6494 réponses à ce sujet

[asindre]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot

I think a lot of people don't understand what this really says. A lot of people state that the resurrection of shep was a plot hole because they did not explain how the brain was intact. They don't have to because the story established that the Lazarus project brought him back from his current state. Meaning if his brain was goo, it could still restore it. I can hear you saying, "but that is impossible!"

Does not matter, because a plot hole must break the logic of the story, not the real world. The story establishes that it is possible in that universe. Therefore, the resurrection does not break the logic set forth by the story. You can call it bad writing, but you can not call it a plot hole.

Same goes for going through the relay before sending a probe or whatever. It would have to break the logic set by the story or go against Shep's character. Since the first game Shep has always gone first. He is always of the first on the ground. He has never sent a probe or recon drone first. He always charged head first. So why is suddenly a plot hole that he did what he has always done? You may have done it differently, but that does not make it a plot hole.

Sheps ressurection is not a plot hole, just very bad writing.


The probes and Omega 4 relay are a plot hole tough.

Sending in probes first would be like announcing to the collectors that you're coming, I don't think that would be a good idea.

 I don't recall that "being stupid" was part of sheppards character.

You clearly haven't watched squee's "ME with friends" 

Modifié par asindre, 30 août 2011 - 08:24 .

[dreman9999]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...
Not a great trap at all. Where were all the collectors? Why wasn't the path back bloced by en entire devision or a blockade? Why wasn't the shuttle blown up? Why allow Shep to get in that deep (and to the central terminal) in the firt place?

Handing a character the idiot ball doesn't work in a serious story. If it's a parody or comedy, sure. But not in a serious story.
[/quote]

Well they couldn't have hid the entire Collector Ship population in that room; there was no cover or place to hide except for those pods, and Shepard would have noticed if there were thousands of Collectors hiding in those pods and not have entered the room. Plus, a ship that big most likely requires a lot of Collectors to run it. They were also dealing with an unexpected AI attack.

The path was blocked by a large amount of Collectors and a Praetorian. I'm sure more Collectors were on their way, but it is a big ship.The shuttle wasn't blown up because it didn't need to be blown up; they thought they had Shepard trapped. Why destroy something if you can salvage it? Also, there weren't any Collectors in that area to blow up the shuttle so it's a moot point.

The terminal EDI hacked was not the central command terminal. That would be wherever the pilot is, and we were definitely not in the cockpit of the Collector Ship. Why not trap Shepard earlier? Once again, trapping him a hundred or more feet in the air with scarcely any cover is more effective than trapping him in a single room.
[/quote]

Why were the collectors so disperesed? Why does it take them forever to get to the fight - even moreso if they knew where sheppard would be??

Why NOT blockade the shuttle? No Collectors there? Bollocks. there were other door and while shep was at the terminal, you could have moved an entire ARMY. And why would you even want to salvage that useless shuttle?

And how the f**** do you know it wasn't hte main terminal? Who the hell told you where the terminals on the collector ship are?

And no, traping him on platfrom with BUILT-IN COVER is not billiant. Attacking him in waves of 3-4 is NOT brilliant.
The collectors and Harbie have demonstrated the planing brilliance of a rock.
[/quote][/quote]


Let see now.....
They placed them in the air on a platform with no way down but killing themselves. The attacked him is waves to widdle him/her down.
Heck, hey could just leave Shep there and if EDI was not there, they had no way down. The waves stopped because EDI stopped it. The mountain of platoons did not show up because EDI cut them off and guided Shepard away from them.(And it's not like Shep would not  just kill them off any way.)
The only reason the trap fail was because of EDI, an AI on ship which no ship no race from the Citidel or turminus shown to have, Heck, no ship but Geth ships have AI's out side of the normady-2 and that Geth are AI's.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sending a probe through the Omega 4 Relay isn't all that logical. It would get shot down anyways, so the point of it is...?

Like I believe Spiffy said, it's smarter to install the IFF on a warship with a super advanced AI monitoring things, right?

How do you know if it would be shot down? You don't know what's on the other side!

And it doen'ts matter if it's shot down - it's a probe. Probes are expendable. It's purpose is to scout and transmit info to you.

So no. It's not smart to risk loosing your biggest investments all in one go, by taking COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY risks.

You're saying a probe with the IFF should be sent through the relay right?

