6494 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How? Just how? How in the hell is this thread STILL here? I would have thought that by now Smudboy's analysis would have been forgotten; that by now people would have found better things to do with their time than talk about this guy's opinions.

[onelifecrisis]

The Interloper wrote...

I've never disagreed it could have been done better, but that's not the point. The argument championed by smudboy and others is not just that the plot has flaws, which I agree with, but that the plot has no purpose and there's no connection to anything. In short, that it's completely and utterly broken. And I don't think that's true at all. Tofu lean or not, the story was still there, it (mostly) made enough sense, it has context in the series story, and it serves a purpose within the actual game by linking all the seperate "TV" episodes that make up the meat of the game  together, which themselves serve a point within the story (explore the characters and different corners of the universe) and in the series (setting up the genophage cure issue for ME3, for instance). Of course it could have been executed more smoothly, but again, that's not the point. It was done well enough to work, and it shook up the standard, bread-and-butter quest story format of games like ME1 and DAO while doing so.

We can go on and on about how it could have been better, but at the end of the day anyone can be an armchair game designer. I for one think it was a good haul.

I get what you're saying there, and I think I could get onboard with it if ME2 were a standalone game/story, but it's not; it's a sequel.

As a standalone story, taking on the collectors to stop abductions would be okay (it would still have holes of course). But as the middle part of a trilogy in which we're supposed to be stopping the reapers, AND as a continuation of Shepard's story from ME1, I consider it an epic fail on both counts.

Can you appreciate the difference?

[dreman9999]

onelifecrisis wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

I've never disagreed it could have been done better, but that's not the point. The argument championed by smudboy and others is not just that the plot has flaws, which I agree with, but that the plot has no purpose and there's no connection to anything. In short, that it's completely and utterly broken. And I don't think that's true at all. Tofu lean or not, the story was still there, it (mostly) made enough sense, it has context in the series story, and it serves a purpose within the actual game by linking all the seperate "TV" episodes that make up the meat of the game  together, which themselves serve a point within the story (explore the characters and different corners of the universe) and in the series (setting up the genophage cure issue for ME3, for instance). Of course it could have been executed more smoothly, but again, that's not the point. It was done well enough to work, and it shook up the standard, bread-and-butter quest story format of games like ME1 and DAO while doing so.

We can go on and on about how it could have been better, but at the end of the day anyone can be an armchair game designer. I for one think it was a good haul.

I get what you're saying there, and I think I could get onboard with it if ME2 were a standalone game/story, but it's not; it's a sequel.

As a standalone story, taking on the collectors to stop abductions would be okay (it would still have holes of course). But as the middle part of a trilogy in which we're supposed to be stopping the reapers, AND as a continuation of Shepard's story from ME1, I consider it an epic fail on both counts.

Can you appreciate the difference?

You problem is that your looking at it backwards. Your not seeing that stopping the collectors is stopping the reapers.(More so, stopping the collectors is more of slowing the reapers down than stopping them.) Everyone that states that ME2 has nothing to do with the reapers forgets the fact they they fight a half finished one at the end of ME2.
Let me explain some more.....The reapers us agents to do thing they can't or get to in order to start and achieve their plans....We saw this with Seran in ME1. In ME2 we learn that they did the same thing with the rachni and the collectors are their agents. Now, we know they are coming and we know the collectors are agents of the reapers with advance tech given to them from the reapers, even building a reaper themselves under orders of the reapers....If we want to learn as much info about the reapers as possible....would it not make sense to attack the ones with the most info on them? And that happens to be the collectors...That would mean that facing and defeating the collector gets us info on the reapers anyway. So really, I don't see how it not involving the reapers at all fighting the collectors in ME2.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

"undeniable fact" would be pretty stupid thing to say, since it's clear many people are able to deny that "fact", thus it's far from "undeniable". Of course, to reach this basic conclusion one would need a working brain.

People have a tendency to deny facts that don't suit them. for example - 6000 year old Earth? Global Warming?

