6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

@111987

If you don't want a reaper near you, why Would you want the collector base near you?

[Someone With Mass]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Believable reason for Cerberus to leave the dead Reaper where it was for the time being -- because they're the only ones who know where it is. Even when it would be better to do something else, TIM will always ere on the side of secrecy. He's plot-predictable like that.

The smart thing to do would be to haul the thing out and show it to everyone in the galaxy.  It would STUN me if TIM did anything of the sort. 

Not when you're trying to keep a low profile.

Well, a low profile by Cerberus standards, anyway..

[Nashiktal]

I was about to say mass, lol.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Believable reason for Cerberus to leave the dead Reaper where it was for the time being -- because they're the only ones who know where it is. Even when it would be better to do something else, TIM will always ere on the side of secrecy. He's plot-predictable like that.

The smart thing to do would be to haul the thing out and show it to everyone in the galaxy.  It would STUN me if TIM did anything of the sort. 

Not when you're trying to keep a low profile.

Well, a low profile by Cerberus standards, anyway..

And one of the problems with TIM / Cerberus is that they value that "low profile" over actually accomplishing their goals. 

[TuringPoint]

The secrecy of Cerberus isn't just for secrecy's sake, it is to avoid any and all accountability in the pursuit of TIM's goals.

Maybe it would be a good idea to publically announce the find, but there are other things for TIM to consider.

First, whatever he finds, he wants to keep for Cerberus/ Humanity. If that is his goal, it would not be smart to tell everyone about the dead Reaper.  It might mean less public approval for for this kind of mission, but the payoff is exclusive access for Cerberus to everything they find out about the Reaper and everything the Reaper leads them to, including the remains (exploded or not) of the collector base.

Second, opening it up for study by everyone in the galaxy exposes it to members of every race, with no limitations or checks on exposure to the indoctrination.  Even if it were believed to be dormant enough that indoctrination would be no issue, other people and organizations, even merc bands or pirates, might raid the ship for technology and strip it down if they knew about it.

Finally, with the council/alliance record of obtuse denial, showing pictures of the Reaper might not matter, and any announcement or stunt from Cerberus would be met with suspicion. 

It was all they could do to muster up qualified people who believed the Reapers/Collectors were a real threat on one ship to help Shep's mission.

Modifié par Alocormin, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[Nashiktal]

Publicly announcing it is one thing I can understand not doing... Not telling shep to begin with? Thats just stupid.

"Wasn't relevant?" Its a goddamn reaper. The thing we have been so fixated on defeating since the first game, something I would absolutely want to know about. I mean hell, maybe shep could give them some tips about indoctrination, I mean cerberus obviously doesn't know about that.

[TuringPoint]

TIM probably doesn't want Shepard to interrupt the mission of the scientists on the derelict reaper. I guess 'mentioning' it wouldn't hurt, assuming Shepard wouldn't be able to hunt down the information. Or try and put a stop to the mission.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

@111987

If you don't want a reaper near you, why Would you want the collector base near you?

They didn't drag the Collector Base to Cerberus's HQ did they?

Besides, Collector technology hasn't been shown to indoctrinate like Reaper tech. There are probably devices that can indoctrinate on the CB, but it isn't a giant indoctrination artifact like the Derelict Reaper.

[Nashiktal]

I don't know, shep seems pretty eager to listen and follow tim no matter what, I doubt he would have hunted it down.

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

@111987

If you don't want a reaper near you, why Would you want the collector base near you?

They didn't drag the Collector Base to Cerberus's HQ did they?

Besides, Collector technology hasn't been shown to indoctrinate like Reaper tech. There are probably devices that can indoctrinate on the CB, but it isn't a giant indoctrination artifact like the Derelict Reaper.

I said abandoned planet, not cerberus HQ. Though I would argue the collector base is now a new cerberus HQ. I concede your point that collector tech hasn't been shown to indoctrinate, but honestly we havn't seen people around it long enough to know or not, and if the collector base is reaper tech there is a good chance of indoctrination.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard is a mook. Mordin is a mook. Joker is a mook. The whole team is a bunch of mooks. What is worse than a mook? A mook with a secret agenda. TIM is a totally just horrid evil person. Why would anyone in their right mind hand the collector base to him? We know this for a fact about TIM because Martin Sheen said so, although not in those exact words. And come on, with a name like "The Illusive Man" who smokes and drinks, and acts more like "Cancer Man" from the X-Files? A show I'm sure Joker watches when at the right distance from earth to pick up the old broadcasts during down time.

For those who don't know: mook = dithpicable (Sylvester Cat's version of despicable) person.

And this thread is on page 241? OMG. Something this evil never dies.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

@111987

If you don't want a reaper near you, why Would you want the collector base near you?

They didn't drag the Collector Base to Cerberus's HQ did they?

Besides, Collector technology hasn't been shown to indoctrinate like Reaper tech. There are probably devices that can indoctrinate on the CB, but it isn't a giant indoctrination artifact like the Derelict Reaper.

I said abandoned planet, not cerberus HQ. Though I would argue the collector base is now a new cerberus HQ. I concede your point that collector tech hasn't been shown to indoctrinate, but honestly we havn't seen people around it long enough to know or not, and if the collector base is reaper tech there is a good chance of indoctrination.

Oh sorry, I missed where you said you would drag it to. Yeah I guess you could bring it to a planet. I'm not sure if Cerberus has a fleet large enough to drag the Derelict Reaper, and it's mass effect fields might prevent it anyways, but that would be reasonable. Perhaps they would have done that eventually anyways.

And yeah I definitely agree there's a chance for the Collector Base to indoctrinate. But since Cerberus is against Shepard regardless, it doesn't seem like the Collector Base plays a role in that.

[111987]

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

[DCarter]

I think TIM may of learned a lot more from the derelict reaper than he's let on.

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

That confirms what we already knew. 

[P38 ace]

this guy is very critical of everything, he does a really good job and really devels deep

But really overkill on picking apart everything, about every thing, little much

good job those

hay now i sound like Jack
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

That confirms what we already knew. 

Really? Where else was it confirmed that the Reapers aren't using organic paste in their construction, but are uploading the minds and memories of organics? Because as witnessed by several pages on the matter, most people didn't already know that.

[Shepard the Leper]

111987 wrote...

Who says they weren't going to salvage it? They weren't planning on destroying it; it was just unlucky that it had to be crushed.

Besides, do you really want to have a ship that indoctrinated and huskified all your researchers anywhere near you?

How the hell are you supposed to fight Reapers that are fully operational (thousands of em in ME3)? You can't run away, so it's a lot easier and less risky to investigate a "paralyzed" one. You might even discover a way to counter the indoctrination process. In order to fight an enemy you have to understand its strengths and weaknesses. You have to know what they can do and how they do it.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

Interesting catch.  Though it doesn't explain how pureing them "uploads" them into the body, nor how billions of seperate minds become, well, a Reaper mind that wants to do unto others what has been done unto them.  I'd say that's indoctrination, but that causes mental degeneration, likely not a desirable side effect in reaperfication.

Do you only get that dialogue if you let the crew die?  Or was he joking there?

The phrase at the end about Nazara "corrupting" the geth was also intriguing, and may lend credence to my theroy about the Heretics.

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...
If such is the case, then Ii submit that the ME2 squad was too frakking big. 

And the feeling of being crowded is heightened by the fact that you can only take two of them with you on any mission.  Why would it be so hard to up that to 3 and give us the option to set up tactics... like a certain other Bioware series? 

I'd say it's heightened even further by only being able to take one with you.  The person the focus mission centers on.  The other squadmate is esssentially irrelevant.

And to keep this vaguely on topic, yes, smudboy mentions this too.

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

Interesting catch.  Though it doesn't explain how pureing them "uploads" them into the body, nor how billions of seperate minds become, well, a Reaper mind that wants to do unto others what has been done unto them.  I'd say that's indoctrination, but that causes mental degeneration, likely not a desirable side effect in reaperfication.

Do you only get that dialogue if you let the crew die?  Or was he joking there?

The phrase at the end about Nazara "corrupting" the geth was also intriguing, and may lend credence to my theroy about the Heretics.

Yeah your crew has to die, because you have to go through all of Legion's conversations, meaning you have to do his loyalty mission and 3-4 N7 missions before the suicide mission to get the dialogue.

You're right, it doesn't explain everything, but I think this is adequate enough for ME2, no?

Shepard the Leper wrote...

111987 wrote...

Who
says they weren't going to salvage it? They weren't planning on
destroying it; it was just unlucky that it had to be crushed.

Besides, do you really want to have a ship that indoctrinated and huskified all your researchers anywhere near you?

How
the hell are you supposed to fight Reapers that are fully operational
(thousands of em in ME3)? You can't run away, so it's a lot easier and
less risky to investigate a "paralyzed" one. You might even discover a
way to counter the indoctrination process. In order to fight an enemy
you have to understand its strengths and weaknesses. You have to know
what they can do and how they do it.

Um...they
were researching it...all I said was that you shouldn't drag it towards
the center of your organization or something like that. I didn't say
anywhere that it shouldn't be studied.

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

To everyone complaining about the Human-Reaper, check out this video didymos just posted...it clarifies a lot about the nature of the Reapers. Great find!

www.youtube.com/watch

Interesting catch.  Though it doesn't explain how pureing them "uploads" them into the body, nor how billions of seperate minds become, well, a Reaper mind that wants to do unto others what has been done unto them.  I'd say that's indoctrination, but that causes mental degeneration, likely not a desirable side effect in reaperfication.

The whole "puree" thing was strictly unnecessary, and appears to have been purely a cheap attempt at body horror.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

Yeah your crew has to die, because you have to go through all of Legion's conversations, meaning you have to do his loyalty mission and 3-4 N7 missions before the suicide mission to get the dialogue.

You're right, it doesn't explain everything, but I think this is adequate enough for ME2, no?

Let's just say it helps.

But what doesn't help are the exacting conditions needed to get that dialogue.  Sounds even worse than getting the "I couldn't let you go" speech from Liara to explain her attitude (pre-LOTSB)

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...
If such is the case, then Ii submit that the ME2 squad was too frakking big. 

And the feeling of being crowded is heightened by the fact that you can only take two of them with you on any mission.  Why would it be so hard to up that to 3 and give us the option to set up tactics... like a certain other Bioware series? 

I'd say it's heightened even further by only being able to take one with you.  The person the focus mission centers on.  The other squadmate is esssentially irrelevant.

And to keep this vaguely on topic, yes, smudboy mentions this too.

I was refering to the size of the squad vs how many you could take with you in general.  But you're right, on the "LMs", the other teammate is largely silent.  Jacob and Jack's "LMs" are at least good in that the "along for the ride" character gets to make a few comments. 

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

To each other?  Probably not much.  But as I said earlier, thery could have been tied more closely to Shepard and his mission.

They could, but that would still be a significant step up above what Bioware games normally give us. How many companion quests in KotOR, Jade Empire, or Origins stemmed from the main narrative?  

They also could have tied more into the concept of a squad, with squadmates making comments on the situation in the focus missions.  Not just Jack's response to the Eclipse merc commenting on Miranda's outfit or Tali taking umbrage to the "quarian with a tummyache" line.  But actually contributing their $0.02 into a decision.  Like Anders "You hypocrite!  You really are just jealous!", Isabela's "bend her over a basin" comment.  Fenris' "Because you are a monster" line.  If nothing else, it would add to replayability if different squadmates had different thoughts on letting Sidonis live, what to do about the genophage data, or what to tell the Admiralty board.

We've always disagreed on this. Extra squad banter (for me) is an extra; nice to have, but I won't notice if it's gone. All those lines you mentioned. How often does it actually impact the said character mission? Unless it's going to produce noticeable effects (akin to bringing Shale to Caridin's anvil), I don't consider one or two lines of dialogue meaningful, especially when the encounter plays out the same.  

And here I thought this was supposed to be "Shepard's story", and about preparing for a mission against the Collectors   Perhaps I wouldn't have felt so cheated by the game if they had been more honest about what the game was about.  

But it still is Shepard's story. The intro, conclusion, Collector Missions, most dialogue, etc, still follows everything through Shepard. As I said, most Bioware games have never made an active effort to extend a character quest from the main plotline. I don't see why ME2 is in great violation. Imo, it's still miles ahead of ME1 where half the cast didn't even have character missions, and (Garrus aside) the included missions had little thought attached.

Because like I said, I don't particularly object to having these missions that focus on the characters, but they do so to the exclusion of the Collector story.  Serialized dramas may focus on a given character, but even then such an episode may advance the storyline.  If the Suicide Mission was teh "season finale" then the "season" should have been building up to that.  Not just devote four episodes towards advancing the plot and leaving the rest of the season as standalones. 

While some stories which follow episodic content might advance the storyline (See Heroes: Episode 17- Company Man), there are many more which barely move it an inch.

Watchmen's character chapters don't move the narrative much forward. Firefly episode Jeynestown is similar. Hell, most of Firefly doesn't even occupy a central narrative. Likewise with many episodes of Avatar: the Last Airbender, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Heroes, Samurai Champloo, etc. The "build up" to the suicide mission was contained in the intro, dialogue, and Collector Missions, which still fulfilled their function in my opinion.

And  however well done they are, these missions have no greater focus on the main story than any other side misson.  Helping out Thane had no greater impact on the story than helping Leliana against Marjorlaine.  In fact, that one may impact the game more, since Leliana's personality can be altered depending on your actions there  

If you had said Alistair, I would agree since his personality impacts potential rule of Ferelden. Changing Leliana's personality is entirely irrelevant to the story, outside of Leliana.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:19 .