6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I really agreed with his analysis of DA2. Story direction aside (which I did not entirely mind) plot advancement was confusing and all over the place, there was little to no direction with what to do, and one of the ways they "advance" the plot is by using varrics "rumors" hidden away in a menu with little explanation about it, and varric makes no mention of this in game.

I enjoyed DA2 but that really bothered me.

That's reffering to this.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin#Explanation_chart

So no, saying cousin as your blood uncle is wrong. If he so into analysising things, he should use proper detail and understand them.
How can one not understand Flemith was in the locket the whole time?

That's the MO, pay half attention, get worked up over half the facts, look for "faults", and then reject any corrections to their misperceptions of what's really going on in the game. 

[111987]

Guldhun2 wrote...

111987 wrote...
I have countered this several times now, and provided explanations that makes perfectly logical sense. Just because it wouldn't be your plan of action or first preference does NOT make it a case of poor writing, or a plot hole.

You have never countered that.

Give me one logical reason why not testing anything on the omega 4 relay is logical.

Post-IFF?

Because testing it on a probe would be useless. It would go through, and then what? You would still have no idea if it worked or not. All you would get back, if you were lucky enough to get anything back, would be the remains of a smashed up probe because of the Occuli and debris field.

It is logical to test your Reaper-based IFF on a ship with a Reaper-based AI, so that if there are complications, said AI will be able to handle it (as EDI did).

I'm sure i've said this before.

[Guldhun2]

nelly21 wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Jumping through the omega 4 relay, without testing it, without knowing whats behind it, were no other ship has ever returned from, to stop something you have almost no information on, while using alien technology on board of your ship is logical?


Nice!

You've now proven my point twice.

They wanted to save their crew. Sending probes would give away their attack. Reaper IFF (Identify Friend Foe System for the mentally deficient) Disguises them long enough to get through the relay and defend themselves as necessary.

I just gave you three reasons it's logical. You will continue to find it illogical.

Now what?

1.They wanted to save their crew? My shepard didn't. Now what?

Look at 08:40
"Not quite yet" aka plenty of time to test.

2.Sending probes would give away their attack.

So? They don't even know what they are attacking. And the shadowbroker also send in probes...and that did nothing.


3.Reaper IFF (Identify Friend Foe System for the mentally deficient)
Disguises them long enough to get through the relay and defend
themselves as necessary.

DEFEND AGAINST WHAT? THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GALAXY. And secondly, disguise? As soon as they arrive at the other side of the omega 4 relay they are attacked by these oculus things.

Modifié par Guldhun2, 31 août 2011 - 09:42 .

[nelly21]

Guldhun2 wrote...

They wanted to save their crew? My shepard didn't. Now what?

Look at 08:40

"Not quite yet" aka plenty of time to test.

Awesome. My other two points still stand (even for your Shepard).

SOOOOOOOOO.... yeah.

[Shotokanguy]

Again, a huge topic I feel I should weigh in on but it's super long and someone has probably already said it. Oh well.

I watched squee's videos, and got a pretty good idea of the kinds of arguments smudboy would be making if I watched all of his.

But we're on page 51, and it looks like we're not talking about them anymore. Here's the thing - I have seen "Mass Effect plot hole" discussions countless times, and I have pretty much NEVER seen a true plot hole brought up. There are 2 I can think of in ME2 off the top of my head that people never mention. In general, people just don't understand what plot holes are.

First, how does Shepard get that little datapad with Harbinger on it at the end of ME2? They never see the Reaper form of Harbinger. It makes no sense.

This one is even weaker, but still works knowing what we know about the seeker swarms - how does Mordin have one of the seekers in his lab?

But the things smudboy pointed out, and the things he put in his marketing video? He doesn't seem smart, to me.

[111987]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Again, a huge topic I feel I should weigh in on but it's super long and someone has probably already said it. Oh well.

I watched squee's videos, and got a pretty good idea of the kinds of arguments smudboy would be making if I watched all of his.

But we're on page 51, and it looks like we're not talking about them anymore. Here's the thing - I have seen "Mass Effect plot hole" discussions countless times, and I have pretty much NEVER seen a true plot hole brought up. There are 2 I can think of in ME2 off the top of my head that people never mention. In general, people just don't understand what plot holes are.

First, how does Shepard get that little datapad with Harbinger on it at the end of ME2? They never see the Reaper form of Harbinger. It makes no sense.

This one is even weaker, but still works knowing what we know about the seeker swarms - how does Mordin have one of the seekers in his lab?

But the things smudboy pointed out, and the things he put in his marketing video? He doesn't seem smart, to me.

I suppose EDI could have mined some information from the Collecor Ship or Base, but you're right, that isn't explained.

I think the seeker thing was discussed earlier, but i didn't take part in it so I don't know what the consensus was on that.

[In Exile]

Montezuma IV wrote...
Fixers0 actually makes a good point. They are hardly, if at all, a part of the story.

I think the real issue Bioware ran into was that now with the success of ME1 and the trilogy being set up, how do they have choices in ME2 that impact ME3. 

They also introduced some conflicts, like the geth/quarians with their respective representatives in Tali/Legion. 

Otherwise they would have had to make ME2 about the reapers actually invading and the protagonist failing. 

Modifié par In Exile, 31 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[Guldhun2]

111987 wrote...

I think the seeker thing was discussed earlier, but i didn't take part in it so I don't know what the consensus was on that.

Apparently miranda mentions something about finding tissue samples from collectors on some colony.

[111987]

Guldhun2 wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the seeker thing was discussed earlier, but i didn't take part in it so I don't know what the consensus was on that.

Apparently miranda mentions something about finding tissue samples from collectors on some colony.

Ah okay, thanks

They probably should have been more explicit about it, but meh.

[nelly21]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Again, a huge topic I feel I should weigh in on but it's super long and someone has probably already said it. Oh well.

I watched squee's videos, and got a pretty good idea of the kinds of arguments smudboy would be making if I watched all of his.

But we're on page 51, and it looks like we're not talking about them anymore. Here's the thing - I have seen "Mass Effect plot hole" discussions countless times, and I have pretty much NEVER seen a true plot hole brought up. There are 2 I can think of in ME2 off the top of my head that people never mention. In general, people just don't understand what plot holes are.

First, how does Shepard get that little datapad with Harbinger on it at the end of ME2? They never see the Reaper form of Harbinger. It makes no sense.

This one is even weaker, but still works knowing what we know about the seeker swarms - how does Mordin have one of the seekers in his lab?

But the things smudboy pointed out, and the things he put in his marketing video? He doesn't seem smart, to me.

Thank you.

The two things you mentioned could be said to be plot holes (though, I guess you could come up with rather simplistic explanations i.e. Harbinger's image could be gathered from the Reaper tech or Arrival). It isn't fully explained in game however, so yes these two could be called plot holes.

[Balek-Vriege]

111987 wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the seeker thing was discussed earlier, but i didn't take part in it so I don't know what the consensus was on that.

Apparently miranda mentions something about finding tissue samples from collectors on some colony.

Ah okay, thanks

They probably should have been more explicit about it, but meh.

(Page 19-20ish of this thread)

After you recruit Mordin and are debriefing him on the Collectors with Jacob, Mordin can be paragon interrupted  (after he goes on a rant/guessing game) by Shepard, in which Shepard says:

Shepard:  "You don't have to sit there and guess.  We collected samples from one of the Colonies.  I'd like you to analyse them and figure out how the Collectors did this."

Mordin later asks Shepard in normal Dialogue:

Mordin:  "I just need need more samples.  More Collector data, tissue samples. Anything you can get, I can use.  Find new tech."

Then it was pointed out that before Freedoms Progress (while asking questions before landing).  This exchange happens:

Shepard:  "What did you find at the other colonies?"

Jacob:  "Nothing.  No signs of attack.  No corpses.  Not even a trace of unusual genetic material to give us a clue."

Meaning that no tissue samples and therefore no seeker bug/other samples could have been collected.

That's not quite true since Freedom's Progress was not completed yet, which is the only Colony at that point in the story where Cerberus arrives first on the scene.  Basically confirmed by the next investigation choice after the previous one:

Shepard:  "What makes you think this investigation will turn up anything new?"

Jacob:  "At other colonies official investigators got there first.  Sometimes looters or salvage teams as well.  We're hoping to be the first ones there this time.  Maybe find clues before anyone else disturbs the scene."

Logical conclusion:  Shepard's Team or Cerberus operatives found a seeker swarm bug at Freedom's Progress.  Also possible is that Cerberus picked up a Seeker bug at another colony that went missing after Freedom's progress but before Horizon (news proves Shepard doesn't go to every attacked colony after Freedom's progress).

Even after that it was suggested there needed to be a direct mention of the Seeker Bug and where it was found.  I was convinced that wouldn't have hurt, but it doesn't make a plot hole because it wasn't specifically mentioned.  One of the few issues that was ironed out if you ask me.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

And as of ME2 neither the Alliance nor the Council trusts Shepard no matter what happened in ME1.  SOmething about possibly faking his death and going over to work with Cerberus...

True it didn't show up in the comic, but that also could have been because there was no huge choice made there. You can choose whether or not you save Wrex, or the Rachni, but you can't choose whether you get the Cipher or not.

Not in the comic.  Only one spot in ME2.  From Morinth, of all people, while she's trying to seduce you postgame.  If in fact the CIpher actually becomes an important feature in ME3, I can imagine a bunch of PS3 players going "What's a Cipher?"

Shepard is still a Spectre though, and in ME3 Shepard isn't working with Cerberus. Which means that trust has been restored. And that doesn't negate the point I made about the other unique connections Shepard had that made him irreplaceable.

Shepard may be a Spectre again.  And is currently standing trial with the Alliance, concerning a batarian system that got blown up.

What should have made Shepard irreplaceable?

"You are unique.  Not just in ability or experience, but in knowledge.  Other than Saren, you are the only person to survive contact with a Prothean beacon.  You have in your mind the Cipher, the cultural knowledge and perspective of the last race to fight the Reapers.  You have spoken with Vigil and even conversed with Sovereign himself.  In short, you know more about our enemy than anyone else in the galaxy". 

Because let's face it, some Shepard are not going to be able to unite the galaxy 

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. He was unique enough to be choosen to be a spectre, a rank that only the very best get.
2. Then he kill a reaper and saved the citidel, which then made him unique amonge the spectres.

That is unique.

1) Being selected as a Spectre candidate is definitely no small thing.  Becoming one is een greater.  But hat only makes him unique in that he's the first human Spectre.  A decision made as much for political as practical reasons. 

Consider, we have seen other Spectres in the game:  Nihlis, Saren, Tela Vasir.  In ME3 the Virmire Survivor will be one too.  Garrus and Anderson have also been looked at as possible Spectre candidates.  So this does not make Shepard unique.  Exceptional, yes.  But how far would Vasir have gotten in tracking down Saren without the beacon visions?

2) Yes he killed a Reaper.  But anyone in his place could have done so at that point:  Ash, Wrex, Garrus, even Tali.  Let alone another Spectre.  What put him in that place at that time to be able to do so?  "Shepard stood for humanity at a key moment"  What made it possible for him to do so?  It was not his sheer symbolic awesomeness. 

Modifié par iakus, 31 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[Sgt Stryker]

iakus wrote...
"You are unique.  Not just in ability or experience, but in knowledge.  Other than Saren, you are the only person to survive contact with a Prothean beacon.  You have in your mind the Cipher, the cultural knowledge and perspective of the last race to fight the Reapers.  You have spoken with Vigil and even conversed with Sovereign himself.  In short, you know more about our enemy than anyone else in the galaxy". 

I hate to invoke an Internet meme, but...

IAKUS

Y U NO WORK FOR BIOWARE

[Iakus]

Fixers0 wrote...

And how do you upgrade a ship without going to a spacedock, would have made some exellent gameplay diversity,

Besides cerberus exels at stealing technology.

I'm less concerned about the lack of spacedock than I am that all you need to do to get a Thanix cannon is mine 15,000 platinum and hit a button.  Meanwhile there's an entire quest to give Garrus the Magic Plot Armor to survive falling debris.

Mining has more to do with preparing for the Suicide Mission than the personal missions do!  That's just wrong.

Couldn't we have gotten a few missions or quest chains to gather componnents, at least?  Pretend there's a central storyline here?

Modifié par iakus, 31 août 2011 - 11:04 .

[Iakus]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

iakus wrote...
"You are unique.  Not just in ability or experience, but in knowledge.  Other than Saren, you are the only person to survive contact with a Prothean beacon.  You have in your mind the Cipher, the cultural knowledge and perspective of the last race to fight the Reapers.  You have spoken with Vigil and even conversed with Sovereign himself.  In short, you know more about our enemy than anyone else in the galaxy". 

I hate to invoke an Internet meme, but...

IAKUS

Y U NO WORK FOR BIOWARE

I don't?
That would explain why I didn't get paid for writing that...

Modifié par iakus, 31 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[aTrueFool]

Re sending probes through the Omega IV relay, in Revelation when first tring to use the Charon relay they sent probes and immediately lost contact.

"In the end, the only way to truly know what was on the other side was to send someone through; someone willing to brave the great unknown and face whatever dangers and challanges waited on the other side."

edit: Damn Romans.

Modifié par aTrueFool, 31 août 2011 - 11:46 .

[Sgt Stryker]

In principle, shouldn't it be possible to program a probe with a VI (or maybe even an AI, if you're adventurous) with a reconnaissance algorithm, followed by a "find the relay and head back through" algorithm?

Now that I think about it, Cerberus could even send in a manned probe with a volunteer (or "volunteer") pilot if the VI option is impossible. That seems like something right up their alley.

[Balek-Vriege]

iakus wrote...

"You are unique.  Not just in ability or experience, but in knowledge.  Other than Saren, you are the only person to survive contact with a Prothean beacon.  You have in your mind the Cipher, the cultural knowledge and perspective of the last race to fight the Reapers.  You have spoken with Vigil and even conversed with Sovereign himself.  In short, you know more about our enemy than anyone else in the galaxy". 

Because let's face it, some Shepard are not going to be able to unite the galaxy 

The exact reason why TIM wanted to revive Shepard, for those who may think that ressurecting Shepard is a plot hole in itself and not so much because of the science arguments.

Hopefully both those points make in into Mass Effect 3.  The Cipher needs to be somewhat important for discovering ancient knowledge and tech, proving why Shepard is needed other than for leadership qualities etc.

The other being that some Shepard's won't be able to unite the Galaxy.  If you made decisions in ME 1 and 2 and don't make decisions to correct or counterbalance them, you should fail or at least have a non-optimal ending.

[Josh123914]

aTrueFool wrote...

Re sending probes through the Omega VI relay, in Revelation when first tring to use the Charon relay they sent probes and immediately lost contact.

"In the end, the only way to truly know what was on the other side was to send someone through; someone willing to brave the great unknown and face whatever dangers and challanges waited on the other side."

Strange, I didn't know there even WAS an Omega 6 relay

[aTrueFool]

Josh123914 wrote...

aTrueFool wrote...

Re sending probes through the Omega VI relay, in Revelation when first tring to use the Charon relay they sent probes and immediately lost contact.

"In the end, the only way to truly know what was on the other side was to send someone through; someone willing to brave the great unknown and face whatever dangers and challanges waited on the other side."

Strange, I didn't know there even WAS an Omega 6 relay

Once again foiled by those Romans.

[Josh123914]

aTrueFool wrote...

Josh123914 wrote...

aTrueFool wrote...

Re sending probes through the Omega VI relay, in Revelation when first tring to use the Charon relay they sent probes and immediately lost contact.

"In the end, the only way to truly know what was on the other side was to send someone through; someone willing to brave the great unknown and face whatever dangers and challanges waited on the other side."

Strange, I didn't know there even WAS an Omega 6 relay

Once again foiled by those Romans.

wow, get with the times (see what I did there lol) besides if you really have trouble with 4s then just put in 4 I ' s like this- IV / IIII= 4

[bduff4545]

I just watched smudboy's video response to squee and I can definitely tell he views his opinion as absolute.

[RoboticWater]

bduff4545 wrote...

I just watched smudboy's video response to squee and I can definitely tell he views his opinion as absolute.

Who views who's opinion as fact, smudboy thinks his own are or squee thinks smudboy's are.

Modifié par BlahDog, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[TuringPoint]

There are endless holes in many of smudboy's arguments. He is very absolute. That very much annoys me.