6494 réponses à ce sujet

[SpiffySquee]

iakus wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No. Shepard is a overblown wanker.
He's importance is over-inflated for the sake of story, in defaince of all reason.

Captain Kirk isn't special
Piccard wasn't special either
Frodo wasn't special
Jack Sparrow wasn't special
Nothing special about Mel form Firefly
Nothing Special about Jack Bower

I could go on and on and on... Why does a protagonist have to have some mystical importance?

No one had accomplished what Shepard had. He was a symbol and a hero, and TIM felt he could use that to his advantage. It does not matter if you would have done it. It matters if he would have done it. You know almost nothing about him, his motivation, and his personality, yet you think you can tell us what he would or would not think.

And in ME1, Shepard was much like them.  A superbly trained Alliance marine who already survived one or more deadly encounters.  Exceptional, certainly, but not unique.  It was the Prothean beacon, and later the Cipher that made Shepard "special"  That's what allowed him to interpret events and gave him the tools needed to stop Sovereign and Saren.  RIght person, right place, right time.

It wasn't until ME2 and TIM's speech that Shepard became some kind of mystical savior figure who could save the galaxy with the power of his sheer awesomeness.  Right person.  Full stop.

When did TIM ever say that? He said Shepard was a symbol and the Reapers might fear him. He did not become these things until the end of ME1 when he... you know, saved the citadel and killed a reaper. Since we have no story between ME1 and ME2, it only makes sense that we would not see Shep called a hero until the start of ME2.

TIM never said Shepard was the only one who could do it. He never called Shepard a mythical savior. He viewed Shepard as a valuable tool, not the only tool.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, he could not. How would he make an army to couter indocrination, the reapers defenses, and have the defence to that a reapers attack power? With the reaper, throwing numbers of troops will not stop them. All reaper can do it land on a city anddo nothing, the armies won't have a way to damage it and soon the troops will be indorcinated. They need to find a weaknessto be able to take down the reapers not an army or a fleet. A fleet can only finshed them off once they are weakened.

You're missing the point, TIM wanted to stop Collectors, and for some reason he want's Shepard even though by the TIM gets to that conclusion, there isn't much of Shepard left to recruit, so why not use your army, get that IFF, Scout the relay, trap the collectors or whatever it takes to stop them, that's much more worth the effort then spending the next two years bringing back tabula rasa Shepard.

Is Random Cerberus Officer able to recruit people like Mordin?  Is someone besides Mordin able to come up with the Seeker Swarm counter-measure on short notice? 

Is a Cerberus army of a few hundred able to accomplish what already-established-in ME1-as-exceptional Shep and his small handpicked team is able to accomplish? 

Just thoughts, I'm not going to go around and around on it. 

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...

(snip)

undoubtedly you haven't watched this video -  -start at around 20:00

It's all there, everything you said has allready been debunked there, and it includes my favourite Smudboy line.

Modifié par Fixers0, 31 août 2011 - 04:58 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Nothing special...look at that hair and say that with a straight face.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 août 2011 - 05:00 .

[Fixers0]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Is Random Cerberus Officer able to recruit people like Mordin? Is someone besides Mordin able to come up with the Seeker Swarm counter-measure on short notice?

Sure, why not he just needed to explain the importance of this operation to him, did Shepard relation to cerberus effected that loyalty mission? No, it's just mentioned once,

And neither you nor me, are in a position to discuss Mordin's counter-measure as that's just a plot device we barly know anything about.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Is a Cerberus army of a few hundred able to accomplish what already-established-in ME1-as-exceptional Shep and his small handpicked team is able to accomplish?

Any competant Military team would be able to do the job, and let me ask you what looks more convincing, a Diciplined unit of armored Commandos, or some individuals who look like circus clowns?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Just thoughts, I'm not going to go around and around on it.

Good to hear, i wasn't planning to do either.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Is Random Cerberus Officer able to recruit people like Mordin? Is someone besides Mordin able to come up with the Seeker Swarm counter-measure on short notice?

