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[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

Meh...reapers are pure stupid, that's what they are.

You are certainly welcome to that opinion.

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

That's a pretty major flaw in the "The pinnacle of evolution and existence" if you need organics to survive and reproduce.

You've already made a mistake in assuming that what the Reapers say is true = what you think is true. What they believe to be true is the relevant factor. They consider themselves to be the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Essentially, it's hubris.  

That places them behind any other species in the galaxy, no? That would mean Geth are a way bigger thread than reapers, since they can easily keep building platforms themselves.

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

That places them behind any other species in the galaxy, no? That would mean Geth are a way bigger thread than reapers, since they can easily keep building platforms themselves.

The Geth aren't 37 million year old machine-organics which have successfully culled the galaxy every time, bar none. They're young and extremely primitive in comparison to the Reapers. Sovereign alone proved a match for the entire Alliance fleet. I also doubt the Reapers would consider themselves inferior because of Geth platform-building.

You're reading too much into the "pinnacle of evolution" speech. The Reapers are not, according to some non-existent standard, better than we are. They simply think they are, which portrays their arrogance and hubris.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 août 2011 - 01:13 .

[Whatever42]

Guldhun2 wrote...

That's a pretty major flaw in the "The pinnacle of evolution and existence" if you need organics to survive and reproduce.

They can believe themselves to be the pinnacle of evolution. We humans believe we are the pinnacle of evolution on this planet. That doesn't mean we won't continue to evolve.

Reaper motivations are still a mystery. They are immortal so reproduction really isn't required but why do they reproduce? If they want to reproduce, they could simply grow organics in a much more controlled manner than letting us evolve and grow in the wild. Why is it important to them that we evolve naturally? They don't reap species that are not technologically advanced. They also want species to advance along the same paths as Reaper technology. Why? What is the role of the organic in a Reaper?

I have my theories but Bioware obviously has put some thought into it. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...reapers are pure stupid, that's what they are.

You are certainly welcome to that opinion.

Well, the never demonstraied a lot of intelligence in their dealings so far....

[Darth Death]

Ji99saw wrote...

I'm sorry I tried to avoid this thread but I can't help it. First off it's a video game it's not a documentary or a play by play reenactment of some amazing epic that took place years ago. Second there are many things in the game that are not specifically explained and given the same amount of scrutiny and criticism any story would be discredited it for not telling everything. Third it's fiction meaning not real and I'm sorry if that crushes you science fanboy dreams. Personally I love it and can't wait until the third game.

Yea, that's pretty much how I feel too.

[Chewin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, the never demonstraied a lot of intelligence in their dealings so far....

It depends quite much on what circumstances you're referring to when calling the reapers unintelligent.

[Balek-Vriege]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Weren't we originally talking about smudboy and his opinion? Not brains and sh*t?

It's like one of those fascist feminist forums....

The brains have to do with whether or not Shepard's memories could have been repaired in the Lazarus project or cloned if the brain was liquified, supporting or hurting the point that Shepard's ressurection was/wasn't a plot hole which was one of Smudboy's stronger points and the very fabric of the debate hinges on this one fact if memories can be cloned/repaired!! Don't you get it!?!?! It's all in the brains!!!


Seriously, based off how brains are supposed to work:  Couldn't Cerberus have repaired or cloned Shep's brain and used one of Shep's last awsomely futuristic brain scans to mimic the exact arrangement of neurons before Shep's death?

Edit:  Typo fix

No. Memeory is not stored in the DNA. The memory in humans is refference.based, stored in the brain. Think of it as flahs memory. When someoen dies, no oxygen and electrical activity in the brain means brain begins to die off. Memories are the first thing to go, as they are reifnroced by electric impulses.

In other words, no amount of science can bring Shepard back.
You might be able to clone his body, but his memories are gone forever. They cannot be reconstructed, as you cannot get something out of nothing.
Think of it as trying to turn a 10x10 picture into a sharp,1000x1000 one. You just can't, there's too much data loss.

Umm you missed the whole point there.  Electrical charges and alignment of Neurons is not DNA.


Edit:  Think of long term memory in the brain being controlled by a organic switchboard.  At least I think that's the way it's supposed to work.

Edit 2 before I go to work :  If the brain is like an electrical/organic switchboard and if you had a basis of knowing what Shepard's exact alignment/setup of neurons were and knew what type of electrical activity was there beforehand (getting both from a futuristic brainscan or something close to his time of death), you might be able to recreate Shepard's memories even if you had to rebuild the brain.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 31 août 2011 - 02:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

That places them behind any other species in the galaxy, no? That would mean Geth are a way bigger thread than reapers, since they can easily keep building platforms themselves.

The Geth aren't 37 million year old machine-organics which have successfully culled the galaxy every time, bar none. They're young and extremely primitive in comparison to the Reapers. Sovereign alone proved a match for the entire Alliance fleet. I also doubt the Reapers would consider themselves inferior because of Geth platform-building.

You're reading too much into the "pinnacle of evolution" speech. The Reapers are not, according to some non-existent standard, better than we are. They simply think they are, which portrays their arrogance and hubris.  

Indeed, "evolution" isn't a straight line with an endpoint, a pinacle, an ultimate goal, anyway.  It's about survival, random adaptations, and the lowest working solution.  That the Reapers believe that they've reached some endpoint just shows how deluded and arrogant they are.

As for the fleet, that was just the local citadel fleet, completely unprepared and caught with its pants down, and the Alliance 5th fleet (or 6th, I can never recall), jumping in on short notice and charging headlong at the enemy. 

[littlezack]

What's even the argument, there? Yes, it's impossible for a man to come back to life. Just like it's impossible to move objects with your mind. Or heal yourself with gel. Or for a race of monogendered blue skinned women to exist.

Really now.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes,nothing was hinted so it's not a problem. It's not a plot hole because almostnothing was explained about the reapers in ME1. We just know about the trap, indocination, the harvesting, how they harvest, and how they plan things. ME2 explain how they are made.
Nothing about how they are made was stated about in ME1 and Vigi stated he knew nothing about were they came from, how they worked and why they harvest. Not a recton in any sense because nothing is stated about how they are made and out of what.

No, it is a problem. Because ME1 impression was clearly that they are mechanical AI's.
Even ME2 is confusing, as if Sovereign is destroyed, no one mentions hte goo - which should be obvious.

As for TIM ressurecting Shep, their is a very logic reason why... To put humanity in control. Shepard is not need to kill the reapers but Shepard is the most exprianced with dealing with reapers. With him/her alive the races will deffer to Shepard in the reper war to how to take the reapers down. Being that he's/she's human, the alliance is brought to a major role in the planning in the reaper war insuring humanity military and political power. If TIM did not bring shep back alive, anyone from any race can become that icon Shepard can be. TIM could raise another human to face the reapers but that human would never have the time to have the uninversal reconition Shepard has, leaving humanity at alesser spotin the war room while other races with more exprance leaders and soldiers move forward. TIM's goal is to empower humanity, and Shepard is his prize horse to do so. Even if Shepard does not agree with TIM, TIM doesn't need to control Shepard because he can easilly control Shepards leaders. TIM want control humanity and humanity to control the other races and with humanity have the best anti-reaper advisor in the galexy, humanity has the strogest ability to rise to power in the reaper war.

Flawed reasoning.
What makes you think everyone will just follow Sheapprd just like that? What makes Shepaprd so unique? What about his ME1 squadmaets? Weren't tehy with Shep all they way? Dont' they know jsut as much about the reapers as him?
Also, how do you know everyone will differ to Sheapprd? How do you know someon else won't rise to the occasion and become an icon? That's not something you can plan!

And jsut because Shep leads the anti-repaer efort, that somehow makes humanity powerfull after the war?
With the time and money spent on brinign Shep back, they could have quite literally made a new icon - a media campaign and some false facts and you can have another "hero".

TIM's plan is jsut downright retarded.

So in ME1, it told in detail how they were made and in ME2 they stopped being AI? yOU DID TALK TOLEGION MUCH.

Also, yes humanity would get powerful from that...Why? because you have to deal with the Alliance to deal with Shepard. And they will all deffer to Shepard, the one they called made for stating thereaper where real. Why? Because he was the one that started saying the reapers where coming and killed one. Also, with humanity it's not about another human rising to be an icon, it about rising on time. Someone from another race could do that with better chances than an unknown human. Nothings come up that would make someone as famous as Shepard. How can anything topor equal to staving the citadel. And the media campain would work on the other alians home world? That would just rally human, not all the races. Making statement like that make you look illogical.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


Indeed, "evolution" isn't a straight line with an endpoint, a pinacle, an ultimate goal, anyway.  It's about survival, random adaptations, and the lowest working solution.  That the Reapers believe that they've reached some endpoint just shows how deluded and arrogant they are.

