6494 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

EDIT: Double post

Modifié par 111987, 30 août 2011 - 12:43 .

[Xeranx]

111987 wrote...

The objective of the mission was to find some way past the Omega 4 relay successfully. And it doesn't matter where the trap happened, all that matters is that there is a trap. Maybe the Collectors wanted the squad to be lured to the area with the platforms. Sealing the doors and trapping them in a room could work, but luring them onto platforms like a hundred feet up is even better. They could potentially hack through the doors, but they aren't going to fly down from the platform.

Okay.  I still see a problem in using the platforms as a place to hold the squad, but okay.

And I'm not sure on this, but didn't EDI hack the ship? How else would she be able to delay it from starting up, hack through doors, etc? Once again, even if they had prepard against possible hacking attacks, such as in a scenario where they place special locks on the doors to prevent escape, EDI is based on Reaper technology, giving her a level of sophistication equal to or greater than the Collectors.

Just played through a save that had me on the Collector ship before my initial comment on the data link, but don't have a save from before mission takes place.  

Shepard sets up a data bridge for EDI to mine information.  It's also this same point where EDI points out that TIM couldn't possibly think that the whole thing was a setup.  Later on, while Shepard is fighting, she say that she's having trouble breaking through firewalls because someone else is in the system.  EDI being based on Reaper tech and being comparitively equal or better to the Collectors is soley based on the skill of the engineer that programmed her.  That she is locked out of other systems she would likely be able to access anyway due to being based on Reaper tech is enough for me to have doubts as to her being advanced enough to take on the Reapers.  But it works to get the story going so I don't question it as much as I question why the possible source of said tech can't stop her or is completely inept to thwart Shepard on its own field of advantage. 

Also there's no other way for the situation to have been written, at least in a better way than it was. The Collector's only presence outside of the Omega 4 Relay is the Collector Ship. If we didn't get information from the Collector Ship, there's no other way we could have gotten through the Omega 4 Relay.

That's there's likely no other way to write that mission I can agree with since I don't think we have access to any engineers and Shepard's class is never recognized.  That we couldn't get information on how to nagivate through the relay unless during that encounter I'll say maybe and leave it at that.

Oh and, while Harbinger may not be the best villain ever, Sovereign wasn't exactly a genius either. Why not simply wait to possess Saren and you know, destroy the fleet attacking him? After killing them he could shift focus to Shepard. But overall Harbinger vs Sovereign is irrelevant to the discussion

True, Sovereign wasn't a genius, but that makes Harbinger look even worse if he can't surpass the initial vanguard that was taken out due to his own arrogance.  The Geth evolved quite a bit in 300 years.  The Reapers are at least 37 million + years old.  There shouldn't be a reason for the many lapses in judgement made on Harbinger's part.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

The Captain, First Officer, and Head of Security don't actually run the ship though; they aren't needed to run the Normandy's systems or what not. But like I said, it was designed so that you get to keep your squad. And I guess it's just a personal preference whether or not you'd want to keep your squad. Personally it would frustrate me to lose 10 of my 12 squadmates and not have access to them for a third of the suicide mission, but whatever. Besides, if Shepard only had 2 squadmates he never could have successfully gotten to the pods to free his other squad mates. So the game would end with Shepard being overwhelmed by the Collectors because he didn't have a diversion squad or an engineer to hack his doors for him

I'm not thinking of losing ten members, I'm thinking something like, two members.  Something akin to the suicide mission.  Pick a couple of people to stay on the Normandy.  Maybe the "Joker level" could unfold differently based on who you leave behind.  I dunno.  Something to make Shepard look less like he's getting acclimated to Cerberus' safety measures.

[111987]

I don't think EDI could take on the Reapers; the Reapers have multiple AI's, all of them probably more sophisticated than EDI. She would most likely be curb stomped if she tried to hack one. Hacking the Collector Ship would be easier to do though. Recall that EDI was only partially successful, and eventually was kicked out of the system (as evidenced by the Collector Ship powerful up successfully). EDI was only potent enough to temporarily hack the ship.

[Bourne Endeavor]

111987 wrote...

