6494 réponses à ce sujet

[aznricepuff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

The wrokings of the human brain won't change in the future. It works as it works.

And there isn't any scientific of medical discovery or technolgoy that can re-create something from nothing. Perdiod.
FTL is rock-hard science compared to that.

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

[Someone With Mass]

aznricepuff wrote...

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because then we wouldn't have something trivial to whine about.

Maybe they simply replaced the dead parts of his brain with cybernetics.

[Arkitekt]

I think that dark energy dunne it.

/thread

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because then we wouldn't have something trivial to whine about.

Maybe they simply replaced the dead parts of his brain with cybernetics.

Oh I wish it was that simple. 

[111987]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And it's the job of the writers and developers to make the choices credible and sensible. To make the story flow properly. If half hte galaxy has to be handed the idiot ball for hte story to progress, you're doing something wrong.

[/quote]

As I've said before, just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is universally stupid to avoid fighting the Collector Ship.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I disagree. If hte guardian turrets damanged it and caused it to flee, it can't be that powerfull. Besides, if it's too pwoerfull now, it's too powerfull later.

[/quote]

You are meta-gaming here. When we first arrive on Horizon, we do not know if the GARDIAN turrets will have any effect.

You are still missing the point about an optional confrontation vs. a non-optional confrontation.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Disagree again. It's not the simplest explanation simply because you say so.

[/quote]

It's more simple than inventing a tracking beam or something like that. But fine, we can agree to disagree.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
4. GARDIAN turrets on ships are meant for fighting off fighters and interceptors and torpedoes. The massive turrets on Horizon were obviously stronger than the ship-based ones.[/quote]

Sauce?

[/quote]

There's nothing in-game that says so. But you can use common sense...ship GARDIAN's are used to destroy small things like disruptor torpedoes. Since the turrets managed to do damage to the Colelctor ship, it is clearly more powerful

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can stop the abductions by blowing the collector ship sky-high too.
sheppard wanting ot stop hte collectors and saving the crew makes sense. Takign too many unnecessary risks does not.

[/quote]

Like choosing to attack the Colelctor ship?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And solving daddy issue beofre going in does not grind the plot to a halt?
Diagree again - scouting ahead would enhance the plot and writing. Even moreso when there's no set time for the scouting to take place. It could take place before the crew abduction..or during. Heck, Shep doesn't have to do anything - TIM can do the info gathering.

[/quote]

The loyalty missions can all be done before going on the Derelict Reaper (except for Legion's, obviously). So no, moot point.

TIM said he's invested all his resources into finding a way past the Omega 4 Relay. If it eases your mind, just assume probes were a part of this, and that they failed. Or did you want TIM to list everything he's tried?

And in any case, those scout ships and probes would be destroyed before yielding any useful data.[/quote]

unsopported assumptions
[/quote]

Um, no. Unless you're saying the fighters with weak shields and probes with no shields would survive long enough through the debris field and Occuli to gather useufl intel? Keeping in mind all of these things require incredibly complicated and expensive QE links to even be able to transmit the data?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They knew we have a reaper-based AI and IFF yet didnt' do anything.
You're not decreasing your chances of sucess by sending probes in really.
[/quote]

it wouldn't make a huge difference, but it just confirms to the Collectors that our iFF DOES work.

[Xeranx]

Arkitekt wrote...

Phaelducan is 100% correct in his conversation and I'm also slightly irritated at Xeranx's combination of arrogance with ignorance on the subject matter. With a 2500 sample size, the error margin of its poll is quite small indeed.

If I were you I wouldn't talk of arrogance and apparently you're irritated by quite a bit.  So shut it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

The wrokings of the human brain won't change in the future. It works as it works.

And there isn't any scientific of medical discovery or technolgoy that can re-create something from nothing. Perdiod.
FTL is rock-hard science compared to that.

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because FTL flows directly from the core enabling conceit of the setting, and is absolutely necessary to the setting and the story. 

The "resurrection" doesn't, and isn't. 

[Arkitekt]

Xeranx wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Phaelducan is 100% correct in his conversation and I'm also slightly irritated at Xeranx's combination of arrogance with ignorance on the subject matter. With a 2500 sample size, the error margin of its poll is quite small indeed.

If I were you I wouldn't talk of arrogance and apparently you're irritated by quite a bit.  So shut it.

Arrogance is only problematic when coupled with ignorance, something that you displayed admirably. And I will control my own keyboard, thank you very much.

[aznricepuff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

The wrokings of the human brain won't change in the future. It works as it works.

And there isn't any scientific of medical discovery or technolgoy that can re-create something from nothing. Perdiod.
FTL is rock-hard science compared to that.

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because FTL flows directly from the core enabling conceit of the setting, and is absolutely necessary to the setting and the story. 

The "resurrection" doesn't, and isn't. 

That's just it. FTL doesn't even flow directly from the "core enabling conceit" (mass effect fields). I get that it's necessary for the story, but my ability to suspend disbelief isn't dependent on how necessary something is to the story. It's dependent on if it's internally consistent with the rest of setting. We don't know what kind of (impossible) medical tech they have in ME2. And in the absence of that information, I'd rather just assume they have some kind of super complicated gizmo that can "read residual quantum states" [insert technobabble of choice here] or some such to rebuild Shepard's brain activities.

[Someone With Mass]

I guess Saren's corpse starting to get up and walk again is just as believable as the FTL too. Or the eezo nodes building inside people's heads without giving them permanent brain damages.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I guess Saren's corpse starting to get up and walk again is just as believable as the FTL too. Or the eezo nodes building inside people's heads without giving them permanent brain damages.

FTL and biotics are part of the ME universe "space magic" We know and accept this isn't reality but in this universe, we are told that it's "how things work"

Saren's corpse was done with Reaper technology.  Technology so far in advance of our own even people operating in a universe where ftl exists aren't really meant to understand it.

Believability isn't the issue, verisimilitude is.

[Killjoy Cutter]

aznricepuff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

The wrokings of the human brain won't change in the future. It works as it works.

And there isn't any scientific of medical discovery or technolgoy that can re-create something from nothing. Perdiod.
FTL is rock-hard science compared to that.

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because FTL flows directly from the core enabling conceit of the setting, and is absolutely necessary to the setting and the story. 

The "resurrection" doesn't, and isn't. 

That's just it. FTL doesn't even flow directly from the "core enabling conceit" (mass effect fields). I get that it's necessary for the story, but my ability to suspend disbelief isn't dependent on how necessary something is to the story. It's dependent on if it's internally consistent with the rest of setting. We don't know what kind of (impossible) medical tech they have in ME2. And in the absence of that information, I'd rather just assume they have some kind of super complicated gizmo that can "read residual quantum states" [insert technobabble of choice here] or some such to rebuild Shepard's brain activities.

At least gravitational manipulation can start a path to some sort of FTL through warped space.

"Reading residual quantum states" is flat-out nonsense (sorry if you don't know this, but there are people who wrap up mystical gibberish in technobabble such as "quantum fields" and claim that it's the seat of consciousness and other such crap). 

As for me, if something is neither internally coherent nor plausible, then I'm not going to hang my disbelief.  It's one thing to suspend your disbelief.  It's another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead. 

Restoring Shep's brain from the state that they go out of their way to say it's in, is neither internal coherent for the ME setting, nor is it plausible.  It lacks the quality of seeming real -- verisimilitude. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 septembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Iakus]

aznricepuff wrote...
That's just it. FTL doesn't even flow directly from the "core enabling conceit" (mass effect fields). I get that it's necessary for the story, but my ability to suspend disbelief isn't dependent on how necessary something is to the story. It's dependent on if it's internally consistent with the rest of setting. We don't know what kind of (impossible) medical tech they have in ME2. And in the absence of that information, I'd rather just assume they have some kind of super complicated gizmo that can "read residual quantum states" [insert technobabble of choice here] or some such to rebuild Shepard's brain activities.

Actually, according to the Codex:

Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistic time dilation1 effects.Starships still require conventional thrusters (chemical rockets, commercial fusion torch, economy ion engine, or military antiproton drive) in addition to the FTL drive core. With only a core, a ship has no motive power.The amount of element zero and power required for a drive increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive.If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.

The science may be garbage, but in this universe it is firmly connected to mass effect technology

[Someone With Mass]

iakus wrote...

FTL and biotics are part of the ME universe "space magic" We know and accept this isn't reality but in this universe, we are told that it's "how things work"

Saren's corpse was done with Reaper technology.  Technology so far in advance of our own even people operating in a universe where ftl exists aren't really meant to understand it.

Believability isn't the issue, verisimilitude is.

People in this reality are also making the impossible possible all the time, so why not in Mass Effect? 

They said themselves that they made a huge medical breakthrough by reviving Shepard, so why not simply accept it and move on with your merry little lives?

[Arkitekt]

The ridiculous notion that Mass effect fields reduce the mass of the ship "to a point" thus making it possible to travel "faster than light" is amazingly ridiculous. This "point" that they mention should be negative, and even then I'm not quite sure what to make of the maths (doesn't seem to solve the lightspeed barrier at all). This is not science, it's just babble.

But people take it like a champ. And that's perfectly fine. I take it as well. I think it is funny in its wrongness, "cute" so to speak, and don't mind it at all. I enjoy the game.

Thing is, people have no problem with this shenanigan at all, but with the *possible* fall of Shepard into a planet (and "getting better"), they have irretrievable grudges.

And they still dare to say that their problem is verissimilitude! What a load of dingo's kidneys. Their problem is that their own brain couldn't accept it, and so instead of suspending disbelief and say something like "well perhaps there is something I don't know that explains it" or just "well it's a small thing anyway, don't bother with it", they go "it's BAD BAD BAD!". And yet, they eat the crap about mass effect fields or quantum entanglement "real time communication" bull**** with no problems whatsoever.

Ah whatever. Of all the scientific errors to be taken, Shepard's fall is the one left behind. Screw this, I'm done with you incoherent types.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

People in this reality are also making the impossible possible all the time, so why not in Mass Effect? 

They said themselves that they made a huge medical breakthrough by reviving Shepard, so why not simply accept it and move on with your merry little lives?

Because "possible impossibles" typically come with explanations, be it in game conversations or codex entries.  Save, curiously, this one.

[111987]

iakus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

People in this reality are also making the impossible possible all the time, so why not in Mass Effect? 

They said themselves that they made a huge medical breakthrough by reviving Shepard, so why not simply accept it and move on with your merry little lives?

Because "possible impossibles" typically come with explanations, be it in game conversations or codex entries.  Save, curiously, this one.

I have to admit, I too am curious as to why the Lazarus Project didn't make it into the Codex. I mean, when we have entries on the Quarian economy, it seems a little strange that something as significant as the Lazarus project wouldn't be in there.

[aznricepuff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

aznricepuff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
No, we don't know that. The human brain has never been recovered and recreated to the extent we are referencing. It is entirely possible that if the brain had any intact anything left, given the short amount of time, Lazerus could have completely restored Shep to the state they were in before the attack.

You "know" nothing in this case, it's all conjecture and theoretical, and you are applying 20th/early 21th century medicine and science as your basis.

The wrokings of the human brain won't change in the future. It works as it works.

And there isn't any scientific of medical discovery or technolgoy that can re-create something from nothing. Perdiod.
FTL is rock-hard science compared to that.

Why can't people just accept that Shepard's resurrection is just another plot device that can only happen in a science fiction world. I don't hear many people complaining about FTL travel, which is just as impossible.

Because FTL flows directly from the core enabling conceit of the setting, and is absolutely necessary to the setting and the story. 

The "resurrection" doesn't, and isn't. 

That's just it. FTL doesn't even flow directly from the "core enabling conceit" (mass effect fields). I get that it's necessary for the story, but my ability to suspend disbelief isn't dependent on how necessary something is to the story. It's dependent on if it's internally consistent with the rest of setting. We don't know what kind of (impossible) medical tech they have in ME2. And in the absence of that information, I'd rather just assume they have some kind of super complicated gizmo that can "read residual quantum states" [insert technobabble of choice here] or some such to rebuild Shepard's brain activities.

At least gravitational manipulation can start a path to some sort of FTL through warped space.

"Reading residual quantum states" is flat-out nonsense (sorry if you don't know this, but there are people who wrap up mystical gibberish in technobabble such as "quantum fields" and claim that it's the seat of consciousness and other such crap). 

As for me, if something is neither internally coherent nor plausible, then I'm not going to hang my disbelief.  It's one thing to suspend your disbelief.  It's another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead. 

Restoring Shep's brain from the state that they go out of their way to say it's in, is neither internal coherent for the ME setting, nor is it plausible.  It lacks the quality of seeming real -- verisimilitude. 

The whole reading residual quantum states thing wasn't supposed to be at all realistic. It was supposed to be nonsensical technobabble.

And mass effect fields don't manipulate gravity. They manipulate mass. I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I'm pretty sure this by itself is just flat out impossible. Even if it isn't, FTL travel is impossible. Every possible scheme that physicists have come with for FTL travel either just violates special relativity, have impossible requirements (Alcubierre drive), can't be used to send classical information (quantum teleportation), or would violate causality (Einstein-Rosen bridge). It's just as preposterous as Shepard's resurrection.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

The ridiculous notion that Mass effect fields reduce the mass of the ship "to a point" thus making it possible to travel "faster than light" is amazingly ridiculous. This "point" that they mention should be negative, and even then I'm not quite sure what to make of the maths (doesn't seem to solve the lightspeed barrier at all). This is not science, it's just babble.

But people take it like a champ. And that's perfectly fine. I take it as well. I think it is funny in its wrongness, "cute" so to speak, and don't mind it at all. I enjoy the game.

Thing is, people have no problem with this shenanigan at all, but with the *possible* fall of Shepard into a planet (and "getting better"), they have irretrievable grudges.

And they still dare to say that their problem is verissimilitude! What a load of dingo's kidneys. Their problem is that their own brain couldn't accept it, and so instead of suspending disbelief and say something like "well perhaps there is something I don't know that explains it" or just "well it's a small thing anyway, don't bother with it", they go "it's BAD BAD BAD!". And yet, they eat the crap about mass effect fields or quantum entanglement "real time communication" bull**** with no problems whatsoever.

I can accept FTL, quantum entaglement communications, biotics and mass effect fields the same way I can accept mages, darkspawn, qunari, and lyrrium.  Because the game universe says it exists, and shows me how it fits into this universe.  But I question ressurection technology in the Mass Effect universe for the same reason I'd question it in the Dragon Age universe:  because it how it can be accomplished hasn't been explained.  It does not fit into the universe's known capabilities.

Ah whatever. Of all the scientific errors to be taken, Shepard's fall is the one left behind. Screw this, I'm done with you incoherent types.

Dang, and here we were having such a polite, civil chat too :innocent:

[aznricepuff]

Arkitekt wrote...

The ridiculous notion that Mass effect fields reduce the mass of the ship "to a point" thus making it possible to travel "faster than light" is amazingly ridiculous. This "point" that they mention should be negative, and even then I'm not quite sure what to make of the maths (doesn't seem to solve the lightspeed barrier at all). This is not science, it's just babble.

But people take it like a champ. And that's perfectly fine. I take it as well. I think it is funny in its wrongness, "cute" so to speak, and don't mind it at all. I enjoy the game.

Thing is, people have no problem with this shenanigan at all, but with the *possible* fall of Shepard into a planet (and "getting better"), they have irretrievable grudges.

And they still dare to say that their problem is verissimilitude! What a load of dingo's kidneys. Their problem is that their own brain couldn't accept it, and so instead of suspending disbelief and say something like "well perhaps there is something I don't know that explains it" or just "well it's a small thing anyway, don't bother with it", they go "it's BAD BAD BAD!". And yet, they eat the crap about mass effect fields or quantum entanglement "real time communication" bull**** with no problems whatsoever.

Ah whatever. Of all the scientific errors to be taken, Shepard's fall is the one left behind. Screw this, I'm done with you incoherent types.

I really think that Bioware shouldn't even attempt to give quasi-scientific explanations for what goes on in ME because when they do, they usually fail hard at it. You mentioned two really big ones (ME fields allowing for FTL travel and quantum entanglement allowing for FTL comms). Did anyone else pay close attention to the codex entry on how eezo generates ME fields? Positive and negative current? Really Bioware? Current doesn't have a sign for gods sake.

[Iakus]

aznricepuff wrote...

The whole reading residual quantum states thing wasn't supposed to be at all realistic. It was supposed to be nonsensical technobabble.

And mass effect fields don't manipulate gravity. They manipulate mass. I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I'm pretty sure this by itself is just flat out impossible. Even if it isn't, FTL travel is impossible. Every possible scheme that physicists have come with for FTL travel either just violates special relativity, have impossible requirements (Alcubierre drive), can't be used to send classical information (quantum teleportation), or would violate causality (Einstein-Rosen bridge). It's just as preposterous as Shepard's resurrection.

One small difference, though:


Alien artifacts on Mars introduced scientists to a whole new and previously unsuspected school of science that made things like ftl possible.  So far as we know, no similar alien artifacts have been found that can restore viality to the dead:lol:

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, does the Codex describe in high detail how ships are able to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of seconds while hitting absolutely nothing on the way, beyond "this allows for instantaneous travel"?

Because I'd like to know how that's possible too. More so than the Lazarus project, since it's frequently used, unlike the Lazarus project.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, does the Codex describe in high detail how ships are able to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of seconds while hitting absolutely nothing on the way, beyond "this allows for instantaneous travel"?

Because I'd like to know how that's possible too. More so than the Lazarus project, since it's frequently used, unlike the Lazarus project.

Not as such, no:

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Please note the first sentance particularly the phrase "far beyond the technology of any living species". 

It's Reaper tech.  Sufficiently Advanced.  We aren't supposed to know how they work.  

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

The ridiculous notion that Mass effect fields reduce the mass of the ship "to a point" thus making it possible to travel "faster than light" is amazingly ridiculous. This "point" that they mention should be negative, and even then I'm not quite sure what to make of the maths (doesn't seem to solve the lightspeed barrier at all). This is not science, it's just babble.

But people take it like a champ. And that's perfectly fine. I take it as well. I think it is funny in its wrongness, "cute" so to speak, and don't mind it at all. I enjoy the game.

Thing is, people have no problem with this shenanigan at all, but with the *possible* fall of Shepard into a planet (and "getting better"), they have irretrievable grudges.

And they still dare to say that their problem is verissimilitude! What a load of dingo's kidneys. Their problem is that their own brain couldn't accept it, and so instead of suspending disbelief and say something like "well perhaps there is something I don't know that explains it" or just "well it's a small thing anyway, don't bother with it", they go "it's BAD BAD BAD!". And yet, they eat the crap about mass effect fields or quantum entanglement "real time communication" bull**** with no problems whatsoever.

Ah whatever. Of all the scientific errors to be taken, Shepard's fall is the one left behind. Screw this, I'm done with you incoherent types.

Because the mass effect fields and the FTL are absolutely crucial to the setting and story.  They're the central conceit, the "what if?" 

Bringing back a brain that they make a point of saying was messed the hell up comes out of left field.   (I'm trying to find quotes from the project notes you can listen to on terminals and datapads lying around Lazarus Station, so far no luck.) 


As for the QE comm, it was completely unnecessary, ME had instant comms over vast interstellar distances without a nonsense explanation before -- it just had it, and that was that.  IF someone had mentioned the QE comm earlier, I'd have lambasted it too.