6494 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
As I said before, what your seeing on Haestrom is the shield generator going out, not the shields being attacked directly.

Is this actually said in the game?  "Fries your shields" is the phrase that's used repeatedly, and isn't specific as to what's going on. 

Given the other observable facts, it is highly unlikely that the barrier generators themselves are being affected, or the Normandy and the shuttle would also lose their barriers.  The shuttle has to spend longer in direct exposure to the star than Shep ever does.  And all the other equipment that is not harmed  is exposed for just as long as the barrier generators in the armor.  The radios and computers built into the same armor are not affected. 

Unless you can come up with a canon-compatible way in which the squad's kinetic barrier systems are more vulnerable than any other piece of equipment they're carrying, you have an unaddressed contradition in your theory. 

Given how the barriers work and what they do, they'd be affected by particle radiation.  We see the personal barriers fail when exposed directly to the star.  Draw a straight line. 

And again, the shell of a gun or the metal in an armored suit would not be enough to step particle radiation energetic enough to have just punched clean through Haestrom's magnetic field and through miles and miles of atmosphere. 

That's the thing, all forms of rediation can be block with layers of cover. Which was my point in  my sorce I put up, Particl Radiation maybe stop by sheilds, but that does not mean it's th only radiation in an environment. Now, I never said it stops the radiation, only the it reduses it. In all form of radiation protection Layers of Metal and material is used  to hold it back. Hence sorce....http://en.wikipedia....hielding_design
Are you really telling me layers of high dense metal does not stop or delay radiation?

On point the radiation you deal with on Haestrom is solar radiation. http://www.youtube.c...864ynxhbk#t=17s
The fact that life can still live on Haestrom and you are on it with no helmet on and your only effective in the sun show it's not heavly hit with partical radiation. Especilly since it's in solar wind, cosmic radiation, and neutron flux in nuclear reactors. http://en.wikipedia....es_of_radiation.

Also, it's stated the sun light on the planet fries tech.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5D4jXy4XIw&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s


Your walking out in the sun. Your Shield generator is being fried being that it's tech and as it's being fried the genorator is losing power. THat's what your seeing. It's not the shield themselves be degrading.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

Nothing of value?

Arrival stopped the Reapers from conquering the galaxy! That's just as valuable as stopping Sovereign at the Battle of the Citadel.

What happened in ME1 that was so much more significant than in ME2? The major choices were

Save/Kill Rachni Queen
Save/Kill Council
Anderson/Udina

The major ME2 decisions were

Save/destroy greybox
Encourage/Discourage Quarian War against Geth
Destroy/Re-write Heretic Geth (or if you didn't do it at all, deal with the consequence of all Geth serving the Reapers in ME3...that's HUGE
Save/Destroy Genophage
Save/Destroy Collector Base

Since we don't know how any of the major choices from ME1 or ME2 will play out in ME3, you can't say nothing of value happened.

What I mean by nothing of value was that at the end of ME 2 we are in the EXACT same spot that we were at the end of ME 1 besides the knowledge of The Collectors being Protheans (which doesn't matter anyway since we killed them) and the recton of Reapers being semi organic constructs. The Reapers are still coming and we have no idea on how to stop them, nor have we tried to find out.

First of all, the Reapers being part organic is not a retcon. It was never stated that the Reapers were fully mechanical. Just because that's the impression you got doesn't make it a retcon.

The plot of ME3 is figuring out how to stop the Reapers. And until you see how the impact of the ME2 choices play out, you shouldn't say they don't matter in stopping the Reapers.

On the contrary, the Reaper reveal is very much a retcon. As per Sovereign's speech, they see organic life as nothing, they are the pinnacle of evolution, soooooooooo why do they need to procreate with different species? Why would they make organics part of themselves if they are so below them? The writers are going against what has been established in ME 1

And no, we can't chop this up to Sovereign lying or bragging because we have nothing to infer that, he had no reason to lie.

"Organic life is nothing but a mutation, an accident" Reffering to us, which implies that they aren't organic life or an accident. Sovereign is drawing a contrast.

"What do you want from us? Slaves? Resources?"

" ..... You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance."

"Who built you?"

"You're not even alive! You're just a machine!"

The writers clearly wanted to convey the point that they aren't organic. Yet in ME 2 a massive info dump comes out of absolutely nowhere. EDI is partly Reaper how come she doesn't know then? How come the science team doesn't discover this on the Reaper? why doesn't EDI discover this on the Reaper? If Iron Giant was the first of its kind this would all make sense. But no, EDI somehow draws the conclusion that EVERY SINGLE Reaper is now suddenly partly organic just by examining Iron Giant. How does she know this? If she can figure this out by scanning him, why didn't she figure this out sooner?

What do you know, the secret word of the day two days in a row is: CONTRIVED.

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

Nothing of value?

Arrival stopped the Reapers from conquering the galaxy! That's just as valuable as stopping Sovereign at the Battle of the Citadel.

What happened in ME1 that was so much more significant than in ME2? The major choices were

Save/Kill Rachni Queen
Save/Kill Council
Anderson/Udina

The major ME2 decisions were

Save/destroy greybox
Encourage/Discourage Quarian War against Geth
Destroy/Re-write Heretic Geth (or if you didn't do it at all, deal with the consequence of all Geth serving the Reapers in ME3...that's HUGE
Save/Destroy Genophage
Save/Destroy Collector Base

Since we don't know how any of the major choices from ME1 or ME2 will play out in ME3, you can't say nothing of value happened.

What I mean by nothing of value was that at the end of ME 2 we are in the EXACT same spot that we were at the end of ME 1 besides the knowledge of The Collectors being Protheans (which doesn't matter anyway since we killed them) and the recton of Reapers being semi organic constructs. The Reapers are still coming and we have no idea on how to stop them, nor have we tried to find out.

First of all, the Reapers being part organic is not a retcon. It was never stated that the Reapers were fully mechanical. Just because that's the impression you got doesn't make it a retcon.

The plot of ME3 is figuring out how to stop the Reapers. And until you see how the impact of the ME2 choices play out, you shouldn't say they don't matter in stopping the Reapers.

On the contrary, the Reaper reveal is very much a retcon. As per Sovereign's speech, they see organic life as nothing, they are the pinnacle of evolution, soooooooooo why do they need to procreate with different species? Why would they make organics part of themselves if they are so below them? The writers are going against what has been established in ME 1?

And no, we can't chop this up to Sovereign lying or bragging because we have nothing to infer that, he had no reason to lie.

"Organic life is nothing but a mutation, an accident" Reffering to us, which implies that they aren't organic life or an accident. Sovereign is drawing a contrast.

"What do you want from us? Slaves? Resources?"

" ..... You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance."

"Who built you?"

"You're not even alive! You're just a machine!"

The writers clearly wanted to convey the point that they aren't organic. Yet in ME 2 a massive info dump comes out of absolutely nowhere. EDI is partly Reaper how come she doesn't know then? How come the science team doesn't discover this on the Reaper? why doesn't EDI discover this on the Reaper? If Iron Giant was the first of its kind this would all make sense. But no, EDI somehow draws the conclusion that EVERY SINGLE Reaper is now suddenly partly organic just by examining Iron Giant. How does she know this? If she can figure this out by scanning him, why didn't she figure this out sooner?

What do you know, the secret word of the day two days in a row is: CONTRIVED.

They are the pinnacle of evolution...what evolves, an organic species, or a machine? Hint: It's not the machine...

Sovereign says organic life is an accident and a mutation, yes. This isn't contradicted by what is said in ME2. Sovereign never said he wasn't organic...because he's not. He's almost entirely mechanical, with organic components that we do not yet know the function of. Organic components does not equal organic. Nothing Sovereign is saying is contradicting anything.

I don't know why those Shepard quotes are there, because how would Shepard know if Sovvy is a machine or not?

EDI
is based off of Reaper tech; that doesn't mean she knows anything about
the Reapers themselves. The science team was indoctrinated and turned
into husks...and EDI didn't discover anything on the Derelict Reaper
because she did not have access to it's data systems, assuming they were
even still active.

Discovering a new fact about something is not a retcon. It is called a plot twist.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

Nothing of value?

Arrival stopped the Reapers from conquering the galaxy! That's just as valuable as stopping Sovereign at the Battle of the Citadel.

What happened in ME1 that was so much more significant than in ME2? The major choices were

Save/Kill Rachni Queen
Save/Kill Council
Anderson/Udina

The major ME2 decisions were

Save/destroy greybox
Encourage/Discourage Quarian War against Geth
Destroy/Re-write Heretic Geth (or if you didn't do it at all, deal with the consequence of all Geth serving the Reapers in ME3...that's HUGE
Save/Destroy Genophage
Save/Destroy Collector Base

Since we don't know how any of the major choices from ME1 or ME2 will play out in ME3, you can't say nothing of value happened.

What I mean by nothing of value was that at the end of ME 2 we are in the EXACT same spot that we were at the end of ME 1 besides the knowledge of The Collectors being Protheans (which doesn't matter anyway since we killed them) and the recton of Reapers being semi organic constructs. The Reapers are still coming and we have no idea on how to stop them, nor have we tried to find out.

First of all, the Reapers being part organic is not a retcon. It was never stated that the Reapers were fully mechanical. Just because that's the impression you got doesn't make it a retcon.

The plot of ME3 is figuring out how to stop the Reapers. And until you see how the impact of the ME2 choices play out, you shouldn't say they don't matter in stopping the Reapers.

On the contrary, the Reaper reveal is very much a retcon. As per Sovereign's speech, they see organic life as nothing, they are the pinnacle of evolution, soooooooooo why do they need to procreate with different species? Why would they make organics part of themselves if they are so below them? The writers are going against what has been established in ME 1

And no, we can't chop this up to Sovereign lying or bragging because we have nothing to infer that, he had no reason to lie.

"Organic life is nothing but a mutation, an accident" Reffering to us, which implies that they aren't organic life or an accident. Sovereign is drawing a contrast.

"What do you want from us? Slaves? Resources?"

" ..... You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance."

"Who built you?"

"You're not even alive! You're just a machine!"

The writers clearly wanted to convey the point that they aren't organic. Yet in ME 2 a massive info dump comes out of absolutely nowhere. EDI is partly Reaper how come she doesn't know then? How come the science team doesn't discover this on the Reaper? why doesn't EDI discover this on the Reaper? If Iron Giant was the first of its kind this would all make sense. But no, EDI somehow draws the conclusion that EVERY SINGLE Reaper is now suddenly partly organic just by examining Iron Giant. How does she know this? If she can figure this out by scanning him, why didn't she figure this out sooner?

What do you know, the secret word of the day two days in a row is: CONTRIVED.

Their is nothing in ME1 that states what they are made of...So. Any thing bioware states they are made of in ME2 is not a retcon.
The meaning of RETCON IS....http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon
Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.
....
Since nothing is stated in ME1 about how the reapers are made, anything stated about it in ME2 is not a retcon.
Why? Because it did not change and established fact.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

Nothing of value?

Arrival stopped the Reapers from conquering the galaxy! That's just as valuable as stopping Sovereign at the Battle of the Citadel.

What happened in ME1 that was so much more significant than in ME2? The major choices were

Save/Kill Rachni Queen
Save/Kill Council
Anderson/Udina

The major ME2 decisions were

Save/destroy greybox
Encourage/Discourage Quarian War against Geth
Destroy/Re-write Heretic Geth (or if you didn't do it at all, deal with the consequence of all Geth serving the Reapers in ME3...that's HUGE
Save/Destroy Genophage
Save/Destroy Collector Base

Since we don't know how any of the major choices from ME1 or ME2 will play out in ME3, you can't say nothing of value happened.

What I mean by nothing of value was that at the end of ME 2 we are in the EXACT same spot that we were at the end of ME 1 besides the knowledge of The Collectors being Protheans (which doesn't matter anyway since we killed them) and the recton of Reapers being semi organic constructs. The Reapers are still coming and we have no idea on how to stop them, nor have we tried to find out.

First of all, the Reapers being part organic is not a retcon. It was never stated that the Reapers were fully mechanical. Just because that's the impression you got doesn't make it a retcon.

The plot of ME3 is figuring out how to stop the Reapers. And until you see how the impact of the ME2 choices play out, you shouldn't say they don't matter in stopping the Reapers.

On the contrary, the Reaper reveal is very much a retcon. As per Sovereign's speech, they see organic life as nothing, they are the pinnacle of evolution, soooooooooo why do they need to procreate with different species? Why would they make organics part of themselves if they are so below them? The writers are going against what has been established in ME 1

And no, we can't chop this up to Sovereign lying or bragging because we have nothing to infer that, he had no reason to lie.

"Organic life is nothing but a mutation, an accident" Reffering to us, which implies that they aren't organic life or an accident. Sovereign is drawing a contrast.

"What do you want from us? Slaves? Resources?"

" ..... You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance."

"Who built you?"

"You're not even alive! You're just a machine!"

The writers clearly wanted to convey the point that they aren't organic. Yet in ME 2 a massive info dump comes out of absolutely nowhere. EDI is partly Reaper how come she doesn't know then? How come the science team doesn't discover this on the Reaper? why doesn't EDI discover this on the Reaper? If Iron Giant was the first of its kind this would all make sense. But no, EDI somehow draws the conclusion that EVERY SINGLE Reaper is now suddenly partly organic just by examining Iron Giant. How does she know this? If she can figure this out by scanning him, why didn't she figure this out sooner?

What do you know, the secret word of the day two days in a row is: CONTRIVED.

Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

[TuringPoint]

The Mass Effect trilogy involves far less "extraneous" content than any game made by bioware before the ME trilogy. Having adventures besides the main story arc(s) is a time honored tradition among science fiction (or sci-fi) tv shows. It is part of what makes science fiction and fantasy interesting, using the imagination to explore worlds beyond our own, or extensions of our own. What makes a compelling saga (even to use that term loosely) is the characters, and for a change ME2 gave the characters and the world a little bit of attention.

In fact what made ME1 powerful to me was that I didn't know how much the little sidequests and hints to the main plot were related.  What happened in ME1 has less merit to the eventual confrontation with the Reaper fleet than ME2 does. 

ME2 gives us reason to care about the war against the Reapers. As I recall, ME1 focused on Saren and Sovereign, as if that would be the end. At the end when Shepard said the Reapers were coming, I was like, "Wtf?" Or at least that was my gut reaction. That was how little difference ME1's plot made.

Now ME2 is finished. It had its rough spots. In spite of people insulting the game like playground bullies, insisting that everyone who loves it has no taste and is stupid, I feel it was successful in illuminating us about the enemy, and making the world more real.  

Compared to works of real literature, ME2 is so-so. Most science fiction, sci-fi, whether you make a difference or not, is not brilliant literature.

Compared to other video games, ME2 is still far and above a vast majority of the rest.

Modifié par Alocormin, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[TuringPoint]

EDIT:  If you're curious, send me a tell asking why I don't believe Smudboy's opinion is.. credible.  As a vanguard for the belief that ME2's plotline sucked or anything else.

Modifié par Alocormin, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

So Tali's loyalty mission has no ground in furture quarian/human relations in ME3? The genophage cure will never come in hand in ME3? Aria's pull with the terminus system won't have any effect? Kasumis grybox has pointless in ME3? The results of overlord? The tech from the collector base and who lives and dies in the suicide mission?
All that ispoint less to ME3?

And there you have it.  ME2 was simply a shopping list of choices to import into ME3.  What did any of this have to do with ME2's story?  How much time did Shepard spend "decision shopping" rather than actually preparing for a mission against the COllectors?

[111987]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

ME2 was nothing but filler.

How can you say that without knowing how all the things in ME2 will affect ME3?

Because nothing of any value happend besides the Collector base, Arrival, and possibly Leigon's loyalty mission. Most of it doesn't affect the plot.

So Tali's loyalty mission has no ground in furture quarian/human relations in ME3? The genophage cure will never come in hand in ME3? Aria's pull with the terminus system won't have any effect? Kasumis grybox has pointless in ME3? The results of overlord? The tech from the collector base and who lives and dies in the suicide mission?
All that ispoint less to ME3?

And there you have it.  ME2 was simply a shopping list of choices to import into ME3.  What did any of this have to do with ME2's story?  How much time did Shepard spend "decision shopping" rather than actually preparing for a mission against the COllectors?

All the 'decision shopping missions' were loyalty missions, which strengthened the resolve of your crew members, thus preparing for the mission against the Collectors.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

All the 'decision shopping missions' were loyalty missions, which strengthened the resolve of your crew members, thus preparing for the mission against the Collectors.

Which are fine.  As side missions.  What I'm talking about is the mission itself.  I'm talking about

1) gathering equpiment, such as for Mordin's anti-Seeker technology.  Which was done entirely off-camera.
 2) Upgrades for the Normandy, which you mine stuff, hit a button and it's done.  Information gathering, which was a single mission that was an obvious trap form the get-go.  
3) Upgrades for the squad.  SImilarly done by mining and hitting the "research" button.  Or by tripping over random stuff on missons.

I was under the impression that the main portion of this game was supposed to be preparing for a "Suicide Mission" but I spent most of the game gunning down nameless mercs who had the misfortune to get in my way.  Anything that had any substantive connection to the SM was done by other people off-screen.  Shepard was relegated primarily to babysitter.

Modifié par iakus, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
As I said before, what your seeing on Haestrom is the shield generator going out, not the shields being attacked directly.

Is this actually said in the game?  "Fries your shields" is the phrase that's used repeatedly, and isn't specific as to what's going on. 

Given the other observable facts, it is highly unlikely that the barrier generators themselves are being affected, or the Normandy and the shuttle would also lose their barriers.  The shuttle has to spend longer in direct exposure to the star than Shep ever does.  And all the other equipment that is not harmed  is exposed for just as long as the barrier generators in the armor.  The radios and computers built into the same armor are not affected. 

Unless you can come up with a canon-compatible way in which the squad's kinetic barrier systems are more vulnerable than any other piece of equipment they're carrying, you have an unaddressed contradition in your theory. 

Given how the barriers work and what they do, they'd be affected by particle radiation.  We see the personal barriers fail when exposed directly to the star.  Draw a straight line. 

And again, the shell of a gun or the metal in an armored suit would not be enough to step particle radiation energetic enough to have just punched clean through Haestrom's magnetic field and through miles and miles of atmosphere. 

That's the thing, all forms of rediation can be block with layers of cover. Which was my point in  my sorce I put up, Particl Radiation maybe stop by sheilds, but that does not mean it's th only radiation in an environment. Now, I never said it stops the radiation, only the it reduses it. In all form of radiation protection Layers of Metal and material is used  to hold it back. Hence sorce....http://en.wikipedia....hielding_design
Are you really telling me layers of high dense metal does not stop or delay radiation?

On point the radiation you deal with on Haestrom is solar radiation. http://www.youtube.c...864ynxhbk#t=17s
The fact that life can still live on Haestrom and you are on it with no helmet on and your only effective in the sun show it's not heavly hit with partical radiation. Especilly since it's in solar wind, cosmic radiation, and neutron flux in nuclear reactors. http://en.wikipedia....es_of_radiation.

Also, it's stated the sun light on the planet fries tech.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5D4jXy4XIw&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s


Your walking out in the sun. Your Shield generator is being fried being that it's tech and as it's being fried the genorator is losing power. THat's what your seeing. It's not the shield themselves be degrading.

I'm not telling you that metal won't mitigate particle radiation, I'm telling you that the amount of metal in the weapons and armor is not enough to stop the kind of particle radiation that makes it through a planet's magnetic field and atmosphere and still has enough power to have the effects that we see. 

If it were simply intense heating from the visible / IR / UV light, the barriers wouldn't stop the effects AT ALL, the squad would just start cooking as soon as they stepped out of the shadows.  Instead, we see a delay as the barriers fail over time.  If it were heating causing the barriers to fail, other equipment would fail -- guns would go though thermal clips faster while out of the shadows, for example.  And sealed helmets would be needed to avoid breathing in the superheated air. 

So why are the barriers the ONLY tech we see being affected? 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

All the 'decision shopping missions' were loyalty missions, which strengthened the resolve of your crew members, thus preparing for the mission against the Collectors.

Which are fine.  As side missions.  What I'm talking about is the mission itself.  I'm talking about

1) gathering equpiment, such as for Mordin's anti-Seeker technology.  Which was done entirely off-camera.  2) Upgrades for the Normandy, which you mine stuff, hit a button and it's done.  Information gathering, which was a single mission that was an obvious trap form the get-go.  
3) Upgrades for teh squad.  SImilarly done by mining and hitting the "research" button.  Or by tripping over random stuff on missons.

I was under the impression that the main portion of this game was supposed to be preparing for a "Suicide Mission" but I spent most of the game gunning down nameless mercs who had the misfortune to get in my way.  Anything that had any substantive connection to the SM was done by other people off-screen.  Shepard was relegated primarily to babysitter.

I actually agree that there should have been at least one more mission with the Collector's involved. They are supposed to be the main antagonists of the game and we fight them only on Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the Collector Base. That's three encounters; one or two more would have probably made them more interesting enemies, and like you said, would have given us an opportunity to learn about/find upgrades to defend against the Collectors or what not.

[HTTP 404]

some things are funny, but he's too snarky, reminds me of rich old men who drink scotch and talk about how things really should be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ERm.....talk about a de-rail.


Jsut for everyone to rememeber, this thread was about bad writing in ME2.

