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[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

I'm not making this up, really.  The basic physiology of memory makes simply growing cloned neurons a non-starter for recovering memory and learned/developed personality. 

http://en.wikipedia....atomy_of_memory

The cloned cells won't contain the cellular elements of memory, which aren't genetic in nature, and the structural elements of memory are entirely lost with the loss of the structure. 


Claiming that memory can be recovered from a heavily damaged brain by cellular cloning -- is like claiming that the Mono Lisa could be recovered after being burned because you were able to duplicate the paints used by Da Vinci... 

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

Vastness is a valid point, Arkitekt, but the Reaper in this case presumably had a mission and was attacked. For example, if a U.S. Navy submarine was out on a mission in the Pacific and disappeared, the Navy would have at least a general idea of when and where it was when it disappeared. Now, there are submarines from all combatant nations that disappeared and were never found (which supports your view) but the Reapers have had at least 780 tries to search again, the same evidence of the "Great Rift" on Klendegon to work with as the humans and so forth -- and the added urgency of needing to find the body of their dead comrade to preserve the secrecy of the Cycle.

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

The weapon that killed it and the rift on Klendagon are both dated at 37 million YBP, aren't they? 

[Thompson family]

Arkitekt wrote...

111987 wrote...

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

Uh! Nice one.

See my response.

[Arkitekt]

Fixers0 wrote...

We know the codex data from the planet alchera, It's also pretty common knowledge that if someone  falls from orbit, there probably would't be much left of them,

And that's your problem right there. "Common knowledge" is mostly bunk. Of course if someone falls from 10km he might as well call himself dead. Apparently however there have been cases where people survived such falls (not have his skull intact, mind you, but actually survived). Common knowledge to the garbage bin then.

IOW, you are parading common sense as a substitution for actual physics. Perhaps you can fool eight year olds with that one.

You're again trying to parade my point with speculation, we got codex data, we got science, we got logic, we got ressurection, we just don't got context in which this all hapens.

I see no science in your comments. Only talk. And talk is cheap.

[Arkitekt]

Thompson family wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

111987 wrote...

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

Uh! Nice one.

See my response.

The plot thickens...

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm not making this up, really.  The basic physiology of memory makes simply growing cloned neurons a non-starter for recovering memory and learned/developed personality. 

http://en.wikipedia....atomy_of_memory

The cloned cells won't contain the cellular elements of memory, which aren't genetic in nature, and the structural elements of memory are entirely lost with the loss of the structure. 


Claiming that memory can be recovered from a heavily damaged brain by cellular cloning -- is like claiming that the Mono Lisa could be recovered after being burned because you were able to duplicate the paints used by Da Vinci... 

Spare the analogy (which is a debatable one btw), I don't understand how people still confuse DNA with memory...

[Thompson family]

To spare people from having to scroll back to find it, here was my response to the "37 million" question.

Thompson family wrote...

111987 wrote...


Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

TIM: "This is a relic from a battle that was waged when mammals took their first steps upon the Earth."

Modifié par Thompson family, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:24 .

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Calling everybody who disagrees with a particular argument as a BioWare apologist is juvenile. In my own case, I've been very critical (on other threads) of the contrivance of a Reaper corpse being left in orbit for 37 million years, or 780 of the 50K "Reaper cycles" with an intact IFF aboard, to cite just one example.

This would be a more interesting segway. I think that is a nice criticism. However, I just want to say something: Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.

Vastness is a valid point, Arkitekt, but the Reaper in this case presumably had a mission and was attacked. For example, if a U.S. Navy submarine was out on a mission in the Pacific and disappeared, the Navy would have at least a general idea of when and where it was when it disappeared. Now, there are submarines from all combatant nations that disappeared and were never found (which supports your view) but the Reapers have had at least 780 tries to search again, the same evidence of the "Great Rift" on Klendegon to work with as the humans and so forth -- and the added urgency of needing to find the body of their dead comrade to preserve the secrecy of the Cycle.

Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

The weapon that killed it and the rift on Klendagon are both dated at 37 million YBP, aren't they? 

Oh yes, you are quite right! My mistake. The Codex entry on Klendagon dates the Great Rift as 37 million years old.

Does that mean the Derelict Reaper was just a 'newborn' when it was killed? Perhaps...

In any case, there are a number of possibilities as to why the Reapers never found the corpse. One theory I have is that the DR could have been a vanguard in one of the cycles, and thus was killed when no other Reapers were in the galaxy. Or perhaps, the Reapers did know about the corpse and didn't care; after all, no-one else would know it is a part of a sentient machine race that wishes to harvest/destroy all organic life. It would just be a massive and technologically impressive ship that would undoubtedly indoctrinate people, which only furthers the Reaper's goals.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fixers0 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Please. What do you know of extra-terrestrial atmosphere reentry physics to state such a dogmatic nonsensical paragraph?

We know the codex data from the planet alchera, It's also pretty common knowledge that if someone  falls from orbit, there probably would't be much left of them,

Well, to be accurate...  

Much of the friction in atmospheric entry is caused by orbital velocity, not by falling velocity.  Men have actually jumped from over 100000 feet, reaching a freefall speed of over 600 mph, and safely landed by parachute after deploying at around 5000 feet.   Once you reach terminal velocity in an atmosphere, you can't go any faster, and falling from higher doesn't make the fall any more dangerous or damaging.   And people have survived falls from over 30000 feet without paracutes. 

So no, it's not guaranteed that Shep's body would be crushed into hamburger at impact... 

This was all covered earlier in the thread. 

[Phaelducan]

aznricepuff wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

Actually, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you can't recover memories from DNA alone. It takes about 5 seconds and an 8th grade education to reach that conclusion. You have the same DNA when you die as when you were born, yet you would have accumulated a lifetime's worth of memories in that time. Or you can think about it like this: your DNA comes from your parents; why don't you have fragments of your parents' memories at birth?

That isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about recreating someone's brain from their own brain tissue. That's not even the same discussion.

[Fixers0]

Arkitekt wrote...



And that's your problem right there. "Common knowledge" is mostly bunk. Of course if someone falls from 10km he might as well call himself dead. Apparently however there have been cases where people survived such falls (not have his skull intact, mind you, but actually survived). Common knowledge to the garbage bin then.

And yet still more people have died from falling then survived, it helps that we're talking about someone who is traveling a explosive velocity into a planet , not someone who falls from a skyscrapper.


And what's you're actual point here anyway ,See if someone is falling into planet allready seen burning up because of athmospheric re-netry and then ramming right into that planet, and lying there from extended periods of time exposing what's left of his body (inf any) exposed to gasses like ammonia and methane you kind of want the narative to explain it.

Again a fictional explanation would work the best here.

Arkitekt wrote...
I see no science in your comments. Only talk. And talk is cheap.

I'm looking at the narative, you know the story we've been discussing for a while

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I've never said that Shep's body would be destroyed.  Please note that I was the guy who went into the reality of high-altitude falls, atmospheric entry, etc, to explain how Shep's body could have remained intact and even restorable despite the fall -- that it's not 100% impossible that Shep could have survived the fall had we not seen the air supply on the suit ruined. 

But when I listen to Miranda's comments, Wilson's comments, Liara's comments, etc... it becomes very hard to conclude that Shep's brain still "contained enough Shep" to restore. 

Like I've said, I'll give Bioware the "Shep's body wasn't destroyed" issue, if they can explain how tehy got Shep's brain restarted and back in perfect working order.

Even without trauma from blows to the head, fire, cold, or toxins, there's still good old fashioned cerebral hypoxia
Just cut off oxygen to the brain for a few minutes, and even if you can revive the person, there's no guarantee they'll be entirely the same again.  You don't need an explosion or an orbital drop to cause this.  Just air running out of a suit.

That is what I think of when Miranda talks about the possibility of Shepard's mind being altered.  Not just a control chip.  Not just mental trauma.  Simple oxygen starvation and toxin buildup.  

Modifié par iakus, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:47 .

[Arkitekt]

Fixers0 wrote...

And yet still more people have died from falling then survived, it helps that we're talking about someone who is traveling a explosive velocity into a planet , not someone who falls from a skyscrapper.

I don't know any skyscrapper 10km high for ****s sake. And what do you call "explosive velocity", since you have no way of knowing how fast was Shepard going when he / she was blasted from the Normandy in relation to the planet? Again letting your own imagination limiting what you cannot know.

And what's you're actual point here anyway ,See if someone is falling into planet allready seen burning up because of athmospheric re-netry and then ramming right into that planet, and lying there from extended periods of time exposing what's left of his body (inf any) exposed to gasses like ammonia and methane you kind of want the narative to explain it.

He's not actually burning, he's just frictioning a little . The narrative explains it well: he fell he got his bones crushed, skull survived, was restored into action with expensive tech. That's all we need to know.

Again a fictional explanation would work the best here.

And until Bioware feeds your hunger, you are unable to fill the gaps. Guess what, this is more about you than about ME2 plot's faults.

I'm looking at the narative, you know the story we've been discussing for a while

You were speaking about the science, don't evade. You talk about science, but talk is cheap. As far as I can see, you show little knowledge of even the basics of atmosphere reentry to speak so adamantly about it.

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

Even without trauma from blows to the head, fire, cold, or toxins, there's still good old fashioned cerebral hypoxia
Just cut off oxygen to the brain for a few minutes, and even if you can revive the person, there's no guarantee they'll be entirely the same again.  You don't need an explosion or an orbital drop to cause this.  Just air running out of a suit.
 

This was explained to you n times already. If you are being put into stasis, cerebral hypoxia does not happen, period.

[KotorEffect3]

well this dead horse certainly has endurance. Of all the things to keep going on about there are more interesting aspects to the story than the details of Shepard's death. You could talk about collectors being repurposed protheans, reapers made up of organic species, the genophage, geth/quarian conflict, even conrad verner. Stop beating the shepard's death and lazarus project horse to death.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

Actually, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you can't recover memories from DNA alone. It takes about 5 seconds and an 8th grade education to reach that conclusion. You have the same DNA when you die as when you were born, yet you would have accumulated a lifetime's worth of memories in that time. Or you can think about it like this: your DNA comes from your parents; why don't you have fragments of your parents' memories at birth?

That isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about recreating someone's brain from their own brain tissue. That's not even the same discussion.

I was talking about the implausibilty of restoring someone's memories and personality from a severely damaged brain...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

To which you responded: 

Phaelducan wrote...
You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now

And to be honest, we do know that.

BTW, I'm trying to consistently apply the same level of realism to the entire sequence, thus my rebuttal of the notion that Shep's body could never have remained intact after a fall from space. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even without trauma from blows to the head, fire, cold, or toxins, there's still good old fashioned cerebral hypoxia
Just cut off oxygen to the brain for a few minutes, and even if you can revive the person, there's no guarantee they'll be entirely the same again.  You don't need an explosion or an orbital drop to cause this.  Just air running out of a suit.
 

This was explained to you n times already. If you are being put into stasis, cerebral hypoxia does not happen, period.

Unfortunately for Shep, cerebral hypoxia sets in long before he could have been in any kind of stasis.   The fall alone takes longer, and Alchera isn't going to quick-freeze a human body. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...
He's not actually burning, he's just frictioning a little . The narrative explains it well: he fell he got his bones crushed, skull survived, was restored into action with expensive tech. That's all we need to know.

That's not all I need to know... I don't like unexplained or handwaved contradictions in my ficiton. 

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
First, all they needed to do was skip all the "meat and tubes" details, all the comments about how damaged Shep's brain was, and just say "luckily, you were recovered in time and put in stasis".  Simple change.  It's that they went out of their way to establish just how far beyond recoverable the damage was and then handwaved the recovery that's so jolting. 

Second, I've not seen anything to convince me that Shep's resurrection had anything to do with "reaper tech".   And really, I'm leary of "reaper tech did it" as a cheap out. 

To be clear, what they claim happened with Shep's brain amounts to incinerating a piece of paper, disolving the ashes in acid, scattering the resulting goop into the ocean... and then saying "we can still read the print". 

I don't think that's a valid comparison at all. Also, whether reaper tech was involved or not is irrelevant, and wasn't my point anyway. The fact that reaper tech is in the game at all means that crazy stuff has already happened. Show me a scientific explanation for the Saren/Sovereign thing and then maybe I'd listen to your objection with less skepticism. 

As to the process of Shep's recovery.. the meat and tubes objection you have... if there was any trace DNA at all it's plausible NOW that some scientist could grow something in a tube resembling human tissue. Dolly the Sheep was more than a decade ago. Is Shep a clone? No, but I guarantee they used cloning technology. Again, this is tech we nearly have today. If there was a dried up raisin left of Shepard's tissue, that's enough to at least give the explanation the benefit of the doubt. If his suit cracked and most of him shot out into space via explosive decompression there would STILL be DNA left. It's also plausible to assume that in the time before ME, the human genome has been completely mapped and recreated in all forms.

Again, we can "almost" do a lot of Lazarus now, it's just too expensive/illegal (constraints which don't apply to Cerberus).

Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

(PS, explosive decompression as you describe is an urban myth.)

To be fair, yes, some "bizarro" stuff happens in the ME setting.  I've just never accepted the "once crazy stuff starts happening, there's no limit" standard that some fans (fans in general, not just fans of ME2) seem to adhere to. 

You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now. Also, I'm not saying he would have explosively decompressed, I'm just saying is even if he got the "sucked through a straw" treatment like the Alien baby in Resurrection there would still have been recoverable tissue. 

You are trying to selectively apply realism with the sequence.

Actually, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you can't recover memories from DNA alone. It takes about 5 seconds and an 8th grade education to reach that conclusion. You have the same DNA when you die as when you were born, yet you would have accumulated a lifetime's worth of memories in that time. Or you can think about it like this: your DNA comes from your parents; why don't you have fragments of your parents' memories at birth?

That isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about recreating someone's brain from their own brain tissue. That's not even the same discussion.

I was talking about the implausibilty of restoring someone's memories and personality from a severely damaged brain...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Can't recover memory or much of personality from DNA. 

To which you responded: 

Phaelducan wrote...
You don't know that. Pure conjecture about what is potentially recoverable from cloned tissue. You are making things up now

And to be honest, we do know that.

BTW, I'm trying to consistently apply the same level of realism to the entire sequence, thus my rebuttal of the notion that Shep's body could never have remained intact after a fall from space. 

No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even without trauma from blows to the head, fire, cold, or toxins, there's still good old fashioned cerebral hypoxia
Just cut off oxygen to the brain for a few minutes, and even if you can revive the person, there's no guarantee they'll be entirely the same again.  You don't need an explosion or an orbital drop to cause this.  Just air running out of a suit.
 

This was explained to you n times already. If you are being put into stasis, cerebral hypoxia does not happen, period.

hypoxia set in within minutes.  Heck it was probably happening before Shep even hit the ground.  And that's assuming lying in a snowbank can put Shepard into "stasis" rather than just make him really really cold.

[Xeranx]

Phaelducan wrote...

A sample size of 2500 is pretty good. Is it the whole population? Of course not, which is why any kind of polling isn't exact, but you do get a pretty good sense of where approval ratings lie with a sampling of 2500. Anything over 1000 is usually considered scientifically valid (again, with the understanding that there will be margin of error, usually 3-5%). You are saying we can't use ANY industry measurables since they aren't accurate. That's false. Can we use them to 100% verify what the entire 6 million or so population thinks of the game? Of course not, but we can get a VERY good idea of what most people think by looking at review aggregates from both users and reviewers. Sometimes you get skewed results (like with DA2 and user reviews) but overall it's a pretty good tool. For that matter, there are fairly small deviations even within a sample size of 100 for most consumer products.

You are trying to throw out data because you don't like it. Stop that. 

I'm saying if there were industry measurables (standards) for reviews then it would be fine to use them, but there aren't any standards of review despite your claims that there are.  So to keep insisting that there are standards is false.  To call a silent majority ("millions of people agree" - usually the most invoked statement) when that majority can't be accounted for - because the polling is not conducted for any real measure of the population that bought the game and it's entirely voluntary - is also false.

You're trying to use a standard that doesn't exist and therefore can't be relied upon to back up your claims. You're also telling me a sample size of 2500 is good, but you didn't pick a sample size or decide on your margins for error.  Nor were any review sites collating data for the specific task of measuring customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction so that you could use it for any accurate measure.  What good is the data you bring forth if at least these factors exist and can ruin your results?

I'm not throwing data out because I don't like it as you claim.  I'm throwing data out because without any parameters for how you arrived at your claims any data you present is useless.  9 out of 10 people think Smudboy is a saint.  How did I arrive at that result?  What methods did I use?  Is it true or do I use it simply because it fits with my stance?  If I can't answer both questions in bold my claim in italics is worthless and only my latter statement can be considered and it would be summarily thrown out on the grounds of it being an opinion rather than a statistical fact.

So, again, please stop using this in your arguments.

[Iakus]

Phaelducan wrote...

No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

And this is what happens when we have no 23rd century context to base conjectures on.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Actually the intro clip pretty much indicates Shepard suffocated before even reaching Alchera's orbit, let alone anything else. I can concede the argument of her body being pulverized but like others here I want exposition on how her memories were restored flawlessly. If BioWare can go into explicit insinuations of how damaged Shepard was, then they can take an addition few minutes to explain how the brain survived. Frankly, this could all have been avoided with the escape pod angle or any number of details.

No handwaving, which is essentially what they did.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 20 septembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[Phaelducan]

iakus wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

And this is what happens when we have no 23rd century context to base conjectures on.

Which is why to enjoy science fiction, one generally has to give writers some benefit of the doubt. Without concrete evidence showing us that Shep can't be resurrected, I trust the writers.

[didymos1120]

Thompson family wrote...

To spare people from having to scroll back to find it, here was my response to the "37 million" question.

Thompson family wrote...

111987 wrote...


Who said the Derelict Reaper has been dead for 37 million years? It could have been killed last cycle for all we know.

People always confuse this point; just cause the Reaper is 37 million years old doesn't mean it's been dead that long.

TIM: "This is a relic from a battle that was waged when mammals took their first steps upon the Earth."

Of course, TIM was a bit off there: the origin of mammals dates back to around 200 million years ago. Not that that matters as far as the derelict's age goes.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 septembre 2011 - 08:10 .