6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Blah blah blah. More smudboy BS and lit crit snottiness. Whatever.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

If that is true show me. Show me one major plot hole. Don't say that there might be some later down the road.

What do you define as a 'Major plot hole' , if you mean that it should have a large impact on the Progression of the story, while that's almost nothing, considering the entire plot progression is totally random anyway, and shepard is just send out to do something in the mean time i guess you can see that as major flaw in writing and a plothole,

Really the only thing that remain are the main areas within the plot  

-The Entire premise .
-Talks to TIM.
-Freedoms progress.
-Going to Horizion
-The collector 'trap'
-Second Collector, Reaper ship.
-The shutle scene.
-Going through the Relay.
-Baby terminator.

Those are the major plot points have Plotholes in them, or they are a plothole by themselfs.
Also let's not forget the two bases of the entire plot.

-TIM and Shepard's 'plan'.
-Collector harbinger 'plan'.

And if you wan't explanations i suggest you watch this:

www.youtube.com/watch

and if that's not good enough then this:

www.youtube.com/watch

By major, I mean anything that is more important than finding thermal clips on a planet that should not have them. Something that was an actual oversight or flaw in the writing and not a game play mechanic. But from what I can see... you don't even know what a plot hole is.

Explain how anything in the list you just made is a plot hole. A plot hole according toGuldhun2's definition:
A plot hole  is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.
While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance
occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome.

[Il Divo]

Is someone really trying to argue that AI, as presented, are common? Even worse, that the Collectors should have anticipated the presence of EDI on Shepard's ship? It doesn't get more idiotic than that...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Perhaps some confusion as to the difference between an AI and a VI?

[SpiffySquee]

Il Divo wrote...

Is someone really trying to argue that AI, as presented, are common? Even worse, that the Collectors should have anticipated the presence of EDI on Shepard's ship? It doesn't get more idiotic than that...

Oh... I don't know, saying that the simple act of talking the TIM is a plot hole might top it... a little

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Squee,you're arguing with the guy who said batarian husks are a ret-con....

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Perhaps some confusion as to the difference between an AI and a VI?

I guess it's possible. I just really have trouble seeing how anyone could predict Shepard possessing one of the most sophisticated AIs in existence on board his ship.

[SpiffySquee]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Squee,you're arguing with the guy who said batarian husks are a ret-con....

because.... batarian husks in ME1 had green lights??

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Perhaps some confusion as to the difference between an AI and a VI?

I guess it's possible. I just really have trouble seeing how anyone could predict Shepard possessing one of the most sophisticated AIs in existence on board his ship.

Probably couldn't have. 

And if this is about the Collectors, it's not like they're very bright... they're kinda... automatons

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 30 août 2011 - 04:56 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Squee,you're arguing with the guy who said batarian husks are a ret-con....

because.... batarian husks in ME1 had green lights??

Oh, wait, this is going to be like those nimwits who tried to make lightsabre color mean something, isn't it?  

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Squee,you're arguing with the guy who said batarian husks are a ret-con....

because.... batarian husks in ME1 had green lights??

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 30 août 2011 - 04:59 .

[Fixers0]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

Modifié par Fixers0, 30 août 2011 - 05:03 .

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

How to they harvest/collect organics without ground forces?

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

How to they harvest/collect organics without ground forces?

You tell me, how did they do it they do it on the batarian homeworld then?

[Bourne Endeavor]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Let me give you a really good example of a plot hole. Thermal clips on Jacobs loyalty mission. They were not invented until 8 years after their ship had been stranded. The fact that the mission has them is impossible according to the logic of previous story.

Thermal Chips as a whole are a retcon, and a poorly worded one at that but alas we are making progress. I even agree this was something we can overlook due to its irrelevance to the plot.

Shepard Resurrection may have been handled wrong form you point of view. It may be hard to believe from your point of view. It may even be stupid from your point of view. But it is not a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Cerberus developed a new technique. They explained that that is what they did. Unless at some point the story established that it would be impossible for Cerberus to develop new techniques it is not a plot hole. It is a new concept.

Sigh, well so much for progress. We have been over this, wherein I presented on a point by point basis why this was in fact a plot hole. You chose not to respond. While Cerberus developed new technology, it remains unknown how they recovered Shepard's body or brain. In order for the events of Act Two (Shepard's Resurrection) to logically fit, the questions in Act One must be addressed (Shepard's body/brain being intact.) Devoid of this exposition, the conclusion of Act One is inconsistent with Act Two, and therefore a plot hole.

The collector trap is also not a plot hole. There is nothing in the story that says it would be impossible for the collectors to lay such a trap. Just because you feel they laid a very bad trap and handled it in a stupid way does not mean this event could not take place. Unlikely events or unanswered questions are not plot holes.

Allowing Shepard to board their ship to begin with, let alone reach the control panel however is a plot hole, unless we determine Harbinger is simply incompetent. There was no rationality behind these actions. TIM's subsequent betrayal of you worsens this since he has even less of a reason to do so.

Even I agree the team leaving for the IFF trap could have been handled better and was Bioware dropping the ball. Again, however, there is no plot hole here. Where in the story was it established that they could not all get on a shuttle and leave the ship? Were was it establish that they could not test the IFF on the Normandy first? For it to be a plot hole, you would have to prove that the story informed us that this event could not take place. Again, stupid decisions, or unlikely decisions do not equal plot hole.

The story has long established this when throughout the course of two games, we have never been required to take everyone. It then does not provide any exposition whatsoever to illustrate why we are abruptly told our team of badasses must abandon the Normandy. Not testing the IFF on the Normandy first is what we attribute common sense. We have no idea what this thing might do, in what warped degree of logic would any rationally minded individual think to install the thing and hope for the best as the first conclusion? Coincidently, the same logic is used when rushing through the Omega 4 Relay; no planning just charge and pray.

Harbinger not destroying the Normandy and winning the game, or at least severely hampering Shepard, is a massive plot hole.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Installing the IFF on the Normandy equates to being illogical
Harbinger acts completely unlike his character, unless he was built to be a moron
That last one covers the shuttle to nowhere since we are never told what the mission is, why it required are whole team and why Shepard just abandons the Normandy. The only reason it happened was because the plot needed a way to move forward and the writers were lazy.

The collector base is so broad an idea that I don't even know what you a referring to, but if you mean the entire suicide mission, it is most defiantly not a plot hole. Just because you feel it was stupid to rush in there with a team of 14 does not mean the story established at some point that they could not do this.

Remember that whole "unlikely behavior or actions of characters" definition? You have two options, call it a plot hole or call Shepard a moron. You cannot have it both ways, either the action was incompetence on Shepard or a plot hole.

We have no idea what awaits us beyond the Relay. It could lead to a fleet of Collector Cruisers were our bunch of guys are useless in every fundamental way. In actuality, we still had yet to conclude if our badass squad would be required since we, once again, have no idea what is the other side. It all just happens to, you know, work out for the best.

You can call all of these bad writing. It's your opinion and you are eintiled to it, but you can not call them Plot holes. At least not by the criteria YOU provided.

While it may be my opinion, I also have fact to back it up. What you are doing here is taking only one definition of a plot hole and applying it to everything. It doesn't work that way.

[The Spamming Troll]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Blah blah blah. More smudboy BS and lit crit snottiness. Whatever.

i would think something must be going on in this topic to average 10 pages per day.

i kindof like this smudboy dude. i dont think i would disagree with anything ive seen in the vid. im not sure how you could. or maybe im too far out of the loop.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

Because it goes against all the other times in ME1 and 2 that we have seen reapers attack a planet????

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

How to they harvest/collect organics without ground forces?

You tell me, how did they do it they do it on the batarian homeworld then?

They indoctrinated some batarians,said batarians make dragons teeth,or perhps they just do their indoctrination that just makes you a husk,then they spread like zombies...

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

How to they harvest/collect organics without ground forces?

You tell me, how did they do it they do it on the batarian homeworld then?

Husks/Indoctrinated servants.

The Reapers don't NEED to bring Batarian ground forces to Earth, but if they can strenghten their ground forces, why wouldn't they?

@Bourne: I've stated many times that the Collector Ship sequence is not a plot hole. Please look at my posts on the subject.

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

By major, I mean anything that is more important than finding thermal clips on a planet that should not have them. Something that was an actual oversight or flaw in the writing and not a game play mechanic. But from what I can see... you don't even know what a plot hole is.

Explain how anything in the list you just made is a plot hole. A plot hole according toGuldhun2's definition:
A plot hole  is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.
While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance
occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome.

First of all i suggest watching the aforementioned videos, which covers all the points in said before.

Secondly, simply said a plothole is a gap in the story that negaticly impacts the progression of the plot, i allready mentioned that, but what I also allready mentioned  is that the entire progression is sudden and random, so really the plot just happens, i think that we actually can argue that this is the most major plot holes of them all is the random progression of the hollow plot and the fact that the entire plot is empty except from some offroading because neither of the characters stories had anythin to do with the narative.

 

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

Husks/Indoctrinated servants.

Where did they get these,?

The reapers really didn't need to bring ground army to earth because for all we know from the first game that's not how they work, they just indoctrinate the local populations. 

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Husks/Indoctrinated servants.

Where did they get these,?

The reapers really didn't need to bring ground army to earth because for all we know from the first game that's not how they work, they just indoctrinate the local populations. 

The Husks? Probably from the last harvesting cycle. After all the Derelict reaper had ALOT of Husks on it; not all of those guys were Cerberus scientists. This suggests the Reapers have Husks on board them.

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

The Husks? Probably from the last harvesting cycle. After all the Derelict reaper had ALOT of Husks on it; not all of those guys were Cerberus scientists. This suggests the Reapers have Husks on board them.

An me wondering were all those husks came fron the DR, especially since they all have the humans husk model.

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Husks? Probably from the last harvesting cycle. After all the Derelict reaper had ALOT of Husks on it; not all of those guys were Cerberus scientists. This suggests the Reapers have Husks on board them.

An me wondering were all those husks came fron the DR, especially since they all have the humans husk model.

An organic species shaped like a humanoid. In this cycle alone we have Quarians, Turians, Salarians, batarian, Asari, Drell, Vorcha and humans that all have the same basic shape. It's not difficult to assume other organics have looked similar.

[Sgt Stryker]

Fixers0 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Because the reapers should have went straight for Earth and completely ignored everything else...yeah...you aren't going to get anywhere with him, without a proper understanding of a plot-hole or a ret-con and thinks if he doesn't like or agree with something it must be a plot hole or a ret-con.

That's a lie, the Reapers needing to bring a ground army to earth is a Retcon.

Which previously established facts in the MEverse does this rewrite?

Fixers0 wrote...

An me wondering were all those husks came fron the DR, especially since they all have the humans husk model.

I assume DR = Derelict Reaper. Those husks came from the Cerberus team that was there before Shepard. (Yes, there were several hundred scientists on that team)

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 30 août 2011 - 05:21 .