Sure, why not he just needed to explain the importance of this operation to him, did Shepard relation to cerberus effected that loyalty mission? No, it's just mentioned once,

And neither you nor me, are in a position to discuss Mordin's counter-measure as that's just a plot device we barly know anything about.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Is a Cerberus army of a few hundred able to accomplish what already-established-in ME1-as-exceptional Shep and his small handpicked team is able to accomplish?

Any competant Military team would be able to do the job, and let me ask you what looks more convincing, a Diciplined unit of armored Commandos, or some individuals who look like circus clowns?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Just thoughts, I'm not going to go around and around on it.

Good to hear, i wasn't planning to do either.

Why not? Cerberus is a pro-human anti alian organisation. No cerberus agent is go to have Shepards pull. Garus, Tali, Jack, Grunt, Legion, Mordin, or most of the crew would ever agree to go on the ship if Shepard was their. As Samaras said"I don't work for Cerberus, Shepard.....I work for you."

And no an army can't just be able to just win with out intel and a stratagy. And how would you get that if nothing about the enemy is know and you have a time limit to take a target down.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 août 2011 - 05:10 .

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

(snip)

undoubtedly you haven't watched this video -  -start at around 20:00

It's all there, everything you said has allready been debunked there, and it includes my favourite Smudboy line.

You should try arguing things for yourself sometime. All Smud did is say I invented some scenario  instead of arguing why Shepard should have been resurrected, while at the same time showing clips where I argue why he should be resurrected. He completely missed the point and took the argument out of context.

I point out that Cerberus is not the type of organization to build a huge army since they are covert cells that work independently and that the council would not like the idea of a terrorist organization having a huge army, and thus would give him more unwanted attention.

He responds by showing the Normandy (1 ship) and say uh-huh.

As if one ship would draw the same attention as an entire army.

He completely ignores every example I gave where one person has made a large difference in history through the fact that they were a symbol that motivated people and give weight to TIM thinking Shep could do the same. Instead he simply states that this is pointless because symbolism doesn't keep you from getting stabbed...

True... probably why it's a good thing Shepard is a bad ass solider too.

And i love this one... No one treats Shepard like a hero so my point is invalid... As if TIM knew this would happen. As if TIM could see into the future and know that when he rebuilt Shepard, people would not respond the way he wanted them to. The way people treated Shepard in ME2 has absolutely no bearing what so ever on TIM choice to resurrect him before the game even started.

So instead of linking me to a video that you obviously don't understand, try coming up with your own arguments.

[Fixers0]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

Good to hear, i wasn't planning to do either.
[/quote]
Why not? Cerberus is a pro-human anti alian organisation. No cerberus agent is go to have Shepards pull. Garus, Tali, Jack, Grunt, Legion, Mordin, or most of the crew would ever agree to go on the ship if Shepard was their. As Samaras said"I don't work for Cerberus, Shepard.....I work for you."[/quote]

They reall didn't need a team of expandables, Mordin is the only one neccasary, and he will join up regardless if he has been made aware of the gravity of the situation, other ones like Okeer, and legion and even garus might agree to help cerberus but considering they are not plot-integral that doesn't matter. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Not sure about anyone else, but I'm not arguing with someone who isn't here, and frankly is a lit-crit snobby tool anyway.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 31 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

(snip)

undoubtedly you haven't watched this video -  -start at around 20:00

It's all there, everything you said has allready been debunked there, and it includes my favourite Smudboy line.

No it has not.
Shepard is unique by the fact that he'she was chosen to be a spectre, a stature no one can easilly reach. And before that he was an allaince N7 ageint. And then later, he/she save the citidel and killed a reaper.
That is unique.
Add on the fact that....
It's not about Shepard being special or being the only one to kill the reapers. It's about his/her reconition and skill to kill one. Sure anyone can save the universe but can that anyone ensure the rise of humanity or the servival of humanity. The savior can be anyone from any race and most likly, base on the fact no other human is a well known as Shepard, will be from another race. And TIM want 2 things, humanity to servive and to be empowered and Shepard is key to that. No mattter how great the other races generals, worriors,and soldiers are, with Shepard alive they will always differ to Shepard the reaper killer

[dreman9999]

