then you brush off the opinions of those who don't agree with you as "whining"?  

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I certainly don't intend to imply that about anyone. 

What I meant by "sad" is that, from a writing perspective, this entire mess was avoidable with a minimum of effort. 
It would have been easy to destroy the Normandy SR1, scatter the squad and crew, and put Shepard into the situation of needing to hold his nose and work with Cerberus, and not make anyone stop and say "Huh?" 

So... why go the way they did? 

Life and death are almost universal aspects of human interest. They fascinate (most) people, and are incredibly useful tools in a narrative of any kind, but particularly in interactive ones such as video games. They could have done what you suggest, and I'm sure it would have been fine, but for Shepard to actually die and be brought back to life (most likely involving Reaper tech, another integral fascet of the narrative) is powerful, exciting, and engaging.

It's not "rule of cool" since it actually does impact the narrative and give context to Shep's actions in the game, and it also is functional in terms of fulfilling a game mechanic issue (respec/reskin). Feel free to hate it, but it isn't fair to deride it as a deus ex machina. 

I'm not even objecting to bringing Shep back from the dead or a severe coma. 

I'm just put off by the graphic detail they give us of the damage to Shep's brain (and they do, if you're at all willing to read between the lines at all), and then the magical restoration of Shep's personality and memories from that state -- with a sudden lack of details as to how. 

That's one of the hallmarks of the genre though. We don't have the technology for most science fiction settings, so it would be unrealistic for developers to use modern day scientific explanations for medical procedures taking place potentially hundreds of years in the future in some examples. 

Besides, we already have examples in the ME universe of reaper technology doing bizarro things. Why can you suspend for some but not the other? 

First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
Besides, we already have examples in the ME universe of reaper technology doing bizarro things. Why can you suspend for some but not the other? 

Because that would end the whining. We can't have that.

Is that sort of comment at all necessary?   You note that others are derisive and belittling, and then you brush off the opinions of those who don't agree with you as "whining"?  

Well, he's probably frustrated and tired of this nonsense. I know I am. The only reason I stick around is the vain hope that someday this forum will be restored to a decent place to post. Lotion pretty much ruined that hope for this thread, but there is always another day.

Also, with all the Bioware bashing which pops up, I like to throw in counterpoints just in the hope that they realize (and I think they do) that much of the criticism for ME2 is way in the minority and at least to some of us, unfounded (again, not including the lackluster customization, shallow RPG elements, and some other things already being addressed for ME3).

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Thing is, you keep inventing things, how can I not make snarky comments? Where are "all the comments" about how damaged "Shep's brain was"? I see NONE, ZERO. "Meat and tubes"? Jacob's jest as medical evidence now? We've covered this already, it's ridiculous. If you refer to the images they show, you should watch it better. If you bother to look at the skeleton, you'll see that the skull is intact. When a brain animation comes forth, it shows the synapses (probably to highlight that they are trying or managing to light them up). There is no "comment" or any evidence whatsoever showing "how damaged Shep's brain was".

Modifié par Arkitekt, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Thing is, you keep inventing things, how can I not make snarky comments? Where are "all the comments" about how damaged "Shep's brain was"? I see NONE, ZERO. "Meat and tubes"? Jacob's jest as medical evidence now? We've covered this already, it's ridiculous. If you refer to the images they show, you should watch it better. If you bother to look at the skeleton, you'll see that the skull is intact. When a brain animation comes forth, it shows the synapses (probably to highlight that they are trying or managing to light them up). There is no "comment" or any evidence whatsoever showing "how damaged Shep's brain was".

So Lawson's and Wilson's comments about how damaged Shep's body was don't count?  What we know Shep's body went through doesn't count? 

The damage they describe would affect the brain more than any other part of the body, not less.  Oxygen deprivation, vacuum exposure, freezing damage, possibly thermal, etc.  The lack of damage to the skull only precludes gross physical damage of the sort that would damage the bones of the skull, and nothing else. 


There seems to be a double standard on both extremes of this thread.  One extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to criticize ME2, and the other extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to dismiss any criticism. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Thompson family]

Arkitekt wrote...


 Where are "all the comments" about how damaged "Shep's brain was"? I see NONE, ZERO. ... If you bother to look at the skeleton, you'll see that the skull is intact. When a brain animation comes forth, it shows the synapses (probably to highlight that they are trying or managing to light them up). There is no "comment" or any evidence whatsoever showing "how damaged Shep's brain was".

I've managed to stay off this thread for days, but I happened to see this comment and must second it. I, too, tried hard and failed to find any evidence whatsoever of injury to the brain. This exploration was part of an entirely different thread in a debate that took place about a year ago.

I loaded a new game and took a very, very careful look at the skull during the reconstruction sequences. The skull was intact. If somebody can download or link to an image, I believe this will be plainly visible.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

[Thompson family]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So Lawson's and Wilson's comments about how damaged Shep's body was don't count?  What we know Shep's body went through doesn't count?

His/her body was smashed. That is clearly visible in the "reconstruction" sequence.

The damage they describe would affect the brain more than any other part of the body, not less.  Oxygen deprivation, vacuum exposure, freezing damage, possibly thermal, etc.

While it is admittedly ludicrous to talk about somebody surviving re-entry in a spacesuit, it is as logical as such an argument gets to believe that the suit and helmet protects the brain better than anything else.

There seems to be a double standard on both extremes of this thread.  One extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to criticize ME2, and the other extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to dismiss any criticism. 

It is not extrapolation from known facts to say that Shep's brain was ravaged. Extrapolation from known facts instead leads to the conclusion it was d*** near the only thing left of him/her, and the one body organ encased inside a helmet that might acutally have survived re-entry and impact, as ludicrous as it is to believe that anything could have survived.

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

Modifié par Thompson family, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So Lawson's and Wilson's comments about how damaged Shep's body was don't count?  What we know Shep's body went through doesn't count?

Of course it counts, it just doesn't tell the story that you are trying to tell. 

The damage they describe would affect the brain more than any other part of the body, not less.  Oxygen deprivation, vacuum exposure, freezing damage, possibly thermal, etc.  

Thing is, you just don't know. You are speculating over things you have no idea. Smudboy did the same. I take it like a black box. If Shepard's alive, then somehow his body made it sufficiently well to be retrievable.

There seems to be a double standard on both extremes of this thread.  One extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to criticize ME2, and the other extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to dismiss any criticism. 

You are confusing lack of exposure with plot holes. If the plot does not explicitly tell us how Shepard body managed to not be utterly destroyed, this does not mean that the body should have been destroyed. It means the exact opposite, it just wasn't explained how so. I have much less problems with people saying things like "Ok, I'm a geek and I'd love to have a conversation with someone about the Lazarus Project, something I never get to have", this is a-ok. A good criticism (albeit obviously small). But to discuss with people who know so little about atmospheric physics and what can and cannot happen to a human body but still are so adamantly sure it couldn't possibly have happened is mind-boggling.

[Fixers0]

Thompson family wrote...

I've managed to stay off this thread for days, but I happened to see this comment and must second it. I, too, tried hard and failed to find any evidence whatsoever of injury to the brain. This exploration was part of an entirely different thread in a debate that took place about a year ago.

I loaded a new game and took a very, very careful look at the skull during the reconstruction sequences. The skull was intact. If somebody can download or link to an image, I believe this will be plainly visible.

And there's the problem, If a guy is explosivly proppeld towards a planet there shouln'd be anything to collect he should be splat towards the service, the ressurection cutscene and notion of "meat and tubes" is logically and scientifically false to begin with, without proper expostion and properly explained fiction this is what breaks the suspension of disbelief and still makes it a case of bad writing.


Personally i prefer a fictional explanation to the entire subject of ressurection was handled entirly with fiction, with a connection to the reaper technolgy and passable reason of at leas some of Shepards body remaining intact.

[Arkitekt]

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

[Arkitekt]

Fixers0 wrote...

And there's the problem, If a guy is explosivly proppeld towards a planet there shouln'd be anything to collect he should be splat towards the service, the ressurection cutscene and notion of "meat and tubes" is logically and scientifically false to begin with, without proper expostion and properly explained fiction this is what breaks the suspension of disbelief and still makes it a case of bad writing.

Please. What do you know of extra-terrestrial atmosphere reentry physics to state such a dogmatic nonsensical paragraph?

Don't even bother to answer, we all know the answer to that one.

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So Lawson's and Wilson's comments about how damaged Shep's body was don't count?  What we know Shep's body went through doesn't count?

Of course it counts, it just doesn't tell the story that you are trying to tell. 

The damage they describe would affect the brain more than any other part of the body, not less.  Oxygen deprivation, vacuum exposure, freezing damage, possibly thermal, etc.  

Thing is, you just don't know. You are speculating over things you have no idea. Smudboy did the same. I take it like a black box. If Shepard's alive, then somehow his body made it sufficiently well to be retrievable.

There seems to be a double standard on both extremes of this thread.  One extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to criticize ME2, and the other extreme is only willing to extrapolate from known facts where it allows them to dismiss any criticism. 

You are confusing lack of exposure with plot holes. If the plot does not explicitly tell us how Shepard body managed to not be utterly destroyed, this does not mean that the body should have been destroyed. It means the exact opposite, it just wasn't explained how so. I have much less problems with people saying things like "Ok, I'm a geek and I'd love to have a conversation with someone about the Lazarus Project, something I never get to have", this is a-ok. A good criticism (albeit obviously small). But to discuss with people who know so little about atmospheric physics and what can and cannot happen to a human body but still are so adamantly sure it couldn't possibly have happened is mind-boggling.

