6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Show me why you are completely sure the ME field will hold indefinitely. Do you have any evidence or is the fact that the thing is still there sufficient?

Because it hasn't moved for over a millennia. Do you know what the odds are of a Reaper that old suddenly falling to pieces at that exact moment? Future events predicated on past events. You want another fun example: if I drop a rock a million times, gravity will always cause it to hit the ground. Prove to me (indefinitely) that if I conducted this experiment again that the rock will always hit the ground.

Sufficient evidence is based on the Reaper having survived next to the brown dwarf for a million years. In other words, you (not I) need evidence which demonstrates that Shepard has reason to think that the situation would change at this point in time. 
 

Hell, 37000 millenia, really. 

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Show me why you are completely sure the ME field will hold indefinitely. Do you have any evidence or is the fact that the thing is still there sufficient?

Because it hasn't moved for over a millennia. Do you know what the odds are of a Reaper that old suddenly falling to pieces at that exact moment? Future events predicated on past events. You want another fun example: if I drop a rock a million times, gravity will always cause it to hit the ground. Prove to me (indefinitely) that if I conducted this experiment again that the rock will always hit the ground.

Sufficient evidence is based on the Reaper having survived next to the brown dwarf for a million years. In other words, you (not I) need evidence which demonstrates that Shepard has reason to think that the situation would change at this point in time. 
 

Hell, 37000 millenia, really. 

Hmm, apparently I need to replay Mass Effect 2 as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I know that the shield emitters are on the outside of the shell of the Reaper. The hardened part of the Reaper.

I really doubt that Shepard & CO has the firepower to take out something like that.

Why not? Emitters are not armor.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

I guess we disagree about the definition of a "mess". The Reaper isn't exactly located in a comfortable place to investigate it. For all we know its mass effect field can fail any minute (or maybe last another million years who knows). The top priority with such a find is always to get it somewhere safe and secure. Hanging out near a Brown Dwarf isn't what I call safe and secure.

Again, what are you talking about? Show me where, in the narrative, it is established that this Reaper's ME fields could fail at any moment. Positive evidence is needed to support your claim. Consider that it's survived at least a millenia unscathed. You're basically making up non-existent scenario to justify your idiotic idea that Shepard should be dragging around a giant sentient space ship, ignoring what resources would even be necessary to move the Reaper. The narrative is fine there.

And where is it established that it couldn't?
I mean, equipment that has been running without proper mantainance will start to break down sooner or later. And being near a brown dwarf is not a safe place - not only for the derelict, but also for any other ships and the scientists.

To me it makes sense to move it away to a safer spot. And it makes sense to know something fishy is going on when the tema doesn't respond.
But then again, given the Collector ship, sense isn't something people in the ME universe seem gifted with.

[Sgt Stryker]

You know, thinking back about that Derelict Reaper mission, I have to wonder if at some point there was an earlier build where you recovered the IFF much earlier than in the release version of the game. That would explain the nonsense "Hey, there's the IFF. I wonder what happened to the Cerberus team?" line that every squadmate says for some reason. Uh, see those husks we just blasted through? That's what happened to the Cerberus team.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why not? Emitters are not armor.

No, but if they're strong enough to survive a collision with a spaceship, I doubt small arms fire will do anything.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

You know, thinking back about that Derelict Reaper mission, I have to wonder if at some point there was an earlier build where you recovered the IFF much earlier than in the release version of the game. That would explain the nonsense "Hey, there's the IFF. I wonder what happened to the Cerberus team?" line that every squadmate says for some reason. Uh, see those husks we just blasted through? That's what happened to the Cerberus team.

Legion has dialogue and cutscenes for many of the other missions that take place long before you can ever go to the derelict Reaper in the release. 

The game was chopped up in strange ways in order to get around the pathetic limitations of the Xbox.  This is also why you have to get a specific four of the teammates before Horizon, then do Horizon, then go get the rest of the teammates -- on the Xbox, that break is where the disk was changed out, IIRC. 