Specificly going trough the O4 relay without any info, TIM brining back Shepaprd, the entire squad taking a shuttle ride to PlotBus Land and the Termionator reaper.

Just to remind you ppl - those of you arguing for the super-effectiveness of kinetic barriers are essentialy arguing for those of us saying probes should have been sent trough the O4.


Also, the tIM bringing back Shep has never been adressed. We already established Shep isnt' that special, nor that of an super-icon.
The idea that everyone woudl differ to Shep is just downright redicolous. Shep is a ground-punder. No admiral or general will take orders from shep. WTF does shep know about fleet battels or large-scale gorund manouvers? He's not trained for those. (An admiral would sooner take orders from Hackket. He's a hero of the citadel too AND an admiral who killed Sovereign)

[Lotion Soronarr]

dreman9999 wrote...
Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

Everytihng we know from ME1 about the reapers implies otherwise. the entier tone, the design - NOTHING even HINTED at ANYTHING organic involved.
I call it a retcon.

[littlezack]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

Everytihng we know from ME1 about the reapers implies otherwise. the entier tone, the design - NOTHING even HINTED at ANYTHING organic involved.
I call it a retcon.

You can call it what you want, but it's not a retcon. 

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm.....talk about a de-rail.


Jsut for everyone to rememeber, this thread was about bad writing in ME2.

Specificly going trough the O4 relay without any info, TIM brining back Shepaprd, the entire squad taking a shuttle ride to PlotBus Land and the Termionator reaper.

Just to remind you ppl - those of you arguing for the super-effectiveness of kinetic barriers are essentialy arguing for those of us saying probes should have been sent trough the O4.


Also, the tIM bringing back Shep has never been adressed. We already established Shep isnt' that special, nor that of an super-icon.
The idea that everyone woudl differ to Shep is just downright redicolous. Shep is a ground-punder. No admiral or general will take orders from shep. WTF does shep know about fleet battels or large-scale gorund manouvers? He's not trained for those. (An admiral would sooner take orders from Hackket. He's a hero of the citadel too AND an admiral who killed Sovereign)

It is unknown if probes have kinetic barriers at all, and if they do, they would be far less effective because the strength of a shield is dependent on the size of the object (due to more shield emitters being able to generate the shields). Thus the probes would not survive contact with the debris because there kinetic barriers aren't strong enough.

And actually, I did address how Shepard is special. You must have missed it, so I'll reiterate some of my points again.

If you replaced Shepard with a common ground troop of equal skill, the galaxy would have been screwed. Shepard has alliances and connections that make him invaluable to defeating the Reapers. Such as strong alliances with the Council (being a Spectre), the Alliance via Anderson and Hackett, the Rachni through the Rachni Queen, the Quarians through Tali, the Krogan through Wrex, and the Geth through Legion (Legion was specifically looking for Shepard; if Shepard wasn't around, the Geth wouldn't have worked with organics).

Why are these relations significant? Well, let's see what would happen if Shepard wasn't ressurected...

The replacement soldier would have never landed on Tuchanka when he went to complete the loyalty missions there; he would have been blasted out of the sky like any other alien. If he didn't go to Tuchanka, Clan Weyrloc would have risen to power and unleashed a devastating war on the galaxy with the Reapers right on the horizon...that would have very negative repurcussions for the galaxy.

Without a connection to Tali, this soldier would have had no connection with the Quarians. That's a large potential ally you just lost.

Since this soldier isn't Shepard, Legion would not have worked for him; legion states Shepard is unique, special. Therefore, the heretic geth would have been successful in repurposing all true geth to serve the Reapers. This would be another huge blow in the war against the Reapers.

I could go on but I think I've made my point about how not only is Shepard one of the greatest fighters in the galaxy, serves as a powerful anti-Reaper symbol, and has the cipher, but he also has key relationships needed to defeat the Reapers.

Also, look up the definition of a retcon. Because Reapers being part organic is not a retcon.

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm.....talk about a de-rail.


Jsut for everyone to rememeber, this thread was about bad writing in ME2.

Specificly going trough the O4 relay without any info, TIM brining back Shepaprd, the entire squad taking a shuttle ride to PlotBus Land and the Termionator reaper.

Just to remind you ppl - those of you arguing for the super-effectiveness of kinetic barriers are essentialy arguing for those of us saying probes should have been sent trough the O4.


Also, the tIM bringing back Shep has never been adressed. We already established Shep isnt' that special, nor that of an super-icon.
The idea that everyone woudl differ to Shep is just downright redicolous. Shep is a ground-punder. No admiral or general will take orders from shep. WTF does shep know about fleet battels or large-scale gorund manouvers? He's not trained for those. (An admiral would sooner take orders from Hackket. He's a hero of the citadel too AND an admiral who killed Sovereign)

It is unknown if probes have kinetic barriers at all, and if they do, they would be far less effective because the strength of a shield is dependent on the size of the object (due to more shield emitters being able to generate the shields). Thus the probes would not survive contact with the debris because there kinetic barriers aren't strong enough.

And actually, I did address how Shepard is special. You must have missed it, so I'll reiterate some of my points again.

If you replaced Shepard with a common ground troop of equal skill, the galaxy would have been screwed. Shepard has alliances and connections that make him invaluable to defeating the Reapers. Such as strong alliances with the Council (being a Spectre), the Alliance via Anderson and Hackett, the Rachni through the Rachni Queen, the Quarians through Tali, the Krogan through Wrex, and the Geth through Legion (Legion was specifically looking for Shepard; if Shepard wasn't around, the Geth wouldn't have worked with organics).

Why are these relations significant? Well, let's see what would happen if Shepard wasn't ressurected...

The replacement soldier would have never landed on Tuchanka when he went to complete the loyalty missions there; he would have been blasted out of the sky like any other alien. If he didn't go to Tuchanka, Clan Weyrloc would have risen to power and unleashed a devastating war on the galaxy with the Reapers right on the horizon...that would have very negative repurcussions for the galaxy.

Without a connection to Tali, this soldier would have had no connection with the Quarians. That's a large potential ally you just lost.

Since this soldier isn't Shepard, Legion would not have worked for him; legion states Shepard is unique, special. Therefore, the heretic geth would have been successful in repurposing all true geth to serve the Reapers. This would be another huge blow in the war against the Reapers.

I could go on but I think I've made my point about how not only is Shepard one of the greatest fighters in the galaxy, serves as a powerful anti-Reaper symbol, and has the cipher, but he also has key relationships needed to defeat the Reapers.

Also, look up the definition of a retcon. Because Reapers being part organic is not a retcon.

Kinetic Barriers or not, TIM never tried sending probes through when he should have since he doesn't know what's on the other side.

But thats just it, Shepard didn't get resurrected because of those reasons: which is an argument after the fact. He got resurrected because he was supposibly an "icon" which is never explained what the significance has on the plot: there's no context.

Unique and special how? In what context?  Please explain Leigon.

He cannot be considered an "anti- Reaper symbol" Because the majority of people are unaware of its existance, Hero of the Citidial maybe, but not anti- Reaper symbol.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm.....talk about a de-rail.


Jsut for everyone to rememeber, this thread was about bad writing in ME2.

Specificly going trough the O4 relay without any info, TIM brining back Shepaprd, the entire squad taking a shuttle ride to PlotBus Land and the Termionator reaper.

Just to remind you ppl - those of you arguing for the super-effectiveness of kinetic barriers are essentialy arguing for those of us saying probes should have been sent trough the O4.


Also, the tIM bringing back Shep has never been adressed. We already established Shep isnt' that special, nor that of an super-icon.
The idea that everyone woudl differ to Shep is just downright redicolous. Shep is a ground-punder. No admiral or general will take orders from shep. WTF does shep know about fleet battels or large-scale gorund manouvers? He's not trained for those. (An admiral would sooner take orders from Hackket. He's a hero of the citadel too AND an admiral who killed Sovereign)

It is unknown if probes have kinetic barriers at all, and if they do, they would be far less effective because the strength of a shield is dependent on the size of the object (due to more shield emitters being able to generate the shields). Thus the probes would not survive contact with the debris because there kinetic barriers aren't strong enough.

How would you know if they can't skim pass debris? Probes are also smaller, nimbler and cheaper than a ship - hence they can avoid debris better.  You cna afford to launch a dozen...a hunderd.
No loss of life if it's destroyed, compared to a ship.
Intelligence gained either way.

And actually, I did address how Shepard is special. You must have missed it, so I'll reiterate some of my points again.

If you replaced Shepard with a common ground troop of equal skill, the galaxy would have been screwed. Shepard has alliances and connections that make him invaluable to defeating the Reapers. Such as strong alliances with the Council (being a Spectre), the Alliance via Anderson and Hackett, the Rachni through the Rachni Queen, the Quarians through Tali, the Krogan through Wrex, and the Geth through Legion (Legion was specifically looking for Shepard; if Shepard wasn't around, the Geth wouldn't have worked with organics).

Why are these relations significant? Well, let's see what would happen if Shepard wasn't ressurected...

Bollocks.
Anyone in Sheps team could do the same.
Another competent person replacing Shep could do the same. Friendly relations are not that hard to build.
You got humans and aliens dealing with quarians, Krogans and everyone else on a daily basis.

And what about a Sheppard that killed Wrex? That Kileld off the Council? The galaxy doesn't like him. How is he a symbol and icon?

I could go on but I think I've made my point about how not only is Shepard one of the greatest fighters in the galaxy, serves as a powerful anti-Reaper symbol, and has the cipher, but he also has key relationships needed to defeat the Reapers.

Again, bollocks. There's nothing special about Sheps relationships. What, you think there aren't any other people out there who are on good terms wiht various factions?
The Cipher is useless, since it already served it's purpose. The warning about the reapers is already out there.

Shep is not a powerfull anti-reper symbol, since 99% of hte galaxy doesn't know or doesn't belive in them.


Also, TIM's plan was redicolous since it hinged on

1) getting sheps body relatively in tact
2) reviving him (despite his hiribly mangled, decomposing corpse)
3) keeping his memories in tact inthe process
4) getting Shep to wrok with him
5) everyone hailin Shep and listenign to him (biggest WTF??)

If even one of those poitns fail, TIM plan fails. A huge investment of time and resources. A tottaly stupid plan that only a moron would think could work.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:08 .

[Someone With Mass]

littlezack wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

Everytihng we know from ME1 about the reapers implies otherwise. the entier tone, the design - NOTHING even HINTED at ANYTHING organic involved.
I call it a retcon.

You can call it what you want, but it's not a retcon. 

Because if it's a retcon, the game would have to specifically say that no organic parts were involved in the Reaper creation at all. Which it didn't.

Some people really need to understand the meaning of the word...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

Everytihng we know from ME1 about the reapers implies otherwise. the entier tone, the design - NOTHING even HINTED at ANYTHING organic involved.
I call it a retcon.

You can call it what you want, but it's not a retcon. 

Because if it's a retcon, the game would have to specifically say that no organic parts were involved in the Reaper creation at all. Which it didn't.

Some people really need to understand the meaning of the word...

Semantics. It was heavily implied there was no organic compnent. The Termiantor reaper and goo are one of the worst cases of bad writing in hostry of bad wrting. Garbage of the highest stink.

[111987]

You didn't counter a single point about how Shepard's relations are unique...'bollocks' is not a counter-argument. I cannot debate you if you don't counter my points.

And I've seriously argued this probe point so many times...please look at my other posts. Actually, don't. You are clearly either incapable or unwilling to understand, so I really have no interest in continuing to debate you.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Is anything in that statement stating what a reaper is made from?......No. Than it doesn;t establish the fact that reaper are not part organic. If it does not, it's not a retcon.

Everytihng we know from ME1 about the reapers implies otherwise. the entier tone, the design - NOTHING even HINTED at ANYTHING organic involved.
I call it a retcon.

You can call it what you want, but it's not a retcon. 

Because if it's a retcon, the game would have to specifically say that no organic parts were involved in the Reaper creation at all. Which it didn't.

Some people really need to understand the meaning of the word...

Semantics. It was heavily implied there was no organic compnent. The Termiantor reaper and goo are one of the worst cases of bad writing in hostry of bad wrting. Garbage of the highest stink.

No...in your mind, it was heavily implied. Thats just how you interepreted it. That doesn't mean everyone would interpret it that way. It is not a retcon.

And if you think ME2 had some of the worst writing in history...you really are rather ignorant of the world.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Semantics. It was heavily implied there was no organic compnent. The Termiantor reaper and goo are one of the worst cases of bad writing in hostry of bad wrting. Garbage of the highest stink.

Let me tell you something.

Just because it's implied doesn't mean it is so as a fact.

Take the geth, for example. Many believed they all were nothing but killing machines. That's not the case.

[Someone With Mass]

111987 wrote...

No...in your mind, it was heavily implied. Thats just how you interepreted it. That doesn't mean everyone would interpret it that way. It is not a retcon.

And if you think ME2 had some of the worst writing in history...you really are rather ignorant of the world.

Want bad writing? Watch any of the Twilight movies.