Your disagreement is menaingless.

Not to me it aint. And since it is not to me, then your sentence is logically incorrect. You still fail badly at logic. And writing.

You disagree, therefore it's not a fact? Well then, I disagree wiht your diagreement. Therefore, you disagreeing is not a fact! You're not disagreeing with me, because I'm denying it!

See the beauty of your messed up logic? Just because you CAN deny something (and people are capable of denying EVERYTHING if they so choose), doesn't mean that makes it invalid.
Who fails now?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Interloper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1. Yet it can't save the main plot by htat very nature. No matter how good the side-stories are, they cannot help in that regard.

2. I don't have to prove anything to you. I already know it's a fact, and weather you will accept it or not is not my concern.

3. What robot gods? Reapers are just machines. Use of organic matter is jsut stupid - inefficent, unnecessary, overly complicated. And why do you assume that if I accept X I must accept Y? By what logic are you connectign X and Y?

4. Yes you are. There is no direct link between "colonies dissapearing" and "repaers".

1. My point is that you're insisting on evaluating the main plot by itself when the whole game was clearly built on a decentralized principle from the ground up. Of course the main plot is going to come up short.

I evaluate the plot as a plot. Nothing more, nothing else.
You want me to skew the rating in ME2 favor, by rating in a completley illogical manner. Why would I do that?

2. Now you're not even trying. You don't have to prove anything because you're right, and you know you're right because....why? If it's really that obvious, you should be able to argue it. For someone insisting every detail in ME2 be explained, you don't seem to like explaining your own reasoning.

Because of the last 200 threads of this post with people explaining why. I have done plenty of explaning - if you care to read.
If you think ME2 is a writing masterpiece, then go ahead and prove that.

I'm as sure in the badness of ME2 writing as I'm sure in the law of gravity. Undeniable, but some peopel will defend hte badness to the end of time regardless.

3. The reapers live for millions of years, are composed of "whole nations" and have wiped out all life in the galaxy countless times and they're "just machines?" My logic is that once you accept that, the fact that tons of organic liquid are used in their "birth" should come easily. Kind of like once you accept there's the force, the fact that the emperor can shoot lightning bolts should come easy. It's called suspension of disbelief. The reapers are an integral part of the universe rules, and once you accept them you should also accept be goo, because creation process in no way breaks the universes rules for reasons I gave earlier. You might think the idea is wierd, but it's not a plot hole.

"Should"? There is no should. There is no reason to accept the good just because I accept the reapers. They are comepltely different issues.

What's "unnecessary" and "innefficient?" Are you talking about the goo itself, or the whole principle of the reapers having organic brains or whatever? If it's the former the issue is the definition of quibbling (paste would have made much more sense!) and if the latter....since when were the villians not allowed to have weaknesses?

Both. From any standpoint you want to look at it, goo is a weakness. Structural, practical, logistical, operational.
For a race of super-intelligent machines, such inefficency is mind-blowing. It's like skynet deploying terminators with nerf bats.
Reapers went down a few levels from ME1. They have become more of a comicly inept villain ( in no small part thanks to Harbie)

4. Okay, sure. There's no "direct link." Harbinger didn't call TIM and say "wur stelin yur coloneese lol." He didn't personaly go to the colonies and leave a reaper shaped inprint on the ground. Would that satisfy you?

There doesn't need to be a "direct link." There just needs to be enough information for TIM's guess that the reapers are involved to seem plausible. Arguing that there is no "direct link" does not disprove my point.

If you point was that Shep guessed it was reapers immediately, then it does. Dissapearance of humans is something worth investigating and it makes sense to do so, but immediately saying "It's the reapers!" doesn really.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Captain Crash wrote...

hmmm its been a year now and the points raised in smudboys vids are still being rigorously discussed!

Just going to put a small fraction of one the comments from smudboy that I saw there:

smudboy wrote...
I'd say Sovereign declaring humans nothing, and then having them completely intricate to their reproduction would be a retcon.

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? ARE YOU SERIOUS? OMG!

*runs around house laughing at this idiot*

Oh wait you might just have a different definition of character development.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry I can't help it. Bioware forums keep getting funnier.

Yeah...some people are giving this guy way too much credibility than he deserves.

And you have crediblity? You're not the person to talk.....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

So what? His inability to make friends on the netz doesn't detract from his general wrongbutsmugandboringdomness.

He's a curmudgeon. And like all curmudgeons. he's hated for it. Which probably only increases his own curmudgeonosity. Let's hope this short-circuited loop won't create a black hole of Nitpicking. Oh ****, it already has!

MEh. I like him better than like you. From where I'm standing you're the "curmudgeon"..whatever the hall that means.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And you have crediblity? You're not the person to talk.....

That's ironic, because you've lost every trace of it with your obnoxious spam of comments like: "LOL, you're wrong just because I say so:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:" 

I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And you have crediblity? You're not the person to talk.....

That's ironic, because you've lost every trace of it with your obnoxious spam of comments like: "LOL, you're wrong just because I say so:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:" 

I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I'm not sure you ever had credibility. I could call you trollface and it wouldnt' be far off.

Either way, so what if he was banned?  You're using that as some kind of proof of what? That's he's a bad person? Bann's are irrelevant and prove nothing other than he was banned.

Yeah, I've seen him insult poeple. But you know what? I've seen him insult people after a massive barrage of insutls aimed at him. His tolerance in that regard is a lot higher than mine (and yours). If it was me in his shoes, I would have  snapped a lot sooner. And by looking at these forums, I can reasonably say 90% of BSN would too.

And finally...tell me, are you innocent? Did you earn any hate?

[didymos1120]

The Interloper wrote...

 ME1 only had one, Wrex; Garrus got a short one and Tali's was worked into a preexisting one.

Garrus and Wrex's quests were equally developed: have conversation about something in their past.  Go to location they give you.  Beat bad guy at location.  Brief conversation while still at location (and Garrus' is longer. Plus, you also get to talk with the bad guy before killing him, unlike Wrex's).  Longer conversation about what it all means back on the Normandy.  Tali's was the only one that wasn't presented as a task you were doing specifically for her.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are story coincidences, and there are gameplay coincidences.

What's that supposed to mean?

That some coincidences are necessity by the reality that it's a video game -- the Geth don't finish off Zhu's Hope while you're pulling Liara out of that digsite on Therum, and are always launching another attack just as you arrive. 

While some coincidences are just sloppy writing. 

No, that coincidence is the same.  It just happens to happen as you arrive. On Zhu's hope, you arrive at the last push that would of killed off the colonist. It just they way stories are written. The only time it changes due to time is with Liara's rescue and she just turns crazy, no real difference to the mission.

If you're writing a book or movie, you can arrange events so that it makes sense that your protagonists arrive at the correct time for your story to take place as you wish, without strange bends in time, strange coincidences, etc.

If you're writing a game like ME, you have to leave room for the player to do things in different orders.  Can you imagine how frustrating and unenjoyable ME would be if Zhu's Hope was wiped out, or the Rachni had already wiped out Noveria completely, or Liara had starved to death, every time, depending on which order you did the missions in? 

And ME2 can't have this consideration?

I'm giving ME2 that consideration, that's why I brought up the difference between gameplay coincidences and lazy writing coincidences.

[Killjoy Cutter]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How? Just how? How in the hell is this thread STILL here? I would have thought that by now Smudboy's analysis would have been forgotten; that by now people would have found better things to do with their time than talk about this guy's opinions.

Just as has been explained to everyone one of you who posts a drive-by comment without looking at the thread, SMUGBOY AND HIS VIDEOS ARE NO LONGER THE PRIMARY OR EVEN SECONDARY TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.  If you bothered to read a page or two before posting, you'd know that.  But you don't.  You just felt like making a non-contributing, non-topical, utterly useless post. 

And in four or five pages, someone else will do the same damn moronic thing. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

If everyone else acted like they do now, then I find it impossible to be a "nice guy" in such an enviroment.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

If everyone else acted like they do now, then I find it impossible to be a "nice guy" in such an enviroment.

Take this however you want... but you are not part of the solution on that front.  Neither are more than half the other repeat posters on this thread... but you're the one making the observation about it.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How? Just how? How in the hell is this thread STILL here? I would have thought that by now Smudboy's analysis would have been forgotten; that by now people would have found better things to do with their time than talk about this guy's opinions.

Just as has been explained to everyone one of you who posts a drive-by comment without looking at the thread, SMUGBOY AND HIS VIDEOS ARE NO LONGER THE PRIMARY OR EVEN SECONDARY TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.  If you bothered to read a page or two before posting, you'd know that.  But you don't.  You just felt like making a non-contributing, non-topical, utterly useless post. 

And in four or five pages, someone else will do the same damn moronic thing. 

FIVE? Someone is being optimistic....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

If everyone else acted like they do now, then I find it impossible to be a "nice guy" in such an enviroment.

Take this however you want... but you are not part of the solution on that front.  Neither are more than half the other repeat posters on this thread... but you're the one making the observation about it.  

When tensions go high, insults start to flow. When insults flow, one can only take so much.
It's rather simple in principle.

How many insults or calls for your castration/death could you take before you'd start responding back harsher?
There's always a limit..for everyone.

If you want to cast blame, look at those who start the whole things. I'm far from a saint, I got a tounge and a half, but I rarely, if ever, start with the insults.

[Iakus]

The Interloper wrote...

1. That they've made character quests before is not important. It's numbers. Have they ever made so many? Has a previous game ever focused on them? And ME2 clearly does. You seem to be implying that ME2 has less content then Bioware's previous games, with a regular amount of sidequests but a substandard main plot, when that isn't the case. The resources that usually went to the main plot went to the sidequests, which is why we have 15 full length ones. ME1 only had one, Wrex; Garrus got a short one and Tali's was worked into a preexisting one. In DAO only Shales' quest was full length. I don't know about Baldurs gate and whatnot, but games back then tended to have more content anyway due to several factors, most of all the lack of voiced protagonists.

If such is the case, then Ii submit that the ME2 squad was too frakking big.  I don't deny lack of content so much as lack of story and progression.  At least compared to ME1.  Sure there's plenty of content, but that content doesn't build on anything.  It's all entirely seperate stories rather than a single "second volume"  It gives me the impression that ME2 is nothing more than killing time until the Reapers reach the galaxy.

2 &3. I've never disagreed it could have been done better, but that's not the point. The argument championed by smudboy and others is not just that the plot has flaws, which I agree with, but that the plot has no purpose and there's no connection to anything. In short, that it's completely and utterly broken. And I don't think that's true at all. Tofu lean or not, the story was still there, it (mostly) made enough sense, it has context in the series story, and it serves a purpose within the actual game by linking all the seperate "TV" episodes that make up the meat of the game  together, which themselves serve a point within the story (explore the characters and different corners of the universe) and in the series (setting up the genophage cure issue for ME3, for instance). Of course it could have been executed more smoothly, but again, that's not the point. It was done well enough to work, and it shook up the standard, bread-and-butter quest story format of games like ME1 and DAO while doing so.

Where you say "it could have been better" I say "these choices hurt the story"  I don't deny there will be connection in ME3, but I do say that the lack of connection within ME2 keeps it from being a whole story.  ME2's purpose is utterly dependant on ME3, a separate game.  

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...
If such is the case, then Ii submit that the ME2 squad was too frakking big. 

And the feeling of being crowded is heightened by the fact that you can only take two of them with you on any mission.  Why would it be so hard to up that to 3 and give us the option to set up tactics... like a certain other Bioware series? 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

If everyone else acted like they do now, then I find it impossible to be a "nice guy" in such an enviroment.

Take this however you want... but you are not part of the solution on that front.  Neither are more than half the other repeat posters on this thread... but you're the one making the observation about it.  

When tensions go high, insults start to flow. When insults flow, one can only take so much.
It's rather simple in principle.

How many insults or calls for your castration/death could you take before you'd start responding back harsher?
There's always a limit..for everyone.

If you want to cast blame, look at those who start the whole things. I'm far from a saint, I got a tounge and a half, but I rarely, if ever, start with the insults.

And I recall Smudboy starting out immediately with his dismissive, belittling, disdainful, "if you don't agree with me you're an uneducated, ignorant, mouthbreathing fanboy" approach.  

[Arkitekt]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Just as has been explained to everyone one of you who posts a drive-by comment without looking at the thread, SMUGBOY AND HIS VIDEOS ARE NO LONGER THE PRIMARY OR EVEN SECONDARY TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.  If you bothered to read a page or two before posting, you'd know that.  But you don't.  You just felt like making a non-contributing, non-topical, utterly useless post. 

And in four or five pages, someone else will do the same damn moronic thing. 

I beg to disagree - I've tried to maintain on topic, and for one I don't accept your authority in this thread to tell me what the topic of this discussion should be about. if that's your idea.

And the feeling of being crowded is heightened by the fact that you can only take two of them with you on any mission.  Why would it be so hard to up that to 3 and give us the option to set up tactics... like a certain other Bioware series?  

It most certainly has to do with hardware limitation. If we had the choice to have 3 squad mates, it would have been cooler, but then again, something else important might have had to give, or else you'd have pretty bad FPS performance.

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You disagree, therefore it's not a fact? Well then, I disagree wiht your diagreement. Therefore, you disagreeing is not a fact! You're not disagreeing with me, because I'm denying it!  

Ok, let's learn english - you said that my disagreement was "meaningless". Since it's not meaningless to me (at least), then the sentence is logically incorrect. And yeah I'm pulling your leg. I'm also 100% right.

See the beauty of your messed up logic? Just because you CAN deny something (and people are capable of denying EVERYTHING if they so choose), doesn't mean that makes it invalid.

There's nothing "invalid" by "itself". This is widely known in philosophy for more than two centuries. Read Kant or Nietzsche for some education. If it is "valid" for me, then it is valid - for me. It may be not to you. We may or not resolve the differences in a discussion, but to declare something "undeniable" or "invalid" or any other "objective" arrogant statement is just a sign of lack of wisdom.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arkitekt wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Just as has been explained to everyone one of you who posts a drive-by comment without looking at the thread, SMUGBOY AND HIS VIDEOS ARE NO LONGER THE PRIMARY OR EVEN SECONDARY TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.  If you bothered to read a page or two before posting, you'd know that.  But you don't.  You just felt like making a non-contributing, non-topical, utterly useless post. 

And in four or five pages, someone else will do the same damn moronic thing. 

I beg to disagree - I've tried to maintain on topic, and for one I don't accept your authority in this thread to tell me what the topic of this discussion should be about. if that's your idea.

Based solely on percentages of posts, the title of the thread now represents a fleeting percentage of the actual post content. 

[Arkitekt]

That is meaningless (ah!), since clearly the first topic of this discussion is how small Lord Soronnar's balls are.

[Sajuro]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just posted that because some people were so far up Smudboy's ass, they pretty much always said: "Oh, he's so innocent and didn't earn any of the hate at all, because he was such a nice guy before he got BANNED."

I remember what he was like when he was here.  He was in no way mistakable for a "nice guy".

If everyone else acted like they do now, then I find it impossible to be a "nice guy" in such an enviroment.

No, he wasn't a nice guy even compared to the other people on the forum and that was when Zulu and others were still on, Dean is really the only one left I think.