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[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

They lured Shepard to a series of platforms suspended like a hundred or more feet in the air, where he would have been trapped without EDI. It was a great trap that was foiled by unforseeable circumstances.

Not a great trap at all. Where were all the collectors? Why wasn't the path back bloced by en entire devision or a blockade? Why wasn't the shuttle blown up? Why allow Shep to get in that deep (and to the central terminal) in the firt place?

Handing a character the idiot ball doesn't work in a serious story. If it's a parody or comedy, sure. But not in a serious story.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

So you think it was a stupid move. Noted. However, since thinking that the Reapers Were made retarded for plot convienance because the writers didn't know how the write a compelling story does make something a plot hole.

Fixed.

You are welcome to your opinion... still does not make it a plot hole.

[Darkelefantos1]

Guldhun2 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
The collector trap is also not a plot
hole. There is nothing in the story that says it would be impossible for
the collectors to lay such a trap. Just because you feel they laid a
very bad trap and handled it in a stupid way does not mean this event
could not take place. Unlikely events or unanswered questions are not
plot holes.

Collectors(Reapers) luring Shepard in a ship by leading him directly to a command console so he can hack it to get information goes against character logic. AIs are pretty common in the galaxy, so not expecting one even though they used the Geth, an AI army made by one of the races in the Galaxy is retarted.

So i'll admit,if it's lore and cannon that Reapers = retarted -> Then yes it's not a plot hole.

Well they did expect him to die and never get away with the info anyway. But for gameplay and story reasons, that woulda been...uhh... stupid.

[SpiffySquee]

Guldhun2 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
Goes against what character logic? You know nothing about them. How can you pretend you can say something is out of character when you have no idea what their character is?

So you think it was a stupid move. Noted. However, since thinking the Reapers are retarded does not make something a plot hole, I guess you agree none of these are plot holes. So I'm still waiting... point out a significant plot hole in ME2.

Reapers are retarted now? Ok then, ME3 is going to be pretty boring.

say what you want, you still have yet to tell us of one of these huge plot holes you keep going on about.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...
Also, in regards to story vs gameplay; I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you. Gameplay ALWAYS takes precedence over story. Gameplay is ultimately the reason games are made. A strong story supplements and can seriously enhance a game's enjoyment or replayability factor, but at the end of the day, gameplay is what matters. There is a reason every game reviewer preferred ME2 to ME1; the gameplay was drastically better in ME2, even if the story wasn't as strong. I don't think you're going to say that dozens of game reviewers are just full of hot air right?

I dunno. After DA2 and it's scores I'm not sure anymore...

You're treating gamepaly and story as two competing things, thinking that one MUST be sacrificed to facilitate the other. That is incorrect. Gameplay and story are only in conflict if you let them be. You either suck at writing or suck at designing the game if you can't make them work together in harmony.

i wouldn't say that gameplay and story are competing against one another. And I definitely agree that if you can make them mesh flawlessly, it should be done. And for the most part in Mass Effect 2, they don't conflict with one another. But for the sake of enjoyable gameplay, you have to do things or allow things that the story by itself wouldn't allow. Take for example the death of the squad leader in the suicide mission; they die from getting shot in the stomach? I've seen my squadmates survive a lot worse than that in gameplay. You have to make certain allowances for gameplay.

I agree that an in-game reason for the shuttle ride would have been nice and and helped with the immersion factor games like this are supposed to have. What I'm arguing is that I don't think the idea of the squadmates being abducted by the Collectors is a good idea.

Meh.. Squadmate deaths were both bad gamepaly mechanics and bad writing. WTF does their loyality mission haev to do with their survival???

Agreed, in some cases the loyalty of the squad mates should have been irrelevant.

Engineer: This one is relevant. An engineer who's mind isn't completely focused on the job wouldn't have been able to handle the stress of the situation. And when I say completely focused, I mean that there are no unconscious things affecting their state of mind.

Biotic Specialist: Same thing as the engineer

Squad Leader: This one could work if you see it as a focused and skilled squad leader would have led the squad more tactically, and thus had more shielding left when they got shot in the stomach. But that might be a stretch, idk.

The one that does NOT work is the unloyal squadmates being crushed by those metal beams after the final boss fight. That was just silly.