Okay, let's say Shepard does this. He sends the probe through, not knowing what's on the other side. Assuming the probe can transmit data through all the radiation in the galactic core and across all those light years, what does Shepard gain by doing this? The probe will just be shot down or smash against debris. So now Shepard learns that there is debris from other ships (which he could have figured out without a probe, seeing as how hundreds of ships have gone through the Omega 4 Relay and never returned), and that the Collectors have defenses around their base (which I would assume Shepard know that too).

What's the point of that?

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

The probes the Shadow Broker sent were destroyed.

They came back and thats the fact, they were recoverd.

111987 wrote..
Besides, the Shadow Broker was allied with the Collectors. How is that relevant anyways?

Exactly, the Shadow broker setting up a buisness deal with the Collectors has nothing to do with him sending probes.

111987 wrote..
It doesn't help Shepard to send a probe through just so it can be destroyed...

It' scrapped but that doesn't matter, they came back through the relay, and were retrieved, but agents of the shadow broker, if they came back, other probes probably can do aswell.

111987 wrote..
And it's called a 'suicide mission' from the start. Besides that doesn't address the point I made.

It does, getting proper intel and preparing accordingly is the best way to surive.

111987 wrote..
However, based off the fact that there are no habitable planets in the galactic core, the only possible explanation was that the Collectors were located in a space station.

It could also be that the Collector ship is just there, or there is Mass Relay network, or an artifical planet created by the Reapers, Point: you can't be certain on what's behind the relay.

111987 wrote..
Which means finite numbers of Collectors, which makes victory a possibility. If they had found out the Collectors had an entire planet, they probably would have altered the plan.

Or it's just mister plot convienance comming up, With our magic Plot provider TIM giving us tickets which says what's going to happen next.

It's all here

www.youtube.com/user/smudboy#p/u/14/16wDAi_rsZg

[dreman9999]

Xeranx wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Let me give you a really good example of a plot hole. Thermal clips on Jacobs loyalty mission. They were not invented until 8 years after their ship had been stranded. The fact that the mission has them is impossible according to the logic of previous story.

Thermal Chips as a whole are a retcon, and a poorly worded one at that but alas we are making progress. I even agree this was something we can overlook due to its irrelevance to the plot.

You should look up the term retcon. Thermal clips are a new tech. The codex explains that they were developed and why. It is only a retcon if they just suddenly appeared with no explanation, or the game pretend it was always like that.

The explanation of the thermal clips and how they came to be is a retcon of what we understood of the Geth.  In the first game the Geth never used the mechanic that's in ME2.  If they had we would have seen some clue to their use of thermal clips then.  As it exists, all weapoons relied on the overheating mechanic up until Shepard's death.  Nothing hinted at the Geth deciding to drop the overheating tech for a more flawed system as the thermal clip mechanic.  

You're limited in the number of shots you can take with any weapon using the mechanic if you run out of thermal clips.  Also in light of that, it's still stated that we still have a single block that's fed into our weapons and lasts a long time.  Thermal clips along with that single metal block result in an impotent weapon if thermal clips are nowhere to be found.  It isn't logical for the Geth to adopt that kind of tech and forgo one that's better.  They would advance it so that weapons overheat very little if at all.  The thermal clips are an adaptation of the overheating mechanic so instead of waiting for a few seconds for your weapon to cool down, the few seconds we'd wait is applied to the amount of time it would take to eject a clip.  Yes it's much faster than the cooldown would be, but it's a poor one still because of the limitiation that exists.

The comment is funny because in ME1 no one knew anything about the Geth.
All we know was that they over turned the quarians, hate organics, and have tech no one has or seen. In ME2, they just upgraded do to the fact they under stood the having guns that can be easilly turned off in battle is bad.
Please try something else.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes it is. How would we know the stories direction or point if we don't no the full story. How do we know it;s a plot whole if everything is not explained yet and the story line for it is not closed. The laseruse story line is not done, just put to the side. It would be saying ME story is bad because the reaper never told anyone their motivations in the first and second part of the game. It's how trilogies work, the write gives you part of the info to draw you in and gives you bits and piese along the way till the story isdone, that's how episodic stories work as well.

No. Plot holes wihtin a sequel should not exist Trilogy or not.
It a plot holes is not taken are of within a sequel, then that's BAD WRITING. Not having all information is not a plot problem. Not having important information about the plot IS.

[asindre]

Fixers0 wrote...
Or it's just mister plot convienance comming up, With our magic Plot provider TIM giving us tickets which says what's going to happen next.

