6494 réponses à ce sujet

[100k]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

You're going in circles. Just stop. Recon > improve attack. It has been key to just about every war in history -- not just of humans, but of all of the races. Every time. End of discussion.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Would it? That debris isn't simple chunks. The debris was giant hulks of leftover spaceships that can easily destroy the Normandy despite kinetic barriers. The barriers either way only protect against small, quick strikes .

It does NOT protect from direct, head on impact that they almost had in game. Of course they didn't know they could dodge that debris in game. It was luck.

Kinetic barriers on some ships, such as dreadnaughts, can withstand energy yields in the kilotons. I wouldn't call that a small strike.

The Normandy doesn't have those kinds of shields, but they do have strong enough shields to withstand debris. That even happens during the flight sequence in the cut scene.

[Nashiktal]

Again, the debris is large enough that direct impact would render kinetic barriers useless. Knowing it's there makes a world of difference, I am fairly sure the titanic would have loved to know that icebergs location.

[Nashiktal]

The Normandy never takes a head on collision, the normandy does hit it's wing on the collector base.

Huge difference.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Again, the debris is large enough that direct impact would render kinetic barriers useless. Knowing it's there makes a world of difference, I am fairly sure the titanic would have loved to know that icebergs location.

This is incorrect. The Normandy's barriers to deflect debris. Watch the cutscene again. If you don't upgrade your barriers, some of the debris gets through, but the barriers still last long enough to get through the debris field.

[dreman9999]

leonia42 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Again, they would be shot down by the attack probes. We would learn nothing but that we will be attacked when we enter....which we already know and prepared for.

You could time how long it takes the attack to occur and plan accordingly, I think an episode of Babylon 5 represents this tactic very well.

But it an unknown area, the info would provide nothing.The best it would provide is location of attack...over time. And that would be only the surface of the area. No depth or numbers of attacker would be made. The data would be too inconclusive. Though with a massive amount of probe we can get a map of the surface but it would never provide a place of bypass. Just a map telling we don't know whats under the surface. AND THE FACT WE ARE TELLING THE ENEMY WE ARE ATTACKING.

[Sgt Stryker]

111987 wrote...

As I said in other posts, QE tech doesn't make a shred of difference. All we get is a second of footage before we hit the debris field and lose the probe. This doesn't help us because the Normandy has kinetic barriers which would automatically protect against the debris field, while a probe wouldn't. Furthermore, there is no proof QE tech can even be installed on something as small as a probe.

If a personal hardsuit can have kinetic barriers, then why can't a probe? Granted, it would be nowhere near as strong as a starship's kinetic barriers. As far as quantum entanglement communicators are concerned, EDI did mention that they are expensive to produce, if I remember correctly.

Out of curiosity, it would be nice to know how many probes the SB sent through, and how many actually came back. Judging by the lack of Reaper IFF, I bet it probably was a lot like playing the lottery!

[111987]

100k wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

You're going in circles. Just stop. Recon > improve attack. It has been key to just about every war in history -- not just of humans, but of all of the races. Every time. End of discussion.

You are, of course, correct. It is undeniable that recon is better than no recon. The argument I am making is that in this particular, unique situation, recon would not work and thus not help.

[Nashiktal]

I don't think you are realizing the scale of things. If the normandy were to hitany of that debris head on, it would be the same in principle as the relay being struck by the planetoids.
The Normandy is moving fast and if it hit any of that large debris head on, it would have been destroyed.

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Again, the debris is large enough that direct impact would render kinetic barriers useless. Knowing it's there makes a world of difference, I am fairly sure the titanic would have loved to know that icebergs location.

This is incorrect. The Normandy's barriers to deflect debris. Watch the cutscene again. If you don't upgrade your barriers, some of the debris gets through, but the barriers still last long enough to get through the debris field.

Exactly, and what would it matter if we knew the debris was their to avoid  if the collector are ready to strikeat us the moment we enter.

[Nashiktal]

So we shouldn't at least try recon, even if does not risk anything?

Mind you already admitted the enemy knew we were coming.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...
I don't know how else I can say it. Sending probes through WOULD NOT HELP. I have outlined why many times.

Tactical/Strategic information on the enemy ALWAYS helps. Period.
Ever seen how SWAT teams and commando's plan assaults? They don't go in blind.

And so what if there were multiple Collector Cruisers? Let's say some magical probe got through and told us that. So, what, we say 'oh well, we tried' and just give up?

No, you prepare better. You gather more ships.

[Nashiktal]

I said DIRECT impact, all the cutscenes are glancing blows grinding against the side. The closest thing to a direct impact in the entire sequence, is the Normandy striking it's wing, which does not hit the body.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

You're going in circles. Just stop. Recon > improve attack. It has been key to just about every war in history -- not just of humans, but of all of the races. Every time. End of discussion.

You are, of course, correct. It is undeniable that recon is better than no recon. The argument I am making is that in this particular, unique situation, recon would not work and thus not help.

And as we already pointed out, you are wrong.

[Notlikeyoucare]

The element of suprise means nothing because WE don't even know what we're going up against.Even if they didn't know we were about to attack they could have automated defense turrets, alarms, anything, we don't know, which is why we'd send a probe through or at least try an alternate feesable method of gaining information. Point is, the element of suprise is only useful if we actually know what we're suprising and exactly how and what we need to do in order to take advantage of that suprise, be it gaining more tools or knowing our forces of opposition. It doesn't have to be successful, but the story must explain our course of action and give a good enough reason as to why its feesable.

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

littlezack wrote...

2)  Let me ask this.  What if the Council decided to send a more
experienced Spectre after Saren?  Say, Tela Vasir?   She gets the same
tips and visits the same places Shepard did in ME1.  What would have
happened differently?  

Or say the Alliance decided to take
matters into their own hands, and sends Eden Prime survivor Jacob Taylor
into the Traverse to find Saren?  Repeat with other characters:
 Nihlis, if he had survived.  Captain Anderson.  Garrus, Anyone you
could think of.  What did Shepard have that they didn't?  How did he
succeed when all the others would certainly have failed?  What made him
"unique" in the truest sense fo the word?

 If they sent Tela, she would never have caught Saren, because she never experienced the Prothean beacon, and she never would have found out he was going to Ilos. So the universe would likely be doomed.

AHEM!...underlined bub....

[Nashiktal]

If there was more than one collector ship? You plan, sort through tactics, prepare weapons, anything to give you the edge, and if possible gather ships, maybe mercs.

Why do you discount information? Shep is going to go in no matter what, so you might as well ensures he gets as much info as we can.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...
I don't know how else I can say it. Sending probes through WOULD NOT HELP. I have outlined why many times.

Tactical/Strategic information on the enemy ALWAYS helps. Period.
Ever seen how SWAT teams and commando's plan assaults? They don't go in blind.

And so what if there were multiple Collector Cruisers? Let's say some magical probe got through and told us that. So, what, we say 'oh well, we tried' and just give up?

No, you prepare better. You gather more ships.

I'm not arguing that recon wouldn't help. I'm saying recon is impossible in this situation..

And where do we gather these ships?

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

You're going in circles. Just stop. Recon > improve attack. It has been key to just about every war in history -- not just of humans, but of all of the races. Every time. End of discussion.

You are, of course, correct. It is undeniable that recon is better than no recon. The argument I am making is that in this particular, unique situation, recon would not work and thus not help.

And as we already pointed out, you are wrong.

You have done no such thing. You have not shown me how a single second of footage would improve the Normandy's chances. If you have and I missed it, I apologize.

[Nashiktal]

The very fact you know there are two ships rather than one helps immensely, or would you rather discover you will be in a crossfire after you jumped in?

[100k]

111987 wrote...

As I said in other posts, QE tech doesn't make a shred of difference. All we get is a second of footage before we hit the debris field and lose the probe.

Which is more information about the wearabout of the other end of the relay than has every been given in the history of the galaxy. Wreckage on the other side of the relay should be huge news. And in any case we --

This doesn't help us because the Normandy has kinetic barriers which would automatically protect against the debris field, while a probe wouldn't.

Furthermore, there is no proof QE tech can even be installed on something as small as a probe/

You have no reason to doubt Cerberus. If they revived a dead person (days dead), created a super biotic child, almost mastered AI mind control, and rebuilt the best ship in the galaxy, creating a probe with a communcations device should be a joke.

A planet cannot fit in the galactic core; it would be consumed by a black hole or star. And I hope you aren't really claiming that constructing a 45 kilometer space station is evidence of being able to construct a PLANET...are you?

Did you read about the supercomputers within Ploba, yet? I've referenced it several times.

Legion said the closest equivalent was a dyson sphere. That does not mean that their megastructure is the same size as a dyson sphere; it just means it serves a similar function. Come on, how could a dyson sphere fit in the galactic core? Let's be realistic here.

A dyson sphere is the size of a star -- to quote you. The core consists mostly of stars and black holes, right? Can you put two and two together?

I do understand the in-game content.

This doesn't help us because the Normandy has kinetic barriers which would automatically protect against the debris field, while a probe wouldn't.

I know the Collectors have been cloned. I also know there is not a planet's worth of them because a). a planet could not exist in the galactic core --

Shepard discounts this exact statement in ME2 by simply explaining that the Reapers are way too advanced for normal comprehension. Your point is mute.

" Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have
abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth,
thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper,
because they want to be stealthy"

I will tell you that. You know why? Because the Reapers come to the galaxy every 50,000 years to harvest all life. Sending in Collectors to do their dirty work isn't part of their plan. 

You haven't brought anything new to your discussion. You've just reused the same argument over and over and over again in different words. When explained how things actually work in ME, you simply ignore those points. Just stop.

Modifié par 100k, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

If there was more than one collector ship? You plan, sort through tactics, prepare weapons, anything to give you the edge, and if possible gather ships, maybe mercs.

Why do you discount information? Shep is going to go in no matter what, so you might as well ensures he gets as much info as we can.

What tactics are you suggesting we use against multiple Collector ships, exactly? We already have the most powerful weapon possible in the Thanix Cannon, the best armor and shields; you can't improve the Normandy any further.

Where are you going to get ships? What mercs are going to sign up for your suicide mission, and how would a merc ship pose any threat to a Collector Cruiser.

[dreman9999]

100k wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. If it was a fleet, more than one ship would be sent. Sending a probe would just tell a fleet some one is about to attack and the probe would be shot down by attack probe way before any of sheps probes would see a fleet....If they were one.

You're going in circles. Just stop. Recon > improve attack. It has been key to just about every war in history -- not just of humans, but of all of the races. Every time. End of discussion.

What are you talking about? What is key? I understand mapping out an area of attack is important but not when the enemy know you are attacking and the combat streghtis so unbalance.  If a small man  face a big manwith both of them not knowing the other stregthd, taking time to read the big man s weaknesses will only give the big man time to over power the small man. It's better for the small weaker man to surprise the big stronger man so he can land a strong critcal hit to give the small man and advatage to win the fight.
All though "probes"would do is tell the collectors the margin of error for drift for any one entering the relay to their location. The colllectors would just place attack prode/sdroid(swhat ever) in the location the  probes land in mass so that when the normady finally arrives they are ready to blast it to hell.
You tactic is only good with enemies on equal ground, not one with off balanced odds. If the probes could get in with out the collectors knowing it would be a good plan, but they detect anything that enters, so it would never work and risk the ship to much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

The reason why Shepard is unique and worth bringing back to face the Reapers is because of the beacon, and everything he learned as a result.

Except anoyne else who approached the beacon would have gotten the same visions. If Shep didn't push Ash, she'd get the visions. Would she be abel to do what Shep did? Probably.

And of what use were the Prothen visions againt the Collectors? Zero. The vision had value in ME1. The purpose of the visions was to warn about the reapers. TIM already knows.

[Fixers0]

111987 wrote...
As I said in other posts, QE tech doesn't make a shred of difference. All we get is a second of footage before we hit the debris field and lose the probe. This doesn't help us because the Normandy has kinetic barriers which would automatically protect against the debris field, while a probe wouldn't. Furthermore, there is no proof QE tech can even be installed on something as small as a probe.

You still seemingly miss the point,the fact probes even returned is the thing, and again it doesn't matter how scratched they were, this means that the probe must have been able to return to the sister relay, before getting damaged, or the other way around.

111987 wrote...
A planet cannot fit in the galactic core; it would be consumed by a black hole or star. And I hope you aren't really claiming that constructing a 45 kilometer space station is evidence of being able to construct a PLANET...are you?

Why not? the reapers might just as well forge an artificial world, it might be smaller or larger, if they were able to establish a safe zone in the galactic core, i don't why they could't if it was planet.

And before going through the relay, there is abo****ly no way to find out what is there, expect maybe sending through a probe, the Reapers could litterly put anything there what the wish to be there.

111987 wrote...
I do understand the in-game content. I know the Collectors have been cloned. I also know there is not a planet's worth of them because a). a planet could not exist in the galactic core

Why not? this could just have to be a barren rock, roughly the same size as the base,

111987 wrote...
and . " Like I said, if they had those kind of numbers, they could have
abducted Earth easily. Don't tell me they wouldn't have abducted Earth,
thus gaining the resources they need to complete their Human-Reaper,
because they want to be stealthy"

Because you know, they have to go through arcturus to reach it and there are like 100 Alliance ships stationed there, if the Collectors would have used multiple ships, i would roughly count 2-3 Alliance ships per cruiser, meaning that they will get thorn apart regardless.

Modifié par Fixers0, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:34 .