6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Actually the smashed probe does help. It tells us if we sent the Normandy through it hits an unavoidable wall, so instead of sending the one of a kind priceless starship filled with unrellacable specialists, we could send a ship filled go the gills with explosives to clear said field.

You are underestimating how even the littlest of info can help.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

2. The coucil would not send any spectre because they did not want to start a war. Also, the Alliance has the most advance stelth ship. The would not hand it to the coucil. Any othe ship would rish detection. The fact is if Shepard did not go ....No,one would of gone. And the fact Shepard went after being told not to did not stop the coucil from sending anyone else, which they did not. They were never going to send anyone to Illos.What made Shepard unique is that he/she fully understood the events on hand. The council did not and let politics stop them from doing anything about Illos.

Bolded for emphasis.

Precisely.  Shepard understood.  And it was that understanding that made him uniquely capable of stopping Saren. There are other Spectre and covert operatives (such as the STG unit on Virmire).  Other N7s even.  But only Shepard had the beacon and the Cipher to make sense of the clues.  Being a symbol had nothing to do with that.

[Nashiktal]

Dreman 9999 please read the rest of my posts, you are ignoring why they might be valuable, you are also missing various parts of the argument.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Actually the smashed probe does help. It tells us if we sent the Normandy through it hits an unavoidable wall, so instead of sending the one of a kind priceless starship filled with unrellacable specialists, we could send a ship filled go the gills with explosives to clear said field.

You are underestimating how even the littlest of info can help.

If there was an unavoidable wall, how would the Collectors get through it?

This is once again assuming the smashed probe even returns, which is as likely as winning the lottery (woah, deja vu...I could've sworn I've said this before )

[dreman9999]

littlezack wrote...

I think it's kind of a faulty argument, though. Yes, the main thing that makes Shepard unique is his vision, but I think it's a little more than that.

Without his connection to Anderson, he would likely have never gotten off the Citadel.
Without his commanding of the Normandy, he would never have gotten past the Geth blockade.

It's difficult to judge how more or less skilled in battle Shepard is than those other people because the player is in complete control of his battle skill. We know that, physically, Shepard is pretty much an example of a peak human and one of the best soldiers the Alliance has to offer, if not THE best. Could someone else command the respect he did, do the things he did under the same circumstances? Maybe, maybe not. It's supposition.

The fact that he/she was the top human candidate for a spectre speaks for it self. That got him on the normady in the first place with Captin Anderson. Yes, the sr-1 is part of the reason why,too. But he/she would never get on the ship if Shep was not the best soldier in the alliance.

[Nashiktal]

I would assume the collectors could manipulate said wall. After all, why leave any chances for visitors?

Besides, I was following YOUR example of the probe being smashed by said wall. Make up your mind, is the probe smashed by an unavoidable wall, or not? If not we get several seconds maybe minutes of footage that shows any defended in the area.

[Notlikeyoucare]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Becoming a spectre is unique in itself let alone being a first of a speices.
2.That's the thing. He/she was the only one. The council never gave the ok for Shepard to go after Saren on Ilos which his/her disobeying them was key to the victory. No other spectre would be on hand because they neverwas allow to be set there.Wrex never would have been ether. Shepard at that time was the one and only one to do it. Also, Shepard saving the citidel made him/her into an Icon. Shepard became an icon because he/she saved the citidel, not because he/she an icon they were able to save the citidel.

1)  Not unique.  There is more than one Spectre.  Therefore, becoming one is special, exceptional.  But not unique.
2) Now ask yourself, "Why was Shepard so determined to go to Ilos?"

TIM seemed to have the whole icon thing mixed up.  He says that what makes Shepard unique is what he represents, that he's a symbol for humanity.  He doesn't seem to take into account what it was about Shepard that got him there to begin with.  The human behind the legend.  Why no other Spectre would have violated the Council's orders.

1. So how many people can become a spectre? No much. An extremely small amount can be even considered. Being a Spectre is unique in itself.
2.Your still not understanding..... Though Shepard was at the right place and time to become the hero of the citidel. The reason he/she was even their is because he/she is the best humanity had to offer to be a spectre. Being even consider is unique because a small amount can be qualified, let allow become one. You need to understand what the word unique is.

1) The point being there are other Spectres.  It's an elite group, but Shepard is not unique, as in one of a kind, for being one of them.  The only aspect of it that makes Shepard unique is he's the only human member.

2)  Let me ask this.  What if the Council decided to send a more experienced Spectre after Saren?  Say, Tela Vasir?   She gets the same tips and visits the same places Shepard did in ME1.  What would have happened differently?  

Or say the Alliance decided to take matters into their own hands, and sends Eden Prime survivor Jacob Taylor into the Traverse to find Saren?  Repeat with other characters:  Nihlis, if he had survived.  Captain Anderson.  Garrus, Anyone you could think of.  What did Shepard have that they didn't?  How did he succeed when all the others would certainly have failed?  What made him "unique" in the truest sense fo the word?

1.The consept of a Spectre is unique among millitary branch. You have to bea certin type of person to be one. The type of person is unique.
2. The coucil would not send any spectre because they did not want to start a war. Also, the Alliance has the most advance stelth ship. The would not hand it to the coucil. Any othe ship would rish detection. The fact is if Shepard did not go ....No,one would of gone. And the fact Shepard went after being told not to did not stop the coucil from sending anyone else, which they did not. They were never going to send anyone to Illos.What made Shepard unique is that he/she fully understood the events on hand. The council did not and let politics stop them from doing anything about Illos.

1. No, it is not a unique branch. It is unique in and of itself but that does not make the individuals of that group any more unique than a person of extreme military competence.

2. No, they Council would not send a FLEET in and instead a Spectre because they did not want to trigger a war, you have it backwards. But of course towards the end they flip flop for the absolute convenience of the plot and nothing else.

[Shotokanguy]

I feel like I want to get into this, but at the same time it all seems so pointless.

[Nashiktal]

(returned probe? We just said the probe was loaded with aha ten entanglement, keep up man!)

[Notlikeyoucare]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2. The coucil would not send any spectre because they did not want to start a war. Also, the Alliance has the most advance stelth ship. The would not hand it to the coucil. Any othe ship would rish detection. The fact is if Shepard did not go ....No,one would of gone. And the fact Shepard went after being told not to did not stop the coucil from sending anyone else, which they did not. They were never going to send anyone to Illos.What made Shepard unique is that he/she fully understood the events on hand. The council did not and let politics stop them from doing anything about Illos.

Bolded for emphasis.

Precisely.  Shepard understood.  And it was that understanding that made him uniquely capable of stopping Saren. There are other Spectre and covert operatives (such as the STG unit on Virmire).  Other N7s even.  But only Shepard had the beacon and the Cipher to make sense of the clues.  Being a symbol had nothing to do with that.

This is also true.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

I would assume the collectors could manipulate said wall. After all, why leave any chances for visitors?

Besides, I was following YOUR example of the probe being smashed by said wall. Make up your mind, is the probe smashed by an unavoidable wall, or not? If not we get several seconds maybe minutes of footage that shows any defended in the area.

I wasn't the one who brough up the unavodiable steel wall.

I'm a little lost right now. Seriously, what is your argument? That a second of footage from a probe before being smahed would help?

EDIT: I understand that this hypothetical probe has QE technology. This super advanced, expensive technology gives us an extra second of footage...hooray!

Really this debate is getting a bit ridiculous. I believe I have given enough evidence as to why sending a probe through would not improve the Normandy's chances in any significant way. I have shown why one could reason that the course of action taken in the game is logical. Just because you would do it differently doesn't make the way in the game illogical, nor is it indicative of bad writing or a plot hole.

Modifié par 111987, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[100k]

111987 wrote...

Quantam Entanglement allows lag free communication across any distance, yes. However EDI outlines why QE technology isn't more common. One pair costs as much as a comm bouy. Cerberus doesn't have unlimited resources; they can't just install all of their probes with these things.

I knew you'd say this. This point is muted the instant we look at the risk vs reward aspect of the mission. Paying large amounts of money to protect the best team in the galaxy is worth the price. And before you attempt to argue, this is Cerberus we're talking about. Not only can they afford it, but the idea of "all for the greater good" means that its something they would do.

The Reapers are not gods. Why would they construct a PLANET, and then the approriatley sized shields for it, when a base is much more efficient, especially given the Collector's population size. The Reapers are powerful, but they have not shown anything even remotley close to having the technology needed to create a planet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere Please read this.

Why use a planet? Because it is entirely possible (and probable) that the Collector population exceeds several million. 

And the Reapers have shown that they have the technology to create a planet/dyson sphere. They created the Citadel, the actual Collector Base, and possibly planet sized constructions within the planet of Ploba (and some other worlds). 

FURTHERMORE

Legion explained to Shepard that the geth are preparing to create the equivalent of a Dyson Sphere. The Geth are several million times less advanced than the Reapers. Thus, it can safely be assumed that the Reapers could create a dyson sphere.

Like I said in another post, even if there are a fleet of ships, it's not like Shepard wouldn't go through. He's not going to get any support from the Council and Alliance. He doesn't have a choice. Sure, would it be smarter to bring a fleet with him? Of course! But that isn't an option.

1) If Shepard had to face down a fleet with ONLY the Normandy -- he wouldn't do it. It would be the equivalent of jumping into a star. He should understand that making suicidal moves like that is incredibly stupid. In ME2, he makes a leap of faith that is highly stupid, but has a grain of hope due to the IFF. If he scouted the relay for even a few seconds, the chances of a successful mission would dramatically increase. There is no arguing against this. 

The Reapers wiped out the vast majority of the Protheans. There aren't billions or millions of Collectors running around. Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth, thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper, because they want to be stealthy.

Once again, you're clearly not grasping the in-game content. The Protheans were cloned. CLONED. Like the krogan. Manufactured like the geth. And where are you going to house a vast population of clones?

So what were you trying to say?

Modifié par 100k, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .

[Nashiktal]

You are lost.

My steel wall was me pointing out how we don't know what's on the otherside. It's about as plausible as anything else, since we so not know. As it turns out, the wall does exist as debris.

If we sent s probe through, with quantum entanglement so we can see, and it smashes into a wall, we just saved the Normandy from a quick and embarrassing end.

If we send the probe through and is not instantly smashed, we get to see the defenses on the other side, and we can prepare counter measures accordingly.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2. The coucil would not send any spectre because they did not want to start a war. Also, the Alliance has the most advance stelth ship. The would not hand it to the coucil. Any othe ship would rish detection. The fact is if Shepard did not go ....No,one would of gone. And the fact Shepard went after being told not to did not stop the coucil from sending anyone else, which they did not. They were never going to send anyone to Illos.What made Shepard unique is that he/she fully understood the events on hand. The council did not and let politics stop them from doing anything about Illos.

Bolded for emphasis.

Precisely.  Shepard understood.  And it was that understanding that made him uniquely capable of stopping Saren. There are other Spectre and covert operatives (such as the STG unit on Virmire).  Other N7s even.  But only Shepard had the beacon and the Cipher to make sense of the clues.  Being a symbol had nothing to do with that.

I never said being a symble had anything to do with Shepard saving the citadel and becoming a universal hero. Many time I said Shepard became an Icon because he save the citadel, not that because he/she is an icon the citadel was save. Shepard became the face of humanity after he save the citadel thus making it the main reason TIM revived him/her after Shep died.
We are saying the same thing.
Your saying the fact that Shepard save the citadel makes him an icon and I am saying the same thing. Only I am saying that it 's the reason why TIM revived Shepard. BECAUSE HE BECAME AN ICON UNIVERALLY AS THE FACE OF HUMANITY AND THE PERSON THAT SAVETHE CITADEL. With that recontion alown and the fact he kill a reaper will put him/her as a key advisor during the reaper war. Add in the fact that to get to Shepard you need to work with the alliance and in one full move humanity is the most key part of the war and is given the most power over how to fight it. These are the 2 major things TIM want for humanity. And Tim can easilly control humanity.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

You are lost.

My steel wall was me pointing out how we don't know what's on the otherside. It's about as plausible as anything else, since we so not know. As it turns out, the wall does exist as debris.

