6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

100k wrote...

But I just don't see how a human body can endure a fall from orbit. 

Like the other N7 graduates, Shepard was strong and swift and brave. A natural leader.

But Shepard had something they didn't. Something no one saw, but me.

Can you guess?

Luck.

<_<

[Eckswhyzee]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

100k wrote...

But I just don't see how a human body can endure a fall from orbit. 

Like the other N7 graduates, Shepard was strong and swift and brave. A natural leader.

But Shepard had something they didn't. Something no one saw, but me.

Can you guess?

Luck.

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.jpg^_^^_^

...and that's why my maleshep is named John.

[Whatever42]

Actually, we see the affects of friction very quickly after the Normandy explosion. This actually suggests that they are in the upper atmosphere. And Shepard was not in an orbit so he was not at orbital speeds. Looking at the cut scene, he also appears to be propelled away from the current momentum of the Normandy, which means that he likely wasn't starting his fall with any considerable velocity toward the planet. He was certainly accelerating, of course.

So we see that the air pressure of the planet is 83% but the gas is 56% as dense, which does suggest a thicker atmo, but I don't see how a less dense gas would lead to a more dense upper atmo? Also, the gravity is only 85% of Earth's, which means less acceleration. I'd need to be a physics major to do all the math involved. Regardless, it wouldn't be wildly different than an experience on Earth. It's not like its Mars or Venus. So using the Earth's atmo as an example isn't terribly wrong, I don't think.

So the world record free fall speed at over 31km I believe is around ~1000 kph, which is about ~275 m/s. Friction wasn't a problem in a space suit for that man at those speeds, only pressure and cold. That's actually still pretty low in the atmo, so Shepard could pick up some velocity before he starts to slow down because of atmospheric friction. However, its still a far cry from something like the space shuttle, which enters the atmo at 8200 m/s or a meteor impact at 10000 m/s to 70000 m/s.

Starting Shep off at about 100 km (which is the Earth line for atmospheric entry effects), and assuming he accelerates to the point of our freefaller, that's about 70km.

With the lesser gravity, assuming no deceleration from gravity, I believe he would be travelling at about 1100 m/s by that 30 km point. Of course, there would be considerable friction before then, slowing Shepard down. I have no real idea, given the atmo, what entry burn he would suffer (lets find a physicist to do the math) but it wouldn't be hugely significant. Shepard can stand in a flamethrower for several seconds and live, I doubt it would be anything approaching that.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 03 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[111987]

111987 wrote...

Actually, didn't Jacob say that Shepard was just like 'meat and tubes' when he was first recovered?

www.youtube.com/watch

7:07 in the video. This suggests Shepard's body was destroyed, but there was still a significant amount of tissue.

[Sgt Stryker]

 Let's also not forget about the visuals shown here.

Note the before & after shots of Shepard's mangled skeleton at 0:25 and a repaired body at 0:45.

[aznricepuff]

The Silent wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

The Silent wrote...

Alchera has a very dense atmosphere of ammonia and methane, so an object entering the atmosphere would experience far greater heating from friction than an equivalent object entering Earth's atmosphere.

Wrong.  It's less dense than Earth's.  Roughly 20% less.

No, atmospheric pressure is ~20% less. Earth's atmosphere is composed mainly of ~80% N2 and ~20% O2. As a weighted average, air molecules have an atomic mass of ~29.

Alchera has a methane/ammonia mixture. Methane has an atomic mass of ~16, ammonia ~17. Much lower than the average mass of an air molecule. To exert 80% of the pressure found on Earth means you need a much thicker and denser atmosphere, which means much more frictional heating.

No, again, wrong. Shep would hit terminal velocity way before impact.  And people have survived terminal velocity falls, with remarkably few injuries to boot. I posted three examples in this thread just a little while ago.

Pay attention. These people are not FALLING INTO EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE whilst travelling at orbital velocities. They start at a downward velocity of 0 m/s and reach a terminal velocity of ~60m/s.