[quote]Fixers0 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

Good to hear, i wasn't planning to do either.
[/quote]
Why not? Cerberus is a pro-human anti alian organisation. No cerberus agent is go to have Shepards pull. Garus, Tali, Jack, Grunt, Legion, Mordin, or most of the crew would ever agree to go on the ship if Shepard was their. As Samaras said"I don't work for Cerberus, Shepard.....I work for you."[/quote]

They reall didn't need a team of expandables, Mordin is the only one neccasary, and he will join up regardless if he has been made aware of the gravity of the situation, other ones like Okeer, and legion and even garus might agree to help cerberus but considering they are not plot-integral that doesn't matter. 

[/quote]........
Not really. What stopping Mordin from telling that cerberus agent NO and going to the Salarian STG who could do the same thing cerberus is doing?

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 août 2011 - 05:17 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fixers0 wrote...
They reall didn't need a team of expandables, Mordin is the only one neccasary, and he will join up regardless if he has been made aware of the gravity of the situation, other ones like Okeer, and legion and even garus might agree to help cerberus but considering they are not plot-integral that doesn't matter. 

Would they have been able to push through the Seekers on the Collector Base without Samara or Jack? 

Would Samara or Jack have joined up with Generic Cerberus Operative, instead of Shepard?


Would a force of hundreds of Cerberus agents have been able to go where Shep did, react as quickly as Shep did, accomplish what Shep did with very small units? 


It's not so cut and dried that Cerberus could have accomplished the job without Shep. 

[Hathur]

Folks, unlike Shepard, I don't think we need to worry about this horse getting back up... so... y'know..

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I don't think I've ever seen Fixers0 argue for himself,he just recycles other peoples comments and arguments.

[dreman9999]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I don't think I've ever seen Fixers0 argue for himself,he just recycles other peoples comments and arguments.

And he never has any strong points.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
They reall didn't need a team of expandables, Mordin is the only one neccasary, and he will join up regardless if he has been made aware of the gravity of the situation, other ones like Okeer, and legion and even garus might agree to help cerberus but considering they are not plot-integral that doesn't matter. 

Would they have been able to push through the Seekers on the Collector Base without Samara or Jack? 

Would Samara or Jack have joined up with Generic Cerberus Operative, instead of Shepard?


Would a force of hundreds of Cerberus agents have been able to go where Shep did, react as quickly as Shep did, accomplish what Shep did with very small units? 


It's not so cut and dried that Cerberus could have accomplished the job without Shep. 

To be fair they would have used Miranda and Jacob to hold up a barrier,they would lose 9/10 of their forces but...yeah nvm, you can't use a cudgel when you need a scalpel...

[Fixers0]

SpiffySquee wrote...
You should try arguing things for yourself sometime. All Smud did is say I invented some scenario, instead of arguing why Shepard should have been resurrected, while at the same time showing clips where I argue why he should be resurrected. He completely missed the point and took the argument out of context

Did you argue about why Shepard should be brought back, well that was a pretty short list wasn't it.

SpiffySquee wrote...
I point out that Cerberus is not the type of organization to build a huge army since they are covert cells that work independently and that the council would not like the idea of a terrorist organization having a huge army, and thus would give him more unwanted attention.

They did by now, an it appears that nobody intervered with that process.

SpiffySquee wrote...
He responds by showing the Normandy (1 ship) and say uh-huh.

As if one ship would draw the same attention as an entire army.

How many people intervered with project lazarus?, still you don't see the point they didn't had to raise an army, but it's better investment then putting some ashes back togheter.

SpiffySquee wrote...
He completely ignores every example I gave where one person has made a large difference in history through the fact that they were a symbol that motivated people and give weight to TIM thinking Shep could do the same. Instead he simply states that this is pointless because symbolism doesn't keep you from getting stabbed...

Or all those other arguments, Where did Shepard raise morale, may i ask?

SpiffySquee wrote...
And i love this one... No one treats Shepard like a hero so my point is invalid... As if TIM knew this would happen. As if TIM could see into the future and know that when he rebuilt Shepard, people would not respond the way he wanted them to. The way people treated Shepard in ME2 has absolutely no bearing what so ever on TIM choice to resurrect him before the game even started.

