6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkitekt]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

It's funny how you contradicted yourself in three single lines.

If the element of surprise "never comes to play", how come they "should have expected us" and "been prepared..." etc? If they were unprepared, that is because the element of surprise did come to play an important role. But it's funny to see you twist your own mind and confuse yourself in a loop .

[arne1234]

Shepard could have taken the collector they where testing on and used the cypher to have a vision of what lies behind the omega relay using the collector.


Alternativly he could have attached a probe to the reaper ships hull and let it piggyback with the collector ship trough the relay and back.

as a third option Shepard could have yust assumend it was a trap and let mordin make a virus so the locust inside the collector vessel attack the collectors themself and use then use the collector ship as a trojan horse

Modifié par arne1234, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[The Interloper]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

It's funny how you contradicted yourself in three single lines.

If the element of surprise "never comes to play", how come they "should have expected us" and "been prepared..." etc? If they were unprepared, that is because the element of surprise did come to play an important role. But it's funny to see you twist your own mind and confuse yourself in a loop .

And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

But its all moot anyway and has nothing to do with my original point.

[arne1234]

a third option Shepard could have let mordin make something that would let the collector swarm attack the collectors and then use the collector ship itself as a trojan horse

[Arkitekt]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

It's funny how you contradicted yourself in three single lines.

If the element of surprise "never comes to play", how come they "should have expected us" and "been prepared..." etc? If they were unprepared, that is because the element of surprise did come to play an important role. But it's funny to see you twist your own mind and confuse yourself in a loop .

And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

How do you know they knew you were coming?

[arne1234]

because their was a virus on the IFF that sended a distress call to collector vessel, it then almost appeard instantly starting the mission you play as Joker

[Notlikeyoucare]

The Interloper wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

Did Shepards death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did the Cerberus Railroading ruin the game? No. Did the brain melting encounter on Horizon ruin the game? Did the contrived way the suicide mission plays out ruin the game? No. Did the Reaper Terminator ruin the game? That's a tough one.

The point is, none of these things individually runied the game. I could have probably taken 1 or 2 of them. But when you lump then altogether, yes, its rather hard to take the story seriously.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

It's funny how you contradicted yourself in three single lines.

If the element of surprise "never comes to play", how come they "should have expected us" and "been prepared..." etc? If they were unprepared, that is because the element of surprise did come to play an important role. But it's funny to see you twist your own mind and confuse yourself in a loop .

And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

How do you know they knew you were coming?

Because they know we had an IFF. That's how they were able to track us afterall.

[aTrueFool]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

If only Shepard had access to a ship made for recon missions maybe with some kind of stealth system on board. Some sort of Stealthy Recony ship maybe with 2 in there somewhere, related to the north coast of France.

[Lukertin]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

But its all moot anyway and has nothing to do with my original point.

There's nothing to suggest the Occuli aren't anything but automated defense drones that have been lying around for millenia ready to take care of the remains of any ship that stumbles through the Omega Relay.

Furthermore, the Collector base manages to launch their ONLY COMBAT READY ship a few minutes before Normandy reaches the base is not called being prepared. If China were to send a MiG carrying a nuclear bomb towards LA and the USAF managed to scramble F-18s when the MiG was en route to pass over LA in 2 minutes, that is known as "we were unprepared".

Being surprised and being unprepared are two different things, I will grant you this. However, it is unreasonable to believe that the Collectors are completely devoid of intelligence, and are incapable of coming up with a plan (vis a vis Harbinger) to respond to something they are fully aware could happen.

[The Interloper]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

Did Shepards death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did the Cerberus Railroading ruin the game? No. Did the brain melting encounter on Horizon ruin the game? Did the contrived way the suicide mission plays out ruin the game? No. Did the Reaper Terminator ruin the game? That's a tough one.

The point is, none of these things individually runied the game. I could have probably taken 1 or 2 of them. But when you lump then altogether, yes, its rather hard to take the story seriously.

That's your opinion. The way I see it, none of the issue made any permanant or lasting damage to the storyline. Believe me, I've played games with bad stories that had multiple, gaping holes that ruined the story and had to be declared non-canon. None of ME's holes aren't really that big. And I still don't understand the huge fuss with the Human Reaper.