Shepard would be travelling extremely fast in space. Even if he started at 0m/s (hint: HE DOESN'T) he falls for a considerable time before encountering the atmosphere, and therefore has NO TERMINAL VELOCITY because there is no atmosphere to slow him. He would be travelling hundreds of times faster than terminal velocity on Earth at the very least.

This is basic physics and chemistry knowledge. Please educate yourself before commenting.

Shepard is also not necessarily falling at orbital velocities, in fact we don't know how fast he's going. He has some initial speed with respect to the planet since he was blown out of the Normandy, but that's on the order of 10^1 m/s - insignificant to say the least. Based on the cinematic, he falls for about 30 seconds before he hits atmosphere (apparently enough atmosphere that you can see contrails). Assuming that Alchera has a mass comparable to that of Earth, Shepard would have been falling at about 250-300 m/s when he hits atmosphere.

That's nowhere near the speeds necessary for aerodynamic heating to generate any kind of appreciable heat. Now, sure if we assume Shepard had a lot more initial velocity maybe he would have burned up. But since his body wasn't completely vaporized and we're never told or shown conclusively what his initial velocity was, why can't we just assume his initial velocity was low enough for him not to be vaporized?

And by the way, your argument for the density of the atmosphere is completely wrong. It has no basis in chemistry or physics. All I will say is: review the ideal gas law. I won't say anything more about this because there are too many unknowns for me to even begin to estimate the density (even the relative density to that of Earth's) of Alchera's atmosphere.

[Iakus]

 Okay, concerning SHepard's body:

We can all pretty much agree that the records confirm that he was burned, bludgeoned, suffocated, exposed to vacuum, smacked into a planet at high speed (exact speed may be in doubt) and left on the surface of a frozen planet for several weeks.  This is the minimum that happened to his body.  I believe it is also more than enough to demonstrate that Shepard was very thoroughly dead.

The problem then comes from the Cure for Death which revived Shepard "exactly" as before with no explanation.  Now it's one thing if the mystery behind Shepard's return is treated as...a mystery (such as "The Witcher") or if the return itself involved some in depth quest ("Jade Empire") or even involved Sufficiently Advanced technology we aren't supposed to understand ("Babylon 5")  It's rare, but death and ressurecton can be done well.

But in Shepard's case, it basically involved a prolonged hospital stay.  It was treated as such and promptly fogotten, having served its purpose as a game reset.  

Death is, or shoud be, a bigger deal than that.  Death is is the ultimate transformation a human can undergo.  Beyond a certain narrow window, death is final, you don't come back.  But somehow Shepard did.  And nobody questions it.  Not his friends.  Not his enemies.  Not medical experts like Chakwas or Mordin.  Not Joker or the VS, the last to see Shepard alive and have some idea how thorough his death was.  Not Miranda or The Illusive Man, who oversaw the process of Cerberus conquering death.  Not even Shepard himself.  

Nobody knows how Shepard was brought back from death, and nobody cares.  Both are bad, but the second is especially so.

[111987]

I think the fact that 'nobody cares' is because it would become VERY tedious to repeat the same conversation over and over again with every character.

NPC 1: "Shepard? What are you doing here, I thought you were dead!"
Shepard: "Well you see..."*insert long explanation here*

Several hours into the game later...

NPC 112: "Shepard? What are you doing here, I thought you were dead!"
Shepard: ...

[The Man on the Moon]

They are predicting that in the next 10-25 years we will have the technology to recreate essentially grow human organs, also in the next 10-25 years we will be able to back up human memory. Now if this is true is it such a far assumption to believe that within the next 200 years with advanced alien tech and a limitless amount of finance we will be able to resurrect one from the death. Then again this whole argument is useless considering the fact that this is science fiction and by no means does it need any true realism because it essentially is just an
from normality and realism.

[FoxShadowblade]

The Man on the Moon wrote...

They are predicting that in the next 10-25 years we will have the technology to recreate essentially grow human organs, also in the next 10-25 years we will be able to back up human memory. Now if this is true is it such a far assumption to believe that within the next 200 years with advanced alien tech and a limitless amount of finance we will be able to resurrect one from the death. Then again this whole argument is useless considering the fact that this is science fiction and by no means does it need any true realism because it essentially is just an
from normality and realism.

This.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

If we take a page from Confused Matthew's Screenwriting Lesson 101:

KEEP
THE
F***
TRACK
OF
WHAT
YOU
MAKE
YOUR
CHARACTERS
SAY!

I have a feeling this because the idea of the Reapers ALL being organic somewhat had not come up yet.

The same way Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father.

In Episode V there are many things leading up to it. Vader's reaction to Luke being alive, the fact that Yoda speaks of how Luke is like his father, and how that goes against the Jedi ways, and that Luke sees himself in Vader's suit during his vision, And Yoda hints of another leading to the Leia twist. Yoda remarks in ROTJ how Luke was not ready for the burden, thus explaining Obi-Wan's story. This also evidenced to how Luke reacts to the twist, and how it changed his character.

"I'm suprised no-one can tell Sovereign  isn't geth technology- didn't they examine the wreakage?"

"Theres no way to account for even half of that thing, but something was strange. The pieces we examined had some strange organic like susbstance inside of them. It didn't match any known organic signatures in the galaxy, so we thought it to be something artificial"

"EDI: Shepard I have found something strange: the derilect reaper is emmiting both organic and non organic signatures"

"Thats odd. There's nothing alive on here except us"

[Biotic Sage]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

*Takes out a can of Zealot-Away and sprays in your direction*

[111987]

The wreckage of Sovereign was just the shell, which does not have organic components in it.

As for the Derelict Reaper; EDI was only able to detect non-organic signals once Shepard was in close proximity to the Reaper Core. We did not go to the Reaper Core in the Derelict Reaper; we went to the Element Zero Core. Plus, there were dozens of Husks and Scions; that would have accounted for any other organic life signs on the ship.

And for the last bloody time, Saren does not have knowledge about the Reapers. He has been indoctrinated. This means his thinking is guided into believing the Reaper's goals are correct. That doesn't mean he fully understands what these goals are. Why would Sovereign let him in on the Reaper's greatest secrets? He wouldn't.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

If we take a page from Confused Matthew's Screenwriting Lesson 101:

KEEP
THE
F***
TRACK
OF
WHAT
YOU
MAKE
YOUR
CHARACTERS
SAY!

I have a feeling this because the idea of the Reapers ALL being organic somewhat had not come up yet.

The same way Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father.

In Episode V there are many things leading up to it. Vader's reaction to Luke being alive, the fact that Yoda speaks of how Luke is like his father, and how that goes against the Jedi ways, and that Luke sees himself in Vader's suit during his vision, And Yoda hints of another leading to the Leia twist. Yoda remarks in ROTJ how Luke was not ready for the burden, thus explaining Obi-Wan's story. This also evidenced to how Luke reacts to the twist, and how it changed his character.

"I'm suprised no-one can tell Sovereign  isn't geth technology- didn't they examine the wreakage?"

"Theres no way to account for even half of that thing, but something was strange. The pieces we examined had some strange organic like susbstance inside of them. It didn't match any known organic signatures in the galaxy, so we thought it to be something artificial"

"EDI: Shepard I have found something strange: the derilect reaper is emmiting both organic and non organic signatures"

"Thats odd. There's nothing alive on here except us"

Who ever said they needed organics to servive? In ME1 we know they harvest us and in ME2 we find that they harvest us to make more reapers. Making more is not serviving, it's enduring the spieces. Remeder, these are arace that live billions of year with no refuel. Their bodies keep going after they die. They don't need organics to servive.

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

The wreckage of Sovereign was just the shell, which does not have organic components in it.

As for the Derelict Reaper; EDI was only able to detect non-organic signals once Shepard was in close proximity to the Reaper Core. We did not go to the Reaper Core in the Derelict Reaper; we went to the Element Zero Core. Plus, there were dozens of Husks and Scions; that would have accounted for any other organic life signs on the ship.

And for the last bloody time, Saren does not have knowledge about the Reapers. He has been indoctrinated. This means his thinking is guided into believing the Reaper's goals are correct. That doesn't mean he fully understands what these goals are. Why would Sovereign let him in on the Reaper's greatest secrets? He wouldn't.

So, does that mean that the Reapers are making him think he knows this? Indoctrinated or not, HOW DOES SAREN KNOW THIS? Is he wrong? lying? Again, EDI doesn't know any of this to be sure, she just knows that this Reaper is organic, the rest is wild speculation on her part.

EDI, Shepard, Vigil, Saren, Sovereign and Sqaudmates all make statements as if they know these things.

EDI is right to infer that this Reaper is organic based on data. Everything else she says has just as much evidence to support as what the everyone else says.

Does Saren know? If so, how? Is he speculating? is he lying? If so, why?
Does Sovereign know? Yes, because he is a Reaper, so does that mean he is lying? If so, why? What are his motives?
Does Vigil know? If so how? Is he lying? Speculating? He seems to know everything else about them, conveniently.
Does Shepard know? If so, how? Is he speculating? He calls the Reapers "machines" mutiple times and Saren, nor Sovereign ever correct him. EDI corrects him out of nowhere is Mass Effect 2 by concluding somehow that Reapers aren't "just machines" even though the Human Reaper is just one Reaper that could have been an experiment. What are EDI's basis for these claims? As much as anyone else, therefore, if EDI knows magically that they reproduce by absorbing the "eccense" of a species (which it isn't explained what that means) then everyone else has as much basis for these claims as she does.

The line between what is fact and what is purely speculation results in a massive contradiction of what characters think they know and going guesses isn't clear. If its not a retcon,, it undermines the entire plot of ME 1. This thing doesn't make any sense.

CAN SOMEONE WRITE THIS THING PLEASE?

[Notlikeyoucare]

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

If we take a page from Confused Matthew's Screenwriting Lesson 101:

KEEP
THE
F***
TRACK
OF
WHAT
YOU
MAKE
YOUR
CHARACTERS
SAY!

I have a feeling this because the idea of the Reapers ALL being organic somewhat had not come up yet.

The same way Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father.

In Episode V there are many things leading up to it. Vader's reaction to Luke being alive, the fact that Yoda speaks of how Luke is like his father, and how that goes against the Jedi ways, and that Luke sees himself in Vader's suit during his vision, And Yoda hints of another leading to the Leia twist. Yoda remarks in ROTJ how Luke was not ready for the burden, thus explaining Obi-Wan's story. This also evidenced to how Luke reacts to the twist, and how it changed his character.

"I'm suprised no-one can tell Sovereign  isn't geth technology- didn't they examine the wreakage?"

"Theres no way to account for even half of that thing, but something was strange. The pieces we examined had some strange organic like susbstance inside of them. It didn't match any known organic signatures in the galaxy, so we thought it to be something artificial"

"EDI: Shepard I have found something strange: the derilect reaper is emmiting both organic and non organic signatures"

"Thats odd. There's nothing alive on here except us"

Who ever said they needed organics to servive? In ME1 we know they harvest us and in ME2 we find that they harvest us to make more reapers. Making more is not serviving, it's enduring the spieces. Remeder, these are arace that live billions of year with no refuel. Their bodies keep going after they die. They don't need organics to servive.

EDI speculates that they "utilise them in their reproduction process" That sounds like they need organics regardless of wether or not it keeps them alive. If they didn't need organics THEN WHY ARE THEY PART OF THE REAPERS BEING?

New theory: this plot sucks.

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

The wreckage of Sovereign was just the shell, which does not have organic components in it.

As for the Derelict Reaper; EDI was only able to detect non-organic signals once Shepard was in close proximity to the Reaper Core. We did not go to the Reaper Core in the Derelict Reaper; we went to the Element Zero Core. Plus, there were dozens of Husks and Scions; that would have accounted for any other organic life signs on the ship.

And for the last bloody time, Saren does not have knowledge about the Reapers. He has been indoctrinated. This means his thinking is guided into believing the Reaper's goals are correct. That doesn't mean he fully understands what these goals are. Why would Sovereign let him in on the Reaper's greatest secrets? He wouldn't.

So, does that mean that the Reapers are making him think he knows this? Indoctrinated or not, HOW DOES SAREN KNOW THIS? Is he wrong? lying? Again, EDI doesn't know any of this to be sure, she just knows that this Reaper is organic, the rest is wild speculation on her part.

EDI, Shepard, Vigil, Saren, Sovereign and Sqaudmates all make statements as if they know these things.

EDI is right to infer that this Reaper is organic based on data. Everything else she says has just as much evidence to support as what the everyone else says.

Does Saren know? If so, how? Is he speculating? is he lying? If so, why?
Does Sovereign know? Yes, because he is a Reaper, so does that mean he is lying? If so, why? What are his motives?
Does Vigil know? If so how? Is he lying? Speculating? He seems to know everything else about them, conveniently.
Does Shepard know? If so, how? Is he speculating? He calls the Reapers "machines" mutiple times and Saren, nor Sovereign ever correct him. EDI corrects him out of nowhere is Mass Effect 2 by concluding somehow that Reapers aren't "just machines" even though the Human Reaper is just one Reaper that could have been an experiment. What are EDI's basis for these claims? As much as anyone else, therefore, if EDI knows magically that they reproduce by absorbing the "eccense" of a species (which it isn't explained what that means) then everyone else has as much basis for these claims as she does.

The line between what is fact and what is purely speculation results in a massive contradiction of what characters think they know and going guesses isn't clear. If its not a retcon,, it undermines the entire plot of ME 1. This thing doesn't make any sense.

CAN SOMEONE WRITE THIS THING PLEASE?

Ugh you're really going to make me explain all of this to you? Ugh.......

Saren: Saren is indoctrinated. He believes he knows the Reaper's goals, but what he knows about them is only what Sovereign has told him. We know Sovvy has lied to him; Saren is deluded into believing he knows what Sovvy wants. We know Sovvy is lying to him because in ME2, Harbinger says this about the Turians; "Turians...you are considered...too primitive." Meaning Saren was duped by Sovereign, showing that Saren did not know or understand the Reapers at all.

Sovereign: Sovvy never says he isn't part organic. Why would he bother correcting Shepard when he says Sovvy is just a machine? "You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!"  "Err, well actually i'm not a machine, I have organic components"....see how that doesn't fit, or sound good/right?

Vigil: Vigil knows nothing about the construction methods of the Reapers; how could he? And since when did Vigil know everything else about the Reapers? He understood their plan and their trap, but when you question him on why they would do this, he says he has no idea. Thus proving he does not have a complete and full understanding of the Reapers.

Shepard: Shepard has even less information than the three I've already discussed; whatever he says is just speculation. As I said, Saren doesn't correct him because Saren doesn't know any better, and Sovereign has no interest in correcting Shepard. You really think a million year old AI warship with a god complex is going to care about the accuracy of whatever petty threats an organic creature throws at him?

EDI: Her hypothesis, that Reapers are part organic, is the only one of these claims that actually has evidence supporting it. It is the only Reaper that we see in its core form, and it has organic goo in it. This doesn't necesarrily mean that all Reapers are built like that, but it's an assumption with at least some basis of proof. The one Reaper we have studied closely has some organic parts.

This does not undermine the plot of ME1. Stop throwing out huge exaggerations like that please. It only weakens your argument because you sound like you're just raving.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

I think the fact that 'nobody cares' is because it would become VERY tedious to repeat the same conversation over and over again with every character.

NPC 1: "Shepard? What are you doing here, I thought you were dead!"
Shepard: "Well you see..."*insert long explanation here*

Several hours into the game later...

NPC 112: "Shepard? What are you doing here, I thought you were dead!"
Shepard: ...

If I can take planet scanning and probes, I can take that...

But in any case, they should have gone with either

1) Choose , shall we say, "less dramatic" way to remove Shepard from the galactic scene fro two years
or
2) Offset the lack of public exclamation top his return with some private conversations/reflection concerning his return.

We have four people on the Normandy that Shepard knew in ME1:  Garrus, Tali, Chakwas and Joker.  Joker was there when he died!

We have Miranda the head of the Lazarus Project

We have Mordin, the Scientist Salarian

Plus 8-10 other individuals on the Normandy from all walks of life.  Even if they add a single conversation with each of them about the concept of death and returning from death, that likely would have covered that base nicely. As it is, even if you ask Miranda about the Lazarus Project, you get yet another nonanswer.  And you can't talk to any of the others about it. 

Modifié par iakus, 03 septembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

If we take a page from Confused Matthew's Screenwriting Lesson 101:

KEEP
THE
F***
TRACK
OF
WHAT
YOU
MAKE
YOUR
CHARACTERS
SAY!

I have a feeling this because the idea of the Reapers ALL being organic somewhat had not come up yet.

The same way Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father.

In Episode V there are many things leading up to it. Vader's reaction to Luke being alive, the fact that Yoda speaks of how Luke is like his father, and how that goes against the Jedi ways, and that Luke sees himself in Vader's suit during his vision, And Yoda hints of another leading to the Leia twist. Yoda remarks in ROTJ how Luke was not ready for the burden, thus explaining Obi-Wan's story. This also evidenced to how Luke reacts to the twist, and how it changed his character.

"I'm suprised no-one can tell Sovereign  isn't geth technology- didn't they examine the wreakage?"

"Theres no way to account for even half of that thing, but something was strange. The pieces we examined had some strange organic like susbstance inside of them. It didn't match any known organic signatures in the galaxy, so we thought it to be something artificial"

"EDI: Shepard I have found something strange: the derilect reaper is emmiting both organic and non organic signatures"

"Thats odd. There's nothing alive on here except us"

Who ever said they needed organics to servive? In ME1 we know they harvest us and in ME2 we find that they harvest us to make more reapers. Making more is not serviving, it's enduring the spieces. Remeder, these are arace that live billions of year with no refuel. Their bodies keep going after they die. They don't need organics to servive.

EDI speculates that they "utilise them in their reproduction process" That sounds like they need organics regardless of wether or not it keeps them alive. If they didn't need organics THEN WHY ARE THEY PART OF THE REAPERS BEING?

New theory: this plot sucks.

We don't KNOW WHY THEY ARE A PART OF THE REAPERS BEING! That's one of the huge questions to be answered in Mass Effect 3!

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Yes but in order for plot twists to work properly there needs to be a legitimate building to that point.

The same is true for the KOTOR plot twist which I won't spoil.

Good point.

Or Vader being Luke's father.

Actually, this is one of the more controversial plot twists in existence, which alot of people tend to overlook. From what I recall, Lucas did not plan Vader as Luke's father from the beginning. Worse than Mass Effect 2, since Obi-Wan Kenobi apparently knew the truth the entire time, but most fans tend to ignore that. It took Return of the Jedi to properly explain why Obi-Wan thought it prudent to "lie" to Luke, when he originally claimed that Vader murdered his father.

These things work because we see the bending of the plot and the twist starting to take shape.

What in Episode IV hinted at Vader being Luke's father?

The Reaper exposition dump is just tossed in there after a lot of convoluted garbage. It isn't developed, there's no progression. If we're told that indroctrinated servants lie to conceal the Reapers true nature or weakness, that would mean something.

If we're told by say Leigon for example that synthetics can only advance so far without the use constantly evolving organics, and maybe this is why the Geth are trying to understand us. Thus, hinting at the Reapers motives. Maybe the Geth decide to develop naturally but the Reapers would rather speed up the process by simply injecting organics physical embodiment into themselves, and the consequences of that.

The problem is, the plot twist isn't organic to the story. Nothing about the Reapers came up until that point.

I would have found that really interesting/enjoyable if implemented. It's actually a shame that Legion is recruited so late into the game, since that would have been a wonderful opportunity to build up the Reaper revelation.

Point is, When you bend it too hard too fast it breaks. (No that isn't what she said )

While I would agree that more exposition is needed, there were several moments to consider.

1) Codex Entry regarding Dragon's Teeth, which does hint at the Reapers collecting nutrients from organic bodies. Admittedly, this is rather small.

2) Saren's final dialogue where he elaborates on the perfection of Organic-Machine unification. I personally don't think that Saren was aware of the truth, but based on his narrative, I think it's a little too coincedental to think that the developers did not have the Human Reaper in mind.