It's all here

www.youtube.com/user/smudboy#p/u/14/16wDAi_rsZg

Of course it's plot convenience, like the little weak spot on the death star, in a story there needs to be a chance of success.

And maybe try making your own points instead of just linking smudboy?

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

The probes the Shadow Broker sent were destroyed.

They came back and thats the fact, they were recoverd.

[

Could show a link for this info?

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

The probes the Shadow Broker sent were destroyed.

They came back and thats the fact, they were recoverd.

111987 wrote..
Besides, the Shadow Broker was allied with the Collectors. How is that relevant anyways?

Exactly, the Shadow broker setting up a buisness deal with the Collectors has nothing to do with him sending probes.

111987 wrote..
It doesn't help Shepard to send a probe through just so it can be destroyed...

It' scrapped but that doesn't matter, they came back through the relay, and were retrieved, but agents of the shadow broker, if they came back, other probes probably can do aswell.

111987 wrote..
And it's called a 'suicide mission' from the start. Besides that doesn't address the point I made.

It does, getting proper intel and preparing accordingly is the best way to surive.

111987 wrote..
However, based off the fact that there are no habitable planets in the galactic core, the only possible explanation was that the Collectors were located in a space station.

It could also be that the Collector ship is just there, or there is Mass Relay network, or an artifical planet created by the Reapers, Point: you can't be certain on what's behind the relay.

111987 wrote..
Which means finite numbers of Collectors, which makes victory a possibility. If they had found out the Collectors had an entire planet, they probably would have altered the plan.

Or it's just mister plot convienance comming up, With our magic Plot provider TIM giving us tickets which says what's going to happen next.

It's all here

www.youtube.com/user/smudboy#p/u/14/16wDAi_rsZg

The probes came back in pieces, showing no useful data. How does that help?

Even if Shepard did send through a probe, he wouldn't get any useful data. See my post above this one.

They know there couldn't be an artificial planet there because it would be far too large to fit in 'the small safe zone'. If it was just the Collector Ship, then yay for the Normandy, ending the Collector threat would be a piece of cake. The most likely explanation was a base. Lo and behold, there was a base there. That isn't plot convenience; if there's going to be something in the galactic core, a space station is FAR more likely than a planet.

[Iakus]

SpiffySquee wrote...
You should look up the term retcon. Thermal clips are a new tech. The codex explains that they were developed and why. It is only a retcon if they just suddenly appeared with no explanation, or the game pretend it was always like that.

This is why I don't subscribe to the "plot hole" concept so much as "plot gap"

Not contradictions as such, but bumps in the nasrrative that requires the player to make intellectual contortions to justify.  One or two is forgiveable (modified by how well you enjoy the story in general).  But there are numerous ones in ME2.  Including, but not limited to

Where Mordin got his "samples" to build a Seeker and anti-Seeker tech
The Shuttle Ride to Nowhere
Harbringer's motivation for getting ahold of Shepard's body
The Lazarus Project in general
Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is.
Shepard (and Joker) reacting so well to an AI being on board (bonus points for Tali reacting so well to having an AI and a geth on board

There are relatively few actual plot holes.  Just a lot sense of having missed some scenes somewhere along the way.  Like someone snipped a minute or two in spots and never bothered to edit around them.

THe only real holes I can think of right now is thermal clips on the Gernsback and Conrad always acting like you put a gun in his face.  And that one is an acknowledged import bug.

Maybe the idea that tatoos and spandex count as "armor" too.  Where do you put the medigel dispensers on those things? 

You assume they had to find it intact. The Lazarus project claimed it was able to revive Shepard from the state they found him in. It did not say it can only do this when the brain is intact. Is it unlikely that Shepard could be brought back to life? About as unlikely that an element could change the mass of an object with electricity. The point is the game told you the Lazarus was able to bring him back from the state they found him in. That is all the info necessary to move the plot forward. hand wave? Perhaps. Plot hole? not even close.

Like I said, "plot gap".  Okay the Lazarus Project exists, but it falls outside the known limits of human technology. Sure it's as unlikely as the element that can change the mass of an object with electricity.  But the discovery of said element came with finding a 50,000 year old data cache of an extinct alien species.  No such cache was mentioned by the Illusive Man  in inspiring the Lazarus Project;)

Again, the fact you think something is stupid does not make it a plot hole. Nothing in the story gave the impression that the collectors could not lay such a trap, and you can't say is was against their character when you don't even know what their character is.

I agree that it was stupid from both sides.  The Collectors were stupid in letting Shepard get as far as he did and interface with their computer (So far, Shep has managed to hack a GARDIAN tower, the CItadel, and now a Collector Ship.  They really should stop underestimating him), should have cleared that pile of superweapons so Shep couldn't further arm himself,  and should have done somehting more permanent to the Kodiak to prevent escape.

Shep, on the other hand, shoud have gone in assuming a trap. And brought along a nuke to deal with the ship more permanently.

Unless he gave the only one they had to Jack...

And yet, it's still one of my favorite missions.  Because it actually dealt with the Collectors.  Too often this game forgets that they exist.

When you have no idea what is on the other side it is logical and common place to send an advanced party for recon. Sending a probe would only work if you could install  the IFF, it works, and the probe could operate it on it's own. We see no evidence that this was possible. Even EDI could not make it work right at first, so you think a probe could do it? The best option was to send a highly trained team to do stealth Recon. If it had been a crap load of ships, they would have just come back. Things "worked out" because it is a video game. It would have been a very odd ending if they had found a 1000 ships and just turned around and went home.

This is why I would have been in favor of finding the IFF first, do a scouting mission, then assemble the team.That way Shepard knows what he's up against, what he's recruiting a team for, rather than having everything happen to work out.  Much less "video game" that way. 

Also, you have no fact to back up your arguments other than you thought it was dumb. Lazarus never claimed it needed an intact brain. The brain could have been goo for all we know. Lazarus was apparently able to repair it. It is not a plot hole unless it somehow contradicts itself. you do not know Harbinger's, or the collector's personalities so you can not call ANYTHING they do against their personalities. Therefore it can not be called a plot hole. Even by your definition, these "plot holes" make perfect sense from the stories stand point.

1)  Lazarus never claims anything at all.  That's actually a big part of the problem.
2)  It's hard to appreciate the motivations of harbringer of the COllectors when you don't know what they are.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that these will be addressed in ME3.  But even if they are, that doesn't make ME2 any better, it just means ME3 is carrying it.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes it is. How would we know the stories direction or point if we don't no the full story. How do we know it;s a plot whole if everything is not explained yet and the story line for it is not closed. The laseruse story line is not done, just put to the side. It would be saying ME story is bad because the reaper never told anyone their motivations in the first and second part of the game. It's how trilogies work, the write gives you part of the info to draw you in and gives you bits and piese along the way till the story isdone, that's how episodic stories work as well.

No. Plot holes wihtin a sequel should not exist Trilogy or not.
It a plot holes is not taken are of within a sequel, then that's BAD WRITING. Not having all information is not a plot problem. Not having important information about the plot IS.

So Harry Potter serviving  Lord Voldemort attck as a baby with no explination in the first movie/book is a plot whole?
Not konw what the bunker is in the first season of lost is a plot whole?
Not kowing why the doctor in only talks to the kid  in the first part of the movie in Six sense is a Plot whole?
......
My point is the story is not done. If the story ends and it's not explianed then it's a plot whole and ME story has not ended yet.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[sp0ck 06]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well they couldn't have hid the entire Collector Ship population in that room; there was no cover or place to hide except for those pods, and Shepard would have noticed if there were thousands of Collectors hiding in those pods and not have entered the room. Plus, a ship that big most likely requires a lot of Collectors to run it. They were also dealing with an unexpected AI attack.

The path was blocked by a large amount of Collectors and a Praetorian. I'm sure more Collectors were on their way, but it is a big ship.The shuttle wasn't blown up because it didn't need to be blown up; they thought they had Shepard trapped. Why destroy something if you can salvage it? Also, there weren't any Collectors in that area to blow up the shuttle so it's a moot point.

The terminal EDI hacked was not the central command terminal. That would be wherever the pilot is, and we were definitely not in the cockpit of the Collector Ship. Why not trap Shepard earlier? Once again, trapping him a hundred or more feet in the air with scarcely any cover is more effective than trapping him in a single room.


Why were the collectors so disperesed? Why does it take them forever to get to the fight - even moreso if they knew where sheppard would be??

Why NOT blockade the shuttle? No Collectors there? Bollocks. there were other door and while shep was at the terminal, you could have moved an entire ARMY. And why would you even want to salvage that useless shuttle?

And how the f**** do you know it wasn't hte main terminal? Who the hell told you where the terminals on the collector ship are?

And no, traping him on platfrom with BUILT-IN COVER is not billiant. Attacking him in waves of 3-4 is NOT brilliant.
The collectors and Harbie have demonstrated the planing brilliance of a rock.

Just take a step back and look at what you're saying here.  Do you want to play a damn video game or not?  Every single video game ever made is filled with these sorts of "plot holes"....BECAUSE ITS A DAMN VIDEO GAME.  THEY DON'T NEED TO RATIONALIZE EVERY TINY NUANCE OF GAMEPLAY AND LEVEL DESIGN.


So just...stop.  You're embarrassing yourself.  Why are you even getting so worked up over this stupidity anyway?  Its a game dude.  Just...chill.

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 30 août 2011 - 08:46 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

It looks like the Collector Ship and Collector Base are opperating with small crews and are largely automated. Even during their ground ops, they don't send in that many troops.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

The probes came back in pieces, showing no useful data. How does that help?

Even if Shepard did send through a probe, he wouldn't get any useful data. See my post above this one.

They know there couldn't be an artificial planet there because it would be far too large to fit in 'the small safe zone'. If it was just the Collector Ship, then yay for the Normandy, ending the Collector threat would be a piece of cake. The most likely explanation was a base. Lo and behold, there was a base there. That isn't plot convenience; if there's going to be something in the galactic core, a space station is FAR more likely than a planet.

1) the fact that the Shadow Broker recovered even pieces of a probe sent through a relay where nothing ever returned from is huge.  He's already done the impossible.  Now he just had to refine it.

2) If Shepard sent through a probe, he'd get an idea as to the defenses and what to expect.  I mean, it just makes sense to send a MALP through first when exploring potential hostile territory, right?  

3) Keep in mind also, Shepard's done more than half his recruting even before he learns that he's heading fro a base in the galactic core, rather than a planet, a fleet or whatever.

[Sgt Stryker]

iakus wrote...

Shep, on the other hand, shoud have gone in assuming a trap. And brought along a nuke to deal with the ship more permanently.

Oh man, I don't know if anyone's thought of this before, but there are several other reasons why the trap is too obvious (and why Shepard should have seen it). The Collector ship still has lights on and still has apparently has an atmosphere, despite supposedly losing main power. That would mean that some power source was still active somewhere on the ship. They should have had suspicions the moment they set foot.

Dammit, why do I have to think so much?

[Someone With Mass]

Guldhun2 wrote...


Maybe you should not have stop reading after the first sentence with the plot hole description eh?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is the full quote.


Massive fail for Humanoid_Typhoon dreman9999 111987 SpiffySquee 


Feeling pretty right now.

Impossible events? It's called science fiction for a reason.

And explaining how they restored Shepard's body brings absolutely nothing to the plot. It'd just drag the flow of the story down if they spent fifteen minutes explaining how they brought Shepard back to life in high details.

As for the relevant informetion, we already have that when we're ready for the suicide misison. There's a base in the galactic core, and we need to go and destroy it, using a Reaper IFF to get there.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...



Impossible events? It's called science fiction for a reason.

And explaining how they restored Shepard's body brings absolutely nothing to the plot. It'd just drag the flow of the story down if they spent fifteen minutes explaining how they brought Shepard back to life in high details.

As for the relevant informetion, we already have that when we're ready for the suicide misison. There's a base in the galactic core, and we need to go and destroy it, using a Reaper IFF to get there.

1) Anything is possible when you don't care about what's possible

2) How Shepard was restored has everything to do with the plot.  Because he was, you know, dead.  We don't need a fifteen minutes of one long expository dialogue.  But they could have seeded the game with clues.  Have Shep ask different people about their insights.  Might have been good conversation material, rather than a the running gag that it turned out to be.

3) and you get the Collector base information about 2/3 of the way through the game.  What has Shepard been preparing for up til then?

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

The probes came back in pieces, showing no useful data. How does that help?

Even if Shepard did send through a probe, he wouldn't get any useful data. See my post above this one.

They know there couldn't be an artificial planet there because it would be far too large to fit in 'the small safe zone'. If it was just the Collector Ship, then yay for the Normandy, ending the Collector threat would be a piece of cake. The most likely explanation was a base. Lo and behold, there was a base there. That isn't plot convenience; if there's going to be something in the galactic core, a space station is FAR more likely than a planet.

1) the fact that the Shadow Broker recovered even pieces of a probe sent through a relay where nothing ever returned from is huge.  He's already done the impossible.  Now he just had to refine it.

2) If Shepard sent through a probe, he'd get an idea as to the defenses and what to expect.  I mean, it just makes sense to send a MALP through first when exploring potential hostile territory, right?  

3) Keep in mind also, Shepard's done more than half his recruting even before he learns that he's heading fro a base in the galactic core, rather than a planet, a fleet or whatever.

1. It's pretty impressive, but it serves no real purpose if the Shadow Broker didn't get any intel from it. How is he supposed to refine the process? No matter how refined that probe is, the Occuli or debris field will prevent the probe from getting any real data.

2. Shepard wouldn't get an idea of anything. He would get a smahed up probe, just like the Shadow Broker.

3. True, Shepard doesn't yet know what to expect. But what is he supposed to do while the Illusive Man hunts for the Collector Ship and the Derelict Reaper, twiddle his thumbs? No, he would be recruiting a powerful strike team in case he needed them.

[Guldhun2]

Someone With Mass wrote...

As for the relevant informetion, we already have that when we're ready for the suicide misison. There's a base in the galactic core, and we need to go and destroy it, using a Reaper IFF to get there.

You know you're reading for the suicide mission because you have no information about whats behind the omega 4 relay...wait....what?

How do we know there's a base in the galactic core? How do you know there's not a thousand collector bases there? Or maybe a thousand reaper ships waiting for their budies to return? Or another relay linking to another part of the galaxy?

Modifié par Guldhun2, 30 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[The Silent]

As for the relevant informetion, we already have that when we're ready for the suicide misison. There's a base in the galactic core, and we need to go and destroy it, using a Reaper IFF to get there

Uh, no we don't. It works out that way because the plot demands it, but Shepard has no information on what to expect. There could be a planet, or a fleet of ships, or ANYTHING, instead of a base that happens to be able to be infiltrated by a ~10 man team. No one knows there is a base until we get there. There is no information. Shepard could be completely unprepared.

Now imagine if EDI had managed to hack into a Collector database aboard the ship and gather intelligence that way, then you can say "we know there's a base we need to destroy". Have that happen earlier in the plot, change a few other variables, and bam, we can justify the statement "through the relay is a Collector base. We can't destroy it with our weapons so we'll need to inflitrate the base to destroy it. I guess we need to build a team of biotics, techs, soldiers, and so on so we can pull it off."

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
You should look up the term retcon. Thermal clips are a new tech. The codex explains that they were developed and why. It is only a retcon if they just suddenly appeared with no explanation, or the game pretend it was always like that.

This is why I don't subscribe to the "plot hole" concept so much as "plot gap"

Not contradictions as such, but bumps in the nasrrative that requires the player to make intellectual contortions to justify.  One or two is forgiveable (modified by how well you enjoy the story in general).  But there are numerous ones in ME2.  Including, but not limited to

Where Mordin got his "samples" to build a Seeker and anti-Seeker tech
The Shuttle Ride to Nowhere
Harbringer's motivation for getting ahold of Shepard's body
The Lazarus Project in general
Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is.
Shepard (and Joker) reacting so well to an AI being on board (bonus points for Tali reacting so well to having an AI and a geth on board

There are relatively few actual plot holes.  Just a lot sense of having missed some scenes somewhere along the way.  Like someone snipped a minute or two in spots and never bothered to edit around them.

THe only real holes I can think of right now is thermal clips on the Gernsback and Conrad always acting like you put a gun in his face.  And that one is an acknowledged import bug.

Maybe the idea that tatoos and spandex count as "armor" too.  Where do you put the medigel dispensers on those things? 

You assume they had to find it intact. The Lazarus project claimed it was able to revive Shepard from the state they found him in. It did not say it can only do this when the brain is intact. Is it unlikely that Shepard could be brought back to life? About as unlikely that an element could change the mass of an object with electricity. The point is the game told you the Lazarus was able to bring him back from the state they found him in. That is all the info necessary to move the plot forward. hand wave? Perhaps. Plot hole? not even close.

Like I said, "plot gap".  Okay the Lazarus Project exists, but it falls outside the known limits of human technology. Sure it's as unlikely as the element that can change the mass of an object with electricity.  But the discovery of said element came with finding a 50,000 year old data cache of an extinct alien species.  No such cache was mentioned by the Illusive Man  in inspiring the Lazarus Project;)

Again, the fact you think something is stupid does not make it a plot hole. Nothing in the story gave the impression that the collectors could not lay such a trap, and you can't say is was against their character when you don't even know what their character is.

I agree that it was stupid from both sides.  The Collectors were stupid in letting Shepard get as far as he did and interface with their computer (So far, Shep has managed to hack a GARDIAN tower, the CItadel, and now a Collector Ship.  They really should stop underestimating him), should have cleared that pile of superweapons so Shep couldn't further arm himself,  and should have done somehting more permanent to the Kodiak to prevent escape.

Shep, on the other hand, shoud have gone in assuming a trap. And brought along a nuke to deal with the ship more permanently.

Unless he gave the only one they had to Jack...

And yet, it's still one of my favorite missions.  Because it actually dealt with the Collectors.  Too often this game forgets that they exist.

When you have no idea what is on the other side it is logical and common place to send an advanced party for recon. Sending a probe would only work if you could install  the IFF, it works, and the probe could operate it on it's own. We see no evidence that this was possible. Even EDI could not make it work right at first, so you think a probe could do it? The best option was to send a highly trained team to do stealth Recon. If it had been a crap load of ships, they would have just come back. Things "worked out" because it is a video game. It would have been a very odd ending if they had found a 1000 ships and just turned around and went home.

This is why I would have been in favor of finding the IFF first, do a scouting mission, then assemble the team.That way Shepard knows what he's up against, what he's recruiting a team for, rather than having everything happen to work out.  Much less "video game" that way. 

Also, you have no fact to back up your arguments other than you thought it was dumb. Lazarus never claimed it needed an intact brain. The brain could have been goo for all we know. Lazarus was apparently able to repair it. It is not a plot hole unless it somehow contradicts itself. you do not know Harbinger's, or the collector's personalities so you can not call ANYTHING they do against their personalities. Therefore it can not be called a plot hole. Even by your definition, these "plot holes" make perfect sense from the stories stand point.

1)  Lazarus never claims anything at all.  That's actually a big part of the problem.
2)  It's hard to appreciate the motivations of harbringer of the COllectors when you don't know what they are.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that these will be addressed in ME3.  But even if they are, that doesn't make ME2 any better, it just means ME3 is carrying it.

Where Mordin got his "samples" to build a Seeker and anti-Seeker tech(From the samples Miranda mention after escaping the first space station.)
The Shuttle Ride to Nowhere(This just bad, rushed writing. Not  a plot whole.)
Harbringer's motivation for getting ahold of Shepard's body (To make Shep like Saren.)
The Lazarus Project in general(Will be explained in ME3)
Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is.(Spectres gat accsess to new teck do to training. The better question is when Theramal clips where first teasted out)

Shepard (and Joker) reacting so well to an AI being on board (bonus points for Tali reacting so well to having an AI and a geth on board.(So you didn't see the option to tell Miranda to"Get that thing off my ship?".....And Joker hates on EDI for a good part of the game.)

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It looks like the Collector Ship and Collector Base are opperating with small crews and are largely automated. Even during their ground ops, they don't send in that many troops.

Because EDI WAS IN THE SYSTEM AND CUT THEM OFF.

[111987]

There's not enough space in the Galactic Core for a planet, an entire fleet of Collector ships, 1000 bases, etc...

If there were that many Collectors, with their tech they could have defeated the galaxy on their own. Simple reasoning suggests that there isn't an overwhelmingly large amount of Collectors.

[Xeranx]

nelly21 wrote...

It makes me giggle when non-writers call successful writers bad writers.

If you've ever watched movies or television, listened to any song, or looked at any politician and found your voice to criticize anything I have listed here the door's that way ----->.  Please see yourself out.

[dreman9999]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

As for the relevant informetion, we already have that when we're ready for the suicide misison. There's a base in the galactic core, and we need to go and destroy it, using a Reaper IFF to get there.

You know you're reading for the suicide mission because you have no information about whats behind the omega 4 relay...wait....what?

How do we know there's a base in the galactic core? How do you know there's not a thousand collector bases there? Or maybe a thousand reaper ships waiting for their budies to return? Or another relay linking to another part of the galaxy?

If it where reapers than they would be invaing already.
If they were more than one base than they would use more than one ship.
Also, EDI plotted the map, it's to the core not another part of the galexy add into the fact the iff give them a way to fly there.