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

So you think it was a stupid move. Noted. However, since thinking that the Reapers Were made retarded for plot convienance because the writers didn't know how the write a compelling story does make something a plot hole.

Fixed.

You are welcome to your opinion... still does not make it a plot hole.

It's Bad writing and storytelling an guess were that will result in eventually: multipl Retcons, several inconsistancies, Painfull logic, general character incompentance and yes plot holes, if we don't know why B came after A, or why B happend at all it's a plothole.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

They lured Shepard to a series of platforms suspended like a hundred or more feet in the air, where he would have been trapped without EDI. It was a great trap that was foiled by unforseeable circumstances.

Not a great trap at all. Where were all the collectors? Why wasn't the path back bloced by en entire devision or a blockade? Why wasn't the shuttle blown up? Why allow Shep to get in that deep (and to the central terminal) in the firt place?

Handing a character the idiot ball doesn't work in a serious story. If it's a parody or comedy, sure. But not in a serious story.

Well they couldn't have hid the entire Collector Ship population in that room; there was no cover or place to hide except for those pods, and Shepard would have noticed if there were thousands of Collectors hiding in those pods and not have entered the room. Plus, a ship that big most likely requires a lot of Collectors to run it. They were also dealing with an unexpected AI attack.

The path was blocked by a large amount of Collectors and a Praetorian. I'm sure more Collectors were on their way, but it is a big ship.The shuttle wasn't blown up because it didn't need to be blown up; they thought they had Shepard trapped. Why destroy something if you can salvage it? Also, there weren't any Collectors in that area to blow up the shuttle so it's a moot point.

The terminal EDI hacked was not the central command terminal. That would be wherever the pilot is, and we were definitely not in the cockpit of the Collector Ship. Why not trap Shepard earlier? Once again, trapping him a hundred or more feet in the air with scarcely any cover is more effective than trapping him in a single room.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

So you think it was a stupid move. Noted. However, since thinking that the Reapers Were made retarded for plot convienance because the writers didn't know how the write a compelling story does make something a plot hole.

Fixed.

You are welcome to your opinion... still does not make it a plot hole.

It's Bad writing and storytelling an guess were that will result in eventually: multipl Retcons, several inconsistancies, Painfull logic, general character incompentance and yes plot holes, if we don't know why B came after A, or why B happend at all it's a plothole.

So... there are no real plot holes now... but there might be in the future? fantastic argument you have there... except that can be applied to any game currently in development... at all...

[Whatever42]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not a great trap at all. Where were all the collectors? Why wasn't the path back bloced by en entire devision or a blockade? Why wasn't the shuttle blown up? Why allow Shep to get in that deep (and to the central terminal) in the firt place?

Handing a character the idiot ball doesn't work in a serious story. If it's a parody or comedy, sure. But not in a serious story.

You would assign a whole division to capture 3 people? Really? So you think assigned perhaps ~40 soldiers and some big-ass monsters to capture 3 people is not a serious ambush?

They allowed him to get that deep because they thought they could seal him in. Remember, they wanted Shep in one piece so they could do some evil things to him. When they realized that the EDI AI was foiling them, they came up with a back up plan of infecting her.

Sounds pretty clever to me.

There are real plot holes in ME2 but people are trying too hard.

[Guldhun2]

For the twentieth time :

AIS ARE COMMON IN THE GALAXY. AND THEY ARE ONLY SEMI-BANNED IN COUNCIL SPACE.


Notice how i said semi-banned, because the council allows 4 companies to do AI development and research in council space.

[Guldhun2]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

You would assign a whole division to capture 3 people? Really? So you think assigned perhaps ~40 soldiers and some big-ass monsters to capture 3 people is not a serious ambush?

They allowed him to get that deep because they thought they could seal him in. Remember, they wanted Shep in one piece so they could do some evil things to him. When they realized that the EDI AI was foiling them, they came up with a back up plan of infecting her.

Sounds pretty clever to me.

There are real plot holes in ME2 but people are trying too hard.

Shepard has killed hundreds, if not thousands of Geth. He killed numerous reaper creations (husks). He killed armies of mercs. He killed Saren. He stopped Sovereign. And many many many more. 

And you are going to capture him of by sending ~40 soldiers and a big ass monster?

[SpiffySquee]

Guldhun2 wrote...

For the twentieth time :

AIS ARE COMMON IN THE GALAXY. AND THEY ARE ONLY SEMI-BANNED IN COUNCIL SPACE.


Notice how i said semi-banned, because the council allows 4 companies to do AI development and research in council space.

Common in the galaxy? Source? Show us all these AIs.  The council allows 4 companies to conduct  limited  research into AI, it does not allow anyone outside of those companies to use AI in any way shape or form. So, yes they are banned. Normandy is the only ship in Council or Terminus space that we know about that has an AI. That fact is a very closely guarded secret that very few people know. Yet you think it is stupid that the Collectors did not magically know that the Normandy had something that NO OTHER SHIP has? Meta gaming is a wonderful thing I suppose...

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 30 août 2011 - 03:38 .

[111987]

Guldhun2 wrote...

For the twentieth time :

AIS ARE COMMON IN THE GALAXY. AND THEY ARE ONLY SEMI-BANNED IN COUNCIL SPACE.


Notice how i said semi-banned, because the council allows 4 companies to do AI development and research in council space.

I'm seriously not understanding where you're getting the idea that AI's are commonin the galaxy. Other than the Geth I mean.

And you still have not addressed the points that a). ship-based AI are unheard of, and . Reaper-based AI are unheard of. The Collectors could NOT have expected or prepared for that. Why would they? Even EDI, a Reaper-based AI, was tasked to capacity trying to thwart the Collectors. Even if they somehow knew the Normandy had an AI (which is ridiculous), they couldn't have expected one to have been as sophisticated as EDI.

[111987]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

You would assign a whole division to capture 3 people? Really? So you think assigned perhaps ~40 soldiers and some big-ass monsters to capture 3 people is not a serious ambush?

They allowed him to get that deep because they thought they could seal him in. Remember, they wanted Shep in one piece so they could do some evil things to him. When they realized that the EDI AI was foiling them, they came up with a back up plan of infecting her.

Sounds pretty clever to me.

There are real plot holes in ME2 but people are trying too hard.

Shepard has killed hundreds, if not thousands of Geth. He killed numerous reaper creations (husks). He killed armies of mercs. He killed Saren. He stopped Sovereign. And many many many more. 

And you are going to capture him of by sending ~40 soldiers and a big ass monster?

No, you're going to capture him by suspending him a hundred feet in the air with no possible escape route. The 40+ soldiers and Praetorian were all the forces they could muster once EDI mucked up their plan.

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

So you think it was a stupid move. Noted. However, since thinking that the Reapers Were made retarded for plot convienance because the writers didn't know how the write a compelling story does make something a plot hole.

Fixed.

You are welcome to your opinion... still does not make it a plot hole.

It's Bad writing and storytelling an guess were that will result in eventually: multipl Retcons, several inconsistancies, Painfull logic, general character incompentance and yes plot holes, if we don't know why B came after A, or why B happend at all it's a plothole.

So... there are no real plot holes now... but there might be in the future? fantastic argument you have there... except that can be applied to any game currently in development... at all...

Here you're just completely missing point, really i didn't think it would be this hard.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
It's Bad writing and storytelling an guess were that will result in eventually: multipl Retcons, several inconsistancies, Painfull logic, general character incompentance and yes plot holes, if we don't know why B came after A, or why B happend at all it's a plothole.

So... there are no real plot holes now... but there might be in the future? fantastic argument you have there... except that can be applied to any game currently in development... at all...

Here you're just completely missing point, really i didn't think it would be this hard.

Missing what point? You claim that this "bad writing WILL make plot holes, retcons and inconsistency" Will... as in, not right now, in the future, yet to come. Apparently you can't find a serious plot hole in the game we have, so you can only speculate that there might be some in the next game. I say might, because unless you can read the future you have no idea what will be in the next game. This could be said about any unfinished game.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 30 août 2011 - 03:46 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Guldhun2 wrote...

For the twentieth time :

AIS ARE COMMON IN THE GALAXY. AND THEY ARE ONLY SEMI-BANNED IN COUNCIL SPACE.


Notice how i said semi-banned, because the council allows 4 companies to do AI development and research in council space.

I highly doubt that this guy has the same capabilities as EDI, seeing as how EDI was reverse-engineered from Sovereign's tech. Not all AI are created equal.

[littlezack]

AIs can't be all that common. In the course of two games, you've only come across, like, three. Even people like Mordin and Thane, who are very experienced and worldly, are quite surprised to hear EDI when she comes on.

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
It's Bad writing and storytelling an guess were that will result in eventually: multipl Retcons, several inconsistancies, Painfull logic, general character incompentance and yes plot holes, if we don't know why B came after A, or why B happend at all it's a plothole.

So... there are no real plot holes now... but there might be in the future? fantastic argument you have there... except that can be applied to any game currently in development... at all...

Here you're just completely missing point, really i didn't think it would be this hard.

Missing what point? You claim that this "bad writing WILL make plot holes, retcons and inconsistency" Will... as in, not right now, in the future, yet to come. Apparently you can't find a serious plot hole in the game we have, so you can only speculate that there might be some in the next game. I say might, because unless you can read the future you have no idea what will be in the next game. This could be said about any unfinished game.

Bad writing will results into plot holes, that's pretty common, and it did allready in Mass effect 2,   

But let me clarify this just for you:

The the bad writing of Mass Effect 2 resulted into multiple plot holes

That's the simplist way i can put it, what's not to understand here?

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bad writing will results into plot holes, that's pretty common, and it did allready in Mass effect 2,   

But let me clarify this just for you:

The the bad writing of Mass Effect 2 resulted into multiple plot holes
[/i][i]
That's the simplist way i can put it, what's not to understand here?

And let me put this as simple as I can. Show me. Show me one Major plot hole in Mass Effect 2. Not something you just think is bad writing. Not something that you felt was stupid. Show me a plot hole. A REAL plot hole that matters to the story. I admit a few minor ones exist, but nothing that has a serious impact on the story. 

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 30 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

MrDizaztar wrote...

My thoughts exactly.

[Guldhun2]

SpiffySquee wrote...
Common in the galaxy? Source? Show us all these AIs.  The council allows 4 companies to conduct  limited  research into AI, it does not allow anyone outside of those companies to use AI in any way shape or form. So, yes they are banned. Normandy is the only ship in Council or Terminus space that we know about that has an AI. That fact is a very closely guarded secret that very few people know. Yet you think it is stupid that the Collectors did not magically know that the Normandy had something that NO OTHER SHIP has? Meta gaming is a wonderful thing I suppose...

1. Common in the galaxy?

• Yes, you have Geth running around everywhere.
• There's 4 companies who research and develop AIs in council space
• There's no ban on them outside of council space, so anyone can make any AI he/she pleases
• You have the alliance getting caught with an experimental AI.
• You stop an AI on the citadel, the center of council space.

  2. Source?

• Mass Effect 1
• Mass Effect 2
• Mass Effect wikia. link

3 .Show us all these AIs.

• See 1

4.The council allows 4 companies to conduct  limited  research into AI, it
does not allow anyone outside of those companies to use AI in any way
shape or form.

• Wrong, they are allowed to research and DEVELOP AIs. And according to wikia, it's not "limited" research. And outside council space any company can make all the AI it wants.

5. So, yes they are banned.

• Drugs is also banned in most of the world. Yet that doesn't stop drugs does it?

6. Normandy is the only ship in Council or Terminus space that we know about that has an AI.

• Is it? All i got in the game was a comment from EDI saying "We are suspect". We didn't know Rachni were still around in ME1 to...until you came across a small army of them on Noveria. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. If you know you're enemy is capable of making AIs, then it's best to assume they'll use it.

7. That fact is a very closely guarded secret that very few people know.

• So what? There could be dozens of ships with AIs we don't know of. Hell, maybe even the Geth ships are AI platforms.

8. Yet you think it is stupid that the Collectors did not magically know that the Normandy had something that NO OTHER SHIP has?

• Does it matter? All ships have firewalls anyway, so they must suspect someone is going the try to hack them. They even lost Sovereign with all that AI data on board, why wouldn't they assume they use it to fight the giant robotic overlords? If you lose something which holds data to an enemy, you assume they will use it. Unless ofcourse like you said "Reapers could be retarted", only with more words.