Nothing in ME 1 pointed towards or even suggested that they even needed organics to survive, Sure the codex says Dragons Teeth remove organs and replace them entirely with mechanics, but nothing  states that they combine the two. I got the impression they just discarded it.

Saren's revalation wether he knew it or not hinted that this was to happen in the future , not that this has always been the case. The dialouge is somewhat negated by Shepards in that they don't use organics, which Saren acknowledges it.

If we take a page from Confused Matthew's Screenwriting Lesson 101:

KEEP
THE
F***
TRACK
OF
WHAT
YOU
MAKE
YOUR
CHARACTERS
SAY!

I have a feeling this because the idea of the Reapers ALL being organic somewhat had not come up yet.

The same way Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father.

In Episode V there are many things leading up to it. Vader's reaction to Luke being alive, the fact that Yoda speaks of how Luke is like his father, and how that goes against the Jedi ways, and that Luke sees himself in Vader's suit during his vision, And Yoda hints of another leading to the Leia twist. Yoda remarks in ROTJ how Luke was not ready for the burden, thus explaining Obi-Wan's story. This also evidenced to how Luke reacts to the twist, and how it changed his character.

"I'm suprised no-one can tell Sovereign  isn't geth technology- didn't they examine the wreakage?"

"Theres no way to account for even half of that thing, but something was strange. The pieces we examined had some strange organic like susbstance inside of them. It didn't match any known organic signatures in the galaxy, so we thought it to be something artificial"

"EDI: Shepard I have found something strange: the derilect reaper is emmiting both organic and non organic signatures"

"Thats odd. There's nothing alive on here except us"

Who ever said they needed organics to servive? In ME1 we know they harvest us and in ME2 we find that they harvest us to make more reapers. Making more is not serviving, it's enduring the spieces. Remeder, these are arace that live billions of year with no refuel. Their bodies keep going after they die. They don't need organics to servive.

EDI speculates that they "utilise them in their reproduction process" That sounds like they need organics regardless of wether or not it keeps them alive. If they didn't need organics THEN WHY ARE THEY PART OF THE REAPERS BEING?

New theory: this plot sucks.

Again, that is not the same as needed to servive. The amount of servival for a spiece is not deturman by amount but endurance and ability to change. You can have millions of one creature and a hot virus is introduce to it and everyone of it is killed. Their are many spieces that can start as one and be able to make many moreof itself. Repordution is not serviviblity, it's endurance of spieces. A reaper can live millions of years and need nothing more than what it has. A reaper body can even keep functioninglong after it's dead. The reapers just need organics to make more of them but they notdoing it just to make more. If that was the fact, they would not be fociusing on just harvesting humans and turning them into reapers. They would be trying to makereapers out of everyother race as well from ME2. They feel that being turn into them is an honour. The a race being turn to a reaper is to be made better.

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 septembre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Xeranx]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...

Shepard can't move at terminal velocity prior to entering or entering the atmosphere from space.  Terminal velocity is when downward force (speed) equals upward force/pressure (air resistance) so that the object at terminal velocity is no longer accelerating.  In order for terminal velocity to be achieved Shepard has to be where the gravity of the planet actually starts to get a hold of him.

Well, I can assume the planet got a hold of him,seeing as how he landed on it.

I mean to the point that terminal velocity can occur.  Shepard would have to be well inside the planet for that to happen.  Meaning that it wouldn't happen upon re-entry.  It would occur afterwards.

[Gatt9]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

100k wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@ 100k
Nothing "ignites" gas on re-entry...it's friction, as pointed out earlier,Shepard isn't the space shuttle,he is probbably moving at terminal velocity,not a couple times faster than sound...

Do you know what happens to most small asteroids that are just "floating" in space and get pulled into Earth's gravitational pull? They burn up. Its stupid to think the same thing wouldn't happen to Shepard -- and even worse to argue against it when we clearly see him burning up. 

Do you know how fast an object like that moves?
Not to mention the planet you land on has less gravity and atmospheric pressure than Earth...

