6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

In addition to knowing they had the IFF installed, they also know the Normandyovercame the virus and escaped their attack.  And Shepard was not among those captured.

Shepard was still out there, still mobile, and now had a working IFF.

They have no way of knowing Shepard's intentions. You're, again, making stuff up.

[Iakus]

The Interloper wrote...

How much is Too much?

How much is required to put huge cracks?

Cause I've seen huge cracks, and ME2 doesn't have any. A few medium ones and an array of little ones, yes, and even some of those are contestable. If that's enough to ruin things for you, well, that's your opinion. For the umpteenth time.

Varies from person to person.  This thread is clear proof of that.

I assert that there was too much for me.  It's reasonable to assume it's too much for Smudboy.   There appear to be others who found the cracks in the story overly distracting.  Despite the fact that others clerarly don't find the cracks so disturbing, I believe Bioware could have done a far better job with the story.  

[Someone With Mass]

The Interloper wrote...
It doesn't make it any more of a problem, either.

 ME1 had contrivances and obscure points, but nobody seems to care about the bad writing in that game. What makes ME2 so special, so remarkable?

The point seems to be not that plot holes are bad, but that plot holes in ME2 are marginally worse than plot holes in ME1. And I don't think that's not really something worth fussing about.

Because ME2 wasn't exactly like ME1 and had no dragging item management systems.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

iakus wrote...

In addition to knowing they had the IFF installed, they also know the Normandyovercame the virus and escaped their attack.  And Shepard was not among those captured.

Shepard was still out there, still mobile, and now had a working IFF.

They have no way of knowing Shepard's intentions. You're, again, making stuff up.

Shepard thwarted a Collector attack on Horizon
Shepard stopped a Collector plague from spreading on Omega
Shepard boarded and investigated a Collector Cruiser
Shepard got his hands on an IFF that could give him access to the Omega IV relay.

Clearly he intended to make a pizza run to the Citadel for his squad 

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Interloper wrote...
It doesn't make it any more of a problem, either.

 ME1 had contrivances and obscure points, but nobody seems to care about the bad writing in that game. What makes ME2 so special, so remarkable?

The point seems to be not that plot holes are bad, but that plot holes in ME2 are marginally worse than plot holes in ME1. And I don't think that's not really something worth fussing about.

Because ME2 wasn't exactly like ME1 and had no dragging item management systems.

Wa that really necessary?

[Someone With Mass]

I think ME2 suffered from having way too many characters, though.

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

Clearly he intended to make a pizza run to the Citadel for his squad 

The only thing that the Collectors are able to deduce from Shepard's actions is that he intends to stop them from collecting humans. Considering that no ship has ever survived going through omega 4, it's completely fair to not suspect that this is their next move. "He wouldn't be that crazy". Tough luck, Harby, Shep is Chuck Norris grand grand grand son.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Interloper wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Regarding the probe thing: Is it really a game-breaker if it can be solved by one or two extra lines of dialogue?

That.

It applies to almost all of the issues brought up here.

Annoying? Sure. Breaks the game? No.

And that exactly why it so sucks. It could have been solved with just a few extra lines of dialouge. It was easy to fix. Yet it wasn't fixed.

[Arkitekt]

Well then, if you are so worried, make a good list of these additions and send a message to Bioware, so they can make a Lord Sophomore's cut edition. Two to three people are eagerly waiting...

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

The only thing that the Collectors are able to deduce from Shepard's actions is that he intends to stop them from collecting humans. Considering that no ship has ever survived going through omega 4, it's completely fair to not suspect that this is their next move. "He wouldn't be that crazy". Tough luck, Harby, Shep is Chuck Norris grand grand grand son.

Then why would Shepard strap a Reaper IFF to his ship?  That by itself is pretty crazy.  Cerberus-scientist crazy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

iakus wrote...

Clearly he intended to make a pizza run to the Citadel for his squad 

The only thing that the Collectors are able to deduce from Shepard's actions is that he intends to stop them from collecting humans. Considering that no ship has ever survived going through omega 4, it's completely fair to not suspect that this is their next move. "He wouldn't be that crazy". Tough luck, Harby, Shep is Chuck Norris grand grand grand son.

Redicolous argumentation.

Harby know Normandy 2 is functional, shep is out there and has the IFF.
And the reason why other ships didn't survive the trip was because they didn't have hte IFF. And Shep has it. And Harby knows exactly what it can do.

So exactly on what kind of logic are you operating here?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Interloper wrote...

iakus wrote...


TOo much annoyance puts huge cracks in the game.

How much is Too much?

How much is required to put huge cracks?

Cause I've seen huge cracks, and ME2 doesn't have any. A few medium ones and an array of little ones, yes, and even some of those are contestable. If that's enough to ruin things for you, well, that's your opinion. For the umpteenth time.

You are blind to cracks.
ME2 had plenty, and big ones. If you don't see them or refuse to acknowledge them that's your problem.

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

The only thing that the Collectors are able to deduce from Shepard's actions is that he intends to stop them from collecting humans. Considering that no ship has ever survived going through omega 4, it's completely fair to not suspect that this is their next move. "He wouldn't be that crazy". Tough luck, Harby, Shep is Chuck Norris grand grand grand son.

Then why would Shepard strap a Reaper IFF to his ship?  That by itself is pretty crazy.  Cerberus-scientist crazy.

Hey look, it's a cerberus ship! You are accusing them of being consistent? God forbid! 

[Lady Olivia]

The Interloper wrote...

ME1 had contrivances and obscure points, but nobody seems to care about the bad writing in that game. What makes ME2 so special, so remarkable?

The point seems to be not that plot holes are bad, but that plot holes in ME2 are marginally worse than plot holes in ME1. And I don't think that's not really something worth fussing about.

Maybe most people here played ME long before ME2 and simply forgot? It was the other way around for me, and while I had some facepalm moments in ME2, I spent at least half of ME thinking, "Oh yeah? Huh? Really? So what?"

The only thing lacking from ME2 that I'd give to ME is a general sense of cohesion: in ME everything links directly to the main plot. In ME2, only about half the content does.

[Veex]

iakus wrote...

Then why would Shepard strap a Reaper IFF to his ship?  That by itself is pretty crazy.  Cerberus-scientist crazy.

So that the Collectors wouldn't be able to pinpoint the Normandy's location, as they did twice? I think it safe to assume that, as we're shown in the introduction of ME2, the Collectors were able to locate the Normandy even with the stealth systems online. Changing the friend/foe identity was probably something they should have done sooner.

Jeez BioWare, another plot hole!

[Lady Olivia]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You are blind to cracks.

Yeah. It's called suspended disbelief. Comes easy to some, not so easy to others, why is that so difficult to believe?

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And the reason why other ships didn't survive the trip was because they didn't have hte IFF. And Shep has it. And Harby knows exactly what it can do.

We don't know if Harby knows Shep has the IFF "working". We don't even know if Harby knows that it was an IFF that tracked the Normandy, since it could have been any other kind of reaper tech that could have spread the virus. And we don't know if Harby knew that EDI managed to clean the IFF, and we also do not know if Harby is aware that Shepard will really try to use it after the events that got his crew abducted.

IOW, you are making a ton of assumptions there, while being completely blind to them, add insult to injury and call others "blind". Forreal.

[The Interloper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And that exactly why it so sucks. It could have been solved with just a few extra lines of dialouge. It was easy to fix. Yet it wasn't fixed.

And that's exactly why it doesn't bother me so much.

Smudboy and co. try to argue that there are writing problems. I agree. So? They also agrue that these minor omissions make the story fundamentally flawed. They don't. It's uneven execution, and that's a far more trivial issue. Annoying, but not painful. Dropping a few good cookies isn't the same as baking the whole batch with salt instead of sugar. It might become an issue if you always drop cookies every time you make a batch, but that's hasn't really happened yet.

I think that allegory makes sense...I'm sure someone will let me know.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Interloper wrote...
How much is Too much?

How much is required to put huge cracks?

Cause I've seen huge cracks, and ME2 doesn't have any. A few medium ones and an array of little ones, yes, and even some of those are contestable. If that's enough to ruin things for you, well, that's your opinion. For the umpteenth time.

You are blind to cracks.
ME2 had plenty, and big ones. If you don't see them or refuse to acknowledge them that's your problem.

Wha? I just admitted ME2 has cracks in the quote box. How does that equate "don't see or refuse to acknowledge?"

You're arguing against a point I never made. What I said was that I don't consider the cracks big. You said I should consider them big....for no given reason.

So didn't read my post and didn't make a counterpoint....high five?

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

Hey look, it's a cerberus ship! You are accusing them of being consistent? God forbid! 

And if the Normandy was being run by Cerberus, that would make perfect sense.  But this is Shepard, a human who has caused the Reapers enough trouble to gain their personal attention. This was no random experiement.  This was something to be used against the Collectors.

Plus the IFF is Reaper technology.  Harbringer would know that it could get past the security lockouts on the Relay.

[Iakus]

The Interloper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And that exactly why it so sucks. It could have been solved with just a few extra lines of dialouge. It was easy to fix. Yet it wasn't fixed.

And that's exactly why it doesn't bother me so much.

Smudboy and co. try to argue that there are writing problems. I agree. So? They also agrue that these minor omissions make the story fundamentally flawed. They don't. It's uneven execution, and that's a far more trivial issue. Annoying, but not painful. Dropping a few good cookies isn't the same as baking the whole batch with salt instead of sugar. It might become an issue if you always drop cookies every time you make a batch, but that's hasn't really happened yet.

I think that allegory makes sense...I'm sure someone will let me know.

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...

Modifié par iakus, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...

I wouldn't say that's particularly applicable. The point of his comparison is that it can always be handled better, but there comes a point where we accept what we're given. I can imagine a million different ways that some of my favorite games could be made "better", but that doesn't mean I'm not content with the released product. If I choose to dislike any product due to a few flaws, it's impossible to be appeased. This applies to any Bioware game.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lady Olivia wrote...
Yeah. It's called suspended disbelief. Comes easy to some, not so easy to others, why is that so difficult to believe?

Because that'd be too easy.

[The Interloper]

iakus wrote...

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...

Stop making blanket statements like they alone prove your point. It's like saying every game that was bad was bad because of errors.

ME2 has errors.

Therefore, ME2 is a bad game.

Huh? Last time I checked, there was a middle ground. I'm seeing a that fact either ignored or underplayed.

[Someone With Mass]

ME1 had a couple of errors too, but I can't see anyone complaining about them or how ME1 sucks.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...

I wouldn't say that's particularly applicable. The point of his comparison is that it can always be handled better, but there comes a point where we accept what we're given. I can imagine a million different ways that some of my favorite games could be made "better", but that doesn't mean I'm not content with the released product. If I choose to dislike any product due to a few flaws, it's impossible to be appeased. This applies to any Bioware game.

Things can always be better.  No arguement there.  But some people have an easier time accepting certain imperfections than others.  Some imperfections are more noticeable.  And these imperfections can build up, causing more and more cracks in a storyline.  For some, it gets to a point where these flaws are no longer acceptable.  And just because a problem could have been fixed with the proper application of a few lines, does not make the problem suddenly go away or trivializes it.

Example, since it's been a big topic here lately:  Shepard's death.  Some here think it's not a big deal.  Others find it bugs them how thoroughly Shepard died, questioning how his corpse would be salvageable at all.  How the Lazarus Project is handled so casually, how Shepard's return isn't a big deal, even to Shepard himself,  To many, it's less a plot point than a running gag in the game.

Or the Omega IV Relay:  People now are talking about how it's largely ignored, we have no idea what's on the other side, and no attempts appear to be made to discover what's there.  From there we get pages and pages of posts regarding how probes should or should not have been tried, how whether it was better to jump blind and risk snnihilation  or scout ahead, and risk losing "the element of suprise".  How the whether the squad was "balanced for anything" or it was dumb luck Shepard had just what was needed.

From little cracks come big problems.  Especially when the spread throughout the game itself.  I'm just trying to say that while some fans have no problems ignoring "weak spots" in the narrative, to others it is in fact a big deal, It's not always petty nitpicking.  And it frankly bugs me how some people (not you, Il Divo) can sound very condecending towards those who dare to find some of these things worthy of comment.

Not that some of those who point out the problems are exactly helpful towards the debate either, of course.