9. Meta gaming is a wonderful thing I suppose...

• I know, you do it all the time. 

Modifié par Guldhun2, 30 août 2011 - 04:23 .

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

If that is true show me. Show me one major plot hole. Don't say that there might be some later down the road.

What do you define as a 'Major plot hole' , if you mean that it should have a large impact on the Progression of the story, while that's almost nothing, considering the entire plot progression is totally random anyway, and shepard is just send out to do something in the mean time i guess you can see that as major flaw in writing and a plothole,

Really the only thing that remain are the main areas within the plot  

-The Entire premise .
-Talks to TIM.
-Freedoms progress.
-Going to Horizion
-The collector 'trap'
-Second Collector, Reaper ship.
-The shutle scene.
-Going through the Relay.
-Baby terminator.

Those are the major plot points have Plotholes in them, or they are a plothole by themselfs.
Also let's not forget the two bases of the entire plot.

-TIM and Shepard's 'plan'.
-Collector harbinger 'plan'.

And if you wan't explanations i suggest you watch this:

www.youtube.com/watch

and if that's not good enough then this:

www.youtube.com/watch

[SpiffySquee]

Guldhun2 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
Common in the galaxy? Source? Show us all these AIs.  The council allows 4 companies to conduct  limited  research into AI, it does not allow anyone outside of those companies to use AI in any way shape or form. So, yes they are banned. Normandy is the only ship in Council or Terminus space that we know about that has an AI. That fact is a very closely guarded secret that very few people know. Yet you think it is stupid that the Collectors did not magically know that the Normandy had something that NO OTHER SHIP has? Meta gaming is a wonderful thing I suppose...

1. Common in the galaxy?

• Yes, you have Geth running around everywhere.
• There's 4 companies who research and develop AIs in council space
• There's no ban on them outside of council space, so anyone can make any AI he/she pleases
• You have the alliance getting caught with an experimental AI.
• You stop an AI on the citadel, the center of council space.

  2. Source?

• Mass Effect 1
• Mass Effect 2
• Mass Effect wikia. link

3 .Show us all these AIs.

• See 1

4.The council allows 4 companies to conduct  limited  research into AI, it
does not allow anyone outside of those companies to use AI in any way
shape or form.

• Wrong, they are allowed to research and DEVELOP AIs. And according to wikia, it's not "limited" research. And outside council space any company can make all the AI it wants.

5. So, yes they are banned.

• Drugs is also banned in most of the world. Yet that doesn't stop drugs does it?

6. Normandy is the only ship in Council or Terminus space that we know about that has an AI.

• Is it? All i got in the game was a comment from EDI saying "We are suspect". We didn't know Rachni were still around in ME1 to...until you came across a small army of them on Noveria. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. If you know you're enemy is capable of making AIs, then it's best to assume they'll use it.

7. That fact is a very closely guarded secret that very few people know.

• So what? There could be dozens of ships with AIs we don't know of. Hell, maybe even the Geth ships are AI platforms.

8. Yet you think it is stupid that the Collectors did not magically know that the Normandy had something that NO OTHER SHIP has?

• Does it matter? All ships have firewalls anyway, so they must suspect someone is going the try to hack them. They even lost Sovereign with all that AI data on board, why wouldn't they assume they use it to fight the giant robotic overlords? If you lose something which holds data to an enemy, you assume they will use it. Unless ofcourse like you said "Reapers could be retarted", only with more words.

9. Meta gaming is a wonderful thing I suppose...

• I know, you do it all the time. 

You didn't show anything. You said geth have them... The Normandy is not geth. You say that other people might possibly have them. There is no codex entry or dialog, or anything, that shows a single non-geth ship in the entire galaxy that has an AI other than the Normandy. Period. You have nothing to back up your claim other than your pure speculation. There is no proof that AIs are common place on Ships, so your argument that the collectors should have planed for something you have no proof they should even know about is silly.

And I'm still waiting for one of these important plot holes you keep going on about, or have you admitted they don't exist?

[111987]

Reaper based AI>any AI the Collectors could have prepared for, as I have stated before.