I'd love to see a PC-only patch for ME2 that takes the Xbox limits out of the game. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
Jack has a lot of stored up energy due to being in cryo. Biotic have to release that energy in their bodies ether through use or static eletricity. Being that she is a super biotic and she generates more biotic energy than most biotics.......what happen in her escape happened.

Sauce?

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ERm...I'm going to nitpick here  - but no, it's not.

Sovy's shield could have simply been overloaded. And the overload "stunned" him. We are talking about the firepwoer on hte level of hunderds of nukes being thrown at Sovereign. I find it far more credible for that to cause an overlord, rather than some remote.controlled puppet.

The timing of the animation isn'treally an issue, because all animatiosn are set to happen after specific triggers. You can take your sweet time fighting Saren or Sovereign - hours - and the number of ships destroyed by Soverign doesn't change.

If the devs wanted to show that, they would have shown the fleet actually firing upon Sovereign when the shields were brought down. No-one was even firing at it when Sovereign collapsed. Besides, we have never seen anywhere that bringing down shields stuns the shielded object, even though almost every enemy in the game does have a shield.

The most obvious answer, Occam's Razer is you will, is that Saren's death stunned Sovereign.

Ship not equal human. Ship shields overloading wouldn't be the same as personal shields.

And don't go using Occams Razor, since avatar weakenss isn't the simpler explanation

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

You are unwilling to understand my point. Bioware as the authors can do whatever the **** they want, it's their story. And of course it "works", since the game doesn't crash at that point (that seems to be your criteria so I'll use it). If you think these are sufficient reasons for not making it "bad writing", then I'm afraid you'll fail to understand anything else I may try to educate you on, since this is as basic as it can get.

About being a "nitpick", I aint the one who brought it up, just stating my opinion about it. I don't have a grudge against it, it's just a sad simple fact that producing these games with dozens if not hundreds of developers and writers will always end up with these incoherency problems, specially if you are bound to a tight schedule of deliverance.

My "grudge" (if I can even describe it thus) is only with the people insisting that this is alright and there's no problem in maintaining it in the canon. These people have serious problems in their head.

So you know how much energy is requires to reanimate a corpse and give it superpowers?

Far less than it takes to absorb the firepwoer of en entire fleet.

What is this mystical type of energy you speak off?
Why does Soevering have to take such symbiotic and total control?

It does not make sense....at all.

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And where is it established that it couldn't?

I mean, equipment that has been running without proper mantainance will start to break down sooner or later.

 Equipment breaks down. This is something we (as beings which use technology) understand. This Reaper has gone 37 million years sitting next to this brown dwarf and nothing has happened. It's a basic assumption that it's not going anywhere, bar some catastrophe. Shepard is not planning to live in this thing, he's going to make a pick up. The odds that at this particular moment the Reaper would suddenly choose to crash into the dwarf are astronomical.

And being near a brown dwarf is not a safe place - not only for the derelict, but also for any other ships and the scientists.

I never said it was safe, but we're entering the Reaper, which has been sitting next to a brown dwarf for an extraordinary amount of time with no harm.

To me it makes sense to move it away to a safer spot. And it makes sense to know something fishy is going on when the tema doesn't respond.
But then again, given the Collector ship, sense isn't something people in the ME universe seem gifted with.

It's impractical, as well as nonsensical. The size of Reapers are capable of dwarfing the Destiny Ascension. How exactly do you propose dragging the Reaper away from the dwarf? Is Shepard and co. going to get out and push? What happens if and when other ships come across it? A million different issues to consider in transporting the Reaper.

No one is denying that a dead Reaper would be incredibly useful for information, however transportation and examination is something which would require long-term planning. There is nothing (at that time) to suggest that Shepard couldn't deal with the current threat: the Collectors. This is done by acquiring the IFF, at the present time.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 septembre 2011 - 07:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
Not speculation. If Soverign could do what he need to do with husk, he would of been turning people to husk left and right. Saren even tell you himself that that they are degrees of indocrination, the most valuble are kept intelligent while the rest are turn into mind less slaves. If Soverign could do what is need to do with a mindless husk or fully indorcinated mindless person, why allow Saren to keep him intelligents?
And that how I understand their are degrees of control a reaper can have on an indocrinated person....Saren experiance.

So.....
Husk =Remote control
They way soverign control Saren= Direct control.

The first thing spoken out of Saran's 100% controled form is"I am Soverign....Andf this is my station." Clearly, he is in direct control of Saren's body.

So what? Waht does "direct control" mean? Why did sovereign take direct control? Waht was wrong with regular remote control?
Why would it hurt or stun Sovereign at all?

Dear Lord...I feel compelled to join Arhitekt on this crusade agaisnt stupidity.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ERm...I'm going to nitpick here  - but no, it's not.

Sovy's shield could have simply been overloaded. And the overload "stunned" him. We are talking about the firepwoer on hte level of hunderds of nukes being thrown at Sovereign. I find it far more credible for that to cause an overlord, rather than some remote.controlled puppet.

The timing of the animation isn'treally an issue, because all animatiosn are set to happen after specific triggers. You can take your sweet time fighting Saren or Sovereign - hours - and the number of ships destroyed by Soverign doesn't change.

If the devs wanted to show that, they would have shown the fleet actually firing upon Sovereign when the shields were brought down. No-one was even firing at it when Sovereign collapsed. Besides, we have never seen anywhere that bringing down shields stuns the shielded object, even though almost every enemy in the game does have a shield.

The most obvious answer, Occam's Razer is you will, is that Saren's death stunned Sovereign.

Ship not equal human. Ship shields overloading wouldn't be the same as personal shields.

And don't go using Occams Razor, since avatar weakenss isn't the simpler explanation

Source? The Normandy didn't shut down when it lost its shields in the debris field. Has any other ship shut down because it lost its shields?

Avatar weakness is the most simple and obvious explanation. Saren is destroyed, and immediately afterwards, Sovereign shuts down. It doesn't just lose its shields, it shuts down. Despite not even being fired at when the shut-down occurs. Just because you need everything spelled out for you doesn't mean we all do.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Even if it doesn't shut down, Sovereign is definately affected in some way by the destruction of Saren.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Not speculation. If Soverign could do what he need to do with husk, he would of been turning people to husk left and right. Saren even tell you himself that that they are degrees of indocrination, the most valuble are kept intelligent while the rest are turn into mind less slaves. If Soverign could do what is need to do with a mindless husk or fully indorcinated mindless person, why allow Saren to keep him intelligents?
And that how I understand their are degrees of control a reaper can have on an indocrinated person....Saren experiance.

So.....
Husk =Remote control
They way soverign control Saren= Direct control.

The first thing spoken out of Saran's 100% controled form is"I am Soverign....Andf this is my station." Clearly, he is in direct control of Saren's body.

So what? Waht does "direct control" mean? Why did sovereign take direct control? Waht was wrong with regular remote control?
Why would it hurt or stun Sovereign at all?

Dear Lord...I feel compelled to join Arhitekt on this crusade agaisnt stupidity.

Direct control is when Sovereign physically manipulates Saren's body like a puppet. It's the same thing as with what happened with Grayson. They can only do that when their subjects are implanted with Reaper nanotechnology (i.e. Saren, Colelctors, Paul Grayson).

What the hell is 'remote' control anyways?

Why would it stun Sovereign? Because it invested a lot of energy into reanimating and controlling Saren; Sovereign in a sense BECAME Saren ("I am Sovereign, and this station is MINE!"). By killing Saren, you're killing in a way killing Sovereign. Not permanently of course, but it's not a stretch to think that if you inhabit another person's body and that body is destroyed, you would be temporarily stunned.

Once again, does everything need to be spelled out for you to enjoy the story? Obviously, yes...

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And where is it established that it couldn't?

I mean, equipment that has been running without proper mantainance will start to break down sooner or later.

[/quote]

 Equipment breaks down. This is something we (as beings which use technology) understand. This Reaper has gone 37 million years sitting next to this brown dwarf and nothing has happened. It's a basic assumption that it's not going anywhere, bar some catastrophe. Shepard is not planning to live in this thing, he's going to make a pick up. The odds that at this particular moment the Reaper would suddenly choose to crash into the dwarf are astronomical. [/quote]

Again, how would you know? It's alien equipment. It could go on for thousands of years, or it could fizzle out tomorrow.
Why take the risk with something this important?

It's like building a house on the volcano (without any measurements), confident it's perfectly safe becuase it didn't erupt for the last 10000 years. And then place the only cure for cancer in the house.

And you forget, the odds of it failing are increasing with every year/month that it didnt' fail.


[quote]
And being near a brown dwarf is not a safe place - not only for the derelict, but also for any other ships and the scientists. [/quote]

I never said it was safe, but we're entering the Reaper, which has been sitting next to a brown dwarf for an extraordinary amount of time with no harm. [/quote]

Aaaand?



[quote][quote]
To me it makes sense to move it away to a safer spot. And it makes sense to know something fishy is going on when the team doesn't respond.
But then again, given the Collector ship, sense isn't something people in the ME universe seem gifted with.
[/quote]

It's impractical, as well as nonsensical. The size of Reapers are capable of dwarfing the Destiny Ascension. How exactly do you propose dragging the Reaper away from the dwarf? Is Shepard and co. going to get out and push? What happens if and when other ships come across it? A million different issues to consider in transporting the Reaper. [/quote]

It's space bub.
Pulling massive things is not a problem, especially not with ME tech.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ERm...I'm going to nitpick here  - but no, it's not.

Sovy's shield could have simply been overloaded. And the overload "stunned" him. We are talking about the firepwoer on hte level of hunderds of nukes being thrown at Sovereign. I find it far more credible for that to cause an overlord, rather than some remote.controlled puppet.

The timing of the animation isn'treally an issue, because all animatiosn are set to happen after specific triggers. You can take your sweet time fighting Saren or Sovereign - hours - and the number of ships destroyed by Soverign doesn't change.

If the devs wanted to show that, they would have shown the fleet actually firing upon Sovereign when the shields were brought down. No-one was even firing at it when Sovereign collapsed. Besides, we have never seen anywhere that bringing down shields stuns the shielded object, even though almost every enemy in the game does have a shield.

The most obvious answer, Occam's Razer is you will, is that Saren's death stunned Sovereign.

Ship not equal human. Ship shields overloading wouldn't be the same as personal shields.

And don't go using Occams Razor, since avatar weakenss isn't the simpler explanation

Source? The Normandy didn't shut down when it lost its shields in the debris field. Has any other ship shut down because it lost its shields?

Have we seen any other ship taking such a beating? nope.

Avatar weakness is the most simple and obvious explanation. Saren is destroyed, and immediately afterwards, Sovereign shuts down. It doesn't just lose its shields, it shuts down. Despite not even being fired at when the shut-down occurs. Just because you need everything spelled out for you doesn't mean we all do.

Not being fired at? The fleet was fighting it constantly.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ERm...I'm going to nitpick here  - but no, it's not.

Sovy's shield could have simply been overloaded. And the overload "stunned" him. We are talking about the firepwoer on hte level of hunderds of nukes being thrown at Sovereign. I find it far more credible for that to cause an overlord, rather than some remote.controlled puppet.

The timing of the animation isn'treally an issue, because all animatiosn are set to happen after specific triggers. You can take your sweet time fighting Saren or Sovereign - hours - and the number of ships destroyed by Soverign doesn't change.

If the devs wanted to show that, they would have shown the fleet actually firing upon Sovereign when the shields were brought down. No-one was even firing at it when Sovereign collapsed. Besides, we have never seen anywhere that bringing down shields stuns the shielded object, even though almost every enemy in the game does have a shield.

The most obvious answer, Occam's Razer is you will, is that Saren's death stunned Sovereign.

Ship not equal human. Ship shields overloading wouldn't be the same as personal shields.

And don't go using Occams Razor, since avatar weakenss isn't the simpler explanation

Source? The Normandy didn't shut down when it lost its shields in the debris field. Has any other ship shut down because it lost its shields?

Have we seen any other ship taking such a beating? nope.

Avatar weakness is the most simple and obvious explanation. Saren is destroyed, and immediately afterwards, Sovereign shuts down. It doesn't just lose its shields, it shuts down. Despite not even being fired at when the shut-down occurs. Just because you need everything spelled out for you doesn't mean we all do.

Not being fired at? The fleet was fighting it constantly.

You are being ridiculous, and I think you know it. If a ship could be overloaded by taking out its shields, there would be some evidence for it, a Codex entry or something. That fact is the Normandy's shields were depleted, just like you believe Sovereign's shields were depleted. Therefore, the Normandy should have shut down just like Sovereign in the debris field.

Watch the scene again. When Sovereign 'shuts down', no-one is firing at it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So what? Waht does "direct control" mean? Why did sovereign take direct control? Waht was wrong with regular remote control?
Why would it hurt or stun Sovereign at all?

Dear Lord...I feel compelled to join Arhitekt on this crusade agaisnt stupidity.

Direct control is when Sovereign physically manipulates Saren's body like a puppet. It's the same thing as with what happened with Grayson. They can only do that when their subjects are implanted with Reaper nanotechnology (i.e. Saren, Colelctors, Paul Grayson).

What the hell is 'remote' control anyways?

Why would it stun Sovereign? Because it invested a lot of energy into reanimating and controlling Saren; Sovereign in a sense BECAME Saren ("I am Sovereign, and this station is MINE!"). By killing Saren, you're killing in a way killing Sovereign. Not permanently of course, but it's not a stretch to think that if you inhabit another person's body and that body is destroyed, you would be temporarily stunned.

Which is, as I said beofer - utter bulls****. Stupidity of the heighest caliber.

What can sovereign accomplish with "direct control" of that type that it can't accomplish with regular remote control (not putting his mind direclty into it).
Ever heard of remote desktop? I can do everything on the computer I'm connected to, and nothing happens to mine if it blows up.
Ever heard of remote control? Same principle.

WHY does controling Saren hurt sovereign? Don't thro in some BS "energy" mumbo-jumbo. that doens't explain anything. It doesn't even make sense. If Sovereign invested energy in Saren, then it now has that energy back to use.

so again.

WHY would Sovereign use that kind of control? For what gain?
WHY would the destruction fo hte avatar hurt him?

you didn't give any proper answers to those.

[P38 ace]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Not speculation. If Soverign could do what he need to do with husk, he would of been turning people to husk left and right. Saren even tell you himself that that they are degrees of indocrination, the most valuble are kept intelligent while the rest are turn into mind less slaves. If Soverign could do what is need to do with a mindless husk or fully indorcinated mindless person, why allow Saren to keep him intelligents?
And that how I understand their are degrees of control a reaper can have on an indocrinated person....Saren experiance.

So.....
Husk =Remote control
They way soverign control Saren= Direct control.

The first thing spoken out of Saran's 100% controled form is"I am Soverign....Andf this is my station." Clearly, he is in direct control of Saren's body.

So what? Waht does "direct control" mean? Why did sovereign take direct control? Waht was wrong with regular remote control?
Why would it hurt or stun Sovereign at all?

Dear Lord...I feel compelled to join Arhitekt on this crusade agaisnt stupidity.

UHHHH its called Saren was dead,, something that is dead can not DO anything

Remote controll just compells something to do something
if that something is sentiant, it can resist

Direct control takes controll of the nevus system DIRECTLY, on resitances what so ever

Husks are reanimated and still are techincally alive so can still move, but because they are not sentiant no resitance
Saren was sentiant, so he could resist, when he got 2 bullets in his brain, he was no longer alive, thus only direct control will work

[P38 ace]

and computer are differant than Sentiant beings

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...
You are being ridiculous, and I think you know it. If a ship could be overloaded by taking out its shields, there would be some evidence for it, a Codex entry or something. That fact is the Normandy's shields were depleted, just like you believe Sovereign's shields were depleted. Therefore, the Normandy should have shut down just like Sovereign in the debris field.

Watch the scene again. When Sovereign 'shuts down', no-one is firing at it.

Depleted is not the same as overloaded/overheated. If you can't learn the differenc,e there is no point in taling to you at all.

And the cutscene? It's accuracy is highly debatable for multiple reasons - and primiary reason being the devs themselves confirming it was rushed and not entirely accurate.

you dont' see any shots - but then again, mass driver would be too fast to see, no? And the fleet was fighting at hte tiem, so it only makes sense for them to also be shooting. Unless you can tell me wtf the fleet has been doing?

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So what? Waht does "direct control" mean? Why did sovereign take direct control? Waht was wrong with regular remote control?
Why would it hurt or stun Sovereign at all?

Dear Lord...I feel compelled to join Arhitekt on this crusade agaisnt stupidity.

Direct control is when Sovereign physically manipulates Saren's body like a puppet. It's the same thing as with what happened with Grayson. They can only do that when their subjects are implanted with Reaper nanotechnology (i.e. Saren, Colelctors, Paul Grayson).

What the hell is 'remote' control anyways?

Why would it stun Sovereign? Because it invested a lot of energy into reanimating and controlling Saren; Sovereign in a sense BECAME Saren ("I am Sovereign, and this station is MINE!"). By killing Saren, you're killing in a way killing Sovereign. Not permanently of course, but it's not a stretch to think that if you inhabit another person's body and that body is destroyed, you would be temporarily stunned.

Which is, as I said beofer - utter bulls****. Stupidity of the heighest caliber.

What can sovereign accomplish with "direct control" of that type that it can't accomplish with regular remote control (not putting his mind direclty into it).
Ever heard of remote desktop? I can do everything on the computer I'm connected to, and nothing happens to mine if it blows up.
Ever heard of remote control? Same principle.

WHY does controling Saren hurt sovereign? Don't thro in some BS "energy" mumbo-jumbo. that doens't explain anything. It doesn't even make sense. If Sovereign invested energy in Saren, then it now has that energy back to use.

so again.

WHY would Sovereign use that kind of control? For what gain?
WHY would the destruction fo hte avatar hurt him?

you didn't give any proper answers to those.

How can Sovereign 'remote' control a corpse? Reapers have only been shown to be able of physically controlling an entity by 'possessing' them, for lack of a better word.

Controlling Saren doesn't hurt Sovereign. Being killed while possessing Saren does. Sovereign in some sense was 'killed' when Saren was destroyed. It was a very intimate relationship; Sovereign 'became' Saren. It makes perfect sense that this would stun it.

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

You know, thinking back about that Derelict Reaper mission, I have to wonder if at some point there was an earlier build where you recovered the IFF much earlier than in the release version of the game. That would explain the nonsense "Hey, there's the IFF. I wonder what happened to the Cerberus team?" line that every squadmate says for some reason. Uh, see those husks we just blasted through? That's what happened to the Cerberus team.

I always thought they meant the Cerberus team as a whole and wondered if there were any survivors.

[Lotion Soronarr]

P38 ace wrote...
UHHHH its called Saren was dead,, something that is dead can not DO anything

Remote controll just compells something to do something
if that something is sentiant, it can resist

Direct control takes controll of the nevus system DIRECTLY, on resitances what so ever

Husks are reanimated and still are techincally alive so can still move, but because they are not sentiant no resitance
Saren was sentiant, so he could resist, when he got 2 bullets in his brain, he was no longer alive, thus only direct control will work

And?
You still fail to explain why can't a reaperized body be remotely controled. What's stopping it?
Saren being dead is actually a point against, as there would be no resistance whatsoever, making it even simpler to control the body.