He came in from high orbit,  unless the gravity was incredibly weak,  which isn't likely given that objects weren't floating,  he accelerated at an exponential(?) rate.  A human body with a sudden impact at 100mph is pretty devestating,  at the speed he'd likely obtain from high orbit he should've been seperated into a number of pieces even if he managed to reach the groud without burning up.

Human bodies are very fragile,  it's *highly* unlikely they could survive impact.

Further,  even if he was in orbit,  the absolute cold in space would've caused the fluid inside the cells themselves to freeze,  ripping the cells to shreds. 

Either way,  you're not picking up a corpse in relatively good shape.  The damage from either event is going to be fantastic.

You ignore the armor,fine,but you ignore that people have fallen from great distances and lived, I saw a story where a man was knocked unconscious by a lamp and then hurled 1/2 a mile by a tornado and walked away,humans are fragile,but sometimes people just refuse to die.

I'm not trying to be rude,  but armor?  Really?

We're not talking about a fall from a couple hundred feet,  we're talking about a fall many miles in length.  From high orbit.  That armor's not worth anything under those conditions,  it's not made to withstand atmospheric reentry,  because if it was,  bullets wouldn't be a problem.

Regardless,  even if we allow the armor,  you still have the "Car accident" problem.  The armor stops moving,  the body doesn't.  He's going to hit the inside of that armor at a phenomenal speed,  and when they open it up,  he's going to pour out all over the floor.  Goo is going to be pretty much all that's in there.

Because we know that the gravity of the planet is substantial if it's able to capture and pull the Normandy down,  if gravity was extremely weak,  Normandy wouldn't have dropped it would've formed a debris ring.

[Iakus]

The Man on the Moon wrote...

They are predicting that in the next 10-25 years we will have the technology to recreate essentially grow human organs, also in the next 10-25 years we will be able to back up human memory. Now if this is true is it such a far assumption to believe that within the next 200 years with advanced alien tech and a limitless amount of finance we will be able to resurrect one from the death. Then again this whole argument is useless considering the fact that this is science fiction and by no means does it need any true realism because it essentially is just an
from normality and realism.

The only method shown in the ME universe to "back up" human memory is greybox technology.  That's been illegal for Alliance personel to have or use for years, so Shepard would not have had it

The simple fact is even though a great many scientific wonders exist in the ME universe, the ability to turn back death is not one of them.  Medical advancements yes.  The ability to advance the boundaries of life and push back the threshhold of death, sure.  But Shepard had been dead for weeks before his body was even found.  Reviving that deserved an explanation, which we did not get.

But then, nothing is impossible when you don't care about what's possible.

[100k]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

100k wrote...

But I just don't see how a human body can endure a fall from orbit. 

Like the other N7 graduates, Shepard was strong and swift and brave. A natural leader.

But Shepard had something they didn't. Something no one saw, but me.

Can you guess?

Luck.

Shame he didn't have the same kind of bones that the MC had. Besides, Spartans can survive fall from thousands of feet without dying because they're super soldiers. Shepard was a simple human before the Lazarus project.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

The Man on the Moon wrote...

They are predicting that in the next 10-25 years we will have the technology to recreate essentially grow human organs, also in the next 10-25 years we will be able to back up human memory. Now if this is true is it such a far assumption to believe that within the next 200 years with advanced alien tech and a limitless amount of finance we will be able to resurrect one from the death. Then again this whole argument is useless considering the fact that this is science fiction and by no means does it need any true realism because it essentially is just an
from normality and realism.

The only method shown in the ME universe to "back up" human memory is greybox technology.  That's been illegal for Alliance personel to have or use for years, so Shepard would not have had it

The simple fact is even though a great many scientific wonders exist in the ME universe, the ability to turn back death is not one of them.  Medical advancements yes.  The ability to advance the boundaries of life and push back the threshhold of death, sure.  But Shepard had been dead for weeks before his body was even found.  Reviving that deserved an explanation, which we did not get.

But then, nothing is impossible when you don't care about what's possible.

Ha, Like the Alliance never did anything illigal .(Creating Cerberus, The AI project in Revilation, the pirate king Hackett sent renegade Shepard to "meet".)

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .