6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Their trap was undermined because of EDI, which they didn't know of. Unknown factors do not make them incompetent. Incompetent would be if they damaged their own ship in the process of the trap and let Shepard flee without a fight.

I don't remember coming across anything that said that EDI undermined the Collectors from beginning to end.  The only time EDI made any connection to the ship was when we first stepped on that platform after the facepalm inducing "They're going to go after Earth" moment.  The Collectors could have sprung their trap as soon as the team got up the incline.  The team was in a wide enough space where they could be monitored.  There was nothing stopping the Collectors except the writers fixing things so that it would play out the way they wanted it to.  The Collectors also had their seeker swarms.  Even with the countermeasure they could have swamped the team as evidenced at the Collector Base.  

That makes the Collectors incompetent.  What the Collectors had initiated was a simple trap.  The kind that involves a box, a stick, and a long piece of string to pull said stick when your prey is within the area of capture.  They also had other tools at their disposal to confound their target while in said trap.  At that point there's no point in actually thinking the Collectors are a threat anymore.  Saren was worse than they were.  If Saren had the tools the Collectors had there's no way Shepard and company would survive.

While your example of incompetence is correct it is not the only example as I explained above.  Being so cocksure of your ability to detain an enemy is ridiculous by any means.  Keep in mind that the Collector general is controlled by Harbinger - a Reaper that who has responsibility of doing whatever the Collectors were trying to do because Sovereign failed.  The idea that Harbinger would take it easy on Shepard given that he already had Shepard killed at the opening of the game is incredibly bad.  Childish villains are written that way.  Villains that are to show the audience that they have half a bain are written to be more intelligent, smarter, and opportunistic when things happen to coincide in such a way that they can take what they want with minimal effort.  The Collector ship was one such example.

edited because cocksure is in the dictionary

Modifié par Xeranx, 29 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[MDT1]

@Xeranx:
Yes the Collectors are incompetent.
It's a result of millenia of genetic "devolution".
Thats no plothole, it's intended and even mentioned.
They only manage most of their work because of Harbinger who is like any Reaper still extremly arrogant and thinks us "insignificant".

Modifié par MDT1, 29 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[Illiandri]

MDT1 wrote...

@Xeranx:
Yes the Collectors are incompetent.
It's a result of millenia of genetic "devolution".
They only manage most of their work becaue of Harbinger who is like any Reaper still extremly arrogant and thinks us "insignificant".

QFT. This.

[111987]

Xeranx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Their trap was undermined because of EDI, which they didn't know of. Unknown factors do not make them incompetent. Incompetent would be if they damaged their own ship in the process of the trap and let Shepard flee without a fight.

I don't remember coming across anything that said that EDI undermined the Collectors from beginning to end.  The only time EDI made any connection to the ship was when we first stepped on that platform after the facepalm inducing "They're going to go after Earth" moment.  The Collectors could have sprung their trap as soon as the team got up the incline.  The team was in a wide enough space where they could be monitored.  There was nothing stopping the Collectors except the writers fixing things so that it would play out the way they wanted it to.  The Collectors also had their seeker swarms.  Even with the countermeasure they could have swamped the team as evidenced at the Collector Base.  

That makes the Collectors incompetent.  What the Collectors had initiated was a simple trap.  The kind that involves a box, a stick, and a long piece of string to pull said stick when your prey is within the area of capture.  They also had other tools at their disposal to confound their target while in said trap.  At that point there's no point in actually thinking the Collectors are a threat anymore.  Saren was worse than they were.  If Saren had the tools the Collectors had there's no way Shepard and company would survive.

While your example of incompetence is correct it is not the only example as I explained above.  Being so ****sure of your ability to detain an enemy is ridiculous by any means.  Keep in mind that the Collector general is controlled by Harbinger - a Reaper that who has responsibility of doing whatever the Collectors were trying to do because Sovereign failed.  The idea that Harbinger would take it easy on Shepard given that he already had Shepard killed at the opening of the game is incredibly bad.  Childish villains are written that way.  Villains that are to show the audience that they have half a bain are written to be more intelligent, smarter, and opportunistic when things happen to coincide in such a way that they can take what they want with minimal effort.  The Collector ship was one such example.

I'm afraid I don't see the issue here; why does it matter where the Collectors sprang their attack? They lured them to the location they wanted them to be in, and attacked. Were it not for EDI hacking into the ship Shepard and the crew would never have gotten off those platforms, or they would have been trapped in the Praetorian room. The trap they set was realistic, even if you yourself would have planned it differently.

And of course the writers wrote it in a way that allowed data on the Collectors to be gathered; how stupid would the game be if as soon as you step into the Collector Ship you're imprisoned?

As for the seeker swarms; as mentioned, there were Mordin's counter measures that are effective at blocking out a hell of a lot of seekers, as we see on Horizon. The Collectors didn't know exactly how the countermeasures worked, only that they did. It would thus be reasonable for them to simply not bother with the idea as from their knowledge, it would be ineffective anyways.

Harbinger did not 'take it easy on Shepard'. Were it not for EDI, Shepard would have had to kill everyone on the Collector Ship to escape, assuming he could even get the doors open somehow.

[Someone With Mass]

It was undermined, because EDI bought Shepard & Co enough time to escape by slowing down the start up of the ship.

If they'd relied on brute force to do the trick, Shepard could've just fought his/her way out.

And if the same seeker swarm didn't work on Shepard and the team while they were on Horizon, then I doubt it'd have made any difference on the Collector ship, since it's the same swarm.

[CantGettaLock]

It's surprising to see just how many of you disagree with him. I thought his analysis was spot on, for the most part.

[Bourne Endeavor]

The argument is being made for the wrong portion of the mission. We need to determine why the Collectors sought to allow Shepard to board them to begin with. Most speculate Harbinger intended to capture him, however this contradicts earlier aspects of the plot wherein he made no such attempt, in actuality doing precisely the opposite. What benefit was there is risking the exposure of where their base was located? Excluding the oddly misplaced specuation the squad makes and incompetence of TIM betraying you, I do not have a boat load of qualms with the Collector Ship. You could theorize EDI thwarted their firewalls, which is somewhat contrived but feasible. It severely undermines Harbinger as an antagonist but he is a moron already. So there is some consistency there.

What makes me bang my head against the wall comes much later, after we acquire the IFF; which has problems of its own but I digress. When Shepard gathers his team of twelve badasses onto the shuttle for no adequate reason and leaves the Normandy. This is easily the worst sequence in the game. Installing hostile alien technology into your ship mainframe without testing it is asinine by its lonesome however why does everyone have to go on a mission to nowhere? This is the first instance in two games Shepard must take her whole team somewhere and the plot literally pushes them off to the side so it can do something else. Coincidently, this isn't the worst part. The Normandy is crippled, the Collectors lord overhead, dwarfing it... why do they board it? All Harbinger has to do is blow away the Normandy again and his entire antics back on the Collector Ship are not only work, it makes him a flipping genius. Harbinger could have screwed you over so horrendously, his tactics could be equated to pressing the "I Win" button. It is that bad.

With the Normandy gone, Harbinger buys himself ample time to continue abducting colonists, destroyed arguably the most advanced AI in the Galaxy (EDI) and eliminated your one and only means to safety pass through the Omega 4 Relay (IFF). Bonus, Shepard and crew are either stranded on a planet or in a shuttle. He could rain Collectors down on them to his leisure or use the mountain of a ship for sufficient overkill. Harbinger would have royally kicked Shepard's ass.

Unfortunately, they opt to take two dozen red shirts with no actual importance, don't so much as bother with EDI despite her having ruined their first plan and leave. All while Shepard and crew are on shore leave at Pizza Hut for all we know. Maybe they had a special on Krogan testicles; Garrus knows about those things after all.

Care to explain why that isn't a gapping plot hole? Hell it's two in one.

Il Divo, I have not forgotten our debate. I just really wanted to address this.

[111987]

CantGettaLock wrote...

It's surprising to see just how many of you disagree with him. I thought his analysis was spot on, for the most part.

The problem is when you delve too deep into ANY work of fiction, you're going to find some examples of bad writing/storytelling, inconsistencies, plot holes, etc...I mean, Mass Effect 1 was far from perfect but I don't see 6 videos of analysis on it being the worst told story in the history of video gaming, or something to that effect.

[MDT1]

@Bourne Endeavor
Actually Harbinger wanted Shepard since the end of ME1.
But as killing her and trying to recover her body made her only return even angrier he tries it different now.

But yeah, the "shuttle mission" feels very forced and is imho one of the few examples of real bad writing in ME.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

Modifié par Lizardviking, 29 août 2011 - 09:37 .

[111987]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The argument is being made for the wrong portion of the mission. We need to determine why the Collectors sought to allow Shepard to board them to begin with. Most speculate Harbinger intended to capture him, however this contradicts earlier aspects of the plot wherein he made no such attempt, in actuality doing precisely the opposite. What benefit was there is risking the exposure of where their base was located? Excluding the oddly misplaced specuation the squad makes and incompetence of TIM betraying you, I do not have a boat load of qualms with the Collector Ship. You could theorize EDI thwarted their firewalls, which is somewhat contrived but feasible. It severely undermines Harbinger as an antagonist but he is a moron already. So there is some consistency there.

What makes me bang my head against the wall comes much later, after we acquire the IFF; which has problems of its own but I digress. When Shepard gathers his team of twelve badasses onto the shuttle for no adequate reason and leaves the Normandy. This is easily the worst sequence in the game. Installing hostile alien technology into your ship mainframe without testing it is asinine by its lonesome however why does everyone have to go on a mission to nowhere? This is the first instance in two games Shepard must take her whole team somewhere and the plot literally pushes them off to the side so it can do something else. Coincidently, this isn't the worst part. The Normandy is crippled, the Collectors lord overhead, dwarfing it... why do they board it? All Harbinger has to do is blow away the Normandy again and his entire antics back on the Collector Ship are not only work, it makes him a flipping genius. Harbinger could have screwed you over so horrendously, his tactics could be equated to pressing the "I Win" button. It is that bad.

With the Normandy gone, Harbinger buys himself ample time to continue abducting colonists, destroyed arguably the most advanced AI in the Galaxy (EDI) and eliminated your one and only means to safety pass through the Omega 4 Relay (IFF). Bonus, Shepard and crew are either stranded on a planet or in a shuttle. He could rain Collectors down on them to his leisure or use the mountain of a ship for sufficient overkill. Harbinger would have royally kicked Shepard's ass.

Unfortunately, they opt to take two dozen red shirts with no actual importance, don't so much as bother with EDI despite her having ruined their first plan and leave. All while Shepard and crew are on shore leave at Pizza Hut for all we know. Maybe they had a special on Krogan testicles; Garrus knows about those things after all.

Care to explain why that isn't a gapping plot hole? Hell it's two in one.

Il Divo, I have not forgotten our debate. I just really wanted to address this.

The plan was to capture Shepard in order to study him; the Collectors were
intrigued from his exposure to the Prothean beacons and the Thorian. This is
consistent with Harbinger’s other actions; it’s why he attempted to recover
Shepard’s body from the Shadow Broker, and also why on Horizon he kept
reiterating that they wanted to ‘preserve Shepard’s body, if possible’, etc…


They had no choice but to test the IFF. Why wouldn’t they? It’s not like they’d just install it and pray it works when
they travel through the Omega 4 Relay. Why did the whole squad leave? There’s
no in-game explanation, which can be seen as bad writing, but even from my
first playthrough I always just assumed they all left the ship while it was
undergoing tests because a). they didn’t want any interferences or distractions
while running a potentially dangerous test and . because assuming there were
complications, they wouldn’t want to lose the entire team.

But let’s be honest; it is a means for the player to keep in squad intact for the Suicide Mission. I think more people
would be pissed if you lost all but two of your squadmates that you had just
spent like 90% of the game recruiting and making loyal. So pick your poison
really. I’ll stick with having my squad intact.


Why do the Collectors board the ship?
Because they are still trying to capture Shepard! They were just unlucky that
he and the rest of the crew wasn’t on board when the tested it. After they
realized Shepard wasn’t there maybe they did intend on destroying the Normandy,
but EDI killed all the Collectors on board and then FTL’d out of there. They
weren’t going to blow up the ship with their own people still on board. More than likely after the Collectors had left the ship, they would have destroyed or captured it. EDI simply managed to outplay them.