The plan was to capture Shepard in order to study him; the Collectors were
intrigued from his exposure to the Prothean beacons and the Thorian. This is
consistent with Harbinger’s other actions; it’s why he attempted to recover
Shepard’s body from the Shadow Broker, and also why on Horizon he kept
reiterating that they wanted to ‘preserve Shepard’s body, if possible’, etc…

If that was the primary objective, why did Harbinger have no qualms destroying the Normandy initially? It was sheer dumb luck Shepard was not incinerated in the explosion, like Presley or other crew aboard who were killed. We have already discussed how her body being in any way salvageable is a plot hole but even if they could do so. What exactly was Harbinger waiting on? Alchera was right next to their ship, there was no one to interfere with them. So why did the Collectors simply leave? Evidently, the were satisfied with Shepard dead.

You are speculating, especially with regards to the Thorian, as they were not even mentioned unless you spoke to Shiala.

They had no choice but to test the IFF. Why wouldn’t they? It’s not like they’d just install it and pray it works when
they travel through the Omega 4 Relay.

Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

Why did the whole squad leave? There’s
no in-game explanation, which can be seen as bad writing, but even from my
first playthrough I always just assumed they all left the ship while it was
undergoing tests because a). they didn’t want any interferences or distractions
while running a potentially dangerous test and . because assuming there were
complications, they wouldn’t want to lose the entire team.

No, that is the definition poor writing. An event devoid of substance is reduced to its basic form; a stoic plot device. Your interpretation of the scene is merely an attempt to fill in the gap, which is not the job of the reader. What makes this particularly egregious is how blatant it was.

But let’s be honest; it is a means for the player to keep in squad intact for the Suicide Mission. I think more people
would be pissed if you lost all but two of your squadmates that you had just
spent like 90% of the game recruiting and making loyal. So pick your poison
really. I’ll stick with having my squad intact.

How about we have a mission of some variety, which involves the entire squad and is logically explained? Alternatively, no one leaves the Normandy and we engage the collectors head on, while simultaneously attempting to save the crew; our choices might determine who and how many are taken, we could even have a squad mate or two captured.

Gameplay is not an excuse for plot holes. That is simply the writer being lazy.

Why do the Collectors board the ship?
Because they are still trying to capture Shepard! They were just unlucky that
he and the rest of the crew wasn’t on board when the tested it. After they
realized Shepard wasn’t there maybe they did intend on destroying the Normandy,
but EDI killed all the Collectors on board and then FTL’d out of there. They
weren’t going to blow up the ship with their own people still on board. More than likely after the Collectors had left the ship, they would have destroyed or captured it. EDI simply managed to outplay them.

EDIT: Sorry for the weird formatting

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Rovay wrote...

@Bourne Endeavor

How do we exacly know Harbinger didn't plan to destroy the Normandy? Perhaps he wanted to capture the crew and afterwards turn Normandy into space dust? And he couldn't do the second plan because Joker unshackled EDI and escaped before he could fire? Ever though about that?

Yes I did, ever consider the Collectors have only abducted whole colonies, at least until then? So what benefit derives from grabbing two dozen red shirts with no actual importance? Even if Shepard was aboard, half the crew is alien, and therefore irrelevant to them. Regardless, Harbinger pissed away his best opportunity to ruin everything Shepard has done while eliminating her in the process. They failed once, have a second go at it and failure again this time out of pure incompetency.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 30 août 2011 - 01:23 .

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Captain, First Officer, and Head of Security don't actually run the ship though; they aren't needed to run the Normandy's systems or what not. But like I said, it was designed so that you get to keep your squad. And I guess it's just a personal preference whether or not you'd want to keep your squad. Personally it would frustrate me to lose 10 of my 12 squadmates and not have access to them for a third of the suicide mission, but whatever. Besides, if Shepard only had 2 squadmates he never could have successfully gotten to the pods to free his other squad mates. So the game would end with Shepard being overwhelmed by the Collectors because he didn't have a diversion squad or an engineer to hack his doors for him

I'm not thinking of losing ten members, I'm thinking something like, two members.  Something akin to the suicide mission.  Pick a couple of people to stay on the Normandy.  Maybe the "Joker level" could unfold differently based on who you leave behind.  I dunno.  Something to make Shepard look less like he's getting acclimated to Cerberus' safety measures.

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. I agree, that would add a lot of drama to the Suicide Mission. That's a really good idea. I think you run into a similar problem to everyone leaving though; why would say, Samara and Thane stay on the ship to oversee things while everyone else left? Regardless it's a great idea

[Iakus]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

I am reminded of that "abridged ME2 "blog from back when...

[Shepard]: Ok, we’ve just plugged a device made from Reaper technology into our
ship. We really have no idea what this will do, so we’re on full alert until…

[Bioware]: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Shepard]: Road trip!

