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Smudboy's Mass Effect series analysis.


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#2151
SpiffySquee

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100k wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
Miranda, "In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and sub zero temperatures."


The burns and internal damage you claim she says are from atmospheric re-entry are from the explosions on the Normandy.It certainly says nothing about burns all over Shepard's body. That is simply you adding things in to make it help your point. All it tells us is that Shepard had at least 2 burns of unknown size somewhere on his body. They could have been small and isolated for all we know. So this does not help your argument at all. We have no proof that he received any severe burns from re-entry.


No. The "explosion" burns are from Shepard being burned when the Normandy blew up -- that much is true. The explosion hurled Shepard into space (and cracked his suit open against a wall). He likely was burned badly from within his suit -- though not enough to die.


Really? Show me proof. We see air escaping. that could be from a minute crack and would not be big enough to cause burns along the entire body. The armor could still do it's job. 

The point is that there is no proof that the body burned up in atmo. Lotion said the log proved it happened, and that was false. There is no in game evidence that Shepards body was damaged what so ever by atmospheric re-entry. Since there is no way to tell how much heat re-entry caused or how much heat the suit can take, any argument that he received burns on re-entry is a woulda shoulda coulda arguments.

We also do not see him burning, we only see gas heating up. Since we have no way to measure how hot that gas is or how much heat the armor can take, we have no way of telling if it would cook shepard or not.


Again -- no. We SEE Shepard burning upon re-entry into the atmosphere -- just like all objects that re-eter the atmopshere of any planet. That much is incredibly clear. There is no gas surrounding that planet, and nothing to ignite it with in Shepards case. In fact, I don't even know if gas burns in space -- but its an irrelevant question because Shepard wasn't on fire when he neared the planet -- thus no gas could trigger such an effect.  

But none of that explains how a (burning) human body falling from orbit remained intact after a plummet from at least 8 miles. It doesn't explain how Shepard's body managed to survive on the planet's surface when his armor was clearly shattered into pieces, and his helmet came off. The planet has no oxygen, and is freezing cold. 

We just need an explaination -- so as to not cheapen Shepard's death. 




Not quite sure what you are referring to here, but I was talking about the gas in the planets atmosphere. I apologize if I was not clear on that. Plummeting 8 miles or 1000 feet makes no difference. terminal velocity is terminal velocity. There are several cases of people falling amazing distances at terminal velocity and not only remaining intact, but alive. And they were not wearing futuristic armor.

#2152
littlezack

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

I can appreciate your brand of trolling.
It sticks with the classics and even has time to branch out and explore new depths of douchbaggery.

Zeely was still better though.


Too bad I can't say the same about you.

Your trolling is attrocious as is your capacity to string together coherent words. I'm surprised you got the faculty to breathe.
I can continue to insult you allday and night and won't get bored. But it's pointless.
Now quit the insult war while you're still ahead boy. Add something constructive to the conversaion. Insulting people is not it.


Modifié par littlezack, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:48 .


#2153
Humanoid_Typhoon

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@littlezack

Lotion is a grandmaster in the art of fallacy and hypocrisy.

#2154
Xeranx

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...


Shepard can't move at terminal velocity prior to entering or entering the atmosphere from space.  Terminal velocity is when downward force (speed) equals upward force/pressure (air resistance) so that the object at terminal velocity is no longer accelerating.  In order for terminal velocity to be achieved Shepard has to be where the gravity of the planet actually starts to get a hold of him.

#2155
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Xeranx wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...


Shepard can't move at terminal velocity prior to entering or entering the atmosphere from space.  Terminal velocity is when downward force (speed) equals upward force/pressure (air resistance) so that the object at terminal velocity is no longer accelerating.  In order for terminal velocity to be achieved Shepard has to be where the gravity of the planet actually starts to get a hold of him.

Well, I can assume the planet got a hold of him,seeing as how he landed on it.

#2156
Il Divo

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Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.


Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.


Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.


What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.


I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said :P)


While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:43 .


#2157
Lotion Soronarr

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@littlezack

Lotion is a grandmaster in the art of fallacy and hypocrisy.


Alas, I have to cede that title to you.

#2158
Lotion Soronarr

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littlezack wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Causation DOES NOT equal correlation... and vice versa.

I can think of a dozen reason why the completion % can be different. Maybe mroe peopel enjoy Sci-fi comapred to westerns? Or maybe they didn't like the mechanics?

I can appreciate your brand of trolling.
It sticks with the classics and even has time to branch out and explore new depths of douchbaggery.

Zeely was still better though.


Too bad I can't say the same about you.

Your trolling is attrocious as is your capacity to string together coherent words. I'm surprised you got the faculty to breathe.
I can continue to insult you allday and night and won't get bored. But it's pointless.
Now quit the insult war while you're still ahead boy. Add something constructive to the conversaion. Insulting people is not it.


You got any point? Aside from me responding in kind after SEVERAL posts of insult? No?

Then STFU.

#2159
Lotion Soronarr

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Hmmm "Herp-a-derp He was cinders! Cinders and ASH!!!!" "Herp-a-derp anyone who has a different opinion of the quality of the writing is foolish and should die in agony"

That's effectively what you've been saying.


Yes..I have no doubt that's how you process everything said to you. you must convert it into a format you could understand after all.

Now, how about some actual well-though arguments insted of attempting cheap-shots, Ad Hominems and REductio Ad Absurdums?
No?
Well, silly me from expecting reason and civlity....

#2160
Someone With Mass

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The reason the geth can't advance beyond their current state of understanding is because they don't have the hardware for all of them to share data at once. When they do, I think they can surpass even the minds of the Reapers with ease.

#2161
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

silly me from expecting reason and civlity....

...after you just get done insulting someone....

#2162
Lotion Soronarr

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, I agree. No one is arguing that ME is a literary masterpiece. I simply argue that it achieves its purpose for vast majority of its players.

I don't say any one person should like the writing. This is a mass consumed product. Not everyone likes the same car. But I don't think Bioware is sloppy or lazy or has bad writers. They are producing what they mean to.


Everyone does. Again, by your logic, nothing is bad.
Twilight is a literal Masterpice.
Transformers are a story-telling epic!
SW EP 1-3 are sheer brilliance wihout flaw.
The Room has amazing writing and characters.

The greatest irony is that I can use the same lines of reasoning the fanboys here demonstrated to defend those horrors.

#2163
Someone With Mass

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

silly me from expecting reason and civlity....

...after you just get done insulting someone....


Or not being civil at all for the last thirty pages with the "that's garbage for reasons I won't bother to explain" attitude, for that matter.

#2164
Lotion Soronarr

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SandSanta wrote...

Have you guys never seen Fifth Element? You know, when Lilu's ship burned in the atmosphere and they rebuilt her using only a finger or some nonsense? Was it realistic? No. Was it awesome? yes.

end of discussion.


It wasn't awesome.

#2165
Biotic Sage

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@ Lotion Soronnar

While I agree with your point that there does have to be some degree of objectivity when judging the quality of creative works, you can be rather dismissive and hostile in the presentation of your assertions.

#2166
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SandSanta wrote...

Have you guys never seen Fifth Element? You know, when Lilu's ship burned in the atmosphere and they rebuilt her using only a finger or some nonsense? Was it realistic? No. Was it awesome? yes.

end of discussion.


It wasn't awesome.


IT WAS AWESOME, AND BECAUSE MY OPINION IS CLEARLY THE SUPERIOR I WILL FLING IT AS FACT!

:mellow:..^_^..:P..:happy:..:D...:lol:...:)

#2167
Lotion Soronarr

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SpiffySquee wrote...

Miranda, "In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and sub zero temperatures."


There's no way the brain was salvegable in any way, shape of form.
I rest my case.

#2168
Lotion Soronarr

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Biotic Sage wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

While I agree with your point that there does have to be some degree of objectivity when judging the quality of creative works, you can be rather dismissive and hostile in the presentation of your assertions.


Despite me being a calm and friendly guy, when confronted with a wall of denial and anti-logic, and a score of personal insults, my fuse can get rather short.

I like ME2. But to some, not worshiping it is equal to betrayl and hate.

#2169
111987

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

While I agree with your point that there does have to be some degree of objectivity when judging the quality of creative works, you can be rather dismissive and hostile in the presentation of your assertions.


Despite me being a calm and friendly guy, when confronted with a wall of denial and anti-logic, and a score of personal insults, my fuse can get rather short.

