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[Anacronian Stryx]

I've seen everything The Smud has done and while i don't agree with all of it he does make some good points and some not so good, But at least he comes of as having given the topic a lot of thought.

Unlike Squees responses that barely touches anything Smud say (I still think that Squee doesn't know the difference between story and plot) and comes of as a unstructured mess that in the end resort to "Hey it's sci-fi no reason to think about" and finally "A lot of people bought ME2 and it won a lot of rewards therefore it's good no matter what you say".

[100k]

*My changes are not to make ME2 different from the original game-- merely to expand upon the appropriate content in the game. Don't think of this as "100k's Mass Effect 2 fix". Think of it as "Mass Effect 2: Directors Cut."

I remember watching smudboy's videos on where ME2 failed, and where it should've been perfected. He brought up some interesting points, but I feel that he was far too harsh on ME2's story. That being said, I agree with much of what he said regarding its lack of proper plot, pacing, or character development for Shepard (which the player should be able to control, but is never given the option to).

Smudboy wanted to completely rewrite ME2, with half of the main cast combined with other cast members to save time, and, what he felt, were just foolish characters to begin with. He also felt that all of the characters needed to be plot integral, so that they would have proper roles in the game. I feel, however, that these characters didn't need to be removed or combined. I'll explain why later.

You will notice that MY ME2 is very accurate to the current one. I feel that the essentials of a good story are within the strained net that is ME2's existing story, and that what needed to happen most was simple expansion. However, the very beginning, very middle, and very end do have strong differences, that address the problems of tutorials, over arching plot, and a conclusion in that respective order. So lets begin.

The TUTORIAL

1. The beginning. Recognizing that ME2 needed a tutorial makes sense to me. And I feel that this is the area where ME2 utterly failed. It had to appeal to the mainstream audience, who Bioware had to assume hadn't/wouldn't play ME1. I understand this. However, I feel that splitting the tutorial missions up even more, while introducing certain game types would've made more sense, allowing more story to be crammed into the beginning of the game, without skimming the story elements.

-The player designs Shepard, and instantly is able to be aboard the SR1. They can "see" their Shepard, without having to wait 10+ minutes.
-Aboard the SR1, the player will learn the basics of movement and conversation wheel while meeting the old members of your crew for either the first time, or returning time (if you played ME1). These characters will summarize different events of ME1, catching new players up on the plot so far. This also solves the problem of the VS only having a few lines in ME2's entirety, and shows how these characters changed since the first game (think of how Pressley would have changed, voicing his new found confidence for aliens to the commander).
-The player then learns to use the galaxy map, and when they pick a course, they are attacked by the Collectors.
-Now, at this point, the main events are the same, albeit with a minor change. The ship is destroyed, Shepard moves Joker to an escape pod, but is separated from his pilot. Shepard then struggles to the last remaining pod, which is heavily damaged. The commander, wounded, enters the pod, which is unable to launch in time, and is blasted out of SR1, towards the planet below.

Thus begins ME2.

-A short video illuminates (SB) agents landing on the planet, searching SR1's wreckage, finding the crashed pod, and opening it up, peering into the blackness inside to find...the Mass Effect 2 title (and an unseen Shepard).

(at the time, the player doesn't know that the agents are Shadow Broker mercs)

-The Cerberus facility is used differently for several reasons. It needs to be part two of the game's tutorial, and it needs to make sense with the story. Shepard, instead of somehow remaining intact after a fall from orbit, is killed when life support in the pod is broken. His/her body is preserved in a cryo-like state after Life Support failed in space, although Shepard's bones are broken after the escape pod collided with the planet.

Anyways. I do agree with smudboy (and many other fans) that Shepard's death has to mean something. Smudboy suggests moving it to the middle of the game, but I think it can be just as dramaic where it currently is...provided that it is more fleshed out:

Flashes of the Cipher burst across the screen.

You hear Miranda talking about Shepard being rebuilt.

Shepard wakes up for the first time; screaming in pain or shock. You hear someone (possibly Wilson) say "My god. It worked. Shepard is alive!" or something along those lines. It sounds a bit like something Frankenstein would say when his monster wakes up, but it establishes that returning from the dead means something.

Shepard wakes up for a second time, delirious this time in a white room. Officer Lawson enters, and gets Shepard to memorize his/her basic motor skills again, after prompting Shepard to stand up. Shepard tries, and falls to the floor, with very little physical strength after months on an operating table.

(there is, after all, no reason for there to be another tutorial involving learning the basics like movement, as that was covered in ME2's SR1 prologue. The scene ends)

The next scene is of Shepard getting his/her cybernetics fixed on his/her face, while (s)he inquires as to her current whereabouts. Miranda tells her that she is in a medical facility that is trying to fix her up, so that she can stop the Reapers, and that she can meet her Alliance Admirals later (an obvious lie, but Shep is still under heavy drugs). As you leave the operating room, you here a Cerberus agent asking questions about recent human colonies that have fallen silent.

The next scene is of Shepard repairing a gun, as part of a memory test. Shepard explains that he/she doesn't understand what a thermal clip is, thus introducing new and old players to thermal clips, and their uses. Wilson explains, and then instructs Shepard to shoot the targets on the walls. As you all probably will have already realized, this is the tutorial to gun play (or biotics) in the game. After mastering the combat in the tutorial, Shepard is stunned by a vision of the Cipher, depicting Saren, the Reapers, and the Protheans. Shepard faints, and game starts up where the official ME2 begins, with Shepard waking up on a table and escaping the base.

Minor changes include:
-Shepard being more suspicious of Miranda after she kills Wilson
-Shepard being angrier upon discovering that she was saved, not by the alliance, but by Cerberus if she is a Sole Survivor
-TIM explaining that he wont send a ship of specialists through the Omega 4, without knowing what is beyond it. He is developing special probes with automated FTL systems to survey the other side of the Relay, before bringing back results/footage.
-Shepard gets a debriefing from either Miranda, TIM, or Jacob on each dossier, detailing their abilities, history, and what purpose they might hypothetically serve.

The OVERALL PLOT

Smudboy is write, I think, when he says that the real enemy of ME2 should've been the Reapers. However, I feel that he goes to the extreme, by making Shepard become a sort of diplomat that needs to convince every race to fight the Reapers. This is extremely premature, considering that we don't know how ME3 will pan out.

Hence, I keep ME2's plot more or less the same, with changes being acknowledgement that:

-Shepard is copping with his/her death (this influences how Tali, Miranda, and Garrus respect you)
-The specialists have fluctuating faith in their abilities to carry out the ever looming threat of the final suicide mission
-Shepard doesn't know how or where the collectors will strike.

While I wouldn't change the existing ME2 small Collector/Reaper plot, I would add to it.
4 missions involving the collectors and their abductions would be added. Each of these missions would be a mini suicide mission. One character can die each mission. This does not include Horizon, or the Derelict Collector Ship. These missions can be tackled in any order.

Freedom's progress is the same, except that Tali is more suspicious of Shepard when she is first reunited with him.

Horizon is the same, except for the very ending discussion with VS. Shepard can now explain himself to Ash/Kaiden more thoroughly.

Additional Mission - Ambushing the Collectors. At Feris Fields, you and your team are finally given the option to ambush the Collectors with some preparation. All squad mates go with you, but like the suicide mission, they are separated due to mission objectives. Feris Fields is a semi large colony, so deciding whether protecting the innocent, or killing the collectors is very important.

Additional Mission - Hunting the Collectors. A small squad of Collectors are harvesting a hive of Rachni on a distant planet. With your own small squad, you will go in and stop the abductions, and find out what the purpose of this odd Collector mission. Renegade points and heavy credits for capturing the rachni and giving them to Cerberus. Special biotic power for capturing the collectors, although they will eventually die after losing Harbinger's control. Heavy Paragon points for freeing the rachni (provided the Queen is still alive), and gaining a rachni biotic power. Heavy Renegade points for killing both races.

Additional Mission - Saving a Science Team. You go to rescue a small science team who has discovered a Prothean artifact. The artifact started sending signals into space once activated, and a small Collector vessel arrived almost at once. If You have not boarded the Derelict Ship, Shepard and the science team will wonder why the Collectors were so eager to find this artifact. If you have already completed the Derelict Ship mission, Shepard will explain the the scientists that the Collectors are repurposed Protheans, and that Collectors were probably designed by the Reapers to attack anyone who uncovered such relics, so that younger races wouldn't discover the Reaper-Cycle plot.

Additional Mission - Geth and Collectors. Shepard and company discover that the main Collector vessel is attacking a Geth ship over a tropical world. This seems odd if you haven't picked up Legion, because Shepard will assume that the Geth and Collectors would cooperate. If you do have Legion with you, he will explain that the two races are fighting over something unspecific (Legion will have hacked the Geth transmissions). Using stealth, you land on the planet where the Geth ship is crashed, and sneak about to find out what is happening. The Geth and Collector forces are fighting on the ground, but you can see that a small Geth company is sneaking a Geth relic into a large cave, and avoiding the main fight, Shepard and company must infiltrate the cave to discover the location and purpose of this geth artifact. It is discovered, that the Geth are actually on the verge of discovering the Reapers true plans for their species (destruction), and if the Geth find this out, they might reconsider their alliance with their gods (these are the Heretics). If Legion is with you on this mission, he will encourage you to let the Geth keep the relic. If Miranda is with you, she will encourage you to destroy the relic, and the Geth. If Tali is with you, depending on her loyalty status, she will either encourage you to allow her to bring the relic to her people for study, or give it to Legion.

These four missions push the idea that the real threat in the galaxy is actually the Reapers, but that they are a looming storm, while the Collectors are the main enemy. It keeps the main plot on course, and allows the jarringly different loyalty missions to be more forgivable as distractions to the overall story.

The CONCLUSION

Finally we come to the end. This is the only part I would have actually redesigned.

Shepard and company are tricked into believing that a large Collector force is attacking a medium sized human colony. When the entire team arrives to find the colony is fine, they realize the trap. The Collectors abduct the Normandy's crew, pressing the player to hurry to their rescue.

Smudboy believed that the ending needed to be big, dramatic, and utilize all of the races duking it out with the Collectors. However, as ME3 isn't out yet, I think that he's just too eager to unite a front against the Reaper threat.

I feel that what is important is the crew of the SR2 functioning as a unit, and supporting each other as they go to what is almost certainly death.

After completing the four missions + the official game missions, moral on the SR2 is either high (from your success rate), low (from the number of people lost along the way) or so so (a combination of high success, and a few loses). TIM recovers only one of his Omega 4 Probes, and the entire SR2 crew sees what lies beyond the Omega 4 Relay: A burning abyss or radiation, solar flares, black holes and exploding worlds. There is a small habitable tunnel forged by the Collectors, cluttered with ancient ship wreckage, which makes a straight and narrow path to the Collector base, which is a horrifying construct of unrivaled power.

This briefing is in the game for several reasons:
-To demoralize the crew, lending a feeling of desperation. This doesn't meant that everyone will be scared however. Grunt, Mordin, and Samara will be confident. However the rest of the crew will be uneasy about their chances. This gives the player the chance to re motivate them.
-To build a feeling of isolation. Shepard and his crew need to start feeling completely isolated from the rest of the galaxy. This mission needs to emphasize that, unlike in ME1, Shepard is in this alone. No orders, and no direction.
-For you to evaluate your chances. Depending on how many crew mates are left, this could turn out very badly for you. This will force even the most casual of players to consider their looming choices.

Now the rest of the game is more or less the same. Once through the Omega 4, Joker flies through that "Valley" of habitable space. Depending on ship upgrades, you can defeat the Collector Vessel with various levels of success.

HOWEVER

Rather than crash landing on the Collector Base's side, you crash in its hangar bay. It just makes more sense.

If you have the Hammerhead DLC, you can initially use the Hammerhead to destroy certain of the bases comm towers, scrambling the collector response to your infiltration.

However, the Hammerhead will get damaged, and the player will have to assign a tech expert (best choices are Tali, Mordin, or Legion) to repair the craft while the rest of the team move on, or they can leave the Hammerhead.

Another change I've added are the Fire team leaders.

Depending on their success in the mini suicide missions, every character except Grunt, Legion, Jack, and Kasumi will make good squad leaders.

Kasumi or Thane will make the best infiltrator to break into a Collector security room to shut off cameras.

Thane, Garrus, and Legion will make the best snipers for covering the surviving abducted Cerberus crew and human colonists.

Jack and Samara will make the best biotics for stopping the seeker swarms, and Miranda can be trained to also fulfill that role.

For holding off Collectors that are trying to attack the Normandy, Grunt, Jacob, or Zaeed will make the best specialist.

Shepard fights his/her way to her first vocal confrontation with a grunt Collector-Harbinger, who, like a mad scientist, is hurriedly activating a human Reaper core. It is revealed that Harbinger wanted Shepard's body so that he could use the Prothean data to create a hybrid Prothean/Human Reaper.

You destroy the Reaper Core.

You can choose to destroy the base, or give it to Cerberus. Rather than Shepard coming off as an idealistic cheerleader, the moral debate between keeping the base and getting rid of it is made more grey by the fact that it is full or Reaper technology that can easily indoctrinate humans (whose husks are the main slave force, driving the base and processing humans) or keeping the base as a tool against the Reapers.

If Shepard destroys the base, he will flood its engines with liquids, causing the base to lose power, and be vacuumed into a black hole.

If you keep the base, Shepard will unleash a toxin that will only kill the collectors, but leave the Husks behind to keep it running, at least until Cerberus ships recover it.

Shepard (and his squad) is picked up by his tech specialist in the repaired Hammerhead, and they escape the crumbling/fuming base.

The story ends just like ME2 ends.

Now, this is the only unique mission I would add that is "new".

It's called Training Room.

Tali (being the brilliant engineer that she is) builds Shepard some VR training equipment so that Shepard can begin training the best team in the galaxy. The equipment is a series of ingenious "blankets" made of a light metal weave and synthetic material that can create stunningly convincing VR worlds and enemies when covering walls. A few electronic crates that simulate the content being displayed through the blankets, that go on the outside of the sheets. The material disperses biotic abilities when hit, so the fabric won't tear. Tech skills and guns are all modded to not activate, as the VR will simulate the effects of omni tools and firearms.

The material blanketing the walls can simulate weather, terrain, and some temperatures, and can create visual illusions that mimic the feeling of great distances.

Tali sets up this in the one area of the ship that is rarely used, but utterly suitable for this sort of set up: the cargo bay. She blankets the walls in the sheets (resembling slightly sparkling cloth sheets that are over lapped together along the interior of the bay) when Shepard wants to set up a VR training session for the entire team. She can also drape them around the Shuttle and Hammerhead, and the boxes of cargo supplies are pushed off to the sides of the bay.

Think of this as the X-Men's training room, but with less material and more innovative construction.

This room serves two major purposes:To build and develop squad banter and relationships, and to allow our NPCs to learn new game play moves through these improved relationships.

I think we all love squad banter and discussion. Here, Shepard has to initially struggle to get his team of bad asses to work together. Some characters like Jacob, Garrus, Tali, Mordin, and Thane are willing to work together. Rivalries spark, egos clash, and disagreements flare with others in the crew.

Miranda always struck me as someone whose genetics, education, and abilities made her rather arrogant. So, during the first level of the VR training room, she is automatically assigned as Shepard's second in command, and, internally desperate to prove her skills, she isn't able to instill the same respect that Shepard squad can, and her fire team "dies" during a failed simulation as a result.

Miranda feuds with Jack (just like usual), and Garrus (who's experience and team building skills rival--even possibly exceeding her own). She can develop respect from/for Garrus depending on her progression through the story, and gain subject Zero's obedience in the sim, but Jack will always hate her (keeping in mind that we can't change the relationship between the two women as ME3 hasn't decided their fates yet).

Miranda's ruthless nature leads her to put "minimal purpose" fighters like Jack, Grunt, and Legion in the front lines as distractions while she is focused on completing the missions.

(this is not to say that these characters have literally no purpose, merely that this is how Miranda values and perceives them in her own mind)

Jack and Grunt aren't willing to take orders from anyone but Shepard at first, and must complete a few of the VR missions with Shepard before they start taking the program and other squad mates seriously.

Zaeed is at first a crazed leader, putting minimal effort into choosing how to use his squad mates, and more effort into killing. Jack and Grunt like this. Other characters hate it, because it means that they are killed completing objectives while the other three go off on rampages.

You can sort of see where this is going. If Miranda is assigned the role of fire team leader enough times, she will gain most of the team's trust, and will be able to lead successful VR runs, gaining both experience for the player, and vocal support from the other characters. Gaining Garrus's support would be very uplifting to her. Same with Zaeed, Thane, Garrus, Tali, and Samara. We'd be able to see these characters not only develop as individuals, but as a crew. Even if they remain professional, it would be great squad banter to see an initial squad go from being a group that argues over mission priorities in the field, to carefully planning out mission priorities later, to finally working like a well oiled machine. Hell, if we wanted to take the VR one step further, they could go from a well oiled machine to a group willing to sacrifice themselves for each other.

There are certain exceptions to the fire team leader rule though. Grunt, Legion, Kasumi, and Jack simply don't have what it takes to be fire team candidates. They'll fulfill other equally important roles in the VR.

Long story short, the better each character does in a VR round, the more experience the player gets, the better rep that character gets, and the more character interaction those characters get.

-When it comes down to abilities/weapons-

Here we get to see more personal relationships between smaller groups of squad mates, that eventually develop abilities and abilities for wider use. Player choice is constantly under the players control, but the pay offs are big.

Shepard can have one on one VR training sessions regarding gun play, biotics, infiltration tactics, or tech abilities (depending on Shepard's class) with squad mates that correspond with those abilities. This allows Shepard to interact with NPCs out of their SR2 rooms, and gain/give new skills and experience.

For instance-

Shepard-Adept and Jack are in the VR room. Jack is teaching you (with generous amounts of profanity) how to boost your LSx abilities even more. Through a series of excersizes, she can teach Shepard how to use more powerful pulls, throws, slams, or singularities.

Samara can teach Jack how having the strongest biotics isn't everything. Accuracy and refinement also make a biotic potent. Jack can scoff, but Samara will demonstrate incredible biotic skill by using her biotics more rapidly than Jack could. Jack then gains a quicker cool down time for her powers.

And so on and so fourth.

In another scene, we can see Thane and Samara philosophizing in the VRs simulated beautiful desert. They then begin to spar, and Samara surprises the assassin by activating a biotic gauntlet, which she can teach Thane. Thane gains a powerful biotic melee attack (to go with his martial arts abilities).

Then we have a scene where Thane is training Samara in the use of sniper rifles, and the Justicar gains the ability to use sniper rifles, giving her a three weapon limit instead of two.

OR

Jacob and Samara train in a VR junk yard world, and Jacob teaches the justicar in shotgun training. Or Samara trains Jacob in biotic attack training. But because Samara learned shotgun training AND sniper training, she can't carry both weapons at the same time, so you'll have to choose what she can carry at the start of missions. Similarly, Jacob now has advanced biotics now, AND assault rifle training from Zaeed, but he can only carry one of these into a mission with him.

(you can swap them up, so that Jacob can have advanced biotics in one mission, and AR training in the next, just never at the same time).

Shepard only, however, can train Legion, Grunt, Garrus, and Jacob in carrying heavy weapons, which can only be activated in-game like a special biotic attack via the scroll wheel (so you'll never get Grunt nuking people left and right).

This way, Samara could potentially train Shepard and Miranda to become a more powerful biotics, making them both eligible to fulfill the role of biotic barrier carrier during the SM. They won't be as strong as Jack or Samara, but Miranda's powers would now rival Kaiden's, and Shepard's would rival those of a long trained Asari commandos.

You can see how this sort of works. It boosts abilities/weapon count, while showing more character interaction.

Heh, imagine a comical scene where Grunt plans to train Jack in gaining a superior melee attack, and she smacks him with a biotic gauntlet that leaves a nasty bruise on his head. The result being that Grunt actually learns to use a stronger melee attack XD

Now, these VR training missions are similar to the Pinnacle station missions. Facing down hordes, securing locations, capturing territories, escorting civilians, infiltration and stealth, etc etc. The difference is that these game play elements come into play during the ME2 story missions, like Feris Fields, where you have to either escort civilians to safety, or face down a seven minute horde of endless collectors.

Also, depending on how good your team is at these VR missions (which they can retake if you're not satisfied with their progress in the VR missions), cutscenes in the SM will be slightly different, as you will have gained another level of loyalty for each character called "professional loyalty". Though completion of a characters loyalty quest ensures their survival, completion of their professional loyalty ensures that they can almost breeze through their roles in the SM. Rather than Samara struggling to keep up her biotic barrier under the seeker swarms, she can periodically cause the field to fluctuate violently, causing enemies outside of the field to take damage-- and ending that section of game play with a cutscene in which she easily makes it to safety, and hurls her biotic attack at Shepard's attackers.

Another example of professional loyalty might be a moment where, instead of having a squaddie calling Shepard to tell him to hurry up and blow up the base, instead getting a scene where you see your specialists utterly slaughtering wave after wave of enemies. Dozens of husks and collectors attacking your final fire team, and your squad creating pyramids of corpses. This is the most dangerous team in the galaxy, right? Wouldn't it be cool to see the combined power of the best mercs, scientists, assassins, and tacticians kicking the collectors asses?

Imagine this comical scene:

Thane, Legion, and Garrus are at a vantage point over the battle. Thane and Garrus are in the middle of a sniping contest, cutting down foe after foe, while Legion, struggling to keep up with them, can't get a shot off. After a snide comment from either the drell or turian, Legion pulls off a ridiculous quadruple headshot (he is a machine after all), and the other two stare dumbfounded momentarily at the geth. That could be a loyalty quest reward.

[Balek-Vriege]

Phaedon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

When the message doesn't wish to be heard people attack the messenger.

Hardly. Not according to any ancient civilization, not even the Spartans.

Human nature just makes us like to kick arrogant people to bottomless pits, that's all.

Especially perceived arrogance with perceived near nonsensical points.  Smudboy's videos remind me of other "personalities" about real life stuff who sound good to some because they're so forceful with their convinctions and therefore they must be correct in their assessments.  Nothing can be further from the truth.

[Mann42]

I swear there's a smudboy post like this every month.

*searches BSN forums for "smudboy"*

Oh, it's been 2 months since the last one. That's an improvement, I guess.

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...


Yes everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. But could you give one example were squee was right and smudboy wrong? Or at least give on example were you agree with squee.

 around the 9:00 mark, the babylon 5 part. :happy:

 

starting at 12:57.

[CroGamer002]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Ok, I just have one complaint. I know some people agree with me and some do not. That's great. Makes the world a more interesting place. I don't mind if you disagree with my points. Hell, I'll admit you might find more organization in a bachelors. I think people are too hard on him for making the vids. The only difference, in that respect, between him and everyone here is that he puts more effort into it. (I should say in my defense ,for all those people who say I obsess about this kind of stuff that I have over 2000 videos on YouTube and less than 1% of them are argument videos for mass effect)

My complaint is why people keep saying I personally attacked him. I attacked his arguments and his presentation of them. I NEVER attacked his intelligence, character, or personal status. Everyone who has ever debated me here, may not like me, but they know I have never attacked someone on a personal level.

People need to learn the difference between attacking arguments/presentation methods, and attacking the person. Unless you think that every professor who ever wrote a paper to refute another professor was making a personal attack against them....

This.

Hell, you even said many times he is highly intelligent.
For some reason.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...



 

starting at 12:57.

I see where he's coming from, but I don't agree. Sheps death and resurrection served as a means to an end to make us work for cerberus, whom we only saw as terrorists in the first game. If shepard didn't die, we would be doing spectre business for the council, and since the council adamantly believes the reapers dont exist that would mean flying around scouting for geth as we saw in the opening.

Cerberus on the other hand acknowledged the threat and took steps. Working for them would forward the plot. But how could shepard possibly end up working for them if he didn't die? Especially after what they did in ME1? As a side-note, people treat shepard with distrust when he's alive so it served the purpose of alienating you from your previous allies. 

Again, this is just my opinion

Modifié par Mi-Chan, 28 août 2011 - 02:50 .

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...
I see where he's coming from, but I don't agree. Sheps death and resurrection served as a means to an end to make us work for cerberus, whom we only saw as terrorists in the first game. If shepard didn't die, we would be doing spectre business for the council, and since the council adamantly believes the reapers dont exist that would mean flying around scouting for geth as we saw in the opening.

Cerberus on the other hand acknowledged the threat and took steps. Working for them would forward the plot. But how could shepard possibly end up working for them if he didn't die? Especially after what they did in ME1? As a side-note, people treat shepard with distrust when he's alive so it served the purpose of alienating you from your previous allies. 

Again, this is just my opinion

That was smudboy's whole point, they just used the resurrection as a blatant plot device.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...


That was smudboy's whole point, they just used the resurrection as a blatant plot device.

His opinion was that it was handled badly. I think it was handled rather well. Opinions! 

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...


That was smudboy's whole point, they just used the resurrection as a blatant plot device.

His opinion was that it was handled badly. I think it was handled rather well. Opinions! 

So having someone die, then ressurect him without much explanation just so he can join a terrorist group..is handled rather well? Now, if you like it you like it. But some people also like Justin Bieber, that doesn't make him a good singer.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...


So having someone die, then ressurect him without much explanation just so he can join a terrorist group..is handled rather well? Now, if you like it you like it. But some people also like Justin Bieber, that doesn't make him a good singer.

Not giving an in-depth explanation makes perfect sense considering it's cerberus that rebuilt him. And honestly, can you think of a better way of getting Shepard to join cerberus - the only organization with the necessary ressources and motivation to stop the reapers? I can't since they're rogue. And the alliance wouldn't do such a thing since that would ****** off the council, and the council itself has "dismissed that claim". 

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...


So having someone die, then ressurect him without much explanation just so he can join a terrorist group..is handled rather well? Now, if you like it you like it. But some people also like Justin Bieber, that doesn't make him a good singer.

Not giving an in-depth explanation makes perfect sense considering it's cerberus that rebuilt him. And honestly, can you think of a better way of getting Shepard to join cerberus - the only organization with the necessary ressources and motivation to stop the reapers? I can't since they're rogue. And the alliance wouldn't do such a thing since that would ****** off the council, and the council itself has "dismissed that claim". 

But he found a 37 million year old reaper...

[Balek-Vriege]

100k wrote...

*My changes are not to make ME2 different from the original game-- merely to expand upon the appropriate content in the game. Don't think of this as "100k's Mass Effect 2 fix". Think of it as "Mass Effect 2: Directors Cut."

I remember watching smudboy's videos on where ME2 failed, and where it should've been perfected. He brought up some interesting points, but I feel that he was far too harsh on ME2's story. That being said, I agree with much of what he said regarding its lack of proper plot, pacing, or character development for Shepard (which the player should be able to control, but is never given the option to).

Smudboy wanted to completely rewrite ME2, with half of the main cast combined with other cast members to save time, and, what he felt, were just foolish characters to begin with. He also felt that all of the characters needed to be plot integral, so that they would have proper roles in the game. I feel, however, that these characters didn't need to be removed or combined. I'll explain why later.

You will notice that MY ME2 is very accurate to the current one. I feel that the essentials of a good story are within the strained net that is ME2's existing story, and that what needed to happen most was simple expansion. However, the very beginning, very middle, and very end do have strong differences, that address the problems of tutorials, over arching plot, and a conclusion in that respective order. So lets begin.

/sniped rest so I don't plug up thread with the post

Good write up and I can't complain about it at its core.  However, it works from the standpoint that some of Smudboy's points that are questionable are indeed correct assessments.  In addition it's an armchair rewrite of what Bioware writers already wrote which is a lot easier then writing a plot/story yourself (and if I may say, for a video game with multiple choices and story arcs).  We have all watched great movies and read great novels only to think to ourselves "I think it would have been better this way," but could we have come up with the plot in the first place?  Maybe, but we didn't they did.  Also there's the question does the story really need a rewrite in the first place.  A lot of people who have played the games would probably not agree with one.

What I like about your post best is that it's presented the way you think the game should have played out rather than it being the only correct way it could have played out.  You don't try to bash the original writers as if everything they did was wrong and trash.  Instead, you simply showed how you would have written things differently.  To the point of extreme amount of detail/rewrite, but I can respect your approach moreso than Smudboy's approach.

SpiffySquee wrote...

Ok, I just have one complaint. I know some people agree with me and some do not. That's great. Makes the world a more interesting place. I don't mind if you disagree with my points. Hell, I'll admit you might find more organization in a bachelors. I think people are too hard on him for making the vids. The only difference, in that respect, between him and everyone here is that he puts more effort into it. (I should say in my defense ,for all those people who say I obsess about this kind of stuff that I have over 2000 videos on YouTube and less than 1% of them are argument videos for mass effect)

My complaint is why people keep saying I personally attacked him. I attacked his arguments and his presentation of them. I NEVER attacked his intelligence, character, or personal status. Everyone who has ever debated me here, may not like me, but they know I have never attacked someone on a personal level.

People need to learn the difference between attacking arguments/presentation methods, and attacking the person. Unless you think that every professor who ever wrote a paper to refute another professor was making a personal attack against them....

Great comparison.  People sometimes take things too personally when ideas they agree with are being refuted, rather than actually listening to the ideas presented in the rebuttal.  They sometimes don't digest the new information or old facts and end up dismissing them as personal attacks or insignificant.  If they took the new facts into account they would either come to a new conclusion, or a stronger, fairer and more fleshed out opinion of their original stance (even if the stance is smaller on scale).

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 28 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...


But he found a 37 million year old reaper...

And the council have their own reaper corpse just lying around at the citadel. That didn't prove anything to them since they believe it's a geth ship.

[Phaedon]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Kinda sad really that the people jumping at smudboy's throat "he needs to die" also have zero arguments against any of his points. Bioware boards really do have some weird people on them.

You have made at least three posts demanding an argument.

*chuckle*

Oh boy, this is something right here.
Smudboy had been around for at least a year on BSN and was involved in almost every single debate, do you really want us to make a list of all of them?

You must be new here, which is weird since your register date doesn't support that.

That obnoxious attitude he had from the videos? Yeah, he still had it here. Most of his posts were random inflammatory and ironic posts in various threads, most not pertaining to an argument.

And when in an argument, he would call names to anyone who would disagree with him, even politely. Most debate threads where he was involved ended up with them being locked because he insulted someone.

The truth is, smudboy was a passive aggressive ****hole of the highest caliber. 

Go ahead and ask Pacifien. She ended up having to "look over his threads" because of all the flamewars. The fact that his threads were not locked when other threads were locked because of much less name calling is one of the biggest disappointments I have always had with BSN moderators, no matter how much I respect them for attempting to moderate this internet s***hole.

Obviously posts like "Someone should euthanize smudboy" are extreme internet BS, but to request respect to smudboy is a very bad joke.

His arguments? As I said, they were rather weak, and no matter his attempts to change the subject, he would have to end up in name-calling or obvious argument devices as "Where?" or "Such as?". That in conjecture with being a terrible poster makes his arguments bad, because he couldn't support them by conventional means. Look at his threads, or his posts. 

There are a lot of better posters with much stronger arguments like iakus here, though I am not very happy with how they like to debate either. Though, frankly, I don't like how I debate either.

His ideas were terrible imo, I believe that at the same video he suggested space food that makes squadmates sick and combining Jack and Miranda into a single character. I won't go in detail, because I don't want any more time over this silly issue.

As for him and Squee? I do disagree with Squee at points, be it his RPG videos or his story ones. But, he is a very friendly guy, I can tell you that. And frankly, seeing as how smudboy tried to counter argument his videos by taking his points, and on purpose deciding to talk about something else (and from what I hear he ended up insulting him).

As for his intelligence and knowledge, I'll have to disagree with Squee here as well. I don't know what he is IQ is, but if it is high, he is wasting it. I ended up crying in a dark corner holding my pillow tightly (no, not really) when he briefly discarded modern chemistry and half of the elements of the periodic table in a single phrase.

So yes, this is why people hate him. Does he have some points?
Maybe. 

Is he a nice guy? No.
Is it OK to hate him? I think that it is to dislike him. Hate is a very strong word.

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...


But he found a 37 million year old reaper...

And the council have their own reaper corpse just lying around at the citadel. That didn't prove anything to them since they believe it's a geth ship.

Geth are 37 million years old?

[Guldhun2]

Phaedon wrote...
You have made at least three posts demanding an argument.

*chuckle*

Oh boy, this is something right here.
Smudboy had been around for at least a year on BSN and was involved in almost every single debate, do you really want us to make a list of all of them?

You must be new here, which is weird since your register date doesn't support that.

That obnoxious attitude he had from the videos? Yeah, he still had it here. Most of his posts were random inflammatory and ironic posts in various threads, most not pertaining to an argument.

And when in an argument, he would call names to anyone who would disagree with him, even politely. Most debate threads where he was involved ended up with them being locked because he insulted someone.

The truth is, smudboy was a passive aggressive ****hole of the highest caliber. 

Go ahead and ask Pacifien. She ended up having to "look over his threads" because of all the flamewars. The fact that his threads were not locked when other threads were locked because of much less name calling is one of the biggest disappointments I have always had with BSN moderators, no matter how much I respect them for attempting to moderate this internet s***hole.

Obviously posts like "Someone should euthanize smudboy" are extreme internet BS, but to request respect to smudboy is a very bad joke.

His arguments? As I said, they were rather weak, and no matter his attempts to change the subject, he would have to end up in name-calling or obvious argument devices as "Where?" or "Such as?". That in conjecture with being a terrible poster makes his arguments bad, because he couldn't support them by conventional means. Look at his threads, or his posts. 

There are a lot of better posters with much stronger arguments like iakus here, though I am not very happy with how they like to debate either. Though, frankly, I don't like how I debate either.

His ideas were terrible imo, I believe that at the same video he suggested space food that makes squadmates sick and combining Jack and Miranda into a single character. I won't go in detail, because I don't want any more time over this silly issue.

As for him and Squee? I do disagree with Squee at points, be it his RPG videos or his story ones. But, he is a very friendly guy, I can tell you that. And frankly, seeing as how smudboy tried to counter argument his videos by taking his points, and on purpose deciding to talk about something else (and from what I hear he ended up insulting him).

As for his intelligence and knowledge, I'll have to disagree with Squee here as well. I don't know what he is IQ is, but if it is high, he is wasting it. I ended up crying in a dark corner holding my pillow tightly (no, not really) when he briefly discarded modern chemistry and half of the elements of the periodic table in a single phrase.

So yes, this is why people hate him. Does he have some points?
Maybe. 

Is he a nice guy? No.
Is it OK to hate him? I think that it is to dislike him. Hate is a very strong word.

And with all that text, you have exactly zero agruments refuting anything Smudboy said, congratulations. No cake for you.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...


Geth are 37 million years old?

Of course not. All I'm saying is, the council is busy denying EVERYTHING shepard throws at them because it's easier than admitting the reapers actually exist.

And besides, would TIM really let shepard tell the council?

[Phaedon]

Guldhun2 wrote...
And with all that text, you have exactly zero agruments refuting anything Smudboy said, congratulations. No cake for you.

Smudboy's videos last for hours. I remember debating with him on:

• The quality of ME2's storyline,
• The Collector Base,
• Calling him out for insulting Paragons,
• The Lazarus Project.

These debates lasted for weeks, and these forums have a search feature. You can easily find my arguments with him somewhere. 

You wanted me to explain why people hate smudboy. I explained why. In fact, my first received PM was "Wait, you are managing to communicate with him? "

You want to talk why he is wrong? He is not always wrong. Sometimes he is right. As I said, go search for yourself.

That in no way makes his behavior a-okay. I don't know what it makes your defence of thereof, since I don't remember you participating in any arguments.

[Biotic Sage]

Smudboy just needs to learn to enjoy life more. There's a difference between being a cynic, which all of my friends claim I am ( clasim that I relentlessly am haha), and being a black hole of negativity and a chronic contrarian. Add in some deep anger (about what god only knows) and you have Smudboy. To a T.  He really isn't hurting anyone but himself.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 28 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[Illiandri]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
You have made at least three posts demanding an argument.

*chuckle*

Oh boy, this is something right here.
Smudboy had been around for at least a year on BSN and was involved in almost every single debate, do you really want us to make a list of all of them?

You must be new here, which is weird since your register date doesn't support that.

That obnoxious attitude he had from the videos? Yeah, he still had it here. Most of his posts were random inflammatory and ironic posts in various threads, most not pertaining to an argument.

And when in an argument, he would call names to anyone who would disagree with him, even politely. Most debate threads where he was involved ended up with them being locked because he insulted someone.

The truth is, smudboy was a passive aggressive ****hole of the highest caliber. 

Go ahead and ask Pacifien. She ended up having to "look over his threads" because of all the flamewars. The fact that his threads were not locked when other threads were locked because of much less name calling is one of the biggest disappointments I have always had with BSN moderators, no matter how much I respect them for attempting to moderate this internet s***hole.

Obviously posts like "Someone should euthanize smudboy" are extreme internet BS, but to request respect to smudboy is a very bad joke.

His arguments? As I said, they were rather weak, and no matter his attempts to change the subject, he would have to end up in name-calling or obvious argument devices as "Where?" or "Such as?". That in conjecture with being a terrible poster makes his arguments bad, because he couldn't support them by conventional means. Look at his threads, or his posts. 

There are a lot of better posters with much stronger arguments like iakus here, though I am not very happy with how they like to debate either. Though, frankly, I don't like how I debate either.

His ideas were terrible imo, I believe that at the same video he suggested space food that makes squadmates sick and combining Jack and Miranda into a single character. I won't go in detail, because I don't want any more time over this silly issue.

As for him and Squee? I do disagree with Squee at points, be it his RPG videos or his story ones. But, he is a very friendly guy, I can tell you that. And frankly, seeing as how smudboy tried to counter argument his videos by taking his points, and on purpose deciding to talk about something else (and from what I hear he ended up insulting him).

As for his intelligence and knowledge, I'll have to disagree with Squee here as well. I don't know what he is IQ is, but if it is high, he is wasting it. I ended up crying in a dark corner holding my pillow tightly (no, not really) when he briefly discarded modern chemistry and half of the elements of the periodic table in a single phrase.

So yes, this is why people hate him. Does he have some points?
Maybe. 

Is he a nice guy? No.
Is it OK to hate him? I think that it is to dislike him. Hate is a very strong word.

And with all that text, you have exactly zero agruments refuting anything Smudboy said, congratulations. No cake for you.

And you have missed the point of his post more than Bioware has according to smudboy.

[Guldhun2]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...


Geth are 37 million years old?

Of course not. All I'm saying is, the council is busy denying EVERYTHING shepard throws at them because it's easier than admitting the reapers actually exist.

And besides, would TIM really let shepard tell the council?

1.They were ok with a sound file proving saren and the geth (and the reapers) were after the attacks. But a 37 million year old starbase that looks at exactly like sovereign is not proof enough? How can they deny Reapers excist if there's one right there?

2. Yes, TIM is ok with involving the alliance and the council. He says so in the game.

[Phaedon]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Smudboy just needs to learn to enjoy life more. There's a difference between being a cynic, which all of my friends claim I am ( clasim that I relentlessly am haha), and being a black hole of negativity and a chronic contrarian. Add in some deep anger (about what god only knows) and you have Smudboy. To a T.

I sort of agree.

"GET A LIFE!" is not what I would really yell at smudboy. I get it that he feels invested in this universe, or the criticism of it, which has lead to a lot of personal fans.

I feel the same. To be honest, I have wasted more time posting here than enjoying various video games, since August 2010 (I just lurked before that).

My criticism is purely to some of his arguments, the manipulation in debates, and his behavior.

And I don't get why everyone is drooling over him. There are far more intelligent "plot analysts" here, with a better behavior.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Guldhun2 wrote...


1.They were ok with a sound file proving saren and the geth (and the reapers) were after the attacks. But a 37 million year old starbase that looks at exactly like sovereign is not proof enough? How can they deny Reapers excist if there's one right there?

2. Yes, TIM is ok with involving the alliance and the council. He says so in the game.

 <-- squee points out in this video how denying the reapers isn't as stupid as one might think.