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[The Interloper]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

I appreciate all the attempts to answer questions about the Reapers, but they're all speculative. There's nothing solid in ME1 and 2 about what Reapers are.

Kind of the point. We have enough hints to give us context, but nothing solid. The reapers lose their allure if the mystery around them is dispelled so early. Frankly, the amount of blatant exposition in ME1 kind of annoyed me.

I for one am confident there are revelations in store for ME3. The holes in reaper lore were obviously left on purpose.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing. The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

I've seen stories wherin the point was the whole thing wouldn't have happened if it weren't for a string of coincidences. That's a blanket statement.

Someone With Mass wrote...

ME1 had massive coincidences too.

For example: Tali. She just happened to stumble across that geth patrol and then somehow made it to the Citadel with enough evidence for Shepard to bring Saren in.

And she somehow found the audio files in the geth's entire memeory unit of a conversation the geth just happened to have overheard that just so happened to be expositing on Saren and Benezia's basic goals and she knew who Saren was. Come to think of it, that whole sequence was dumb. Wrex, Tali, and Fist are acting like retards and everyone on the street seems to know there's a quarian being sheltered by Fist who has data implicating a spectre whose being investigated. Not like anyone cares, because it happens in ME1 and is therefore A-okay.

Part of "suspension of disbelief" carries over to accepting coincidences that happen in the game world. 12 loyalty missions coming up at once is a bit much, I grant, but the basic principle is all over many stories, including most of BW's as people have said. Besides, you're not forced to do any or all of them.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Interloper wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

That some coincidences are necessity by the reality that it's a video game -- the Geth don't finish off Zhu's Hope while you're pulling Liara out of that digsite on Therum, and are always launching another attack just as you arrive. 

While some coincidences are just sloppy writing. 

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Hmm, I suppose that's one interpretation of my quote.

But my primary point was regarding the difference between games and films as a medium, not between games themselves. The Star Wars films are great, but I'm always aware of this "wall" which exists, separating me from the events happening on screen. Games like KotOR, where I'm an active participant, makes me more involved in the experience. In this sense, my overall enjoyment of the KotOR storyline was greater than the Star War trilogy's, due to presentation.

I may have misinterpreted your analogy then 

Because I felt that each loyalty mission was like a screen in a multiplex.  Each movie standing on its own, unrelated to the others.  No movie advances the plot of any of the others.  Who you take with you is largely irrelevant to the story (save the character the story is about of course)  Even how it ends is prettty much irrelevant.  Whatever choices you make, as long as you make it to the end, ten times out of twelve there is no way to fial.

The KOTOR comparison I think is good.  One reason why I like Bioware games so much is that it gets me involved in a story more than it gets me involved in a game.  These loyalty missions while they're interesting stories, do not have an obvious connection to what's going on in Shepard's story, save as plot armor for the characters.  That was my point.  I'm not watching one movie with many plot threads.  I'm watching a dozen unrealated films, save the same actor stars in all of them.

[onelifecrisis]

iakus wrote...

I felt that each loyalty mission was like a screen in a multiplex.

Heh, that's a neat way of putting it. 

[Kaphraxus]

I would like to put forth a hypothesis of mine, just an idea. When you talk to legion about why he calls sovereign nazara he says it is because that is what the programs inside the reaper call themselves. Now I was thinking, we know that reapers create more of themselves by melting down the members of a race and then using it to fill a shell, a la Arnold in the collector base. What if all the programs inside of sovereign were the minds of the race that had been used to create him and that "Nazara" was what that race called themselves. Just an idea.

[Someone With Mass]

I honestly never cared that much about the Collectors or the Reapers.

I'm far more interested in the characters and how their progression is made. Yes, the Reapers are threatening and all, but they lack the same personal touch the squadmates have. They're faceless, so to speak.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing. 

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

I'm sorry.....So  Tali having the geth info is not a coincidence, nor Eden prime just happen to have a prothean info relay? Nor it just happen to be that liara's mother is working with Saran or they just happen to find a rachni egg and Feron colony just happen to be on the thorium site?

As I said before, a story is a mix of controled and uncontroled events. That mean somethings are calculated to happen and some things are by coincidence....Like Samara's hunt for her daughter being a calculated event and Tali's trial been a coincidence. That how life is.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

That some coincidences are necessity by the reality that it's a video game -- the Geth don't finish off Zhu's Hope while you're pulling Liara out of that digsite on Therum, and are always launching another attack just as you arrive. 

While some coincidences are just sloppy writing. 

No, that coincidence is the same.  It just happens to happen as you arrive. On Zhu's hope, you arrive at the last push that would of killed off the colonist. It just they way stories are written. The only time it changes due to time is with Liara's rescue and she just turns crazy, no real difference to the mission.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Because I felt that each loyalty mission was like a screen in a multiplex.  Each movie standing on its own, unrelated to the others.  No movie advances the plot of any of the others.  Who you take with you is largely irrelevant to the story (save the character the story is about of course)  Even how it ends is prettty much irrelevant.  Whatever choices you make, as long as you make it to the end, ten times out of twelve there is no way to fial.

How should a character mission be related to any other? I personally have never asked for this in other Bioware games, yet that does not depreciate their value. In some cases, (Legion, Mordin, Tali,) they also had implications which could affect the overarching plot line. But "Finding Dustil" is completely unrelated to KotOR's plotline, much like Sten's Sword is irrelevant to the Origin's plotline. With Loyalty Missions, Bioware found a clever way to create more in-depth character missions, while finding a way to potentially impact that character's fate. I thought the presentation of the LMs were spectacular, doing a much better job of building the connection between me and the characters.

The KOTOR comparison I think is good.  One reason why I like Bioware games so much is that it gets me involved in a story more than it gets me involved in a game.  These loyalty missions while they're interesting stories, do not have an obvious connection to what's going on in Shepard's story, save as plot armor for the characters.  That was my point.  I'm not watching one movie with many plot threads.  I'm watching a dozen unrealated films, save the same actor stars in all of them.

It's similar to a TV show, which is one reason (amongst many) I applaud Mass Effect 2 over other Bioware efforts, more recently DA:O and ME. The episodic structure provided a breath of fresh air. Thane's loyalty mission is about Thane, Shepard is merely the window through which we view the experience, and it's a great window. You'll even find this approach in shows like Firefly or Avatar: the Last Airbender, where a particular episode focuses on one character, at the expense of others, which serves to flesh them out.

I wish Mass Effect had put half the thought into its character missions which ME2 did. Unfortunately, Ashley couldn't offer me a better backstory than "the military hates me".

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's the massive coincidence of random things that makes it so questionable. 

And that's how stories are..mixture of controlled and uncontrolled events. Heck, that's how life is. Example, You want to save up for a car but something breaks in your house and you have to delay saving to pay for it....

If that much of your story relies on coincidence, you need to go back and rewrite the damn thing. 

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense.

I'm sorry.....So  Tali having the geth info is not a coincidence, nor Eden prime just happen to have a prothean info relay? Nor it just happen to be that liara's mother is working with Saran or they just happen to find a rachni egg and Feron colony just happen to be on the thorium site?

As I said before, a story is a mix of controled and uncontroled events. That mean somethings are calculated to happen and some things are by coincidence....Like Samara's hunt for her daughter being a calculated event and Tali's trial been a coincidence. That how life is.

(Feron colony?  Thorium?  Somethings?  Prothean relay?)  

Yeah, I didn't expect you to get it.   Oh well.

You go get Liara because her mother is working with Saren, that's not really coincidence.

If the Thorian had been somewhere else, the Geth would have been somewhere else, the tip about Geth acticity would have been somewhere else, and you'd have gone there instead of Feros, that's not really a coincidence. 

If the Prothean beacon had been discovered elsewhere, the Normandy and Saren would both have headed there instead of to Eden Prime, that's not really coincidence.  If no Beacon had been found in that timeframe, then the story has to take a different course. 

Benezia specifically went to Noveria because Binary Helix had discovered the Rachni egg, it's not as if she stumbled on it there, and Shep only going to Noveria because that's where Benezia was last seen.  The only coincidence there is that the derelict Rachni ship had been found sometime in years just prior to ME1's events. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

That some coincidences are necessity by the reality that it's a video game -- the Geth don't finish off Zhu's Hope while you're pulling Liara out of that digsite on Therum, and are always launching another attack just as you arrive. 

While some coincidences are just sloppy writing. 

No, that coincidence is the same.  It just happens to happen as you arrive. On Zhu's hope, you arrive at the last push that would of killed off the colonist. It just they way stories are written. The only time it changes due to time is with Liara's rescue and she just turns crazy, no real difference to the mission.

If you're writing a book or movie, you can arrange events so that it makes sense that your protagonists arrive at the correct time for your story to take place as you wish, without strange bends in time, strange coincidences, etc.

If you're writing a game like ME, you have to leave room for the player to do things in different orders.  Can you imagine how frustrating and unenjoyable ME would be if Zhu's Hope was wiped out, or the Rachni had already wiped out Noveria completely, or Liara had starved to death, every time, depending on which order you did the missions in? 

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If you're writing a book or movie, you can arrange events so that it makes sense that your protagonists arrive at the correct time for your story to take place as you wish, without strange bends in time, strange coincidences, etc.

If you're writing a game like ME, you have to leave room for the player to do things in different orders.  Can you imagine how frustrating and unenjoyable ME would be if Zhu's Hope was wiped out, or the Rachni had already wiped out Noveria completely, or Liara had starved to death, every time, depending on which order you did the missions in? 

The only game I can think of which even comes remotely close to following this is Alpha Protocol, and (imo) that was too flawed for my tastes.

It's going to be impossible to get rid of most coincidences in storylines. Ex: Shepard reaching Saren in the Council chambers just before he is able to let the Reapers through. However, we typically excuse them in exchange for an enjoyable experience.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because I felt that each loyalty mission was like a screen in a multiplex.  Each movie standing on its own, unrelated to the others.  No movie advances the plot of any of the others.  Who you take with you is largely irrelevant to the story (save the character the story is about of course)  Even how it ends is prettty much irrelevant.  Whatever choices you make, as long as you make it to the end, ten times out of twelve there is no way to fial.

How should a character mission be related to any other? I personally have never asked for this in other Bioware games, yet that does not depreciate their value. In some cases, (Legion, Mordin, Tali,) they also had implications which could affect the overarching plot line. But "Finding Dustil" is completely unrelated to KotOR's plotline, much like Sten's Sword is irrelevant to the Origin's plotline. With Loyalty Missions, Bioware found a clever way to create more in-depth character missions, while finding a way to potentially impact that character's fate. I thought the presentation of the LMs were spectacular, doing a much better job of building the connection between me and the characters.

Character missions generally dont' have anything to do with the plot. the difference is that you can ignore all DA character missions and the main plot would still be good. ME2 character missions are it's best part. The bare plot is poor in comparison.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Interloper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Interloper wrote...
3-My point is that even though everyone agrees ME2 had interesting characters, some say it's all for naught if it doesn't have a perfect story. I'm not saying that the plot isn't a problem, but the stance seems to be among some that since the characters are not fully integrated into the plot their excellence is completely pointless. Erm...huh?

1. For the plot? Yes, they are.
Their "excellence" is disconnected with the main plot. I though that was the point.

4-Smudboy does not voice "opinions." He voices so-called "facts." Which is the problem. If he hates the game, fine. But don't say that from the pedestal of universal truth. Which is what he does.

2. And if I were to think that ME2 being badly written is a undenaible fact and universal truth, what then?

1.But they're not disconnected from the overall story, the overall experience. The tie to the immediate goal (collectors) is loose, yes, but the connection is still there and last time I checked, episodic storylines tended to work that way.

The reasoning seems to be not heavily directly relevant to main plot=doesn't count=worthless.

Yet it can't save the main plot by htat very nature. No matter how good the side-stories are, they cannot help in that regard.

2. You try and prove it. Which Smudboy did. And failed. And continued to insist on pure objectivism.

I don't have to prove anything to you. I already know it's a fact, and weather you will accept it or not is not my concern.

3. What, you're willing to suspend disbelief about robot gods, but not their use of organic matter as fuel/blood?Everything else is fine but that last part is just too much of a stretch for you? Why? Or do you think the reapers in general are stupid too? In which case what are you doing here?

What robot gods? Reapers are just machines. Use of organic matter is jsut stupid - inefficent, unnecessary, overly complicated.
And why do you assume that if I accept X I must accept Y? By what logic are you connectign X and Y?

5. I am not. Shepard knows (from the visions, I think) and has stated in the end of ME1 that he knows the reapers are still out there and aren't finished yet. TIM agrees. The colony abductions are a disturbing unexplained pheneomena. Plus there was the assassination, which ensured shepard was dead while the attacks were happening. As presumably nothing else suspicious was going on, the colony attacks are object of interest #1. The logic plays out on screen. Is it ironclad? No, but investigation and following-up is the whole point and that's the obvious thing to investigate. Frankly, the colony attacks are a far better lead on the enemy then "oh, we saw some geth by feros. Go check it out!"

Yes you are. There is no direct link between "colonies dissapearing" and "repaers".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

"undeniable fact" would be pretty stupid thing to say, since it's clear many people are able to deny that "fact", thus it's far from "undeniable". Of course, to reach this basic conclusion one would need a working brain.

People have a tendency to deny facts that don't suit them. for example - 6000 year old Earth? Global Warming?

Your disagreement is menaingless.

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Character missions generally dont' have anything to do with the plot. the difference is that you can ignore all DA character missions and the main plot would still be good. ME2 character missions are it's best part. The bare plot is poor in comparison.

I can't really disagree with this. Outside of Neverwinter Nights and (perhaps) Baldur's Gate 1, ME2 does feature Bioware's weakest plotline. I guess I've just been playing Bioware games for so long that the idea of finishing their games, without character dialogue/missions is unfathomable.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 septembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

"undeniable fact" would be pretty stupid thing to say, since it's clear many people are able to deny that "fact", thus it's far from "undeniable". Of course, to reach this basic conclusion one would need a working brain.

People have a tendency to deny facts that don't suit them. for example - 6000 year old Earth? Global Warming?

Your disagreement is menaingless.

Too bad you didn't leave in enough context for anyone else to make their own judgement about your claim and his. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

I want to play this game:

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

How should a character mission be related to any other? I personally have never asked for this in other Bioware games, yet that does not depreciate their value. In some cases, (Legion, Mordin, Tali,) they also had implications which could affect the overarching plot line. But "Finding Dustil" is completely unrelated to KotOR's plotline, much like Sten's Sword is irrelevant to the Origin's plotline. With Loyalty Missions, Bioware found a clever way to create more in-depth character missions, while finding a way to potentially impact that character's fate. I thought the presentation of the LMs were spectacular, doing a much better job of building the connection between me and the characters.

To each other?  Probably not much.  But as I said earlier, thery could have been tied more closely to Shepard and his mission.

They also could have tied more into the concept of a squad, with squadmates making comments on the situation in the focus missions.  Not just Jack's response to the Eclipse merc commenting on Miranda's outfit or Tali taking umbrage to the "quarian with a tummyache" line.  But actually contributing their $0.02 into a decision.  Like Anders "You hypocrite!  You really are just jealous!", Isabela's "bend her over a basin" comment.  Fenris' "Because you are a monster" line.  If nothing else, it would add to replayability if different squadmates had different thoughts on letting Sidonis live, what to do about the genophage data, or what to tell the Admiralty board.

It's similar to a TV show, which is one reason (amongst many) I applaud Mass Effect 2 over other Bioware efforts, more recently DA:O and ME. The episodic structure provided a breath of fresh air. Thane's loyalty mission is about Thane, Shepard is merely the window through which we view the experience, and it's a great window. You'll even find this approach in shows like Firefly or Avatar: the Last Airbender, where a particular episode focuses on one character, at the expense of others, which serves to flesh them out.

I wish Mass Effect had put half the thought into its character missions which ME2 did. Unfortunately, Ashley couldn't offer me a better backstory than "the military hates me".

And here I thought this was supposed to be "Shepard's story", and about preparing for a mission against the Collectors   Perhaps I wouldn't have felt so cheated by the game if they had been more honest about what the game was about.  

Because like I said, I don't particularly object to having these missions that focus on the characters, but they do so to the exclusion of the Collector story.  Serialized dramas may focus on a given character, but even then such an episode may advance the storyline.  If the Suicide Mission was teh "season finale" then the "season" should have been building up to that.  Not just devote four episodes towards advancing the plot and leaving the rest of the season as standalones. 

And  however well done they are, these missions have no greater focus on the main story than any other side misson.  Helping out Thane had no greater impact on the story than helping Leliana against Marjorlaine.  In fact, that one may impact the game more, since Leliana's personality can be altered depending on your actions there  

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Character missions generally dont' have anything to do with the plot. the difference is that you can ignore all DA character missions and the main plot would still be good. ME2 character missions are it's best part. The bare plot is poor in comparison.

I can't really disagree with this. Outside of Neverwinter Nights and (perhaps) Baldur's Gate 1, ME2 does feature Bioware's weakest plotline. I guess I've just been playing Bioware games for so long that the idea of finishing their games, without character dialogue/missions is unfathomable.

I'm inclined to agree.  I'd do the missions anyway.  But I wna to do them alongside the main story, not instead of.

[Arkitekt]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The Sovereign encounter on Virmire, the end of Arrival, and the thing controlling the Collector general show a "Reaper" in the form of a projection, hologram, ghost, spirit or whatever. Not a creature with different body-parts like the Terminator or a massive spaceship. I could understand the concept of machines who are interested in organic characteristics like hope, revenge, sacrifice, love, determination etc. Machines don't have those emotion which can be equally good or bad for survival. But why do they need millions (or more) humans (or other organic lifeforms)?

Read on the subjects of technological singularity and many sci fi notions of that sort. "Machines" is a simplistic word that may describe a too big category, ranging from printers to actual sentient life forms. We don't need to know exactly how or why the reapers need the organics (although some exposure of this is expectable in ME3), just that they do in order to build themselves. Each reaper is a civilization itself. I believe they are composed of the billions of organics that are stacked together, "processed", transmitted in a "goo" and injected into the final machine as one of the primary components of it.

I hope that ME stays away from Matrix-nonsense, where machines use humans for energy whereas a couple nuclear powerplants would have solved their energy issue permanently.

I really don't know how you could possibly confuse this with ME. We've been patiently trying to educate you otherwise, but you seem determined to not understand. I can only show you the way.

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

That some coincidences are necessity by the reality that it's a video game -- the Geth don't finish off Zhu's Hope while you're pulling Liara out of that digsite on Therum, and are always launching another attack just as you arrive. 

While some coincidences are just sloppy writing. 

Translation: every coincidence is bad writing except for the ones I arbitrarily pick and claim that it's a "gameplay" thing.

Puh lease. Coincidences is what most compelling stories are all about.

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

"undeniable fact" would be pretty stupid thing to say, since it's clear many people are able to deny that "fact", thus it's far from "undeniable". Of course, to reach this basic conclusion one would need a working brain.

People have a tendency to deny facts that don't suit them. for example - 6000 year old Earth? Global Warming?

Your disagreement is menaingless.

Not to me it aint. And since it is not to me, then your sentence is logically incorrect. You still fail badly at logic. And writing.

[Arkitekt]

iakus wrote...

And here I thought this was supposed to be "Shepard's story", and about preparing for a mission against the Collectors   Perhaps I wouldn't have felt so cheated by the game if they had been more honest about what the game was about.  

Because you can't figure that out for yourself, and if you aren't spoonfed by someone else what the hell a work of art is about, you won't understand it and you'll denigrate it for your... ahh... lack of focus.

Right. I still don't understand why is this anyone else's fault but yours.

Because like I said, I don't particularly object to having these missions that focus on the characters, but they do so to the exclusion of the Collector story.

Oh, choices, how life is hard in the first world, aint it? You want the cake and eat it too. And still dare to talk about realism...

Serialized dramas may focus on a given character, but even then such an episode may advance the storyline.  If the Suicide Mission was teh "season finale" then the "season" should have been building up to that.  Not just devote four episodes towards advancing the plot and leaving the rest of the season as standalones.

I think that's fair, but again that's not ME2. ME2 is about the universe at large that is alive while the reapers seem to be away. If the side missions had to do with the reapers and the crew mates, people would be whining about the "sheer coincidences" that the loyalty missions of these characters all had to do with the main plot "How convenient!". Killjoy would have an heart attack of it.

And  however well done they are, these missions have no greater focus on the main story than any other side misson.  Helping out Thane had no greater impact on the story than helping Leliana against Marjorlaine.

We still do not know his son's actions in ME3. Most of the things we choose in ME2 are still just setup. There's no point in criticizing ME2 for not delivering the payoff that is only supposed to happen in the next installment.

[Iakus]

Arkitekt wrote...

Because you can't figure that out for yourself, and if you aren't spoonfed by someone else what the hell a work of art is about, you won't understand it and you'll denigrate it for your... ahh... lack of focus.

Right. I still don't understand why is this anyone else's fault but yours.

Clearly I was misinterpreting things when I was told the game was about msising colonies and preparing a team for a suicide mission.  My bad.

Oh, choices, how life is hard in the first world, aint it? You want the cake and eat it too. And still dare to talk about realism...

Yeah I'm such a spoiled brat.  Daring to want character-centric missions and a strong central narrative.  Just like almsot any other Bioware product

I think that's fair, but again that's not ME2. ME2 is about the universe at large that is alive while the reapers seem to be away. If the side missions had to do with the reapers and the crew mates, people would be whining about the "sheer coincidences" that the loyalty missions of these characters all had to do with the main plot "How convenient!". Killjoy would have an heart attack of it.

The way I see it, we're not getting around coincidences here.  We can either have A) All these people Shepard recruited suddenly having "unfinished business" to take care of at the same time.  Or All these people encountering personal dilemmas while preparing for a fight against the Collectors.  I prefer the second as it at least allows some segue from the central story to the side stories and back again.

And Killjoy posted two entirely plausible scenerios regarding Jack's loyalty mission and why Shepard would have wanted to visit the Teltin facility anyway.

We still do not know his son's actions in ME3. Most of the things we choose in ME2 are still just setup. There's no point in criticizing ME2 for not delivering the payoff that is only supposed to happen in the next installment.

And there's ME2's problem, it's almost all setup.  ME1 set things up for later instalments too, but managed to have a self contained story at the same time.   Why could ME2 not have the same?

Modifié par iakus, 25 septembre 2011 - 10:21 .