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[onelifecrisis]

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

At least I can take solace in the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry. DXHR, Alpha Protocol, Witcher 2, etc. Developers seem to have taken note of the value of a player-affected narrative, and that's great. At this rate, I don't think I'll be buying ME3.

I'll give you AP since I never played the game, but I seriously doubt ME had that much influence you think it had on the other games. Witcher 2 is an iteration of Witcher (1), which btw came out at the same time as ME (1). As much as I like DX: HR, I find the influence you have on the narrative very limiting, especially main plot wise, and most of it's influence came from earlier games of DX.

But that's just me.

I said "player-affected narrative".

I haven't player Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol, I've just read reviews and heard talk. And I've only just started playing DXHR. But in any case, I think you've mistaken narrative for plot. The ME games showed that a player can affect the narrative without it having any impact on the plot, and that's what other games are doing too.

Edit:
Actually, "player-affected dialogue" is what I probably should have said.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Phaelducan]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

The point isn't that the game could have been better (they always can), the point is that the game was really good. Bioware is aware of a lot of the criticisms of their games, and I trust that ME3 will address most of the major ones. I also think that a lot of the criticism about the story of ME2 is way overblown and patently subjective.

Sorry to nitpick, but that last bit is rhetoric. Anything and everything said about anything and everything is "patently subjective". Moving on.

Phaelducan wrote...

The evidence we have for product approval is staggering in this day and age. ME2 killed it. KILLED it, and the evidence we have for it's disapproval is minute. I won't bring stats in again, because the foolio's that don't get it never will, and I'm tired of wasting my breath, so instead I'll just compare the two sides of the scale with no numbers. The criticism is far outweighed by the praise (and said praise does include story, not always the main point, but usually mentioned positively in journalistic reviews).

We can point to thousands of positive feedback examples. Concrete, actual examples of positive feedback in the range of the 90% percentile. Conversely? Maybe 100 different users on the BSN with a bone to pick.

Yes, ME2 is a great game. A great game. I (as one of the plot detractors) would not debate that. Even today I still love to fire it up occasionally and vanguard-charge my way around a battlefield.

Many great games are very well received by critics and the public in spite of having horrendously poor storylines or, as is often the case, no story at all. Whenever a critic or a player tells me that a game has a great story, I always mentally append an asterisk: it has a great story*

*for a game.

The positive reception of ME2 as a game really has nothing to do with whether or not it has a good plot, which is what this thread is about.

Phaelducan wrote...

This has gone on way too long, but I would ask that all the detractors (except Lotion, because he's a lost cause), from Smudboy on down take a serious step back and ask themselves how much of their criticism is about the game... and how much is about their own expectations and interpretations of what a perfect game is "supposed" to be.

I certainly don't expect perfection. That would be silly. But I bought ME2 primarily for the story. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was actually a great game, and horribly disappointed to find that the story was not only a mess in it's own right, but also a terrible sequel.

According to you. It's not notpicking to again point out that you are from all appearances in the minority of people who think that the story was "bad." I'm not talking about the merits of the overall game in this context anymore, I'm talking about the merits of the plot itself. You didn't care for it. Fine, but keep in mind that your expectations have a great deal more to do with your disappointment then actual quantifiable flaws in the game. I say quantifiable as again, I think Jack was stupid and pointless, but there are many who disagree.

[Mister Mida]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

At least I can take solace in the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry. DXHR, Alpha Protocol, Witcher 2, etc. Developers seem to have taken note of the value of a player-affected narrative, and that's great. At this rate, I don't think I'll be buying ME3.

I'll give you AP since I never played the game, but I seriously doubt ME had that much influence you think it had on the other games. Witcher 2 is an iteration of Witcher (1), which btw came out at the same time as ME (1). As much as I like DX: HR, I find the influence you have on the narrative very limiting, especially main plot wise, and most of it's influence came from earlier games of DX.

But that's just me.

I said "player-affected narrative".

I haven't player Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol, I've just read reviews and heard talk. And I've only just started playing DXHR. But in any case, I think you've mistaken narrative for plot. The ME games showed that a player can affect the narrative without it having any impact on the plot, and that's what other games are doing too.

I don't see how ME specifically affected other devs in doing so. Maybe Bioware in general. But I've seen Fable doing that as well. The universe perceives you differently depending on your actions without affecting plot, assuming I got your interpretation of narrative right.

Also citing games without knowing for sure since you haven't played doesn't help your argument.

[Killjoy Cutter]

onelifecrisis wrote...
Sorry to nitpick, but that last bit is rhetoric. Anything and everything said about anything and everything is "patently subjective". Moving on.

Oh goody, more postmodernism. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[FlyinElk212]

Phaelducan wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Great point man. A lot of the debate comes from a disconnect in the perception of "what we think is a good Mass Effect 2 story" over "what we think is a good story". That being said, I really think Smudboy's trying to highlight the objective flaws within Mass Effect 2's story, but his message gets contorted in his personality and portrayal of said flaws.

I don't agree with Smudboy on his points involving the overall game itself, but the man is right about several points involving Mass Effect 2's story. While we perceive Mass Effect 2 as a great story, there are several flaws in its overall narrative that a writer can point to. It's overarching plot is weak at points and has loose ends that lead nowhere. Nevermind that it is a thrilling experience that I personally enjoyed. Stepping back and looking at it analytically, with all our love and hate for the series aside, one can see the flaws Mass Effect 2's story has.

This is a very solid outlook, and one I agree with wholeheartedly. To further add, I do not believe anyone in this thread actually hates ME2, quite the contrary in fact. Some merely argue the flaws more strongly than others. Smudboy doomed himself to negative backlash when he cited ME2, "the worst sequel in gaming." Even if you argue it not being a good sequel, that statement is largely inaccurate.

I know, right? I mean has he even played Super Mario 2? It wasn't even a Mario Game, it was just reskinned and makes no sense at all. Not a bad game by itself, but a horrible sequel to Mario.

@Bourne-- Haha, thanks. I'm glad that there are a few level-headed people in here. Kinda makes you wish one of them made these series of videos, huh?

@Phae-- DAMNIT, MAN! Now I'm craving a Smudboy analysis parody video using Super Mario 2. "One does not kill off a Birdo in the beginning of a story!"

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Phaelducan]

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

At least I can take solace in the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry. DXHR, Alpha Protocol, Witcher 2, etc. Developers seem to have taken note of the value of a player-affected narrative, and that's great. At this rate, I don't think I'll be buying ME3.

I'll give you AP since I never played the game, but I seriously doubt ME had that much influence you think it had on the other games. Witcher 2 is an iteration of Witcher (1), which btw came out at the same time as ME (1). As much as I like DX: HR, I find the influence you have on the narrative very limiting, especially main plot wise, and most of it's influence came from earlier games of DX.

But that's just me.

Interesting. I completely disagree with your assessment of Human Revolution. I found it to be one of the best examples in recent memory of the protagonist controlling the narrative. Are missions the same? Yes, but choices in those missions directly influence the over-arcing theme of the game. Hell, even playing the game as a pacifist or killing guards directly changes the dialog in the ending sequence. Adam Jensen is the lynchpin for the narrative. Not to digress though.

As to the Witcher, I really wish I had played that... but I'll have to settle for the sequel I guess. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...
The evidence we have for product approval is staggering in this day and age. ME2 killed it. KILLED it, and the evidence we have for it's disapproval is minute. I won't bring stats in again, because the foolio's that don't get it never will, and I'm tired of wasting my breath, so instead I'll just compare the two sides of the scale with no numbers. The criticism is far outweighed by the praise (and said praise does include story, not always the main point, but usually mentioned positively in journalistic reviews).

We can point to thousands of positive feedback examples. Concrete, actual examples of positive feedback in the range of the 90% percentile. Conversely? Maybe 100 different users on the BSN with a bone to pick.

Meaningless.
 
Many people think that McDonands hamburgers are the height of sandwiches, and that Jersey Shore and American Idol are great television. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Mister Mida]

Phaelducan wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

I'll give you AP since I never played the game, but I seriously doubt ME had that much influence you think it had on the other games. Witcher 2 is an iteration of Witcher (1), which btw came out at the same time as ME (1). As much as I like DX: HR, I find the influence you have on the narrative very limiting, especially main plot wise, and most of it's influence came from earlier games of DX.

But that's just me.

Interesting. I completely disagree with your assessment of Human Revolution. I found it to be one of the best examples in recent memory of the protagonist controlling the narrative. Are missions the same? Yes, but choices in those missions directly influence the over-arcing theme of the game. Hell, even playing the game as a pacifist or killing guards directly changes the dialog in the ending sequence. Adam Jensen is the lynchpin for the narrative. Not to digress though.

As to the Witcher, I really wish I had played that... but I'll have to settle for the sequel I guess. 

Yes, I agree now that I that I think I understand his defintion of player-affected narrative.

[onelifecrisis]

Phaelducan wrote...

According to you. It's not notpicking to again point out that you are from all appearances in the minority of people who think that the story was "bad." I'm not talking about the merits of the overall game in this context anymore, I'm talking about the merits of the plot itself. You didn't care for it. Fine, but keep in mind that your expectations have a great deal more to do with your disappointment then actual quantifiable flaws in the game. I say quantifiable as again, I think Jack was stupid and pointless, but there are many who disagree.

I'm a little confused by the bold bit. Did you mean that the other way around?

"your disappointment have a great deal more to do with your expectations" (?)

As for quantifiable flaws, there are many. There's 200 pages of them right here. Or rather, there's 100 pages of flaws and 100 pages of people guessing (key word) at plausible explanations for those flaws. I don't see much point in me re-listing plot holes so that you can take guesses at what the missing pieces might be in order to "prove" that the plot isn't flawed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Some of the explanations are guessing. 
Some, however, are extrapolation. 

Not the same thing. 

[onelifecrisis]

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

At least I can take solace in the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry. DXHR, Alpha Protocol, Witcher 2, etc. Developers seem to have taken note of the value of a player-affected narrative, and that's great. At this rate, I don't think I'll be buying ME3.

I'll give you AP since I never played the game, but I seriously doubt ME had that much influence you think it had on the other games. Witcher 2 is an iteration of Witcher (1), which btw came out at the same time as ME (1). As much as I like DX: HR, I find the influence you have on the narrative very limiting, especially main plot wise, and most of it's influence came from earlier games of DX.

But that's just me.

I said "player-affected narrative".

I haven't player Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol, I've just read reviews and heard talk. And I've only just started playing DXHR. But in any case, I think you've mistaken narrative for plot. The ME games showed that a player can affect the narrative without it having any impact on the plot, and that's what other games are doing too.

I don't see how ME specifically affected other devs in doing so. Maybe Bioware in general. But I've seen Fable doing that as well. The universe perceives you differently depending on your actions without affecting plot, assuming I got your interpretation of narrative right.

Also citing games without knowing for sure since you haven't played doesn't help your argument.

I said "the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry". It wasn't an argument. Why are trying to make it into one? I'm just saying that player-affected dialgue (see my edit on the post you quoted) is appearing in more AAA games, and I like it, and I believe this is (at least in part) thanks to the ME games.

[Phaelducan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
The evidence we have for product approval is staggering in this day and age. ME2 killed it. KILLED it, and the evidence we have for it's disapproval is minute. I won't bring stats in again, because the foolio's that don't get it never will, and I'm tired of wasting my breath, so instead I'll just compare the two sides of the scale with no numbers. The criticism is far outweighed by the praise (and said praise does include story, not always the main point, but usually mentioned positively in journalistic reviews).

We can point to thousands of positive feedback examples. Concrete, actual examples of positive feedback in the range of the 90% percentile. Conversely? Maybe 100 different users on the BSN with a bone to pick.

Meaningless.
 
Many people think that McDonands hamburgers are the height of sandwiches, and that Jersey Shore and American Idol are great television. 

Straw man. Taste is not what I'm talking about. Quality is. How many people who eat McDonald's think it's good as compared to other fast food. How many people who like Reality TV think Jersey Shore is a good reality show and American Idol is a good singing competition.

Don't compare apples and cars.

[onelifecrisis]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Some of the explanations are guessing. 
Some, however, are extrapolation. 

Not the same thing. 

Extrapolation results are, by their nature, uncertain.

[Phaelducan]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

According to you. It's not notpicking to again point out that you are from all appearances in the minority of people who think that the story was "bad." I'm not talking about the merits of the overall game in this context anymore, I'm talking about the merits of the plot itself. You didn't care for it. Fine, but keep in mind that your expectations have a great deal more to do with your disappointment then actual quantifiable flaws in the game. I say quantifiable as again, I think Jack was stupid and pointless, but there are many who disagree.

I'm a little confused by the bold bit. Did you mean that the other way around?

"your disappointment have a great deal more to do with your expectations" (?)

As for quantifiable flaws, there are many. There's 200 pages of them right here. Or rather, there's 100 pages of flaws and 100 pages of people guessing (key word) at plausible explanations for those flaws. I don't see much point in me re-listing plot holes so that you can take guesses at what the missing pieces might be in order to "prove" that the plot isn't flawed.

The Lazarus Project is not a quantifiable flaw. Just because some people thought it was wonky doesn't mean it was inherently bad. I had no problem with it. None. Many others agree. That is enough to say it's not a quantifiable flaw. It's certainly worthy of subjective criticism, but not a true black and white knock against the game.

No, I'm not a cultural relativist. Some things are inherently black or white, but in the case of ME2 plot details, very few are quantifiable flaws (I'll concede the shuttle to nowhere, that to me seems like a simple overlooked plot hole). 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaelducan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
The evidence we have for product approval is staggering in this day and age. ME2 killed it. KILLED it, and the evidence we have for it's disapproval is minute. I won't bring stats in again, because the foolio's that don't get it never will, and I'm tired of wasting my breath, so instead I'll just compare the two sides of the scale with no numbers. The criticism is far outweighed by the praise (and said praise does include story, not always the main point, but usually mentioned positively in journalistic reviews).

We can point to thousands of positive feedback examples. Concrete, actual examples of positive feedback in the range of the 90% percentile. Conversely? Maybe 100 different users on the BSN with a bone to pick.

Meaningless.
 
Many people think that McDonands hamburgers are the height of sandwiches, and that Jersey Shore and American Idol are great television. 

Straw man. Taste is not what I'm talking about. Quality is. How many people who eat McDonald's think it's good as compared to other fast food. How many people who like Reality TV think Jersey Shore is a good reality show and American Idol is a good singing competition.

Don't compare apples and cars.

Don't cite consumer response and then claim we're still talking about quality. 

[onelifecrisis]

Phaelducan wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

According to you. It's not notpicking to again point out that you are from all appearances in the minority of people who think that the story was "bad." I'm not talking about the merits of the overall game in this context anymore, I'm talking about the merits of the plot itself. You didn't care for it. Fine, but keep in mind that your expectations have a great deal more to do with your disappointment then actual quantifiable flaws in the game. I say quantifiable as again, I think Jack was stupid and pointless, but there are many who disagree.

I'm a little confused by the bold bit. Did you mean that the other way around?

"your disappointment have a great deal more to do with your expectations" (?)

As for quantifiable flaws, there are many. There's 200 pages of them right here. Or rather, there's 100 pages of flaws and 100 pages of people guessing (key word) at plausible explanations for those flaws. I don't see much point in me re-listing plot holes so that you can take guesses at what the missing pieces might be in order to "prove" that the plot isn't flawed.

The Lazarus Project is not a quantifiable flaw. Just because some people thought it was wonky doesn't mean it was inherently bad. I had no problem with it. None. Many others agree. That is enough to say it's not a quantifiable flaw. It's certainly worthy of subjective criticism, but not a true black and white knock against the game.

No, I'm not a cultural relativist. Some things are inherently black or white, but in the case of ME2 plot details, very few are quantifiable flaws (I'll concede the shuttle to nowhere, that to me seems like a simple overlooked plot hole). 

You guys sure like the big words. I don't know what postmodernism is, or what a cultural relativist is. Perhaps more to the point, I'm not sure what you would class as a "black and white knock against the game". But since you mentioned the Lazarus Project specifically, how about...

Wilson (or whatever his name was, it's been a while): "Commander Shepard is alive! This is the most amazing medical achievement in recorded history!"

Five minutes later...

Shepard: "Cerberus rebuilt me."
Praza: "Likely story. No organisation would commit so many resources to bring back one soldier."
So... not only does Praza already know that resurrection is possible, he actually knows how much it costs?
Tali: "You haven't seen Shepard in action, Praza. Trust me, it was worth it."
And Tali knows too? I guess it's common knowledge, then?

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I'll concede the shuttle to nowhere, that to me seems like a simple overlooked plot hole.

I thought it was supposed to be for the last loyalty quest you do (and the way I play it would be Legion's LQ) all the squad mates come along because they didn't know who Shepard was going take with her/him. Now obviously it didn't work out that way.
 
The way it works in my head is that they went on training mission, to get the team work together better. That is my personal story it's not offical and not everyone's else this is my personal idea.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To you? Probably. But then again, your standards seem exceptionally low.

You have no idea how low. I mean, here I am responding to you.

And I actually looked at your post. I feel dirty already.

Ok, so now Soronnar's point is that Elvis was pretty bad singer. roflmao

If you don't know what my point is, why not ask me? This avalance of false assumptions is not getting any funnier.
No my boy..that was not my point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sajuro wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's not Sheps job to baby sit. The ship has a councilor (Kelly) for a reason.

Not to mention that some cases are excusable (like Miranda, Thane and Jacob), while others (like Jack) aren't.

If you read the post above you, or knew anything about leadership positions, it is the leader's job to make sure everyone is in top shape and not just to boss them around.
Though I must ask why you consider Jack's mission or trauma/lack of focus to be inexcusable.

Because there's no urgency to it. Theer's no real wight.
for miranda, the life of her sister is in danger. For thane, the life of his sone is in danger. Jack just wants ot blow up soem abandoned facility. That can wait.


And b.t.w. - the leaders job is not to solve everyones problem. The leaders job is to be informed and make sure the tem functions despite any problems.

[Mister Mida]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

I said "player-affected narrative".

I haven't player Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol, I've just read reviews and heard talk. And I've only just started playing DXHR. But in any case, I think you've mistaken narrative for plot. The ME games showed that a player can affect the narrative without it having any impact on the plot, and that's what other games are doing too.

I don't see how ME specifically affected other devs in doing so. Maybe Bioware in general. But I've seen Fable doing that as well. The universe perceives you differently depending on your actions without affecting plot, assuming I got your interpretation of narrative right.

Also citing games without knowing for sure since you haven't played doesn't help your argument.

I said "the positive effect that I believe the ME games have had on the industry". It wasn't an argument. Why are trying to make it into one? I'm just saying that player-affected dialgue (see my edit on the post you quoted) is appearing in more AAA games, and I like it, and I believe this is (at least in part) thanks to the ME games.

I don't want to make it an argument. I said:

But that's just me.

But okay I'll stop.

[Lotion Soronarr]

unfringed wrote...

At times he makes very good points, at times he's overly pedantic. Don't see why this deserves over 200 pages, are fanboys really so sensitive to criticism of some of the plot holes in Mass Effect?

Yes.

[onelifecrisis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To you? Probably. But then again, your standards seem exceptionally low.

You have no idea how low. I mean, here I am responding to you.

And I actually looked at your post. I feel dirty already.

Enough foreplay, you two get a room.

[Killjoy Cutter]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

According to you. It's not notpicking to again point out that you are from all appearances in the minority of people who think that the story was "bad." I'm not talking about the merits of the overall game in this context anymore, I'm talking about the merits of the plot itself. You didn't care for it. Fine, but keep in mind that your expectations have a great deal more to do with your disappointment then actual quantifiable flaws in the game. I say quantifiable as again, I think Jack was stupid and pointless, but there are many who disagree.

I'm a little confused by the bold bit. Did you mean that the other way around?

"your disappointment have a great deal more to do with your expectations" (?)

As for quantifiable flaws, there are many. There's 200 pages of them right here. Or rather, there's 100 pages of flaws and 100 pages of people guessing (key word) at plausible explanations for those flaws. I don't see much point in me re-listing plot holes so that you can take guesses at what the missing pieces might be in order to "prove" that the plot isn't flawed.

The Lazarus Project is not a quantifiable flaw. Just because some people thought it was wonky doesn't mean it was inherently bad. I had no problem with it. None. Many others agree. That is enough to say it's not a quantifiable flaw. It's certainly worthy of subjective criticism, but not a true black and white knock against the game.

No, I'm not a cultural relativist. Some things are inherently black or white, but in the case of ME2 plot details, very few are quantifiable flaws (I'll concede the shuttle to nowhere, that to me seems like a simple overlooked plot hole). 

You guys sure like the big words. I don't know what postmodernism is, or what a cultural relativist is. Perhaps more to the point, I'm not sure what you would class as a "black and white knock against the game". But since you mentioned the Lazarus Project specifically, how about...

Wilson (or whatever his name was, it's been a while): "Commander Shepard is alive! This is the most amazing medical achievement in recorded history!"

Five minutes later...

Shepard: "Cerberus rebuilt me."
Praza: "Likely story. No organisation would commit so many resources to bring back one soldier."
So... not only does Praza already know that resurrection is possible, he actually knows how much it costs?
Tali: "You haven't seen Shepard in action, Praza. Trust me, it was worth it."
And Tali knows too? I guess it's common knowledge, then?

"Postmodernism" boils down to the notion that everything is subjective, everything is relative, everything is cultural, there are no absolutes, there is nothing without perception.  It's bunk. 

I'll have to find a clip of the Freedom's Progress cutscene to listen to the entire conversation before commenting.  Let's see...  meh, all the videos I'm finding so far are from non-imported playthroughs or whatever, and missing parts of that dialogue. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

100k wrote...
-An explaination of the non-organic Prothean Cipher maintaining Shepard's personality and memories solves the issue brain matter and cellular degredation.

Eh? There is nothing non-organic about the Cypher.

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

For a real life comparison, if I am doing coding work, my mind is focused on writing the code to set up the website, not on a fight I had with a family member weeks ago. I'll go you one better, even if my mother was in the hospital.

Congrats, you're an effing machine.  Bully for you. 

I just love when forum members start portraying their super mega abilities to strangers in the internet.