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[Shepard the Leper]

iakus wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Reapers are space monsters, it's not like we absolutely need to know the finest detail of why they do what they do...

VIgil: "In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping them.  Not in understanding them"

Yeah, but to stop them we need to understand them first.

ME1 has made it clear there's no chance to defeat the Reapers in a "fair" fight. They are too strong thus we need to figure out something else to take them down. Our survival depends on understanding them; or they will be unstoppable.

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

iakus wrote...
It's stuff like this that makes me see ME2 as wasted potential...

Yes, we know. Because you tell us. Every single day. 

Such an attentive student...

[Shepard the Leper]

Arkitekt wrote...

We don't know "how" reapers are constructed. We know they apparently reap organics' "essence" (whatever that is) in order to build another one. My best guess would place the first reaper as a post-singularity machine that "uploaded" an entire civilization into it, and is now in search for "friends". Why that is is still unknown.

My view what a Reaper is doesn't fit ME2's Terminator explanation. In ME1 it looks like the Reaper (Sovereign) takes control over Saren's body. The moment Shepard "kills" this Saren-Reaper, the ship's shields fail and it is easily destroyed (killing the Saren-Reaper destroyed the ship).

In ME2 we see something telling the Collector general he's failed and it leaves. To me that looks like Reapers are not machines with different parts, but like "spirits" with the ability to control / use advanced machinery and/or organics.

I can understand the concept of feeding or fuel, but there's no real explanation. We have to assume this pulp has some use, but I would like a little more info about how and why.

Soverreign says nothing about the human reaper. The human reaper is to be constructed with earth's humans, who will be reaped when the reapers get there. This is told when you enter the collector's ship and they claim that the size of it is so big that they assuredly are targetting "Earth". The only way to do so is with the reapers themselves.

True, but it remains a mystery how your squadmates draw that conclusion. I would have preferred to obtain this information by checking their systems or through interrogating a Collector.

You answered your own question. Reapers are too "big" for these operations. They need "mindless drones", and organics that have been indoctrinated or messed up with are good "drones". This is also a continuation of the Cthuluh mythos, where something similar happened in that mythology.

Apparently they were waiting for the right organics to prove themselves worthy of attention and "reaperization". Apparently this "cull" happens every 50k years. You don't crop bananas every week. You wait for them to be mature.

I understand why they use slaves, but not their purpose. It doesn't make sense to build a new Reaper with the risk to expose themselves when they can harvest whatever they want the moment they arrive in numbers. Taking samples to find "worthy" organics in advance doesn't require harvesting complete colonies.

It's what we are trying to tell you. Reaper's motivations were completely unclear in ME1. ME2 shows why they destroy civilizations every 50k years: to "post-singularize them" and make them into a new reaper. Further clarifications may be shown in  ME3.

Apparently many intelligent people imagined exactly the same damned thing when they played the game. Quite extraordinary, isn't it? Perhaps we are witnessing a huge mental telepathic revolution! Or... alternatively, it's what the game tells anyone with a ****ing brain turned on when they play it. Let's guess where the Ockham's razor will "reap".

The Reapers are way too interesting. I want to get to know them a little. The danger is obvious, but there are no motives except some speculations in both games which we have to assume are true. I really liked how you discovered the Reapers in ME1 although the game revolved around tracking down Saren. Some solid info about why the Collectors are doing what they're doing and the connection to the Reapers, or at least a good lead to go after the Collectors at the start of ME2 would have made things a lot more convincing imo.

Hell, that's not a bad characterization of ME2 actually. It's exagerated due to what we actually learned about the reapers, and there's more than gardening and fishing going on (specially if we add the DLCs), but that's not bad stuff to say. However, Smudboy states unequivocally that this aspect is "BAD", objectively, and that they should have had focused more on the reaper stuff. Well I disagree. Not that I wouldn't like the alternative, perhaps I'd have enjoyed more, but I do respect their decision. The way ME2 is made makes us get into a live universe where multiple other things, crowded with intents, purposes, politics, drama, etc. is happening all over the place. It feels like a good sci fi tv show, where each episode has its own narrative, rather than a 20 hour long movie. (and that's probably why I tolerate repeats of ME2 much more than in ME1).

Yeah, I would have preferred more plot cohesion in ME2 and I missed the Reapers. I do however agree with some of Smudboys points. Shepard's death and resurrection resulting in teaming up with TIM is bad writing. Shepard should have started where ME1 ended, searching for Reaper intel. Or as a Citadel Spectre send to investigate Freedom's Progress. Cerberus should have been a last resort to obtain the resources needed to go after the Collectors to figure out what they're doing to help the Reapers - that makes sense and would have spared us the long (annoying and unskippable) intro (which only purpose is to make it believable to work with/for Cerberus).