If the errors make it "hard to take it seriously," for you, fine. But you cannot expect everyone to drop everything and dismiss the story because of some wonky parts. Hell, even Smudboy says ME1 had lots of (also mostly very small) plotholes, but then declared them okay "because they don't break suspension of disbelief. (paraphrasing)" Erm....so errors are okay, and lots of errors are okay, just not these ones, and this many. Okay.

That's your opinion. We're getting to "which is better, chocolate or vanilla" territory. The argument never ends because it's impossible to sway the other person to your exact interpretation of things, as 200+ pages attest.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Lukertin wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

But its all moot anyway and has nothing to do with my original point.

There's nothing to suggest the Occuli aren't anything but automated defense drones that have been lying around for millenia ready to take care of the remains of any ship that stumbles through the Omega Relay.

Furthermore, the Collector base manages to launch their ONLY COMBAT READY ship a few minutes before Normandy reaches the base is not called being prepared. If China were to send a MiG carrying a nuclear bomb towards LA and the USAF managed to scramble F-18s when the MiG was en route to pass over LA in 2 minutes, that is known as "we were unprepared".

Being surprised and being unprepared are two different things, I will grant you this. However, it is unreasonable to believe that the Collectors are completely devoid of intelligence, and are incapable of coming up with a plan (vis a vis Harbinger) to respond to something they are fully aware could happen.

By that logic. theres nothing to suggest the Collectors weren't simply repreparing the ship for launch. It still begs the question of why HARBINGER didn't think of this obvious possibility.

But this does give me another problem. What, if anything did the IFF actually do? It didn't re-program the Occuli to udentify us as friend. It didn't put any of the uther destroyed ships floating around into a star or black hole, so what good was it?

[Notlikeyoucare]

The Interloper wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

Did Shepards death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did the Cerberus Railroading ruin the game? No. Did the brain melting encounter on Horizon ruin the game? Did the contrived way the suicide mission plays out ruin the game? No. Did the Reaper Terminator ruin the game? That's a tough one.

The point is, none of these things individually runied the game. I could have probably taken 1 or 2 of them. But when you lump then altogether, yes, its rather hard to take the story seriously.

That's your opinion. The way I see it, none of the issue made any permanant or lasting damage to the storyline. Believe me, I've played games with bad stories that had multiple, gaping holes that ruined the story and had to be declared non-canon. None of ME's holes aren't really that big. And I still don't understand the huge fuss with the Human Reaper.

If the errors make it "hard to take it seriously," for you, fine. But you cannot expect everyone to drop everything and dismiss the story because of some wonky parts. Hell, even Smudboy says ME1 had lots of (also mostly very small) plotholes, but then declared them okay "because they don't break suspension of disbelief. (paraphrasing)" Erm....so errors are okay, and lots of errors are okay, just not these ones, and this many. Okay.

That's your opinion. We're getting to "which is better, chocolate or vanilla" territory. The argument never ends because it's impossible to sway the other person to your exact interpretation of things, as 200+ pages attest.

But that doesn't change the fact that everything I listed contains bad writing which is consistent throughout . Yes I extrapolated to my opinion, but that doesn't make these things any less of a problem. I really don't care how the story plays out, it just needs to make sense.

[CroGamer002]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Because they know we had an IFF. That's how they were able to track us afterall.

And did they know EDI managed to get it working?

They don't know she has Reaper tech on her and to figure out she would able to crack up Reaper tech.

[Lukertin]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
By that logic. theres nothing to suggest the Collectors weren't simply repreparing the ship for launch. It still begs the question of why HARBINGER didn't think of this obvious possibility.

That suggests the Collector ship even needs to do something like 'refuel' (or discharge) on a consistent basis, and that doing this means the ship has to fully dock into its berth within the base.

But this does give me another problem. What, if anything did the IFF actually do? It didn't re-program the Occuli to udentify us as friend. It didn't put any of the uther destroyed ships floating around into a star or black hole, so what good was it?

The mass effect relay would break apart ships not having an IFF? Submit the ship to lethal doses of radiation? I don't know--does it even matter? Furthermore, how would you even be able to figure that out without performing an analysis of the Relay itself by taking it apart and comparing it to other Relays? Or do you think the ME universe is one where standards of scientific inquiry and analytical reverse engineering don't exist, and people are able to magically know things because a glowing screen says so?

Modifié par Lukertin, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

Mesina2 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Because they know we had an IFF. That's how they were able to track us afterall.

And did they know EDI managed to get it working?

They don't know she has Reaper tech on her and to figure out she would able to crack up Reaper tech.

From what I remember, it was already working correctly, it just contained a virus, which EDI cleaned up.

[The Interloper]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But that doesn't change the fact that everything I listed contains bad writing which is consistent throughout . Yes I extrapolated to my opinion, but that doesn't make these things any less of a problem. I really don't care how the story plays out, it just needs to make sense.

It doesn't make it any more of a problem, either.

 ME1 had contrivances and obscure points, but nobody seems to care about the bad writing in that game. What makes ME2 so special, so remarkable?

The point seems to be not that plot holes are bad, but that plot holes in ME2 are marginally worse than plot holes in ME1. And I don't think that's not really something worth fussing about.

[CroGamer002]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Because they know we had an IFF. That's how they were able to track us afterall.

And did they know EDI managed to get it working?

They don't know she has Reaper tech on her and to figure out she would able to crack up Reaper tech.

From what I remember, it was already working correctly, it just contained a virus, which EDI cleaned up.

And how do Collectors and Reapers know that?

[Arkitekt]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But it doesn't matter. With the way the story plays out, the element of suprise never comes into play. Immediately upon entering the debris field, the Occuli attack us, the Collectors attack us. Besides, they ALREADY know we have an IFF because thats what they used to track us. They should have expected us and been prepared for something with an IFF to come through. At least if we send a scout ship through we can observe any damage it might of taken to gain an idea of what defenses might be on the other side and how to combat them.

It's funny how you contradicted yourself in three single lines.

If the element of surprise "never comes to play", how come they "should have expected us" and "been prepared..." etc? If they were unprepared, that is because the element of surprise did come to play an important role. But it's funny to see you twist your own mind and confuse yourself in a loop .

And they were. The Occuli attacked us. Its not an element of suprise if they know you're coming. Perhaps I should have finished that sentence. And no, being unprepared does not necessarily imply suprise. You could know when and where something is coming from and still be unprepared.

How do you know they knew you were coming?

Because they know we had an IFF. That's how they were able to track us afterall.

Incomplete information to reach the conclusion aforementioned. Hindsight is easy.

[Il Divo]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

But this does give me another problem. What, if anything did the IFF actually do? It didn't re-program the Occuli to udentify us as friend. It didn't put any of the uther destroyed ships floating around into a star or black hole, so what good was it?

The IFF allowed more sophisticated Mass Effect jumps. This is why most other ships weren't able to make it back through the relay. Beyond the Omega IV, there is a "safe zone" which the more accurate IFF allows ships to reach. Without the IFF, there is a significant chance that any ship traveling through the relay will not land in the safe zone.

[Arkitekt]

Lukertin wrote...

That suggests the Collector ship even needs to do something like 'refuel' (or discharge) on a consistent basis, and that doing this means the ship has to fully dock into its berth within the base.

I'd guess it has something to do with loading the CB with the new collected humans. Just sayin.

The mass effect relay would break apart ships not having an IFF? Submit the ship to lethal doses of radiation? I don't know--does it even matter? Furthermore, how would you even be able to figure that out without performing an analysis of the Relay itself by taking it apart and comparing it to other Relays? Or do you think the ME universe is one where standards of scientific inquiry and analytical reverse engineering don't exist, and people are able to magically know things because a glowing screen says so?

They know "something bad happens" without the IFF because no ships ever survived going inside the relay.

[Iakus]

The Interloper wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

TOo much annoyance puts huge cracks in the game.

[The Interloper]

iakus wrote...


TOo much annoyance puts huge cracks in the game.

How much is Too much?

How much is required to put huge cracks?

Cause I've seen huge cracks, and ME2 doesn't have any. A few medium ones and an array of little ones, yes, and even some of those are contestable. If that's enough to ruin things for you, well, that's your opinion. For the umpteenth time.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

Incomplete information to reach the conclusion aforementioned. Hindsight is easy.

In addition to knowing they had the IFF installed, they also know the Normandyovercame the virus and escaped their attack.  And Shepard was not among those captured.

Shepard was still out there, still mobile, and now had a working IFF.