I've never said that Shep's body would be destroyed.  Please note that I was the guy who went into the reality of high-altitude falls, atmospheric entry, etc, to explain how Shep's body could have remained intact and even restorable despite the fall -- that it's not 100% impossible that Shep could have survived the fall had we not seen the air supply on the suit ruined. 

But when I listen to Miranda's comments, Wilson's comments, Liara's comments, etc... it becomes very hard to conclude that Shep's brain still "contained enough Shep" to restore. 

[Thompson family]

Arkitekt wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

Vastness is a valid point, Arkitekt, but the Reaper in this case presumably had a mission and was attacked. For example, if a U.S. Navy submarine was out on a mission in the Pacific and disappeared, the Navy would have at least a general idea of when and where it was when it disappeared. Now, there are submarines from all combatant nations that disappeared and were never found (which supports your view) but the Reapers have had at least 780 tries to search again, the same evidence of the "Great Rift" on Klendegon to work with as the humans and so forth -- and the added urgency of needing to find the body of their dead comrade to preserve the secrecy of the Cycle.

[aznricepuff]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

Actually, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you can't recover memories from DNA alone. It takes about 5 seconds and an 8th grade education to reach that conclusion. You have the same DNA when you die as when you were born, yet you would have accumulated a lifetime's worth of memories in that time. Or you can think about it like this: your DNA comes from your parents; why don't you have fragments of your parents' memories at birth?

[111987]

Thompson family wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

Vastness is a valid point, Arkitekt, but the Reaper in this case presumably had a mission and was attacked. For example, if a U.S. Navy submarine was out on a mission in the Pacific and disappeared, the Navy would have at least a general idea of when and where it was when it disappeared. Now, there are submarines from all combatant nations that disappeared and were never found (which supports your view) but the Reapers have had at least 780 tries to search again, the same evidence of the "Great Rift" on Klendegon to work with as the humans and so forth -- and the added urgency of needing to find the body of their dead comrade to preserve the secrecy of the Cycle.

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

[Arkitekt]

I don't see how. Shep's brain was probably in good shape. What "killed Shepard" was the rest of his body, which was apparently smashed. If right after the shock towards the ground he was covered with ice (just like the ice that covers most of the SR1 crash site), and if the temperature was cool enough, his brain could have been spared quite easily. It just went into natural stasis.

[Arkitekt]

111987 wrote...

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

Uh! Nice one.

[aznricepuff]

Thompson family wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

Vastness is a valid point, Arkitekt, but the Reaper in this case presumably had a mission and was attacked. For example, if a U.S. Navy submarine was out on a mission in the Pacific and disappeared, the Navy would have at least a general idea of when and where it was when it disappeared. Now, there are submarines from all combatant nations that disappeared and were never found (which supports your view) but the Reapers have had at least 780 tries to search again, the same evidence of the "Great Rift" on Klendegon to work with as the humans and so forth -- and the added urgency of needing to find the body of their dead comrade to preserve the secrecy of the Cycle.

You're assuming that the Reapers would care enough to try to recover the corpse. Maybe after however long they've been around, they've gotten arrogant and just assumed that whatever technology or information could be gleaned from the corpse wouldn't help that much against their invasion. Same reason they left all those prothean beacons intact (apparently for Saren and his geth to try to destroy 50K years later).

[Fixers0]

Arkitekt wrote...

Please. What do you know of extra-terrestrial atmosphere reentry physics to state such a dogmatic nonsensical paragraph?

We know the codex data from the planet alchera, It's also pretty common knowledge that if someone  falls from orbit, there probably would't be much left of them,

You're again trying to parade my point with speculation, we got codex data, we got science, we got logic, we got ressurection, we just don't got context in which this all hapens.

ad that's why we have this:

''In Regards to me using science or others trying to explain how things work with math, that's done because of the poor storytelling or the poor exposition of the fiction which happens to be science.
There is nothing stopping a writer explaining their fictional universe by fictional means the writer has to show or tell the audiance in the right way. Content is not as important as context, which is how you tell the story, meaning the details of science-fiction isn't as important how it is presented.
If it's not presented right, then we have to fallback on trying to make sense of what's going on, why characters are behaving a certain way, and why scenes are unfolding the way they are.
We use science, logic, math or even the codex because those particular kinds of issues are raised, not necessarily because they are about sciece, logic or math.

[Arkitekt]

azn, I think 111987's point is the right one. It ends that discussion pronto.

[Thompson family]

111987 wrote...


Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

TIM: "This is a relic from a battle that was waged when mammals took their first steps upon the Earth."