There's lots of stuff that could have been done better regarding ME2's main plot. To me the whole Collector issue was little more than a distraction from ME2's strongest aspect - the characters. A better main plot would have made an already great game slightly better. I do hope ME3 will have a solid main-plot and isn't about building an army only. That would be fun enough, but I expect more from Bioware.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

I never saw so much "wasted potential" being so fervently enjoyed by so many people and critics.

I'm sure that Space Odissey was also a "wasted potential" in this kind of criteria, "Childhood's End" or "Foundation" series. All rubbish plots, due to their massive detail little plot holes. Pure junk fest.

My theory is quite another. We are witnessing the dawn of a new "type" of gaming, one where game and "cinematics" are beggining to merge into each other. Mass Effect 1 and 2 were two games that crossed some subtle thresholds of awesomeness, some of which made some people start to think and demand much much more than they used to do with games beforehand. However, they demand this without thinking that perhaps they wouldn't have with any other game.

The problem with that while "cinematics" can add to a story and make it better, it cannot be a story itself.  Any more than a cake can be made completely out of frosting.  

I say "wasted potential" not from a gameplay or cinematic sense, but from a story.  Such may not be important to eveyone, but it's vital to me.  The loyalty missions are just random missions dealing with "unfinished business" each character still has to deal with.  Featuring enemies that have nothing to do with the main storyline.  Nothing is built from them.  They do not advance the story.  All they do is keep them alive in the SM for no other reason than they're "focused"

Today I saw two ideas for Jack's mission that could easily have incorporated it in to the main story with minimal effort.  With a little time, I have no doubt the same thing could have been done with each and every loyalty mission.  Maybe even some of the recruitment issions as well.  If something like that was done, I could believe I was playing one game, and not a dozen or so smaller games tied together with a Maguffin.

If wanting a game which places so much emphasis on continuing a story across a trilogy to have a strong narrative makes me unreasonably demanding, well, I guess I'm unreasonable.  Funny how Bioware typically obliged in this.

[Iakus]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Yeah, but to stop them we need to understand them first.

ME1 has made it clear there's no chance to defeat the Reapers in a "fair" fight. They are too strong thus we need to figure out something else to take them down. Our survival depends on understanding them; or they will be unstoppable.

No particular disagreement there.  I wish we'd been given a more concrete clue (not answer) on how to deal with the fleet rather than the rather bizzare "they wanna make babies with us" motivation.  Would have at least given a sense of accomplishing something in the grand scheme

Though I am willing to tkae a wait and see attitude towards the whole reproduction thing.  Maybe something will come of it..  

I guess the only "understanding" that's really important is "how do we kill them?" 

[Arkitekt]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

We don't know "how" reapers are constructed. We know they apparently reap organics' "essence" (whatever that is) in order to build another one. My best guess would place the first reaper as a post-singularity machine that "uploaded" an entire civilization into it, and is now in search for "friends". Why that is is still unknown.

My view what a Reaper is doesn't fit ME2's Terminator explanation. In ME1 it looks like the Reaper (Sovereign) takes control over Saren's body. The moment Shepard "kills" this Saren-Reaper, the ship's shields fail and it is easily destroyed (killing the Saren-Reaper destroyed the ship).

In ME2 we see something telling the Collector general he's failed and it leaves. To me that looks like Reapers are not machines with different parts, but like "spirits" with the ability to control / use advanced machinery and/or organics.

I can understand the concept of feeding or fuel, but there's no real explanation. We have to assume this pulp has some use, but I would like a little more info about how and why.

It's not feeding or fuel, as I understand it, but actually building the reaper with some matrix of the species that were selected.

True, but it remains a mystery how your squadmates draw that conclusion. I would have preferred to obtain this information by checking their systems or through interrogating a Collector.

Husks are reaper technology, and this is canon since ME1, not only for the player's eyes, but also for Shepard's. It's a damned good evidence that the Collectors are working with the reapers. If you don't accept this connection, then something's wrong with your logic, not with the game's.

I understand why they use slaves, but not their purpose. It doesn't make sense to build a new Reaper with the risk to expose themselves when they can harvest whatever they want the moment they arrive in numbers. Taking samples to find "worthy" organics in advance doesn't require harvesting complete colonies.