If we sent s probe through, with quantum entanglement so we can see, and it smashes into a wall, we just saved the Normandy from a quick and embarrassing end.

If we send the probe through and is not instantly smashed, we get to see the defenses on the other side, and we can prepare counter measures accordingly.

But sending a probe through and getting smashed doesn't change anything, because a probe doesn't have kinetic barriers. The Normandy does, so even if they knew about the debris field, it wouldn't be an issue because the Normandy's standard barriers would protect them.

[Notlikeyoucare]

I really don't understand how at least trying to send an expendable probe through is somehow more stupid then sending all of our assets into the dark blindly just to hope they are prepared enough to face whats on the other side.

[dreman9999]

Nashiktal wrote...

You are lost.

My steel wall was me pointing out how we don't know what's on the otherside. It's about as plausible as anything else, since we so not know. As it turns out, the wall does exist as debris.

If we sent s probe through, with quantum entanglement so we can see, and it smashes into a wall, we just saved the Normandy from a quick and embarrassing end.

If we send the probe through and is not instantly smashed, we get to see the defenses on the other side, and we can prepare counter measures accordingly.

Again, they would be shot down by the attack probes. We would learn nothing but that we will be attacked when we enter....which we already know and prepared for.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

I really don't understand how at least trying to send an expendable probe through is somehow more stupid then sending all of our assets into the dark blindly just to hope they are prepared enough to face whats on the other side.

Because sending a probe that would easilly be detected by an enemy that will easilly detect them will tell them we are about to attack.

[Nashiktal]

Would it? That debris isn't simple chunks. The debris was giant hulks of leftover spaceships that can easily destroy the Normandy despite kinetic barriers. The barriers either way only protect against small, quick strikes .

It does NOT protect from direct, head on impact that they almost had in game. Of course they didn't know they could dodge that debris in game. It was luck.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Alright, now I'm gonna let y'all finish, but it's moot not mute.

[Nashiktal]

Doesn't fly dremen, the collectors ready know we are coming anyways, and besides ships apparently go through the relay all the time.

You can see quarian ships in the debris.

[Leonia]

dreman9999 wrote...

Again, they would be shot down by the attack probes. We would learn nothing but that we will be attacked when we enter....which we already know and prepared for.

You could time how long it takes the attack to occur and plan accordingly, I think an episode of Babylon 5 represents this tactic very well.

[dreman9999]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Quantam Entanglement allows lag free communication across any distance, yes. However EDI outlines why QE technology isn't more common. One pair costs as much as a comm bouy. Cerberus doesn't have unlimited resources; they can't just install all of their probes with these things.

I knew you'd say this. This point is muted the instant we look at the risk vs reward aspect of the mission. Paying large amounts of money to protect the best team in the galaxy is worth the price. And before you attempt to argue, this is Cerberus we're talking about. Not only can they afford it, but the idea of "all for the greater good" means that its something they would do.

The Reapers are not gods. Why would they construct a PLANET, and then the approriatley sized shields for it, when a base is much more efficient, especially given the Collector's population size. The Reapers are powerful, but they have not shown anything even remotley close to having the technology needed to create a planet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere Please read this.

Why use a planet? Because it is entirely possible (and probable) that the Collector population exceeds several million. 

And the Reapers have shown that they have the technology to create a planet/dyson sphere. They created the Citadel, the actual Collector Base, and possibly planet sized constructions within the planet of Ploba (and some other worlds). 

FURTHERMORE

Legion explained to Shepard that the geth are preparing to create the equivalent of a Dyson Sphere. The Geth are several million times less advanced than the Reapers. Thus, it can safely be assumed that the Reapers could create a dyson sphere.

Like I said in another post, even if there are a fleet of ships, it's not like Shepard wouldn't go through. He's not going to get any support from the Council and Alliance. He doesn't have a choice. Sure, would it be smarter to bring a fleet with him? Of course! But that isn't an option.