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Harbringer does seem to be sending mixed signals in what he wants with Shepard, doesn't he?

Modifié par iakus, 30 août 2011 - 01:31 .

[111987]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

111987 wrote...

The plan was to capture Shepard in order to study him; the Collectors were
intrigued from his exposure to the Prothean beacons and the Thorian. This is
consistent with Harbinger’s other actions; it’s why he attempted to recover
Shepard’s body from the Shadow Broker, and also why on Horizon he kept
reiterating that they wanted to ‘preserve Shepard’s body, if possible’, etc…

If that was the primary objective, why did Harbinger have no qualms destroying the Normandy initially? It was sheer dumb luck Shepard was not incinerated in the explosion, like Presley or other crew aboard who were killed. We have already discussed how her body being in any way salvageable is a plot hole but even if they could do so. What exactly was Harbinger waiting on? Alchera was right next to their ship, there was no one to interfere with them. So why did the Collectors simply leave? Evidently, the were satisfied with Shepard dead.

You are speculating, especially with regards to the Thorian, as they were not even mentioned unless you spoke to Shiala.

They had no choice but to test the IFF. Why wouldn’t they? It’s not like they’d just install it and pray it works when
they travel through the Omega 4 Relay.

Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

Why did the whole squad leave? There’s
no in-game explanation, which can be seen as bad writing, but even from my
first playthrough I always just assumed they all left the ship while it was
undergoing tests because a). they didn’t want any interferences or distractions
while running a potentially dangerous test and . because assuming there were
complications, they wouldn’t want to lose the entire team.

No, that is the definition poor writing. An event devoid of substance is reduced to its basic form; a stoic plot device. Your interpretation of the scene is merely an attempt to fill in the gap, which is not the job of the reader. What makes this particularly egregious is how blatant it was.

But let’s be honest; it is a means for the player to keep in squad intact for the Suicide Mission. I think more people
would be pissed if you lost all but two of your squadmates that you had just
spent like 90% of the game recruiting and making loyal. So pick your poison
really. I’ll stick with having my squad intact.

How about we have a mission of some variety, which involves the entire squad and is logically explained? Alternatively, no one leaves the Normandy and we engage the collectors head on, while simultaneously attempting to save the crew; our choices might determine who and how many are taken, we could even have a squad mate or two captured.

Gameplay is not an excuse for plot holes. That is simply the writer being lazy.

Why do the Collectors board the ship?
Because they are still trying to capture Shepard! They were just unlucky that
he and the rest of the crew wasn’t on board when the tested it. After they
realized Shepard wasn’t there maybe they did intend on destroying the Normandy,
but EDI killed all the Collectors on board and then FTL’d out of there. They
weren’t going to blow up the ship with their own people still on board. More than likely after the Collectors had left the ship, they would have destroyed or captured it. EDI simply managed to outplay them.

EDIT: Sorry for the weird formatting

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Rovay wrote...

@Bourne Endeavor

How do we exacly know Harbinger didn't plan to destroy the Normandy? Perhaps he wanted to capture the crew and afterwards turn Normandy into space dust? And he couldn't do the second plan because Joker unshackled EDI and escaped before he could fire? Ever though about that?

Yes I did, ever consider the Collectors have only abducted whole colonies, at least until then? So what benefit derives from grabbing two dozen red shirts with no actual importance? Even if Shepard was aboard, half the crew is alien, and therefore irrelevant to them. Regardless, Harbinger pissed away his best opportunity to ruin everything Shepard has done while eliminating her in the process. They failed once, have a second go at it and failure again this time out of pure incompetency.

The Collector Ship plan was to kill and capture Shepard. The
destruction of the Normandy plan was to kill Shepard, and then retrieve his
body. But I admit, it is a valid question; why did they simply attack the
Normandy instead of trying to capture Shepard if they wanted his body? Because,
as you say, they were simply content with him dead. However we do know from one
of the comics that the Collectors were always interested in retrieving his
body.

And actually I wasn’t speculating about why the Collectors
wanted Shepard. I got that from dialogue that was cut from the game. I
understand how it could have seemed like I brought that out of thin air though,
so here’s the source



In regards to the IFF, I assume you're saying they should have tested on something else first? I suppose they could have, but that wouldn't have really helped. It had to be installed on the Normandy eventually, and when that happened the Collectors would have come for them. The foolish thing wasn't that they didn't test the IFF on something else first; it's just a signal. It's not like it would have blown up the ship. The foolish thing was that they didn't 'scrub' it, which is mentioned explicitly in-game as an oversight.

If the squad was on board the Normandy when the Collectors attacked, the squad would easily fought them off and thus there would be no sense of urgency to go through the Omega 4 Relay. In my opinion, that would weaken the story. You're right, there isn't an in game explanation for why the whole squad went on the shuttle for the mission.

In this case, gameplay should take precendence over story. Like I said before, your options are unrealistically get the squad off the Normandy for the IFF testing, or lose everyone but two people, which would make completeting the Suicide Mission impossible. Is it great writing to have the squad leave without an in-game explanation? Yes. Is the alternative any better? Not all.

[Sgt Stryker]

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

[111987]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

Nothing's wrong with it. But that sure seems like a lot of work to create a whole new misison involving almost the entire squad JUST to justify them leaving the ship...

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

Nothing's wrong with it. But that sure seems like a lot of work to create a whole new misison involving almost the entire squad JUST to justify them leaving the ship...

This misson could have happend off-screen. All they needed was a reason why all 13 members needed to leave the ship when this has never happend before.

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

Nothing's wrong with it. But that sure seems like a lot of work to create a whole new misison involving almost the entire squad JUST to justify them leaving the ship...

This misson could have happend off-screen. All they needed was a reason why all 13 members needed to leave the ship when this has never happend before.

Then people would be complaining that they shorted us out of a mission and accuse THAT of being bad writing

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

Nothing's wrong with it. But that sure seems like a lot of work to create a whole new misison involving almost the entire squad JUST to justify them leaving the ship...

.

This misson could have happend off-screen. All they needed was a reason why all 13 members needed to leave the ship when this has never happend before.

Then people would be complaining that they shorted us out of a mission and accuse THAT of being bad writing

Probably, but it would still be better than what they gave us. Again, all we needed was a reason

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 30 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[111987]

I agree. A reason would have been nice. It personally didn't effect my enjoyment of the game, but to each their own.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

I am reminded of that "abridged ME2 "blog from back when...

[Shepard]: Ok, we’ve just plugged a device made from Reaper technology into our
ship. We really have no idea what this will do, so we’re on full alert until…

[Bioware]: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Shepard]: Road trip!

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Harbringer does seem to be sending mixed signals in what he wants with Shepard, doesn't he?

Not really, they can bring Shep back from the dead. They have the tech, look a Seran.  2 bullet in the head and they brought his body back alive.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Not really, they can bring Shep back from the dead. They have the tech, look a Seran.  2 bullet in the head and they brought his body back alive.

Cerberus can bring him back sure.  And I do suspect Reaper tech was involved in that (though there's no real proof of that)  But do we even know that that's what they want?

Plus Saren was animated by his cybernetics to become a sock puppet for Sovereign.  That's hardly "alive".  At best he was a turian-style Collector.

In addition, while Harbringer may want Shepard, he seems unclear as to alive or dead.  And if dead, what condition.  I mean, the numerous ways Shepard could have been utterly destroyed or otherwise rendered nonviable from the destruction of the Normandy has often been used to question the whole concept of the Lazarus Project.  How much studying could the Collectors have done to a corpse who's tissues have been destroyed by fire, vacuum, radiation, freezing, etc?   

[111987]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Not really, they can bring Shep back from the dead. They have the tech, look a Seran.  2 bullet in the head and they brought his body back alive.

Cerberus can bring him back sure.  And I do suspect Reaper tech was involved in that (though there's no real proof of that)  But do we even know that that's what they want?

Plus Saren was animated by his cybernetics to become a sock puppet for Sovereign.  That's hardly "alive".  At best he was a turian-style Collector.

In addition, while Harbringer may want Shepard, he seems unclear as to alive or dead.  And if dead, what condition.  I mean, the numerous ways Shepard could have been utterly destroyed or otherwise rendered nonviable from the destruction of the Normandy has often been used to question the whole concept of the Lazarus Project.  How much studying could the Collectors have done to a corpse who's tissues have been destroyed by fire, vacuum, radiation, freezing, etc?   

Harbinger definitely wants him dead. He wants his body preserved, if possible, but he wants him dead.

[100k]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

What was wrong with 100k's suggestion of having the Normandy receive a fake distress signal from a sizable human colony shortly after the IFF installation, then having a large part of the squad leave in the shuttle (on an ACTUAL mission, this time), only to discover that the signal was in fact a fake and there is nothing out of the ordinary at that colony? Once they get back to the Normandy, they find an empty ship, with no one but Joker and EDI left on board.

Nothing's wrong with it. But that sure seems like a lot of work to create a whole new misison involving almost the entire squad JUST to justify them leaving the ship...

.

This misson could have happend off-screen. All they needed was a reason why all 13 members needed to leave the ship when this has never happend before.

Then people would be complaining that they shorted us out of a mission and accuse THAT of being bad writing

Probably, but it would still be better than what they gave us. Again, all we needed was a reason

It could've just been a cutscene. 

[Notlikeyoucare]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

I am reminded of that "abridged ME2 "blog from back when...

[Shepard]: Ok, we’ve just plugged a device made from Reaper technology into our
ship. We really have no idea what this will do, so we’re on full alert until…

[Bioware]: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Shepard]: Road trip!

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Harbringer does seem to be sending mixed signals in what he wants with Shepard, doesn't he?

Not really, they can bring Shep back from the dead. They have the tech, look a Seran.  2 bullet in the head and they brought his body back alive.

But it was not Saren. It was his body upgraded with implants that was controlled by Sovereign: a mindless puppet, like the Collectors Besides I thought Cerberus were the ones who could make a body and all of its organs magically rematerialise through wizardry, not the Collectors.

But why would they want to bring Shepard back to life when they already killed him? This is one of my biggest problems with the story:The writers are playing musical chairs with the Collectors motivations.

Do they want to kill Shepard or capture him? They killed him at first, but because he was brought back by a completely different organisation they now, and only now, are interested in capturing him. Ok, if so, why didn't they just fly away once he boarded their ship? Why allow EDI to form a bridge BEFORE you spring the trap? Why were they trying to kill Shepard that whole time?

And more importantly why? What are the Collectors motivations? What makes Shepard worth capturing more then anyone else? What makes him so special?

These aren't rhetorical questions, we need to know these things. The answer to all of these questions of course, is poor writing.

This isn't a natural progression of story, a character swap: this is a REWRITE. They are rewriting the game in the game we're playing.

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


Yes, test the IFF. What said however was don't integrate it into your super advanced warship when you have no idea of the potential ramifications. It could cause any number of unforeseen problems, one examplecould pertain to the IFF allowed Harbinger to take full access. We have no idea what this thing might do. If I handed you a piece of software and boasted it would make your computer light speeds faster. Would you honestly take me at my word?

"Just install it and pray it works" is exactly what Shepard does.

I am reminded of that "abridged ME2 "blog from back when...

[Shepard]: Ok, we’ve just plugged a device made from Reaper technology into our
ship. We really have no idea what this will do, so we’re on full alert until…

[Bioware]: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Shepard]: Road trip!

I reiterate again, Harbinger had no qualms at the onset of the game destroying the Normandy, nor was any attempt made to recover Shepard's body, unless you wish to claim the Collectors were inept and overlooked her. Earlier you quote Harbinger saying "Preserve Shepard's body, if possible", with the operative words in that statement being "if possible. The scenario depicted in my example equates to Harbinger winning. Had Shepard been aboard, their only threat would have been eliminated. Perhaps Shepard would have been blown away from the Normandy again, like before. Total victory supersedes research as the form is the end result while the latter is merely a hopeful means to reaching that conclusion. Capturing Shepard accomplishes nothing, not when you can simply win outright.

Harbringer does seem to be sending mixed signals in what he wants with Shepard, doesn't he?

Not really, they can bring Shep back from the dead. They have the tech, look a Seran.  2 bullet in the head and they brought his body back alive.

But it was not Saren. It was his body upgraded with implants that was controlled by Sovereign: a mindless puppet, like the Collectors Besides I thought Cerberus were the ones who could make a body and all of its organs magically rematerialise through wizardry, not the Collectors.

But why would they want to bring Shepard back to life when they already killed him? This is one of my biggest problems with the story:The writers are playing musical chairs with the Collectors motivations.

Do they want to kill Shepard or capture him? They killed him at first, but because he was brought back by a completely different organisation they now, and only now, are interested in capturing him. Ok, if so, why didn't they just fly away once he boarded their ship? Why allow EDI to form a bridge BEFORE you spring the trap? Why were they trying to kill Shepard that whole time?

And more importantly why? What are the Collectors motivations? What makes Shepard worth capturing more then anyone else? What makes him so special?

These aren't rhetorical questions, we need to know these things. The answer to all of these questions of course, is poor writing.

This isn't a natural progression of story, a character swap: this is a REWRITE. They are rewriting the game in the game we're playing.

The Collectors wanted Shepard's body to study it for genetic abnormalities brought on by exposure to the Prothean Beacons and the Thorian. Admittedly the dialogue confirming this was cut, which makes no sense to me. It doesn't make it good writing, but if you are truly curious, that is why.

www.youtube.com/watch

The thing is, this could very well be brought up in Mass Effect 3. Not all questions are SUPPOSED to be answered in the second part of a trilogy. It could be very significant, which is why they cut that dialogue. Or maybe it's not. Either way, it's too early to judge. If they don't mention it in Mass Effect 3, then yes it is bad writing.

They didn't fly away as soon as he boarded because they had to powerup the ship again. I don't know what you mean by letting EDI form a bridge, so I can't discuss that...sorry.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

The Collectors wanted Shepard's body to study it for genetic abnormalities brought on by exposure to the Prothean Beacons and the Thorian. Admittedly the dialogue confirming this was cut, which makes no sense to me. It doesn't make it good writing, but if you are truly curious, that is why.

www.youtube.com/watch

The thing is, this could very well be brought up in Mass Effect 3. Not all questions are SUPPOSED to be answered in the second part of a trilogy. It could be very significant, which is why they cut that dialogue. Or maybe it's not. Either way, it's too early to judge. If they don't mention it in Mass Effect 3, then yes it is bad writing.

They didn't fly away as soon as he boarded because they had to powerup the ship again. I don't know what you mean by letting EDI form a bridge, so I can't discuss that...sorry.

Assuming that cut content can be considered canon (believe me, I'd like this to be) some revelations should still be made.

Empire Strikes Back would have made little sense if it was never revealed that Vader was Luke's father after all. Why all this effort to capture one guy?

That's what we're left with in ME2.  What does it all mean?

[111987]

Agreed, it needs to be addressed in game. It really boggles the mind as to why they would cut that piece of dialogue...unless they changed their reason for it? Who knows. In my opinion it doesn't become bad writing until Mass Effect 3 shows up and doesn't address it all. Others will and do disagree with me, and that's fine too.

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

Agreed, it needs to be addressed in game. It really boggles the mind as to why they would cut that piece of dialogue...unless they changed their reason for it? Who knows. In my opinion it doesn't become bad writing until Mass Effect 3 shows up and doesn't address it all. Others will and do disagree with me, and that's fine too.

The thing is, the Collectors were more of a side show. We have defeated them, they have no more relevance to the plot. Mass Effect 3 is about fighting a galactic war against the Reapers. They're here to kill every organic being, I doubt they will give a crap about Shepard and Prothean beacons. This is however, speculation on my part.

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Agreed, it needs to be addressed in game. It really boggles the mind as to why they would cut that piece of dialogue...unless they changed their reason for it? Who knows. In my opinion it doesn't become bad writing until Mass Effect 3 shows up and doesn't address it all. Others will and do disagree with me, and that's fine too.

The thing is, the Collectors were more of a side show. We have defeated them, they have no more relevance to the plot. Mass Effect 3 is about fighting a galactic war against the Reapers. They're here to kill every organic being, I doubt they will give a crap about Shepard and Prothean beacons. This is however, speculation on my part.

It is of course possible that the Reapers will no longer have any interest in Shepard. As Harbinger says in Arrival, he "has become an annoyance", which is a mighty high compliment from a Reaper, who considers us to be dust.

On the other hand they might be even MORE interested in Shepard now.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

The Collectors wanted Shepard's body to study it for genetic abnormalities brought on by exposure to the Prothean Beacons and the Thorian. Admittedly the dialogue confirming this was cut, which makes no sense to me. It doesn't make it good writing, but if you are truly curious, that is why.

www.youtube.com/watch

The thing is, this could very well be brought up in Mass Effect 3. Not all questions are SUPPOSED to be answered in the second part of a trilogy. It could be very significant, which is why they cut that dialogue. Or maybe it's not. Either way, it's too early to judge. If they don't mention it in Mass Effect 3, then yes it is bad writing.

They didn't fly away as soon as he boarded because they had to powerup the ship again. I don't know what you mean by letting EDI form a bridge, so I can't discuss that...sorry.

For the love of all that is holy in this world...WHY did they take this dialogue out of the game?