That's how I've heard it described. In alot of science fiction, we often hear about the "next step in evolution". I had the flaws of this explained to me by  a friend, because it implies that evolution is essentially a linear path, when it's based around one's environment. As presented, the "pinnacle of evolution" speech is intended to make the Reapers seem bad ass, which is perfectly fine, but isn't really scientific.

As for the fleet, that was just the local citadel fleet, completely unprepared and caught with its pants down, and the Alliance 5th fleet (or 6th, I can never recall), jumping in on short notice and charging headlong at the enemy. 

Fair point, and Vigil does admit that Sovereign alone probably couldn't achieve absolute victory by himself, but it still indicates that Reapers are a substantial threat to consider, probably more so than the Geth.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

In ME 1 Cerberus was nothing more than an anonomous organisation that was part of the Alliance that went rouge and was rare and brutal experiments on humans and aliens. But suddenlly in ME 2 they retconned it so Cerberus is a pro human organisation who was never part of the Alliance and have been active for years.

Rewatch the converstation with Sovereign, they see organic life as nothing. It seems they are alot more than nothing if they are required for procreation.

1.Those exprement were to help humanity. So they are pro human.
2. Does Sovereign state how a reaper is made and made from? No. Then the organic partis not a retcon.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reapers turned into ogranic-goo monstrosities is horrible. There was NOTHING even hinting it in ME1. Heck, sovereign talked about their perfectio, and orgnicas as a weakenss, and error. Short-lived. (if there's organic goo inside a reaper, then that goo should be short-lived too, given how frail organic/celular reations are)

The change goes agaisnt everything he said. It's as bad as Cryisis 2 where you suddenly go from ice-aliens that started an invasion, to rediclous body-horror-goo aliens that are kept covered up. What is it with EA and their love for human goo???

And yeah..Sheps death and ressurection makes NO sense whatsoever either. Ther'es no logical reason why TIM would want him back.

Actually, Saren's end speech during the Battle of the Citadel about organic and machine perfection, plus a codex entry on husks, both indicated something along these lines.

Sovereign never refers to himself as a machine, from what I remember. It fits perfectly within the parameters of his speech. Reapers are not organic. Reapers are not machine. They are both.

Meh...reapers are pure stupid, that's what they are.

Or you can't admit you don't understand the plot.

[Someone With Mass]

At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

They still are evil douchebags except they, are now supposedly  made out of organic sludge, which makes them even more cartoonish and laughable, like we didn't have enough of that, but of course this all due to the writers not being able to write proper antagonists because mainstream gamers otherwise would't understand. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Someone With Mass wrote...
At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

Harvesting people is the action that indicates that they're evil d-bags.  Their motivation is secondary. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 31 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[littlezack]

Fixers0 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

They still are evil douchebags except they, are now supposedly  made out of organic sludge, which makes them even more cartoonish and laughable, like we didn't have enough of that, but of course this all due to the writers not being able to write proper antagonists because mainstream gamers otherwise would't understand. 

I'd actually say them being purely machines would be a lot simpler and easier to digest than them being a mixture of organics and tech.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

Harvesting people makes them evil d-bags. 

Here's the thing. We don't know why they are doing it but based on Harbingers comments, it's clear they think they are trying to help us.

[Someone With Mass]

Fixers0 wrote...

They still are evil douchebags except they, are now supposedly  made out of organic sludge, which makes them even more cartoonish and laughable, like we didn't have enough of that, but of course this all due to the writers not being able to write proper antagonists because mainstream gamers otherwise would't understand. 

Take the hipster attitude somewhere else.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 31 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[littlezack]

Evil's just a matter of perspective.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

Harvesting people makes them evil d-bags. 

Here's the thing. We don't know why they are doing it but based on Harbingers comments, it's clear they think they are trying to help us.

How nice for them.

Still evil.

[Someone With Mass]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
At least the Reapers have a legit reason to harvest people beyond being evil douchebags.

Harvesting people is the action that indicates that they're evil d-bags.  Their motivation is secondary. 

Yeah, I could have worded that a little better. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

littlezack wrote...

Evil's just a matter of perspective.

Speaking of hipster attitudes...

[100k]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Evil's just a matter of perspective.

Speaking of hipster attitudes...

>implying that what he said isn't true.

:huh: