6494 réponses à ce sujet

[pfhorlorn]

111987 wrote...

Not everyone is attacking smudboy personally. I personally haven't said a thing about him. Many people in the thread are simply debating the points raised by the videos. It's been pretty civil in fact.

I see.

Maybe I got fired up for nothing. I'll just, uh, snip my post there.

[Notlikeyoucare]

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 31 août 2011 - 05:33 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

Cerberus was always pro-human...

You don't want to rile up the fanboys...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 août 2011 - 05:43 .

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen, just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cereberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

Reapers being semi-organic is what is called a plot-twist. There's no evidence suggesting Bioware hadn't planned them to be partially organic right from the start.

Cerberus was initially thought to be an Alliance black-ops group that went rogue. This is just one person's opinion/take on what happened. Regardless, what about them every suggested they were anti-human? Yes, they did do horrible experiments (Thresher Maws, Husks) involving human, but even in ME1 their stated purpose was to create a super soldier for humanity. They have very questionable methods, but their goal has always been the advancement of humanity.

I'll give you the shuttle one, although I argue that keeping your squad intact for the suicide mission, even without a good explanation for them leaving the ship, is a better alternative to losing everyone.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

111987 wrote...



I'll give you the shuttle one, although I argue that keeping your squad intact for the suicide mission, even without a good explanation for them leaving the ship, is a better alternative to losing everyone.

Always hated that, it made me seriously dislike Miranda....Grunt would F--- those collectors days up.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

We never knew much about the reapers so it's just add on info.
Cerberus was always"pro-human". Everything they did in ME1 was to empower humanity.
And the start of the suicide mission was just bad.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

We never knew much about the reapers so it's just add on info.
Cerberus was always"pro-human". Everything they did in ME1 was to empower humanity.
And the start of the suicide mission was just bad.

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Weren't we originally talking about smudboy and his opinion? Not brains and sh*t?

It's like one of those fascist feminist forums....

The brains have to do with whether or not Shepard's memories could have been repaired in the Lazarus project or cloned if the brain was liquified, supporting or hurting the point that Shepard's ressurection was/wasn't a plot hole which was one of Smudboy's stronger points and the very fabric of the debate hinges on this one fact if memories can be cloned/repaired!! Don't you get it!?!?! It's all in the brains!!!


Seriously, based off how brains are supposed to work:  Couldn't Cerberus have repaired or cloned Shep's brain and used one of Shep's last awsomely futuristic brain scans to mimic the exact arrangement of neurons before Shep's death?

Edit:  Typo fix

No. Memeory is not stored in the DNA. The memory in humans is refference.based, stored in the brain. Think of it as flahs memory. When someoen dies, no oxygen and electrical activity in the brain means brain begins to die off. Memories are the first thing to go, as they are reifnroced by electric impulses.

In other words, no amount of science can bring Shepard back.
You might be able to clone his body, but his memories are gone forever. They cannot be reconstructed, as you cannot get something out of nothing.
Think of it as trying to turn a 10x10 picture into a sharp,1000x1000 one. You just can't, there's too much data loss.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

111987 wrote...

2. Why couldn't you clone a neuron? A neuron is a brain cell. A brain cell has a nucleus, which has DNA. Therefore a brain cell can theoretically be cloned.

Soo you extract the DNA from a neuron(which is the exact same as all the other DNA in the body) and then what?
Are you suggesting that memories are stored in the DNA or something?

Stem cells....

:blink:
No, that's not how stem cells work.
I should know, a family member underwent stem cell treatment, and the doctors explain in detail how it works.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 31 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

We never knew much about the reapers so it's just add on info.
Cerberus was always"pro-human". Everything they did in ME1 was to empower humanity.
And the start of the suicide mission was just bad.

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

DNA can be stored indefinitely, in the proper conditions.The Reapers physical shell isn't constructed from organic material; you're right, that would be silly because that would break down. Their shell is entirely mechanical. I'm sure in ME3 we'll get a better sense of how exactly Reapers are constructed.

Reapers do view organic life as a weakness, but they still see potential in organic life. I don't have it on me, but the conversation between Kahlee Sanders and the Reapers in Mass Effect: Retribution helps explains the Reapers thinking.

And I don't know if it wasn't logical to bring Shepard back...could anyone else have accomplished all that he has if someone took his place? Nor would that person have had a direct relation with the Council (via Anderson, regardless of the makeup of the council or who the human councillor is), a direct relation with the Rachni (if you saved the Rachni), the most powerful Krogan clan, the daughter of a Quarian admiral, and a close relationship with the Alliance (Anderson/Hackett).

Shepard is unique not only in ability, but also in the relationships he's formed. Relationships that will end up being key in defeating the Reapers.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

You know, reading over this thread and discussing the story has given me some insight into the writers MO: If they need something to happen or not , just make it so, no thought, no logic, just do it.

Reapers are now semi- organic constructs? Ok.

Cerberus are a pro human organisation now? Go for it.

All 13 sqaud members leave the ship for absolutely no reason? Sure, why not?

It seems as if the writers were playing the Lottery with plot points and letting them drop into the story.

We never knew much about the reapers so it's just add on info.
Cerberus was always"pro-human". Everything they did in ME1 was to empower humanity.
And the start of the suicide mission was just bad.

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

Yes,nothing was hinted so it's not a problem. It's not a plot hole because almostnothing was explained about the reapers in ME1. We just know about the trap, indocination, the harvesting, how they harvest, and how they plan things. ME2 explain how they are made.
Nothing about how they are made was stated about in ME1 and Vigi stated he knew nothing about were they came from, how they worked and why they harvest. Not a recton in any sense because nothing is stated about how they are made and out of what.

As for TIM ressurecting Shep, their is a very logic reason why... To put humanity in control. Shepard is not need to kill the reapers but Shepard is the most exprianced with dealing with reapers. With him/her alive the races will deffer to Shepard in the reper war to how to take the reapers down. Being that he's/she's human, the alliance is brought to a major role in the planning in the reaper war insuring humanity military and political power. If TIM did not bring shep back alive, anyone from any race can become that icon Shepard can be. TIM could raise another human to face the reapers but that human would never have the time to have the uninversal reconition Shepard has, leaving humanity at alesser spotin the war room while other races with more exprance leaders and soldiers move forward. TIM's goal is to empower humanity, and Shepard is his prize horse to do so. Even if Shepard does not agree with TIM, TIM doesn't need to control Shepard because he can easilly control Shepards leaders. TIM want control humanity and humanity to control the other races and with humanity have the best anti-reaper advisor in the galexy, humanity has the strogest ability to rise to power in the reaper war.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 août 2011 - 07:39 .

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

111987 wrote...

2. Why couldn't you clone a neuron? A neuron is a brain cell. A brain cell has a nucleus, which has DNA. Therefore a brain cell can theoretically be cloned.

Soo you extract the DNA from a neuron(which is the exact same as all the other DNA in the body) and then what?
Are you suggesting that memories are stored in the DNA or something?

Stem cells....

:blink:
No, that's not how stem cells work.
I should know, a family member underwent stem cell treatment, and the doctors explain in detail how it works.

I was refurring to cloning neurons not restoring memory. They can esally use a gray box or reaper tech for that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

DNA can be stored indefinitely, in the proper conditions.The Reapers physical shell isn't constructed from organic material; you're right, that would be silly because that would break down. Their shell is entirely mechanical. I'm sure in ME3 we'll get a better sense of how exactly Reapers are constructed.

Theri shells are mechanical, but the cores are pumped full with organic goo. That goo will degrade/break down.
Of course, EVERYTHING breaks down eventually (even steel and various alloys have a half-life and durabiltiy thats' not at al limpressive), the 37 million year old reaper should have crumbled apart (unless something was mantaining it).
Million year old tech that still works without constant mantainance and repairs is magic.

And I don't know if it wasn't logical to bring Shepard back...could anyone else have accomplished all that he has if someone took his place? Nor would that person have had a direct relation with the Council (via Anderson, regardless of the makeup of the council or who the human councillor is), a direct relation with the Rachni (if you saved the Rachni), the most powerful Krogan clan, the daughter of a Quarian admiral, and a close relationship with the Alliance (Anderson/Hackett).

Shepard is unique not only in ability, but also in the relationships he's formed. Relationships that will end up being key in defeating the Reapers.

BAh. Sheppard is just one man. Anyone can be replaced. Even symbols. Symbols get created.
What's Sheppard unique super-abiltiy that one one else has?
What relation does he have that one one else could also forge (or already has). If you want a symbol, every ME1 team mate is just as much a symbol as Sheppard is.

Tell me what Sheppard did in ME2 that no one else could have done? Name one thing that makes him so special that it makes sense to spend billions of $$$ and years on a redicolous project?

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes,nothing was hinted so it's not a problem. It's not a plot hole because almostnothing was explained about the reapers in ME1. We just know about the trap, indocination, the harvesting, how they harvest, and how they plan things. ME2 explain how they are made.
Nothing about how they are made was stated about in ME1 and Vigi stated he knew nothing about were they came from, how they worked and why they harvest. Not a recton in any sense because nothing is stated about how they are made and out of what.

No, it is a problem. Because ME1 impression was clearly that they are mechanical AI's.
Even ME2 is confusing, as if Sovereign is destroyed, no one mentions hte goo - which should be obvious.

As for TIM ressurecting Shep, their is a very logic reason why... To put humanity in control. Shepard is not need to kill the reapers but Shepard is the most exprianced with dealing with reapers. With him/her alive the races will deffer to Shepard in the reper war to how to take the reapers down. Being that he's/she's human, the alliance is brought to a major role in the planning in the reaper war insuring humanity military and political power. If TIM did not bring shep back alive, anyone from any race can become that icon Shepard can be. TIM could raise another human to face the reapers but that human would never have the time to have the uninversal reconition Shepard has, leaving humanity at alesser spotin the war room while other races with more exprance leaders and soldiers move forward. TIM's goal is to empower humanity, and Shepard is his prize horse to do so. Even if Shepard does not agree with TIM, TIM doesn't need to control Shepard because he can easilly control Shepards leaders. TIM want control humanity and humanity to control the other races and with humanity have the best anti-reaper advisor in the galexy, humanity has the strogest ability to rise to power in the reaper war.

Flawed reasoning.
What makes you think everyone will just follow Sheapprd just like that? What makes Shepaprd so unique? What about his ME1 squadmaets? Weren't tehy with Shep all they way? Dont' they know jsut as much about the reapers as him?
Also, how do you know everyone will differ to Sheapprd? How do you know someon else won't rise to the occasion and become an icon? That's not something you can plan!

And jsut because Shep leads the anti-repaer efort, that somehow makes humanity powerfull after the war?
With the time and money spent on brinign Shep back, they could have quite literally made a new icon - a media campaign and some false facts and you can have another "hero".

TIM's plan is jsut downright retarded.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

:blink:
No, that's not how stem cells work.
I should know, a family member underwent stem cell treatment, and the doctors explain in detail how it works.

I was refurring to cloning neurons not restoring memory. They can esally use a gray box or reaper tech for that.

Doesn't work that way.

1) Where's hte Sheaprd grey box before his death to use?
2) Neural pathways are created and re-inforced trough ones life. Cloning can re-create the brain, but it cannot re-create the pathways. Even if you could dump Sheps memory in such a clone, it will still not be sheppard - it will have the memroy, but the reasoning/thinking pattern will not be there.

[marstor05]

It's only a game. It's not real!!

[Notlikeyoucare]

In ME 1 Cerberus was nothing more than an anonomous organisation that was part of the Alliance that went rouge and was rare and brutal experiments on humans and aliens. But suddenlly in ME 2 they retconned it so Cerberus is a pro human organisation who was never part of the Alliance and have been active for years.

Rewatch the converstation with Sovereign, they see organic life as nothing. It seems they are alot more than nothing if they are required for procreation.

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 31 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

double post

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 31 août 2011 - 09:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Actually, Cerberus was part of hte alliance...the rouble black ops thing was never retconned.

IIRC, TIM was apart of a black ops group, and he caused that group to defect and become Cerberus.

[string3r]

This is what happens when you change writers half way through a trilogy.

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...
Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

That's a pretty major flaw in the "The pinnacle of evolution and existence" if you need organics to survive and reproduce.

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

That's a pretty major flaw in the "The pinnacle of evolution and existence" if you need organics to survive and reproduce.

You've already made a mistake in assuming that what the Reapers say is true = what you think is true. What they believe to be true is the relevant factor. They consider themselves to be the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Essentially, it's hubris.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 août 2011 - 12:59 .

[littlezack]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

That's a pretty major flaw in the "The pinnacle of evolution and existence" if you need organics to survive and reproduce.

You've already made a mistake in assuming that what the Reapers say is true = what you think is true. What they believe to be true is the relevant factor. They consider themselves to be the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Essentially, it's hubris.  

Exactly. That crap Sovereign said about 'having no beginning and no end' probably isn't literally true, either.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

Meh...reapers are pure stupid, that's what they are.