The collectors only started "reaping" humans shortly before their Arrival on the batarian system. Shepard wins mankind some months, but you should be aware that the Collectors' timeline intention is to work just some weeks before reapers' arrival on Earth. With all hell break loose, no one would think about some loose colonies being lost. Apart from Shepard's rogue team, the Alliance didn't make any strides against the Collectors. So apart from the big badass hero, the Collector's timeline was pretty much okay.

The Reapers are way too interesting. I want to get to know them a little. The danger is obvious, but there are no motives except some speculations in both games which we have to assume are true. I really liked how you discovered the Reapers in ME1 although the game revolved around tracking down Saren. Some solid info about why the Collectors are doing what they're doing and the connection to the Reapers, or at least a good lead to go after the Collectors at the start of ME2 would have made things a lot more convincing imo.

Sure it could have been told in a different manner. We do know what the Collectors are, though. My biggest disappointment is the complete lack of character of those "mindless drones". Harby has to replace them with his own "wit"... but it's a small problem.

I do hope ME3 will have a solid main-plot and isn't about building an army only. That would be fun enough, but I expect more from Bioware.

We'll see. I'm more worried about Cerberus and TIM's role than anything else, which seems to be going too off. The reaper stuff almost writes itself out, I'm less worried about that one.

[The Interloper]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

1. Immortal beings that simply "are" (according to Sovereign) who need organics (humans only in this case) doesn't make sense at all.

2. Why do immortals need reproduction?

3. WTF?

4. Sovereign says something different. Maybe they're both lying, who knows. Arrival also happens between ME2 and ME3. It isn't a real part of ME2.

5. Depending on Shep's background, your Shep might be the only survivor of a slave raid. Colonies dissapearing isn't something new and it's definitely not related to the Reapers. In fact, it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, considering the Reaper's efforts to erase all traces of their existence. Colonies vanishing is a good way to draw attention. You don't want that

6. Who made them "mindless"? And why? Slaves are always used to do the dirty work. Why do the Reapers need them?

7. The Collectors are Reaper builders now? They've done a poor job doing nothing for 50k years before starting to build one. Sovereign's failure was expected by the Reapers?

8. I've no idea where you got that idea.

9. Wiping out all life every now and then isn't a goal. That's sadistic, but that's all we know. Everything you've come up with is imaginary.

In addition to what ark said,

1. First of all, you're taking soveriegn literally when he has every reason to exaggerate or omit facts. He boasted that any attempts to stop him from activating the citadel were doomed to failure, and that wasn't true. Is that a plot problem too? Soveriegn he has absolutely no reason to tell you the truth. Like Obi wan has no reason to tell Luke that Vader is his father. So he lies.

More to the point you can both despise and depend on a being at the same time. The two things are not mutually exclusive at all.  There was a similar setup in the matrix. Or look at real life.

2. Immortal or not, why wouldn't they want to increase their numbers? Failing that, they have a fallen member to replace.

3. I still don't see any argument except "goo is silly." Fine. But why is it a plot problem?

4. What did soveriegn say that contradicted anything?

5. The only other ones who'd take colonies are batarians and geth, and hitting so many so fast "without a trace" is not their MO.  Then consider the timing and there's one obvious answer-besides, as I said, ME1 had leads with weaker connections. Plus, they did kill Shepard before starting, and as it turned out, without him nobody cared about the colonies.

6. Ark covered that.

7. What ark said. And soveriegn's death clearly wasn't intended; I have no idea where you got that. The collectors obviously expected to be operating with the help of the reaper fleet. With soveriegn dead, they have to go it alone, for the moment. Exactly why the HR couldn't be delayed I'm not sure, but there are many possible explanations. It all depends on the reapers motives, which we don't completely now. Maybe they thought the timeframe wouldn't be long enough for something bad to happen, especially with Shepard dead.

8 & 9. Like Ark said, you're demanding to be spoonfed here. If there's anything to have unanswered questions about, it's the lovecraftian robot gods. My point is that we have enough information and heavy implications for the plot to make sense.

Shepard the Leper wrote...

1. My view what a Reaper is doesn't fit ME2's Terminator explanation. In ME1 it looks like the Reaper (Sovereign) takes control over Saren's body. The moment Shepard "kills" this Saren-Reaper, the ship's shields fail and it is easily destroyed (killing the Saren-Reaper destroyed the ship). In ME2 we see something telling the Collector general he's failed and it leaves. To me that looks like Reapers are not machines with different parts, but like "spirits" with the ability to control / use advanced machinery and/or organics.

2. True, but it remains a mystery how your squadmates draw that conclusion. I would have preferred to obtain this information by checking their systems or through interrogating a Collector.

3. The Reapers are way too interesting. I want to get to know them a little. The danger is obvious, but there are no motives except some speculations in both games which we have to assume are true. I really liked how you discovered the Reapers in ME1 although the game revolved around tracking down Saren. Some solid info about why the Collectors are doing what they're doing and the connection to the Reapers, or at least a good lead to go after the Collectors at the start of ME2 would have made things a lot more convincing imo.

4. There's lots of stuff that could have been done better regarding ME2's main plot. To me the whole Collector issue was little more than a distraction from ME2's strongest aspect - the characters. A better main plot would have made an already great game slightly better. I do hope ME3 will have a solid main-plot and isn't about building an army only. That would be fun enough, but I expect more from Bioware.

1.  It's made clear that the collectors have been heavily modified and implanted over centuries, unlike Saren. The irony is that despite being organic bugs, the collectors are more like likeless automations then the geth. At any rate there are many possible explanations as to why the two modes of control work differently. Different reaper, different host, different implants, both at once?

2. The volume of the ship's transportation capacity made it obvious the collectors were eventually intending to attack large population centers. The question is how; Arrival explains that.

3. As ark said, some questions are obviously being left unanswered. ME2 was clearly intended to set up questions then answer them. I understand why you would want more, but the point is that we don't really need more. There's a difference between "could have been done better" and "broken."

Also, I seem to recall someone findng  in-game files holding some exposition on the relationship between the collectors and the reapers in the collectors' own words. Or something like that-I'm not sure. The devs considered further exploration on the issue and cut the content for whatever reason. So it's not like the thought never crossed their minds, and the writers obviously wrote it. And since they were the ones making decisions on the field, I'm inclined to trust their judgement.

4. Whatever the result, the collector issue was intended to be a plot point to gather the characters around, and makes sense in principle at least. Otherwise, agreed.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone had mentioned Samara's LM... the comment was made that Samara had been hunting Morinth for centuries, why couldn't she wait a bit longer?

Shep can ask about this, in a way, and Samara specifically states that she knows where Morinth is "right now", and that if she waits, it might be a long time before she finds her again.

Well, that and, you know, she could die on the mission.  Kinda hard to catch someone when you're no longer alive.

That was kinda my point. 

What stretches things somewhat is that all 12 of the squadies have something left undone in their lives that could distract them so much it gets them killed...

It's more about getting the trust of the group so they work together better more than getting the person less distracted to be able to do their job. Remember, an unloyal Miranda can get the group through the first and second door without getting herself or anyone killed. It 's about the group working together. It varied from person to person whether what is destracting them or unloyal get them or other people killed over it....outside of biotics that is.

Yes, we get that.  We all understand that.  The issue of their focus or loyalty isn't the bone of contention. 

It's that all 12 possible team members have an issue that comes up in the six months of their lives they spend with Shep on this job, that all 12 need Shep's help to solve it, and that all 12 are more likely to die if Shep doesn't help them. 

When you know you maybe dieing and you have time to preper for it, you try to get some closer to your lifes issuse. Most came up at that time while others were carried with them.

Thane wanted to do right with his son but had to do it earlier because his son was about tobecome an assasin.
Samara wants to finish the with the very thing she bacame a Jusicar for.
Jack wanted some closer and to understand why thing happen they way they did in her life.
Jacob's father issuse were pushes up because of Miranda and he would never look on his own if Miranda did not push a little.
Tali's trial happens during the mission.
Zaeed and Kasumi loyalty mission was the reason they signed up.
The reason you meet Legion is  because of the very thing you do on the his loyalty mission.
Mordin always been a teacher at heart and always conserned for his students, the thing that came up during the mission.
Grunt loyalty mission made him more focus and it came up during the mission.(And he even tells you he can wait.)
Garrus is so filled with regreat that he can't think on anything else.
And Miranda has monstorious father issues....Crazy father issus. And the dealing with her sister came up during the Mission.

.........
Point is alot of the mission are just by coincidence.
And it does not matter, you need to gain loyalty, doing the missions help. You can even decline the missions.

[dreman9999]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

1. Uh, how are Reapers constructed?
2. What's the point of the Terminator?
3. Why do they need human pulp to "build" it?
4. Is it to replace Sovereign to trigger the main attack?
5. How do you even know the Collectors are related to the Reapers? Because TIM says so?
6. Why do the Collectors work for the Reapers?
7. Why do the Reapers need the Collectors? What technology did they use?
8. Did Shep find some info about the Reapers?
9.About their strength and weakness? What's the goal of the Reapers? How many are there? Who created them? And why? etc etc etc etc.

1.With organics, appearantly. What part of that was confusing?
2. Reproduction. Beyond that Harbinger also hints, "salvation," and while that could be taken several ways, it narrows things down beyond mere baby making.
3. Really, if you can accept there are robot gods, you should be able to accept they're fueled by massive quantities organic matter.
4. Arrival says "no." It was not meant to be related to the "how" of the reaper invasion. It was for the "why."
5. Colonies are dissapearing. Someone killed shepard just before they started dissapearing. The reapers are still out there. We know they aren't done yet. Put two and two together.
6. Because they're mindless slaves. That was made pretty dang clear. Mordin talked about it for 30 seconds.
7. For the same reason they needed Saren and the geth- do the preparation work, bring down the enemy from the inside. It was stated outright that the collectors were repurposed into reaper builders after they failed to become one themselves. It's also pretty clear that they were supposed to be operating during the reaper invasion until soveriegn was killed, and that they're being repurposed as saboteurs as well.
8. What they're made from. Why they want the cycle. That's pretty important.
9. The goal was clarified. Of course it wasn't defined completely, but ME1 skipped over why the reapers want to attack the galaxy and destroy organics in the first place and nobody complained. The rest are obviously being saved for another day.

You could argue that they weren't exposited on enough, but I'm pretty sure we got all the basics here.

1. Immortal beings that simply "are" (according to Sovereign) who need organics (humans only in this case) doesn't make sense at all.

2. Why do immortals need reproduction?

3. WTF?

4. Sovereign says something different. Maybe they're both lying, who knows. Arrival also happens between ME2 and ME3. It isn't a real part of ME2.

5. Depending on Shep's background, your Shep might be the only survivor of a slave raid. Colonies dissapearing isn't something new and it's definitely not related to the Reapers. In fact, it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, considering the Reaper's efforts to erase all traces of their existence. Colonies vanishing is a good way to draw attention. You don't want that

6. Who made them "mindless"? And why? Slaves are always used to do the dirty work. Why do the Reapers need them?

7. The Collectors are Reaper builders now? They've done a poor job doing nothing for 50k years before starting to build one. Sovereign's failure was expected by the Reapers?

8. I've no idea where you got that idea.

9. Wiping out all life every now and then isn't a goal. That's sadistic, but that's all we know. Everything you've come up with is imaginary.

1.Like you know the origins of the reapers are.
2. Who ever said they are doing it to reproduce only.....As stated before....They want to up lift us by making use reapers.
3.......I agree....WTF? They are not using people as fuel.
4.Arrival can happen anytime after horizon. Doing the mission pre or post Arrival have different results. It make one thing clear.The reaper in the base was not going to be use to invade earth or anyone. It would not be done untill after the reaper invade.
5.The problem is not they just disappearing...It how they are disappearing.  No signs of struggle. No signs of conflict. No way to trace the group that may of attack....Regular slavers don't have anything that can do that in mass.
6.Well, the reapers are in dark space....And they need to make a move to start invading....so they use indoctrinating devices to do that....Why ask this if this has been covered in ME1?
7.It clear in the story they make reapers. Also, how long has humanity been in space? And what about the plane sovereign was going to do?
8.Know how to build one let you be able to learn a reapers weak point...
9. We don't know their reason for doing what they do. To them they make not see it as wiping out life...Just making it better. Remember, they ether re-purpose or turn that life into a reaper.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[Shepard the Leper]

iakus wrote...

No particular disagreement there.  I wish we'd been given a more concrete clue (not answer) on how to deal with the fleet rather than the rather bizzare "they wanna make babies with us" motivation.  Would have at least given a sense of accomplishing something in the grand scheme

Though I am willing to tkae a wait and see attitude towards the whole reproduction thing.  Maybe something will come of it..  

I guess the only "understanding" that's really important is "how do we kill them?" 

Indeed. I'd hoped ME2 was about gathering intel about how to fight a Reaper with the chance of beating it. The Reaper- aka main-plot of ME1 is about discovering the Reaper threat, ME2 should have been about gathering info which Shepard can use to battle the Reapers when (s)he has rallied all races in ME3.

[Shepard the Leper]

I appreciate all the attempts to answer questions about the Reapers, but they're all speculative. There's nothing solid in ME1 and 2 about what Reapers are.

To me it's clear they are not ships, nor machines with different parts. Those are just tools they can use. The thing that makes us human is our brain. Our body is there to support our brain. Cutting off arms or legs doesn't change who or what we are, it only severely limits what we can do (physically). An AI system is basically something similar. It's the software that defines the AI, not the hardware. Disabling a number of CPU units doesn't "kill" an AI, it only limits what it can do (like with human body parts).

Reproduction is ridiculous for an " immortal species". Reproduction is needed to ensure the survival of mortal beings. The only reason for the Reapers to "reproduce" is to replenish their losses. Another (speculative) reason might be to strengthen their species. Acquiring new genetic material to boost their own "genetic code" could be worthwhile - assuming they are a hybrid of organic and AI "technology".

But we know nothing thus far. Shepard has nothing (s)he can use to develop a strategy to fight the Reapers to give the galaxy a fighting chance. We do know ME combat revolves around a squad of three individuals fighting on foot. Such a squad cannot beat a two mile long hyper-advanced spaceship (let alone an entire fleet of em); if those ships are only tools, Shepard could try to board a Reaper vessel and search for the Reaper inside (favors the ME combat system). I hope it's something like that instead of the anti-climax of ME2.

[Arkitekt]

StL, I think it's far from being speculative to make the basic inductions and declare the Reapers as post-singularity machines. ME2's plot is a clear indication that this is what is going on (the human reaper being "fed" of "human essence" (seems like a shampoo ad), Harby's dialogue about "ascending" humans through their death, Soverreign's speech about being composed of entire civilizations each one, etc.,etc. - I got the post-singularity idea already in ME1, ME2 just confirmed it blatantly). Reproduction would be ridiculous for an immortal species, but that's just the thing with all infinites: they turn every single thing ridiculous.

I've told you already that this "immortal" adjective should be read comparatively. Even the Reapers can obviously die (at least two by now), and the universe will not last forever. They also do not know what else lies in the universe. Perhaps it is a good idea to strenghten themselves over the eons.

The fact that we don't know why they reproduce doesn't make the idea, then, "ridiculous". It just makes it a mystery. There are multiple reasons we can imagine why it would be a good idea, we just don't know which one of those is correct.

Modifié par Arkitekt, 25 septembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

2 dead reapers in 2 games should tell you why they want to 'reproduce'. They need to replenish their numbers.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I absolutely agree here.  The loyalty missions felt more like 2 hour movies crammed into the story.  Great in their own right, but lacking in connection to anything else that happened in the game.  Even other "movies"

A more recent example of companion missions "done right" is DA2 (yes, shocking)  The companion missions, at various times would actually connect with the narrative.  

Hmm, I suppose that's one interpretation of my quote.

But my primary point was regarding the difference between games and films as a medium, not between games themselves. The Star Wars films are great, but I'm always aware of this "wall" which exists, separating me from the events happening on screen. Games like KotOR, where I'm an active participant, makes me more involved in the experience. In this sense, my overall enjoyment of the KotOR storyline was greater than the Star War trilogy's, due to presentation.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone had mentioned Samara's LM... the comment was made that Samara had been hunting Morinth for centuries, why couldn't she wait a bit longer?

Shep can ask about this, in a way, and Samara specifically states that she knows where Morinth is "right now", and that if she waits, it might be a long time before she finds her again.

Well, that and, you know, she could die on the mission.  Kinda hard to catch someone when you're no longer alive.

That was kinda my point. 

What stretches things somewhat is that all 12 of the squadies have something left undone in their lives that could distract them so much it gets them killed...

It's more about getting the trust of the group so they work together better more than getting the person less distracted to be able to do their job. Remember, an unloyal Miranda can get the group through the first and second door without getting herself or anyone killed. It 's about the group working together. It varied from person to person whether what is destracting them or unloyal get them or other people killed over it....outside of biotics that is.

Yes, we get that.  We all understand that.  The issue of their focus or loyalty isn't the bone of contention. 

It's that all 12 possible team members have an issue that comes up in the six months of their lives they spend with Shep on this job, that all 12 need Shep's help to solve it, and that all 12 are more likely to die if Shep doesn't help them. 

When you know you maybe dieing and you have time to preper for it, you try to get some closer to your lifes issuse. Most came up at that time while others were carried with them.

Thane wanted to do right with his son but had to do it earlier because his son was about tobecome an assasin.
Samara wants to finish the with the very thing she bacame a Jusicar for.
Jack wanted some closer and to understand why thing happen they way they did in her life.
Jacob's father issuse were pushes up because of Miranda and he would never look on his own if Miranda did not push a little.
Tali's trial happens during the mission.
Zaeed and Kasumi loyalty mission was the reason they signed up.
The reason you meet Legion is  because of the very thing you do on the his loyalty mission.
Mordin always been a teacher at heart and always conserned for his students, the thing that came up during the mission.
Grunt loyalty mission made him more focus and it came up during the mission.(And he even tells you he can wait.)
Garrus is so filled with regreat that he can't think on anything else.
And Miranda has monstorious father issues....Crazy father issus. And the dealing with her sister came up during the Mission.

.........
Point is alot of the mission are just by coincidence.
And it does not matter, you need to gain loyalty, doing the missions help. You can even decline the missions.

It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

[Shepard the Leper]

The best comparison I can think of are Vampires. They are immortal but can be killed. They don't reproduce through sexual intercourse but "bite" potentials to turn them into one of their own. It's beyond me why entire galaxies have to be reduced to pulp to create a new Reaper. Non-organics don't need protein to fuel their system or to grow. The Terminator hints towards organic matter becoming metallic alloys - that doesn't make sense at all.

I'm pretty sure Shep killed Sovereign. The thing that leaves the Collector general at the end of ME2 might have survived the blast. I dunno. The game doesn't show the thing "dying". It simply states its pawn has failed its tasks and it leaves (choosing to save the Collector base triggers an explosion to wipe out all organic life on the station, that shouldn't kill a Reaper). It's one of the most interesting scenes of ME2 imho.

The Sovereign encounter on Virmire, the end of Arrival, and the thing controlling the Collector general show a "Reaper" in the form of a projection, hologram, ghost, spirit or whatever. Not a creature with different body-parts like the Terminator or a massive spaceship. I could understand the concept of machines who are interested in organic characteristics like hope, revenge, sacrifice, love, determination etc. Machines don't have those emotion which can be equally good or bad for survival. But why do they need millions (or more) humans (or other organic lifeforms)?

I hope that ME stays away from Matrix-nonsense, where machines use humans for energy whereas a couple nuclear powerplants would have solved their energy issue permanently.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone had mentioned Samara's LM... the comment was made that Samara had been hunting Morinth for centuries, why couldn't she wait a bit longer?

Shep can ask about this, in a way, and Samara specifically states that she knows where Morinth is "right now", and that if she waits, it might be a long time before she finds her again.

Well, that and, you know, she could die on the mission.  Kinda hard to catch someone when you're no longer alive.

That was kinda my point. 

What stretches things somewhat is that all 12 of the squadies have something left undone in their lives that could distract them so much it gets them killed...

It's more about getting the trust of the group so they work together better more than getting the person less distracted to be able to do their job. Remember, an unloyal Miranda can get the group through the first and second door without getting herself or anyone killed. It 's about the group working together. It varied from person to person whether what is destracting them or unloyal get them or other people killed over it....outside of biotics that is.

Yes, we get that.  We all understand that.  The issue of their focus or loyalty isn't the bone of contention. 

It's that all 12 possible team members have an issue that comes up in the six months of their lives they spend with Shep on this job, that all 12 need Shep's help to solve it, and that all 12 are more likely to die if Shep doesn't help them. 

When you know you maybe dieing and you have time to preper for it, you try to get some closer to your lifes issuse. Most came up at that time while others were carried with them.

Thane wanted to do right with his son but had to do it earlier because his son was about tobecome an assasin.
Samara wants to finish the with the very thing she bacame a Jusicar for.
Jack wanted some closer and to understand why thing happen they way they did in her life.
Jacob's father issuse were pushes up because of Miranda and he would never look on his own if Miranda did not push a little.
Tali's trial happens during the mission.
Zaeed and Kasumi loyalty mission was the reason they signed up.
The reason you meet Legion is  because of the very thing you do on the his loyalty mission.
Mordin always been a teacher at heart and always conserned for his students, the thing that came up during the mission.
Grunt loyalty mission made him more focus and it came up during the mission.(And he even tells you he can wait.)
Garrus is so filled with regreat that he can't think on anything else.
And Miranda has monstorious father issues....Crazy father issus. And the dealing with her sister came up during the Mission.

.........
Point is alot of the mission are just by coincidence.
And it does not matter, you need to gain loyalty, doing the missions help. You can even decline the missions.

It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

[dreman9999]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The best comparison I can think of are Vampires. They are immortal but can be killed. They don't reproduce through sexual intercourse but "bite" potentials to turn them into one of their own. It's beyond me why entire galaxies have to be reduced to pulp to create a new Reaper. Non-organics don't need protein to fuel their system or to grow. The Terminator hints towards organic matter becoming metallic alloys - that doesn't make sense at all.

I'm pretty sure Shep killed Sovereign. The thing that leaves the Collector general at the end of ME2 might have survived the blast. I dunno. The game doesn't show the thing "dying". It simply states its pawn has failed its tasks and it leaves (choosing to save the Collector base triggers an explosion to wipe out all organic life on the station, that shouldn't kill a Reaper). It's one of the most interesting scenes of ME2 imho.

The Sovereign encounter on Virmire, the end of Arrival, and the thing controlling the Collector general show a "Reaper" in the form of a projection, hologram, ghost, spirit or whatever. Not a creature with different body-parts like the Terminator or a massive spaceship. I could understand the concept of machines who are interested in organic characteristics like hope, revenge, sacrifice, love, determination etc. Machines don't have those emotion which can be equally good or bad for survival. But why do they need millions (or more) humans (or other organic lifeforms)?

I hope that ME stays away from Matrix-nonsense, where machines use humans for energy whereas a couple nuclear powerplants would have solved their energy issue permanently.

That thing was a reaper named harbinger on the collector base.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

iakus wrote...

No particular disagreement there.  I wish we'd been given a more concrete clue (not answer) on how to deal with the fleet rather than the rather bizzare "they wanna make babies with us" motivation.  Would have at least given a sense of accomplishing something in the grand scheme

Though I am willing to tkae a wait and see attitude towards the whole reproduction thing.  Maybe something will come of it..  

I guess the only "understanding" that's really important is "how do we kill them?" 

Indeed. I'd hoped ME2 was about gathering intel about how to fight a Reaper with the chance of beating it. The Reaper- aka main-plot of ME1 is about discovering the Reaper threat, ME2 should have been about gathering info which Shepard can use to battle the Reapers when (s)he has rallied all races in ME3.

That would have been interesting. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing. 

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

[Shepard the Leper]

dreman9999 wrote...

That thing was a reaper named harbinger on the collector base.

Which would mean Reapers don't take physical form; they merely control beings or machines.

"Was" isn't right though. There's nothing to assume it's death. Shepard only killed the creature it controlled.

[Someone With Mass]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing.

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

ME1 had massive coincidences too.

For example: Tali. She just happened to stumble across that geth patrol and then somehow made it to the Citadel with enough evidence for Shepard to bring Saren in.

Or, the best part, Shepard's contact with the beacon on Eden Prime. It could've might as well been Ashley who was exposed to it if Shepard wasn't fast enough or didn't notice it in time.

If those aren't massive coincidences, I don't know what is.

[Almostfaceman]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing. 

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

Oh please, all the Bioware games rely on coincidence. Your character always arrives at the nick of time, at the right time, at the time needed. They make fun of that constantly. Ever play Baldur's Gate 2? The truth of the matter is the game universe is on hold until the protaganist arrives. Is Major Kyle out visiting his aunt when you arrive? Nope. Is the consort busy enlightening another client when you knock on the door? Nope. Is Garrus done talking with his boss and moving on to the med clinic when you arrive at the Citadel Tower for the first time? Nope. Do you always arrive at the hearings just at the same time no matter how much you've piddled about looking around the citadel and doing side quests? Yup.

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ME1 had massive coincidences too.

For example: Tali. She just happened to stumble across that geth patrol and then somehow made it to the Citadel with enough evidence for Shepard to bring Saren in.

Or, the best part, Shepard's contact with the beacon on Eden Prime. It could've might as well been Ashley who was exposed to it if Shepard wasn't fast enough or didn't notice it in time.

If those aren't massive coincidences, I don't know what is.

Actually, if you want to talk Eden Prime, how about the fact that you arrived while Saren was still there and hadn't blown up the colony yet.  And of course, this applies to all the other worlds as well. No matter when you choose to go, you always arrive before the bad guys are finished: Liara is eternally not captured, Benezia is eternally interrogating the queen, the geth are eternally attacking Zhu's Hope instead of killing the thorian, etc.  Oh, and you always arrive at Ilos right before Saren goes through that door, and arrive in the Council Chamber right before he can take control of the Citadel.

Modifié par didymos1120, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.