I like ME2. But to some, not worshiping it is equal to betrayl and hate.


The psychologist in me finds it fascinating the way you percieve yourself...the disconnect between reality and the reality in your mind is startling.

#2170
Il Divo

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111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

While I agree with your point that there does have to be some degree of objectivity when judging the quality of creative works, you can be rather dismissive and hostile in the presentation of your assertions.


Despite me being a calm and friendly guy, when confronted with a wall of denial and anti-logic, and a score of personal insults, my fuse can get rather short.

I like ME2. But to some, not worshiping it is equal to betrayl and hate.


The psychologist in me finds it fascinating the way you percieve yourself...the disconnect between reality and the reality in your mind is startling.


This would be a wonderful opportunity to side track us for a discussion on Cartesian doubt.

#2171
Lotion Soronarr

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Hang you imaginary degree on your imaginary wall.

I know very well how I view and rate thing and what I like and dislike - YOU don't. You can assume, infer and fantasize if you wish.

#2172
Therefore_I_Am

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Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

We don't even know the true nature of the Reapers yet. Thats my whole point: its inconsistent, There is no A to B correlation any of it. One minute the Reapers eat organics yet they discard them, wtf? Saren is fully indoctrinated at this point and he says he understands. Was he lying? Did Sovereign make him lie? If so, why? He has no motive to lie. The Reapers consider the Geth to be annoyances? Ok, if the Geth are limited are they going to eat them? They are both organic and mechanic right? Why wouldn't they? If the Geth are so un-advanced to the point of being nothing worth harvesting, why are they harvesting advanced organic life to eat if they've already advanced passed that point? If they aren't, then how are they beyond our comprehension?


Let me provide a very basic example to demonstrate why Saren's claims are not inconsistent.

Let's say when you were a child, your parents convinced you that Japan doesn't exist. You've gone your entire life with this belief and (for whatever reason) you have chosen not to doubt it; you think it's true. Does whether or not you believe in the existence of Japan actually affect whether Japan exists? The answer, quite clearly, is no.

Saren thinks Sovereign is a machine. For whatever reason, Sovereign does not provide him the intimate details of Reaper culture. Saren's belief system does not mean that the Reapers are machines. This is typically how plot twists work; new information is introduced which alters how your character might perceive events.


Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something. If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said :P)



It's good for an Evil that big to remain unknown and their motives to remain a mystery. Ever read books from H.P. Lovecraft? He started the Cosmic Horror trope. It's better to not understand antagonists such as Reapers, because fully understanding the Reapers would really "defang" the threat. Then again, it's probably not possible to understand them. The unknown is mankind's biggest fear. Giving us some cryptic info here and there although can give us and the protagonist a sense of dread.
The whole point of the Reapers is not to understand them, but to fear them.

Here's more info on the trope tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CosmicHorrorStory

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:18 .


#2173
SpiffySquee

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Miranda, "In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and sub zero temperatures."


There's no way the brain was salvegable in any way, shape of form.
I rest my case.


So instead of at least admitting you did not understand or listen to what you were trying to quote, you just pretend my post did not happen and run off in another direction? The part of the quote you bolded had nothing to do with my argument. You think shep being resurrected is BS. You are entitled to your opinion. My argument was that you were telling people that they should just listen to what Miranda said because it proved your argument. You were flat out wrong. You obviously did not even remember what she said. Look, everyone mis-quotes things from time to time. When this happens, however, you should man up and admit it. then you can move on with your other points. Don't try to sweep it under the rug.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:18 .


#2174
100k

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...


Do you know what happens to most small asteroids that are just "floating" in space and get pulled into Earth's gravitational pull? They burn up. Its stupid to think the same thing wouldn't happen to Shepard -- and even worse to argue against it when we clearly see him burning up. 

#2175
Humanoid_Typhoon

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100k wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...


Do you know what happens to most small asteroids that are just "floating" in space and get pulled into Earth's gravitational pull? They burn up. Its stupid to think the same thing wouldn't happen to Shepard -- and even worse to argue against it when we clearly see him burning up. 

Do you know how fast an object like that moves?
Not to mention the planet you land on has less gravity and atmospheric pressure than Earth...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .