6494 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

[Arkitekt]

So since mass effect fields are "absolutely crucial to the setting and story" it doesn't matter anymore how ****ing insanely wrong the explanations for them are. (Yeah, I missed that "negative currents" as well, what a fest for the writers there! I can almost imagine their train of thought: "how can I **** up physics the most? How can I scientifically troll the hardest I can in this sci fi game?")

Since Shepard's fall is not "absolutely crucial", then we must trash its alledged impossibility (although as far as we can tell, it could happen without any violation of physics), and absolutely not accept it.

Ahah, people are completely incoherent and proud of it!

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

So since mass effect fields are "absolutely crucial to the setting and story" it doesn't matter anymore how ****ing insanely wrong the explanations for them are. (Yeah, I missed that "negative currents" as well, what a fest for the writers there! I can almost imagine their train of thought: "how can I **** up physics the most? How can I scientifically troll the hardest I can in this sci fi game?")

Since Shepard's fall is not "absolutely crucial", then we must trash its alledged impossibility (although as far as we can tell, it could happen without any violation of physics), and absolutely not accept it.

Ahah, people are completely incoherent and proud of it!

Except, I'm also not the one trashing the fall.

[Arkitekt]

"mass free space allowing instantaneous transit".

Wouldn't that be great. But wait a minute, light itself has no mass and is still confined to its own speed!

And iakus is fine with it because it has "verisimilitude"!

Stop it! Can't stop laughing! Please!

[Someone With Mass]

iakus wrote...
Not as such, no:

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Please note the first sentance particularly the phrase "far beyond the technology of any living species". 

It's Reaper tech.  Sufficiently Advanced.  We aren't supposed to know how they work.  

So if Reaper tech was used to revive Shepard, people would just accept it because Reaper tech is advanced and mysterious?

Not going to lie, that sounds just as weak as accepting FTL for what it is just because the game said that it's like that and you should accept it without question.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

So since mass effect fields are "absolutely crucial to the setting and story" it doesn't matter anymore how ****ing insanely wrong the explanations for them are. (Yeah, I missed that "negative currents" as well, what a fest for the writers there! I can almost imagine their train of thought: "how can I **** up physics the most? How can I scientifically troll the hardest I can in this sci fi game?")

Since Shepard's fall is not "absolutely crucial", then we must trash its alledged impossibility (although as far as we can tell, it could happen without any violation of physics), and absolutely not accept it.

Ahah, people are completely incoherent and proud of it!

Except, I'm also not the one trashing the fall.

You are trashing a nitpicked detail that is also perfectly not in violation of physics. It's merely implausible as far as we know, which isn't much.

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

So since mass effect fields are "absolutely crucial to the setting and story" it doesn't matter anymore how ****ing insanely wrong the explanations for them are. (Yeah, I missed that "negative currents" as well, what a fest for the writers there! I can almost imagine their train of thought: "how can I **** up physics the most? How can I scientifically troll the hardest I can in this sci fi game?")

Since Shepard's fall is not "absolutely crucial", then we must trash its alledged impossibility (although as far as we can tell, it could happen without any violation of physics), and absolutely not accept it.

Ahah, people are completely incoherent and proud of it!

Except, I'm also not the one trashing the fall.

You are trashing a nitpicked detail that is also perfectly not in violation of physics. It's merely implausible as far as we know, which isn't much.

What detail is that? 

If you still mean the fall, I've been the one saying that it's absolutely possible for Shep's body to be intact after the fall.  Not likely, but possible. 

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

Not all species, just the species that have developed human or near-human intelligence. I personally don't see why this is a problem. Just because humans aren't genetically diverse compared to animals on Earth doesn't mean we aren't genetically diverse compared to Asari, Salarians, Krogan, etc...

[Arkitekt]

Weren't you trashing Shepard's brain being too damaged to be retrievable?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone With Mass wrote...

iakus wrote...
Not as such, no:

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Please note the first sentance particularly the phrase "far beyond the technology of any living species". 

It's Reaper tech.  Sufficiently Advanced.  We aren't supposed to know how they work.  

So if Reaper tech was used to revive Shepard, people would just accept it because Reaper tech is advanced and mysterious?

Not going to lie, that sounds just as weak as accepting FTL for what it is just because the game said that it's like that and you should accept it without question.