1) If Shepard had to face down a fleet with ONLY the Normandy -- he wouldn't do it. It would be the equivalent of jumping into a star. He should understand that making suicidal moves like that is incredibly stupid. In ME2, he makes a leap of faith that is highly stupid, but has a grain of hope due to the IFF. If he scouted the relay for even a few seconds, the chances of a successful mission would dramatically increase. There is no arguing against this. 

The Reapers wiped out the vast majority of the Protheans. There aren't billions or millions of Collectors running around. Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth, thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper, because they want to be stealthy.

Once again, you're clearly not grasping the in-game content. The Protheans were cloned. CLONED. Like the krogan. Manufactured like the geth. And where are you going to house a vast population of clones?

So what were you trying to say?

1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

[Nashiktal]

No we will learn the weapon systems of our enemy, and come up with countermeasures. Occuli with drilling beams?eta install some guardian lasers so we don't have to fight them in our deck.

What is so wrong about eliminating dangers? About fight less battles, about increasing our chances?

[111987]

[quote]100k wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

Quantam Entanglement allows lag free communication across any distance, yes. However EDI outlines why QE technology isn't more common. One pair costs as much as a comm bouy. Cerberus doesn't have unlimited resources; they can't just install all of their probes with these things.[/quote]

I knew you'd say this. This point is muted the instant we look at the risk vs reward aspect of the mission. Paying large amounts of money to protect the best team in the galaxy is worth the price. And before you attempt to argue, this is Cerberus we're talking about. Not only can they afford it, but the idea of "all for the greater good" means that its something they would do.

[quote]The Reapers are not gods. Why would they construct a PLANET, and then the approriatley sized shields for it, when a base is much more efficient, especially given the Collector's population size. The Reapers are powerful, but they have not shown anything even remotley close to having the technology needed to create a planet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere Please read this.[/quote]

Why use a planet? Because it is entirely possible (and probable) that the Collector population exceeds several million. 

And the Reapers have shown that they are nearing the technology to create a planet/dyson sphere. They created the Citadel, the actual Collector Base, and possibly planet sized constructions within the planet of Ploba (and some other worlds). 

FURTHERMORE

Legion explained to Shepard that the geth are preparing to create the equivalent of a Dyson Sphere. The Geth are several million times less advanced than the Reapers. Thus, it can safely be assumed that the Reapers could create a dyson sphere.

[quote]Like I said in another post, even if there are a fleet of ships, it's not like Shepard wouldn't go through. He's not going to get any support from the Council and Alliance. He doesn't have a choice. Sure, would it be smarter to bring a fleet with him? Of course! But that isn't an option.[/quote]

1) If Shepard had to face down a fleet with ONLY the Normandy -- he wouldn't do it. It would be the equivalent of jumping into a star. He should understand that making suicidal moves like that is incredibly stupid. In ME2, he makes a leap of faith that is highly stupid, but has a grain of hope due to the IFF. If he scouted the relay for even a few seconds, the chances of a successful mission would dramatically increase. There is no arguing against this. 

[quote[The Reapers wiped out the vast majority of the Protheans. There aren't billions or millions of Collectors running around. Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth, thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper, because they want to be stealthy.[/quote]

Once again, you're clearly not grasping the in-game content. The Protheans were cloned. CLONED. Like the krogan. Manufactured like the geth. And where are you going to house a vast population of clones?

So what were you trying to say?
[/quote]

As I said in other posts, QE tech doesn't make a shred of difference. All we get is a second of footage before we hit the debris field and lose the probe. This doesn't help us because the Normandy has kinetic barriers which would automatically protect against the debris field, while a probe wouldn't. Furthermore, there is no proof QE tech can even be installed on something as small as a probe.

A planet cannot fit in the galactic core; it would be consumed by a black hole or star. And I hope you aren't really claiming that constructing a 45 kilometer space station is evidence of being able to construct a PLANET...are you?

Legion said the closest equivalent was a dyson sphere. That does not mean that their megastructure is the same size as a dyson sphere; it just means it serves a similar function. Come on, how could a dyson sphere fit in the galactic core? Let's be realistic here.

I do understand the in-game content. I know the Collectors have been cloned. I also know there is not a planet's worth of them because a). a planet could not exist in the galactic core and . " Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have
abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth,
thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper,
because they want to be stealthy"