6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

If Sovereign didn't even let Saren know everything about indoctrination, I really doubt that Sovereign would spill the beans on the Reapers' reproduction and the different materials that were used to make him.

[Whatever42]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

Most games have very low completion rates, not just RDR. Bioware stated that their goal with crafting the dialogue and narrative was to increase the percentage of people who listen to all the dialogue and that complete the story. They are succeeding. 

It's true that if this were a scientific experiment that more research is required. In science, more research is always required. But the correlation is enough that the experiments should continue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lol...80+ pages of people despearately trying to defend bad writing. 80 pages of flawed explanations, convoluted theories and ass-pulls.

And here we have the perfect proof that the writing was bad. If it takes 80+ pages of theories like this for the events to make even a semblance of sense, then its' already a faliure.

Really? Mass Effect 2's plot makes no sense because you've sat here for 80 pages criticizing it? Would the same logic apply if I did the same in a thread about Dragon Age?

Only if people defneding it produced 80 pages of exceptionaly contriever explanations backed up by wishfull thinking.

It's a shame that designation would be considered subjective. No doubt, you would be one of those "fanboys" claiming that the storyline is fine, while I claim to have proven the plot sucks.

I recommend you get off your high horse. They don't add credibility to your arguments.

That would depend on what aspects of hte story you'd be criticizing and how accurate your ctiticism is. You'd be surprised at how many poitns I'd agree with you.

And no, I wouldn't be one of those "fanboys". I'm not a fanboy of anything. And I'm harsh on everything - even moreso on things I like. No double-standards when it comes to rating things here.

And I quite like my high horse. The view from here is clear.
My arguments need no extra support, they're as solid as carbon nano-tubes.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I don't give a rat's butt if it's a "cinematic experience".  You don't sacrifice the quality of your writing, or the "does this make any effing sense?" filter, to "BUT IT LOOKS KEWL!" 

Well, there can be too much of that but it does often happen, yes. But I still think the quality of the writing is quite good, although I have given my criticisms of the main plot.

Again, ME2 has a 50% completion rate, compared to a 10% RDR completion rate. That's because of their approach and writing. Critics also have commented on the high quality of the writing. So you may not like the writing, and I respect your opinion, but you should realize that most other people do feel differently.

Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

I can appreciate your brand of trolling.
It sticks with the classics and even has time to branch out and explore new depths of douchbaggery.

Zeely was still better though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

Most games have very low completion rates, not just RDR. Bioware stated that their goal with crafting the dialogue and narrative was to increase the percentage of people who listen to all the dialogue and that complete the story. They are succeeding. 

It's true that if this were a scientific experiment that more research is required. In science, more research is always required. But the correlation is enough that the experiments should continue.

Nope. You have no proof that it's the story thats causing the increase. Might as well be the shooting bits.

Ask yourself how many people finished Gears of War or Call of Duty? How does thair story compare to ME?

[Sgt Stryker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ppl, if oyu listen to mirandas notes, she clearly mentions burns fro matmospheric re-entry (hence the suit didn't protect), extensive trauma damage (hence hte kinetic barriers did nothing) and adnvaced decomposition (since he was dead for days before they picked him up).

If the suit provided no protection against reentry, then Shepard would have been incinerated. Since neither Shepard nor the suit were incinerated (in LotSB, you see the state of the old N7 armor in Liara's apartment), we must conclude that the suit provided at least some protection (which is still better than none). Whether or not that was done by the kinetic barriers or the suit's plates is another debate.

No. Entry speeds would determine the amount of friction damage. Again, if you take someone to the top of the atmo and simply let them go, there would not be much of an entry burn. The friction of the atmo would counter the acceleration of gravity and the person would reach a terminal velocity.

True, there would be some entry burn - the atmo up top is thin, allowing greater speeds, but it wouldn't be like the space shuttle reentering the atmo or a meteor. Those objects are going very, very fast.

Except we SEE Sheppard burning and except we're TOLD that he had burns all over his body (and is he got thos burns despite hte suit, then his insides were cooked).

I'm not denying that Shepard suffered burns. I'm well aware of the audio logs. However, burn wounds =/= incineration. So, there are two possibilities: 1) Shepard came down slow enough that there was a minimal degree of reentry heating, or 2) the suit mitigated the effects of reentry heating somewhat (note: I am not saying it provided complete protection, as that would mean there were no burns at all).

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

Most games have very low completion rates, not just RDR. Bioware stated that their goal with crafting the dialogue and narrative was to increase the percentage of people who listen to all the dialogue and that complete the story. They are succeeding. 

It's true that if this were a scientific experiment that more research is required. In science, more research is always required. But the correlation is enough that the experiments should continue.

Nope. You have no proof that it's the story thats causing the increase. Might as well be the shooting bits.

Ask yourself how many people finished Gears of War or Call of Duty? How does thair story compare to ME?

Please start using a spellchecker.
Your trolling is less enjoyable when it looks like it was typed by a fourth grade drop out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

I can appreciate your brand of trolling.
It sticks with the classics and even has time to branch out and explore new depths of douchbaggery.

Zeely was still better though.

Too bad I can't say the same about you.

Your trolling is attrocious as is your capacity to string together coherent words. I'm surprised you got the faculty to breathe.
I can continue to insult you allday and night and won't get bored. But it's pointless.
Now quit the insult war while you're still ahead boy. Add something constructive to the conversaion. Insulting people is not it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

I can appreciate your brand of trolling.
It sticks with the classics and even has time to branch out and explore new depths of douchbaggery.

Zeely was still better though.

Too bad I can't say the same about you.

Your trolling is attrocious as is your capacity to string together coherent words. I'm surprised you got the faculty to breathe.
I can continue to insult you allday and night and won't get bored. But it's pointless.
Now quit the insult war while you're still ahead boy. Add something constructive to the conversaion. Insulting people is not it.

Hmmm "Herp-a-derp He was cinders! Cinders and ASH!!!!" "Herp-a-derp anyone who has a different opinion of the quality of the writing is foolish and should die in agony"

That's effectively what you've been saying.

[Iakus]

 I see no problem with the Reapers having some sort of organic component.  The example I cite woud be the starships of the Shadows in Babylon 5.  They required a living being as part of its cpu (interestingly, prolonged connection with the ships caused an indoctrincation-like effect) but this dependancy on organics didn't make the ships any less machines.

What I do have a problem with, however, is EDI somehow knowing how all this information about Reaper reproduction, that Reapers are cybernetic beings, that the gray goo is rendered down "essence of a species" Yet cannot or will not tell Shepard what the "essence of a species" is, nor does Shepard ask.

Or why the technoorganic frame of the Reaper has to take the form of the base creature.  A purely spacefaring race who spends 24/7 in a ship shaped like space-Cthulhu mimicing a race decended from arboreal primates?  How is that "evolution"?

[Sgt Stryker]

Is there some sort of unwritten rule that to be considered a "machine", you cannot have organic components, or components that use material derived from organic life?

Does that make my PC a cyborg? It has plenty of plastic components, and as we all know, plastic is derived from petroleum, which used to be biomass at one point.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:44 .

[Iakus]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I'm not denying that Shepard suffered burns. I'm well aware of the audio logs. However, burn wounds =/= incineration. So, there are two possibilities: 1) Shepard came down slow enough that there was a minimal degree of reentry heating, or 2) the suit mitigated the effects of reentry heating somewhat (note: I am not saying it provided complete protection, as that would mean there were no burns at all).

Just for accuracy's sake, if I'm mremembering the logs right, Miranda notes that the burns on Shepard's body were expected.  The real problems they had were from long term exposure to vacuum and freezing temperature.
 

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Is there some sort of unwritten rule that to be considered a "machine", you cannot have organic components, or components that use material derived from organic life?

By that definition, the first generation of Terminators aren't machines.

Which is a bad lie.

[Whatever42]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I don't think the writing is bad.  It's better than most of what's on TV, sadly. 

I think the writing in some instances could use improvement. 

Oh, I agree. No one is arguing that ME is a literary masterpiece. I simply argue that it achieves its purpose for vast majority of its players.

I don't say any one person should like the writing. This is a mass consumed product. Not everyone likes the same car. But I don't think Bioware is sloppy or lazy or has bad writers. They are producing what they mean to.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

We don't even know the true nature of the Reapers yet. Thats my whole point: its inconsistent, There is no A to B correlation any of it. One minute the Reapers eat organics yet they discard them, wtf? Saren is fully indoctrinated at this point and he says he understands. Was he lying? Did Sovereign make him lie? If so, why? He has no motive to lie. The Reapers consider the Geth to be annoyances? Ok, if the Geth are limited are they going to eat them? They are both organic and mechanic right? Why wouldn't they? If the Geth are so un-advanced to the point of being nothing worth harvesting, why are they harvesting advanced organic life to eat if they've already advanced passed that point? If they aren't, then how are they beyond our comprehension?

Let me provide a very basic example to demonstrate why Saren's claims are not inconsistent.

Let's say when you were a child, your parents convinced you that Japan doesn't exist. You've gone your entire life with this belief and (for whatever reason) you have chosen not to doubt it; you think it's true. Does whether or not you believe in the existence of Japan actually affect whether Japan exists? The answer, quite clearly, is no.

Saren thinks Sovereign is a machine. For whatever reason, Sovereign does not provide him the intimate details of Reaper culture. Saren's belief system does not mean that the Reapers are machines. This is typically how plot twists work; new information is introduced which alters how your character might perceive events.

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something. If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

[SandSanta]

Have you guys never seen Fifth Element? You know, when Lilu's ship burned in the atmosphere and they rebuilt her using only a finger or some nonsense? Was it realistic? No. Was it awesome? yes.

end of discussion.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

 I see no problem with the Reapers having some sort of organic component.  The example I cite woud be the starships of the Shadows in Babylon 5.  They required a living being as part of its cpu (interestingly, prolonged connection with the ships caused an indoctrincation-like effect) but this dependancy on organics didn't make the ships any less machines.

What I do have a problem with, however, is EDI somehow knowing how all this information about Reaper reproduction, that Reapers are cybernetic beings, that the gray goo is rendered down "essence of a species" Yet cannot or will not tell Shepard what the "essence of a species" is, nor does Shepard ask.

Or why the technoorganic frame of the Reaper has to take the form of the base creature.  A purely spacefaring race who spends 24/7 in a ship shaped like space-Cthulhu mimicing a race decended from arboreal primates?  How is that "evolution"?

In real life, they can't identify DNA in 24 hours either. But on CSI they can. It's just to keep things moving.

As to why it is what it is, we'll hopefully find that out. I don't think the evolution they crave has anything to do with the form of the creature and I don't think the form is anything more than artistic license, though.

As to Shepard's lack of curiousity, I've noticed Shepard isn't a very curious character, I admit.

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Well now, heres something interesting.

"I understand that the Reapers need organics"

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both the weaknesses of neither."

"The Reapers don't use organics, they devour and discard them as soon as the conquest is over you'll be cast aside"


Saren doesn't deny this, he acknowledges it

So they don't use us to procreate then?

This brings up an important question: If the Reapers believe that a combination of both is the pinnical, Why don't they also want to slaughter all synthetic life aka Geth?

My god, this is a mess, can somebody take 5 minutes to write this thing please?

EDIT: And why haven't they done so in the past? All they've said is that they exterminate organics, what about sentient machines?

The Reapers 'devour' organics...doesn't that suggest the Reapers are using them for something?

Are you totally ignorant of the games? The Reapers were going to slaughter the Geth! They saw them as tools, and were actually offended by them. This is stated in ME1. In ME2, Harbinger says about Legion "Geth: an annoyance, limited utitlity"

You are drawing conclusions based off of statements by people who have NO IDEA what the true nature of the Reapers are. Saren was a tool.

We don't even know the true nature of the Reapers yet. Thats my whole point: its inconsistent, There is no A to B correlation any of it. One minute the Reapers eat organics yet they discard them, wtf? Saren is fully indoctrinated at this point and he says he understands. Was he lying? Did Sovereign make him lie? If so, why? He has no motive to lie. The Reapers consider the Geth to be annoyances? Ok, if the Geth are limited are they going to eat them? They are both organic and mechanic right? Why wouldn't they? If the Geth are so un-advanced to the point of being nothing worth harvesting, why are they harvesting advanced organic life to eat if they've already advanced passed that point? If they aren't, then how are they beyond our comprehension?

Your whole point is wrong, because there hasn't been an inconsistency. You assuming the Reapers were purely mechanical is just that; an assumption. Seriously, stop saying it's inconsistent or a retcon. Say that you don't like the direction the plot went. There would be no issue here if you just did that.

I don't know where this whole idea of Reapers eating organics came from anyways. Who said that, Shepard? Once again, he has no idea what the Reaper's plans are, so he has no basis for that statement. That's only his interepretaiton of it.

Saren was fully indoctrinated, yes. That is irrelevant. That only means he's been mind controlled the believe what the Reapers are doing is right. Indoctrination doesn't mean the indoctrinated person magically knows everything about the Reapers.

And just because Sovereign says we are beyond their comprehension doesn't mean that's actually true...the whole idea of the Reapers was written by humans at Bioware, so we can comprehend their motives. Sovereign's answer was just a non-answer, he feels so superior to us he isn't even going to bother explaining.

The Geth are going to be destroyed. Not harvested. Only humans are being harvested. We don't know why yet. All other organic life is going to be eradicated. The Geth included.

...... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. Yes, Shepard said it, Saren acknowledged it. I never said that Saren being indoctrinated means he knows everything about the Reapers, it means that Sovereign would be able to control what hes saying if it is Sovereign speaking at all. Saren says he understands the Reapers, so does he know or not? Which is it? is he lying? If so, what are his motives to lie? Again is Sovereign lying? if so, what are his motives?  If Reapers are both in-organic and organic[/u] why wouldn't they harvest both Machine and organic What makes organics worth harvesting over machines?

See the info dump at the end of ME 2 doesn't provide an answer to these questions. There isn't enough inquiry on SHepards part for this to make sense because the question of what part of this is the truth, and was who was lying, who was speculating and what the facts are, aren't addressed, properly subverted, on EDI or Shepard's part speculating or explaining what we are actually supposed to know.  The game just handwaves them and moves on. It also doesn't explain how ALL Reapers are the same just by scanning [u]one.

Sovvy isn't controlling what Saren is saying, he just guides his thinking. That is what indoctrination is. Saren believs he understands the Reapers, because that is what Sovereign has influenced him into believing.

We don't know enough about why the Reapers do what they do to answer your questions. They will be answered in ME3. Just because not everything was answered in ME2 doesn't mean it's bad writing.

And EDI is making an assumption, based on what data she can gets.

Others have already responded to this, and you are just being ridiculously narrow minded, so until you start making sense and thinking things through I have nothing more to say to you.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 This thread is still going? How many implausibly irrelevant ''plot holes'' can you guys further argue about?

[SpiffySquee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ppl, if oyu listen to mirandas notes, she clearly mentions burns fro matmospheric re-entry (hence the suit didn't protect), extensive trauma damage (hence hte kinetic barriers did nothing) and adnvaced decomposition (since he was dead for days before they picked him up).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except we SEE Sheppard burning
and except we're TOLD that he had burns all over his body (and is he
got thos burns despite hte suit, then his insides were cooked).

Lotion, you really should watch the logs yourself before you try to use them in an argument.


Miranda, "In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and sub zero temperatures."


The burns and internal damage you claim she says are from atmospheric re-entry are from the explosions on the Normandy.It certainly says nothing about burns all over Shepard's body. That is simply you adding things in to make it help your point. All it tells us is that Shepard had at least 2 burns of unknown size somewhere on his body. They could have been small and isolated for all we know. So this does not help your argument at all. We have no proof that he received any severe burns from re-entry.

We also do not see him burning, we only see gas heating up. Since we have no way to measure how hot that gas is or how much heat the armor can take, we have no way of telling if it would cook shepard or not.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

SandSanta wrote...

Have you guys never seen Fifth Element? You know, when Lilu's ship burned in the atmosphere and they rebuilt her using only a finger or some nonsense? Was it realistic? No. Was it awesome? yes.

end of discussion.

I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare got the idea behind Shep's death from that movie, because the suspense lasted just as long. 

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

In real life, they can't identify DNA in 24 hours either. But on CSI they can. It's just to keep things moving.

But in this case it doesn't keep things moving.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

It was like Neo asking the Oracle howhe can be in the Matrix when he's not plugged in and she simply answers "Because you're the One"  It's an answer that's no answer at all

[100k]

SpiffySquee wrote...
Miranda, "In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and sub zero temperatures."


The burns and internal damage you claim she says are from atmospheric re-entry are from the explosions on the Normandy.It certainly says nothing about burns all over Shepard's body. That is simply you adding things in to make it help your point. All it tells us is that Shepard had at least 2 burns of unknown size somewhere on his body. They could have been small and isolated for all we know. So this does not help your argument at all. We have no proof that he received any severe burns from re-entry.

No. The "explosion" burns are from Shepard being burned when the Normandy blew up -- that much is true. The explosion hurled Shepard into space (and cracked his suit open against a wall). He likely was burned badly from within his suit -- though not enough to die.

We also do not see him burning, we only see gas heating up. Since we have no way to measure how hot that gas is or how much heat the armor can take, we have no way of telling if it would cook shepard or not.

Again -- no. We SEE Shepard burning upon re-entry into the atmosphere -- just like all objects that re-eter the atmopshere of any planet. That much is incredibly clear. There is no gas surrounding that planet, and nothing to ignite it with in Shepards case. In fact, I don't even know if gas burns in space -- but its an irrelevant question because Shepard wasn't on fire when he neared the planet -- thus no gas could trigger such an effect.  

But none of that explains how a (burning) human body falling from orbit remained intact after a plummet from at least 8 miles. It doesn't explain how Shepard's body managed to survive on the planet's surface when his armor was clearly shattered into pieces, and his helmet came off. The planet has no oxygen, and is freezing cold. 

We just need an explaination -- so as to not cheapen Shepard's death. 

[Iakus]

100k wrote...

We just need an explaination -- so as to not cheapen Shepard's death. 

Hate to break it too you, but that ship has already sailed 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:36 .