I for one wouldn't, because "reaper tech did it" gets old fast. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

Not all species, just the species that have developed human or near-human intelligence. I personally don't see why this is a problem. Just because humans aren't genetically diverse compared to animals on Earth doesn't mean we aren't genetically diverse compared to Asari, Salarians, Krogan, etc...

It's not impossible, it's just that if it's true, then every other sapient species in the galaxy is VERY not diverse genetically.   VERY.

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

Not all species, just the species that have developed human or near-human intelligence. I personally don't see why this is a problem. Just because humans aren't genetically diverse compared to animals on Earth doesn't mean we aren't genetically diverse compared to Asari, Salarians, Krogan, etc...

It's not impossible, it's just that if it's true, then every other sapient species in the galaxy is VERY not diverse genetically.   VERY.

So? The science isn't technically wrong

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...
Weren't you trashing Shepard's brain being too damaged to be retrievable?

Given what the notes lying around Lazarus Station say, given what Jacob, Miranda, and Wilson say, given what we're told Shep's body went through, it's like Bioware went out of their way to tell us that Shep's brain had to be a very bad state, a state in which it had to be too damaged to retain memory and personality.  The information would be gone, simply based on what's known about how the brain stores that information.  Poof, no more.  It doesn't take "really advanced tech" to get lost information back, it takes literal magic. 

That's why I used the analogy of burning a printed page and disolving the ashes in acid.  The words are gone, the information is gone, everything is gone.  You can't get it back.  You'd literally need a way to put the atoms back into the molecules they were combined into, and the molecules back into the same pattern. 

If Shep's brain was a damaged as they made the rest of Shep out to be, and I see no reason to think otherwise, then they'd need that same sort of "magic" to restore the lost electrochemical and chemical states of the damaged and lost neurons, and the lost pattern of connections between billions of neurons. 

Bioware creates the disconnect by making such a big deal of just how damaged Shep was.

As I said, I'm trying to find good quotes or clips of those notes on Lazarus, and the other things, to show what I mean, but so far no luck.


And please don't tell me that I'm determined to trash ME2 or that I'm biased, because that's when you get into silly attack-dog territory.  I put just as much effort into defending "the fall" as plausible. 

[Phaelducan]

What's really weird about this thread is now the people who were earlier demanding better scientific explanations are now mocking Bioware for their inability to write good scientific explanations....

It shouldn't matter whether bad science is integral to the plot or not... if you balk at Lazarus because of it's "hokeyness" then the other Bioware science whammy's should bother you just as much.

Beyond that, just as a side issue, Mass Effect never billed itself as "realistic science fiction" or anything of the sort. It IS supposed to be fun and adventure... not a PBS special.

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

Not all species, just the species that have developed human or near-human intelligence. I personally don't see why this is a problem. Just because humans aren't genetically diverse compared to animals on Earth doesn't mean we aren't genetically diverse compared to Asari, Salarians, Krogan, etc...

It's not impossible, it's just that if it's true, then every other sapient species in the galaxy is VERY not diverse genetically.   VERY.

So? The science isn't technically wrong

No, it's just unlikely.

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Getting the science wrong:  see also, "Humans are genetically diverse".  

Mordin was saying humans are genetically diverse compared to other organic species. Since we don't know the genetic structure of other species, we have to take his word for it. This doesn't seem like an issue.

Compared to the vast majority of species on earth, at least, we're not genetically diverse.  So, unless those other species are all REALLY genetically homogenous... 

Not all species, just the species that have developed human or near-human intelligence. I personally don't see why this is a problem. Just because humans aren't genetically diverse compared to animals on Earth doesn't mean we aren't genetically diverse compared to Asari, Salarians, Krogan, etc...

It's not impossible, it's just that if it's true, then every other sapient species in the galaxy is VERY not diverse genetically.   VERY.

So? The science isn't technically wrong

No, it's just unlikely.

Unless you know the genetic variance of the other sapient species, you can't make a judgement call like that.

[aznricepuff]

Phaelducan wrote...

What's really weird about this thread is now the people who were earlier demanding better scientific explanations are now mocking Bioware for their inability to write good scientific explanations....

It shouldn't matter whether bad science is integral to the plot or not... if you balk at Lazarus because of it's "hokeyness" then the other Bioware science whammy's should bother you just as much.

Beyond that, just as a side issue, Mass Effect never billed itself as "realistic science fiction" or anything of the sort. It IS supposed to be fun and adventure... not a PBS special.

I never demanded better scientific explanations. In fact my point is that good scientific explanations aren't necessary (in no small part because they're impossible to create when what you're trying to explain is literally impossible). I was merely trying to point how it's messed up for people to focus in on one aspect of the plot that isn't plausible and ignore all the other equally impossible aspects.

[Someone With Mass]

Phaelducan wrote...

What's really weird about this thread is now the people who were earlier demanding better scientific explanations are now mocking Bioware for their inability to write good scientific explanations....

It shouldn't matter whether bad science is integral to the plot or not... if you balk at Lazarus because of it's "hokeyness" then the other Bioware science whammy's should bother you just as much.

Beyond that, just as a side issue, Mass Effect never billed itself as "realistic science fiction" or anything of the sort. It IS supposed to be fun and adventure... not a PBS special.

If only more people could see it like that.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

"mass free space allowing instantaneous transit".

Wouldn't that be great. But wait a minute, light itself has no mass and is still confined to its own speed!

And iakus is fine with it because it has "verisimilitude"!

Stop it! Can't stop laughing! Please!

I'm fine with it because the relays are "Sufficiently Advanced" technology.  We aren't meant to understand them.  Heck the Reapers would probably prefer it if no one else ever figured out how they work.

[Phaelducan]

Yeah, wasn't referring to you specifically azn. I also agree that it's silly and myopic to obsess over Lazarus.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

iakus wrote...
Not as such, no:

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Please note the first sentance particularly the phrase "far beyond the technology of any living species". 

It's Reaper tech.  Sufficiently Advanced.  We aren't supposed to know how they work.  

So if Reaper tech was used to revive Shepard, people would just accept it because Reaper tech is advanced and mysterious?

Not going to lie, that sounds just as weak as accepting FTL for what it is just because the game said that it's like that and you should accept it without question.

I would not say I would like it.  Because you're right, it is a weak explanation.  It's not a very creative.  And it would lead to questions as to how TIM, Wilson, Miranda, et al would have figured out how to implant it in the first place.  But I would accept it, because yes Reaper tech is advanced and mysterious.

[Phaelducan]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

What's really weird about this thread is now the people who were earlier demanding better scientific explanations are now mocking Bioware for their inability to write good scientific explanations....

It shouldn't matter whether bad science is integral to the plot or not... if you balk at Lazarus because of it's "hokeyness" then the other Bioware science whammy's should bother you just as much.

Beyond that, just as a side issue, Mass Effect never billed itself as "realistic science fiction" or anything of the sort. It IS supposed to be fun and adventure... not a PBS special.

If only more people could see it like that.

There is pretty good science in some games I suppose. Fallout comes to mind... although that series also goes out of it's way to be absurd at times. Assassin's Creed is pretty hokey, with the whole Animus thing. It's just weird for there to be this much obsession with the pseudo-science in Mass Effect. I wonder why? Bioware certainly never billed it as meant to be interpreted literally.

Side issue, and off topic. It just struck me as odd.

[Iakus]

Phaelducan wrote...

Yeah, wasn't referring to you specifically azn. I also agree that it's silly and myopic to obsess over Lazarus.

We could always move on to another topic.  How about Horizon and teh VS?  That's always good for a laugh.

And by laugh I mean teeth-grinding badness

[aznricepuff]

Phaelducan wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

What's really weird about this thread is now the people who were earlier demanding better scientific explanations are now mocking Bioware for their inability to write good scientific explanations....

It shouldn't matter whether bad science is integral to the plot or not... if you balk at Lazarus because of it's "hokeyness" then the other Bioware science whammy's should bother you just as much.

Beyond that, just as a side issue, Mass Effect never billed itself as "realistic science fiction" or anything of the sort. It IS supposed to be fun and adventure... not a PBS special.

If only more people could see it like that.

There is pretty good science in some games I suppose. Fallout comes to mind... although that series also goes out of it's way to be absurd at times. Assassin's Creed is pretty hokey, with the whole Animus thing. It's just weird for there to be this much obsession with the pseudo-science in Mass Effect. I wonder why? Bioware certainly never billed it as meant to be interpreted literally.

Side issue, and off topic. It just struck me as odd.

Because we Bioware fans are all insane.