EDIT: Sorry for the weird formatting

Modifié par 111987, 29 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[Rovay]

@Bourne Endeavor

How do we exacly know Harbinger didn't plan to destroy the Normandy? Perhaps he wanted to capture the crew and afterwards turn Normandy into space dust? And he couldn't do the second plan because Joker unshackled EDI and escaped before he could fire? Ever though about that?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

That kind of tells me they aren't nearly as thorough and some would have you beleive.

[MDT1]

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

indeed, this is a bit fishy, but yeah the galaxy is quite big and perhaps nobody knew where he died ... No, I don't have a convincing explanation either (perhaps ME3 comes back to it with the defeating the reapers issue and has one, we can hope).

[111987]

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

The galaxy is a big place. Only 1% of it has been explored in the current Mass Effect universe. This Reaper is also orbiting a gas giant, not it's not like anyone is really looking for it. Plus, it's not emitting any signals, so the only possible way it could be found is through a visual, or by calculating the trajectory of the shot fired by the weapon that caused the Great Rift on Klendagon.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

MDT1 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

indeed, this is a bit fishy, but yeah the galaxy is quite big and perhaps nobody knew where he died ... No, I don't have a convincing explanation either (perhaps ME3 comes back to it with the defeating the reapers issue and has one, we can hope).

You would think the Reapers would have some sort of tracker so they can see the last known coordinants of each other. Have Harbinger lend Sovereign the Collectors to assist him in a extended search to find the Reaper in its last known place before death.

111987 wrote...
The galaxy is a big place. Only 1% of it has
been explored in the current Mass Effect universe. This Reaper is also
orbiting a gas giant, not it's not like anyone is really looking for it.
Plus, it's not emitting any signals, so the only possible way it could
be found is through a visual, or by calculating the trajectory of the
shot fired by the weapon that caused the Great Rift on Klendagon.

The IFF worked like a beacon that emitted its location. And the derelict Reaper did have power online.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
That kind of tells me they aren't nearly as thorough and some would have you beleive.

Because it is slightly more clumsy to forget to remove the corpse of someone who was slain in battle, than leave a couple of artifacts behind?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 29 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[dreman9999]

Xeranx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Their trap was undermined because of EDI, which they didn't know of. Unknown factors do not make them incompetent. Incompetent would be if they damaged their own ship in the process of the trap and let Shepard flee without a fight.

I don't remember coming across anything that said that EDI undermined the Collectors from beginning to end.  The only time EDI made any connection to the ship was when we first stepped on that platform after the facepalm inducing "They're going to go after Earth" moment.  The Collectors could have sprung their trap as soon as the team got up the incline.  The team was in a wide enough space where they could be monitored.  There was nothing stopping the Collectors except the writers fixing things so that it would play out the way they wanted it to.  The Collectors also had their seeker swarms.  Even with the countermeasure they could have swamped the team as evidenced at the Collector Base.  

That makes the Collectors incompetent.  What the Collectors had initiated was a simple trap.  The kind that involves a box, a stick, and a long piece of string to pull said stick when your prey is within the area of capture.  They also had other tools at their disposal to confound their target while in said trap.  At that point there's no point in actually thinking the Collectors are a threat anymore.  Saren was worse than they were.  If Saren had the tools the Collectors had there's no way Shepard and company would survive.

While your example of incompetence is correct it is not the only example as I explained above.  Being so cocksure of your ability to detain an enemy is ridiculous by any means.  Keep in mind that the Collector general is controlled by Harbinger - a Reaper that who has responsibility of doing whatever the Collectors were trying to do because Sovereign failed.  The idea that Harbinger would take it easy on Shepard given that he already had Shepard killed at the opening of the game is incredibly bad.  Childish villains are written that way.  Villains that are to show the audience that they have half a bain are written to be more intelligent, smarter, and opportunistic when things happen to coincide in such a way that they can take what they want with minimal effort.  The Collector ship was one such example.

edited because cocksure is in the dictionary

Your not understanding. Not letting Shepard get to the data would allow him/her to escape. One may not be able to hack a ship like EDI can, but Shepard can easily hack a door. Shepard would get out. The Idea would be to cut of the safe point and that's the ship. As long as the ship is functioning, Shepard can escape.

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

The galaxy is a big place. Only 1% of it has been explored in the current Mass Effect universe. This Reaper is also orbiting a gas giant, not it's not like anyone is really looking for it. Plus, it's not emitting any signals, so the only possible way it could be found is through a visual, or by calculating the trajectory of the shot fired by the weapon that caused the Great Rift on Klendagon.

For example, the mu relay was lost due to a super nova and could not be found because it was a cold object in space. It was only found because Matriarch Benezia forced it out of the rachi queens mind.
Think about this as the derlict reaper trappedin a brown star.

[111987]

Lizardviking wrote...

111987 wrote...
The galaxy is a big place. Only 1% of it has
been explored in the current Mass Effect universe. This Reaper is also
orbiting a gas giant, not it's not like anyone is really looking for it.
Plus, it's not emitting any signals, so the only possible way it could
be found is through a visual, or by calculating the trajectory of the
shot fired by the weapon that caused the Great Rift on Klendagon.

The IFF worked like a beacon that emitted its location. And the derelict Reaper did have power online.

The Reaper only reactivated once Shepard and the squad were on board. And ships in Mass Effect can only detect ships that are powered up (as stated in the Codex). And the IFF worked as a beacon to the Collectors, not to anyone else. And only when the IFF was being used. Thus there was no way for anyone to have found that Derelict Reaper unless you did exactly what Cerberus did, or just got INCREDIBLY lucky.

[dreman9999]

Lizardviking wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Another thing in the main-plot that bothers me is the existence of the derelict Reaper. We hear how the Reapers goes to great lenghts to hide themselves from the galaxy. But apparently they did not bother destroy the corpse of one of their own. Which is stupid since such a corpse still have valuable tech on it.

I guess both Harbinger and Sovereign just kinda forgot about it...

indeed, this is a bit fishy, but yeah the galaxy is quite big and perhaps nobody knew where he died ... No, I don't have a convincing explanation either (perhaps ME3 comes back to it with the defeating the reapers issue and has one, we can hope).

You would think the Reapers would have some sort of tracker so they can see the last known coordinants of each other. Have Harbinger lend Sovereign the Collectors to assist him in a extended search to find the Reaper in its last known place before death.

111987 wrote...
The galaxy is a big place. Only 1% of it has
been explored in the current Mass Effect universe. This Reaper is also
orbiting a gas giant, not it's not like anyone is really looking for it.
Plus, it's not emitting any signals, so the only possible way it could
be found is through a visual, or by calculating the trajectory of the
shot fired by the weapon that caused the Great Rift on Klendagon.

The IFF worked like a beacon that emitted its location. And the derelict Reaper did have power online.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
That kind of tells me they aren't nearly as thorough and some would have you beleive.

Because it is slightly more clumsy to forget to remove the corpse of someone who was slain in battle, than leave a couple of artifacts behind?

1. Track what....It's dead in a brown dwarf. What signal could be sent out of that?

[dreman9999]

CantGettaLock wrote...

It's surprising to see just how many of you disagree with him. I thought his analysis was spot on, for the most part.

Then you need to repay the game and look at the story slowly. Take account of the characters motivations, espeiclly TIM's.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Track what....It's dead in a brown dwarf. What signal could be sent out of that?

The Reaper must have died somewhere. Use that as a starting point. I know space is big, but Sovereign (and later the Collectors) got all the time in the world.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Computers don't "forget"...

[dreman9999]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Track what....It's dead in a brown dwarf. What signal could be sent out of that?

The Reaper must have died somewhere. Use that as a starting point. I know space is big, but Sovereign (and later the Collectors) got all the time in the world.

Ture, but it still was in a brown dwarf. And clearly, with thefact that the reason the reaper died was because of a weapon on a near by planet and the fact life is absent there mean that the reaper came to the system.

[dreman9999]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Computers don't "forget"...

Forget what?