Did smudboy ever said that, bringing Shepard back to life has no advantages to TIM he would have know that after our tabula rasa guy died, it would be a better investment to start his own operation.

SpiffySquee wrote...
So instead of linking me to a video that you obviously don't understand, try coming up with your own arguments.

Not to insult you, but I think I understood that video a lot better then you ever will.

[111987]

@Fixers0

I made several points as to why bringing back Shepard would be key to uniting the galaxy and defeating the Reapers.

[Fixers0]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Would they have been able to push through the Seekers on the Collector Base without Samara or Jack?

Miranda, Jacob or any cerberus biotic will do the job. also do you think TIM knows ahead of time that such scenario will happen?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Would Samara or Jack have joined up with Generic Cerberus Operative, instead of Shepard?

Why should they need them in the first place?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Would a force of hundreds of Cerberus agents have been able to go where Shep did, react as quickly as Shep did, accomplish what Shep did with very small units?

Yes, why not? just seperate them into units of about 25 people each and let them do their job.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It's not so cut and dried that Cerberus could have accomplished the job without Shep.

So what did Shepard do (in the main plot) that anybody else could't?

Modifié par Fixers0, 31 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...

@Fixers0

I made several points as to why bringing back Shepard would be key to uniting the galaxy and defeating the Reapers.

And why would TIM even bother with that question at the Time of Shepard's dead, that's an argument after the fact, What's the best investment? use the fources and resources you have to prepare agains the enemy, or spend two years on some dubious plot that you don't know will work?

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Most of the major characters have something that limits them to a role other than Shepard's, in spite of their great abilities,

Kaidan, Garrus, and possibly Ashley and Jacob might be exceptions but none of the others have all the tools that are needed.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Well I guess if TIM was foolish to spend all his money on Shepard,then it was a foolish move to give him the base,cause he will just spend all of his resources trying to figure out where the collectors use the bathroom...

Pointless because they probably don't.

TIM obviously felt an army wouldn't be as good a tool as Shepard, and you think someone would notice a new army in a time of relative peace...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Thompson family]

You know, a guy would have to go to a vinegar factory to see more sour grapes getting mashed than here.

Modifié par Thompson family, 31 août 2011 - 11:28 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...


And in ME1, Shepard was much like them.  A superbly trained Alliance marine who already survived one or more deadly encounters.  Exceptional, certainly, but not unique.  It was the Prothean beacon, and later the Cipher that made Shepard "special"  That's what allowed him to interpret events and gave him the tools needed to stop Sovereign and Saren.  RIght person, right place, right time.

Shepard's acceptance into the Spectres, I think, immediately separates him from characters like Kaidan/Ashley. As presented, there are ~100 Spectres in existence, of which Shepard is a part. And he's the first human Spectre, which is ideal given TIM's political view points. Even taking into account the political circumstances surrounding Shepard's inclusion into the Spectres, his skill, achievments, and determination which set him apart from most others. Ashley/Kaidan can't even compare. They're essentially along for the ride, as the narrative presents them.

[dreman9999]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
They reall didn't need a team of expandables, Mordin is the only one neccasary, and he will join up regardless if he has been made aware of the gravity of the situation, other ones like Okeer, and legion and even garus might agree to help cerberus but considering they are not plot-integral that doesn't matter. 

Would they have been able to push through the Seekers on the Collector Base without Samara or Jack? 

Would Samara or Jack have joined up with Generic Cerberus Operative, instead of Shepard?


Would a force of hundreds of Cerberus agents have been able to go where Shep did, react as quickly as Shep did, accomplish what Shep did with very small units? 


It's not so cut and dried that Cerberus could have accomplished the job without Shep. 

To be fair they would have used Miranda and Jacob to hold up a barrier,they would lose 9/10 of their forces but...yeah nvm, you can't use a cudgel when you need a scalpel...

Way more than that. No sheildsthey grt from tali to protect the ship. No, thanix. And engineering over side not fixed. They would not make it out with what the had left.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 août 2011 - 05:43 .