6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Alocormin wrote...

I hope you meant this as a joke.  Did you even look at the rest of the post, anyway?

Did you read the quote i posed a few pages back?

[Notlikeyoucare]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

I repeat this a lot but people usually ignore me. Video Games are not stories. Video Games are not literature. We need to hold them to a different standard.

Plot is almost meaningless to a video game. Its a feature. And not even an important one.

Does killing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 the best thing for a story? Maybe not. But it was a hell of a way to start a video game.

Except that Bioware like to create games with a "story that rivals cinema and novels" , therefore, I have no choice to hold it to that standard.

[Sgt Stryker]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

I repeat this a lot but people usually ignore me. Video Games are not stories. Video Games are not literature. We need to hold them to a different standard.

Plot is almost meaningless to a video game. Its a feature. And not even an important one.

Does killing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 the best thing for a story? Maybe not. But it was a hell of a way to start a video game.

It was also a good way to let the player choose a new class and appearance.

Good luck explaining that with the "knocking Shep into a coma" approach.

But if the goal of the Lazarus project was to bring back Shepard "exactly as he was", isn't that goal violated if the player changes class or physical appearance?

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

But if the goal of the Lazarus project was to bring back Shepard "exactly as he was", isn't that goal violated if the player changes class or physical appearance?

Some player influence should be involved somewhere, so they can might as well put it where Shep's face is getting patched together.

Sometimes, things must be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

[111987]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

I repeat this a lot but people usually ignore me. Video Games are not stories. Video Games are not literature. We need to hold them to a different standard.

Plot is almost meaningless to a video game. Its a feature. And not even an important one.

Does killing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 the best thing for a story? Maybe not. But it was a hell of a way to start a video game.

It was also a good way to let the player choose a new class and appearance.

Good luck explaining that with the "knocking Shep into a coma" approach.

But if the goal of the Lazarus project was to bring back Shepard "exactly as he was", isn't that goal violated if the player changes class or physical appearance?

I believe they were referring to his personality.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

I repeat this a lot but people usually ignore me. Video Games are not stories. Video Games are not literature. We need to hold them to a different standard.

Plot is almost meaningless to a video game. Its a feature. And not even an important one.

Does killing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 the best thing for a story? Maybe not. But it was a hell of a way to start a video game.

It was also a good way to let the player choose a new class and appearance.

Good luck explaining that with the "knocking Shep into a coma" approach.

But if the goal of the Lazarus project was to bring back Shepard "exactly as he was", isn't that goal violated if the player changes class or physical appearance?

A visual retcon and gameplay class, have nothing to do with the plot, and therefore, no impact on the story. Its the same if a character in a film is recast with a different actor.

[Sgt Stryker]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

A visual retcon and gameplay class, have nothing to do with the plot, and therefore, no impact on the story. Its the same if a character in a film is recast with a different actor.

Exactly. Which is why I contend that a variant on 100k's alternate scenario (rather than going on an unscheduled space walk, have Shepard climb into a 2nd, damaged escape pod that accidentally slams into Alchera) is more plausible than what we have in ME2, and that this scenario would still work with the overall story, gameplay mechanics, and pre-release marketing. In fact, Shepard doesn't even have to die - just get a lot of broken bones and damaged organs from the impact, and near-death from lack of oxygen. The Alliance will declare him missing, presumed dead, and after that, TIM can use his contacts within the Alliance to gradually change that status to KIA. The entire galaxy thinks Shepard is dead for two years, while Cerberus knows this is not the case.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Regardless of what maybe better. That fact remines that the plot for this is not finished. Making it not a plothole because it will be explained. Wehether it bad writing or not,we won't know untill ME3.

The problem is not that the plotline is unfinished, but that by the end of ME2 it's hardly started.  This is an event that happened at the very beginning of ME2, is in fact the reason why ME2 can happen at all, and it is virtually ignored the entire game.  Nobody, not even the main character, and subject of the Lazarus Project, cares to learn more.  One can go without questions, or without answers, but going without either is bad writing.  ME3's story should not have to carry two games' worth of story.

2.That was not a mssion to no where. It starts only when your try to land some where. They did it so it can happen anywhere, even when are trying to do a mission. Thus the choice to keep doing mission or save the crew.  It's not a plothole, but it could of been done better.

Personally I try to imagine that it takes place just before the last mission I did (Legion's loyalty mission) But one cannot deny that it was extemely awkwardly inserted into the game.

.
4. The reason for having a team of badasses is lost to you because you don't look at the details. Notice that all but  4 squad mates are Human. That was done onperpose. TIM set the team up so that if any one of their great soldiers is lost, it won't effect the integraty of humanities military force. How would the lose of Garrus effect the Alliance Mititary? Or Tali? It maybe important to you that these people live or die, but not to TIM.

The problem with the team is they go recruiting before they know what the job is exactly.  Look at caper films, like Ocean's 11.  Look at war movies like The Dirty Dozen or The Great Escape.  Spy movies, sports movies, any story that requirees assembling a team for a mission.  They look at what they're going to accomplish, what the obstacles are and recruit based upon that.  They don't pick names out of a hat, jump into the mission and go "Sure hope I brought the right people along!"

6.So, asking why no one knew collectors were protheans and making an opinion in the same brach of comments is not a reaction?

Also, the reaction is also with the player since it's written as roleplaying gamewhivh the player plays a role. This is not really a plothole or bad writing.

I think having it all end with "Well it doesn't matter, they're the enemy now" is at least questionable writing.

[Iakus]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Except that Bioware like to create games with a "story that rivals cinema and novels" , therefore, I have no choice to hold it to that standard.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but there is quite a bit of cinema that' s shallow and vaccuous 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Alocormin wrote...

Lotion:  Yeah. Just be careful you don't wash people together who disagree with you, yourself. It's hard to do. 

Mass:  Well.  He has a sort of charisma.  He brazenly takes many of the assumptions people make and presents them in a decisive way, which is attractive to people who agree with him.  

Key word, assumption.

He and his ilk make a bad habit of grabbing onto something before they really have all the information or a real understanding, and then hammering that conclusion to the bitter end no matter how clear it becomes that they were mistaken.

[Notlikeyoucare]

iakus wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Except that Bioware like to create games with a "story that rivals cinema and novels" , therefore, I have no choice to hold it to that standard.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but there is quite a bit of cinema that' s shallow and vaccuous 

True that, even ME 2 is more well written then some novels.

[Xeranx]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Lotion:  Yeah. Just be careful you don't wash people together who disagree with you, yourself. It's hard to do. 

Mass:  Well.  He has a sort of charisma.  He brazenly takes many of the assumptions people make and presents them in a decisive way, which is attractive to people who agree with him.  

Key word, assumption.

He and his ilk make a bad habit of grabbing onto something before they really have all the information or a real understanding, and then hammering that conclusion to the bitter end no matter how clear it becomes that they were mistaken.

Who exactly is this 'ilk' you speak of that speak 'before they really have all the information or a real understanding'?  Those you disagree with?  People who appear arrogant to you?

You obviouslly seem to allude that you have a better understanding of what's going on than those you apparently disagree with, but the fact that people still have questions, that people like Il Divo acknowledge that Smudboy does make valid points in his analysis...one has to question exactly what information you actually have that Smudboy and his ilk lack.  Keep in mind that in being vague with the term ilk, you're coming extremely close to the bold.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Xeranx wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Lotion:  Yeah. Just be careful you don't wash people together who disagree with you, yourself. It's hard to do. 

Mass:  Well.  He has a sort of charisma.  He brazenly takes many of the assumptions people make and presents them in a decisive way, which is attractive to people who agree with him.  

Key word, assumption.

He and his ilk make a bad habit of grabbing onto something before they really have all the information or a real understanding, and then hammering that conclusion to the bitter end no matter how clear it becomes that they were mistaken.

Who exactly is this 'ilk' you speak of that speak 'before they really have all the information or a real understanding'?  Those you disagree with?  People who appear arrogant to you?

You obviouslly seem to allude that you have a better understanding of what's going on than those you apparently disagree with, but the fact that people still have questions, that people like Il Divo acknowledge that Smudboy does make valid points in his analysis...one has to question exactly what information you actually have that Smudboy and his ilk lack.  Keep in mind that in being vague with the term ilk, you're coming extremely close to the bold.

Me

[Killjoy Cutter]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

How is the Reaper IFF transmitting the Normandy's position a plothole?

Nobody knew it could do that until it was too late.

Because its the IFF of a 37 million year old Reaper. From what I can remember, TIM says something about it being dead x million years. So how does the equipment of a Reaper thats been dead longer than the Protheans being indoctrinated, transmit its location to the Collector Cruiser? They can understand Reaper tech? Ok. Then how does it transmit a signal being hooked up to non-Reaper tech? Why does it even transmit a signal to the Collectors? Isn't it just supposed to provide a safe exit corridor into the Galactic Core? Did the Collectors put a tracking signal in it? If they found it and the Reaper first and rigged it, why didn't they just get rid of it AND the Reaper to hide evidence as they apparently like to do? Why not at least destroy the IFF so NO-ONE can get a chance of going through safely?

Well, an IFF could be based on transmitting a signal continuously when activated, as opposed to responding to an inquiry signal the way real-life IFF systems do.   If so, the Normandy is transmitting a signal, the Collectors can track it.   The IFF could be boobytrapped with the virus so that any non-Reaper-or-servents ship it is connected to will possibly be disabled, and any Collector ship or Reaper nearby comes to investigate. 

The thing about the IFF transmitter so quickly "bringing" the Collectors to the Normany is that it's transmitting a signal at light-speed... even if the Collectors are in the same system, it could take hours for the signal to even reach them.  

Although one could speculate that the IFF uses an FTL signal, since we're told they exist in ME.

[Fixers0]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


True that, even ME 2 is not as bad as some novels.

Fixed;)

Modifié par Fixers0, 03 septembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

Fixers0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


True that, even ME 2 is not as bad then some novels.

Fixed;)

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

[Fixers0]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

Oh, no problem, 

But seriously think the quality of the writing in Mass Effect 2 is absymal, the litterly had to screw the believablity narative, like they were deliberately to insult our intelligence and break the suspension of disbelief, guess what, the succeeded.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


True that, even ME 2 is not as bad then some novels.

Fixed;)

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

Not as bad then? wtf...that isn't fixed.

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...




The writing is bad, yes.  Didn't I just state that my opinion =/= Smudboy's?

Shepards Ressurection is a plothole and a one-dimensional plot device. Bourne Endeavour explained this better than I ever could earlier in the thread
The unexplained mission to nowhere is a plothole.
The IFF *somehow* transmitting the Normandy's location is a plothole.
The VS confrontation was ****** poor characterisation. Terrible dialouge with all of Ash, Kaiden, and Shepard
The sucicide mission was one of the most contrived moments I've seen in fiction. We succeed for no other reason than the plot demands it. There is no justification for preparing a team of badasses to take down what we can only deduce as an entire civilisation. Due to the fact that there was no knowledge of a "Collector Base" . What exactly were we preparing for again?
The Reaper info dump was contrived. WTF is the "esscense" of a species? There is no reaction from SHepard on this, like the Collectors being Protheans, he makes no attempt to inquire how or why.  Esspecially since Vigil mentioned that the indoctrinated protheans were left to rot. There is no attempt made to explain what the Collectors plan was with that thing.

Every. single. plot point has a characteristic of bad writing and poor execution.

You can like the story as much as you want, I can't argue you shouldn't It is however, bad writing.

1.Regardless of what maybe better. That fact remines that the plot for this is not finished. Making it not a plothole because it will be explained. Wehether it bad writing or not,we won't know untill ME3.
2.That was not a mssion to no where. It starts only when your try to land some where. They did it so it can happen anywhere, even when are trying to do a mission. Thus the choice to keep doing mission or save the crew.  It's not a plothole, but it could of been done better.
3.Remeber, this is a piece of tech from a body of something that still funtions after death.
4. The reason for having a team of badasses is lost to you because you don't look at the details. Notice that all but  4 squad mates are Human. That was done onperpose. TIM set the team up so that if any one of their great soldiers is lost, it won't effect the integraty of humanities military force. How would the lose of Garrus effect the Alliance Mititary? Or Tali? It maybe important to you that these people live or die, but not to TIM.
5.That was just EDI's analysis of what she saw and gain from the system when she hacked it.
6.So, asking why no one knew collectors were protheans and making an opinion in the same brach of comments is not a reaction?
Also, the reaction is also with the player since it's written as roleplaying gamewhivh the player plays a role. This is not really a plothole or bad writing.
7.Also, Vigil has limited info and perspective of what the reapers did in general being that he's stuck on a planet. How he know everything the reapers did? All he would know is that they left the rest behind.

.........So want to try agein?

I'd like to think I've been very patient, here. Now I am considering if I even need to respond.

The unexplained mission to nowhere is to nowhere because even if I finish every single mission before getting the IFF it still happens. Unexplained and to nowhere.

You don't even understand the point I'm making about the Suicide Mission.

EDI says the "Essence of a species", what is that? Essence is an obscure term, so what does EDI mean? Shepard never gets the opportunity to ask because .............. a wizard did it?

The rest of that is pure nonsense

1. As I said before...Designed to happen anywhere. I can do the derlict reaper mission after the collector ship mission and 2 mission later the collectes take my crew, with the majority of the missions left. The point is they design it to happen as soon as you hit the galexy map....which is when you deside where to go. You going some where only you come back before doing it because of the attack. What I'm saying it, it's design to trigger at any mission after in the second disk.AKA anywhere. It's not a plothole.

2.Theird only one essence of a species and if you did biology at any time you would know it.......DNA. It the one thing ever species has that tells what they are.

1. Its still unexplained, there is no "mission" its literally nothing. A plothole, Why do all 13 have to come? Can we even fit 13 people into that thing?

2. DNA hmmm? THEN WHY DIDN'T EDI JUST SAY THAT!? WHAT WAS THE POINT OF MAKING THE DIALOUGE VAGUE!??? Again, "Essence" is vauge. In what context is EDI speaking? How do you get DNA from Essence? Yes, our DNA tells us what species we are it defines what we're composed of, but it does not tell us what it fundementally means to be our species,or what our true nature is.

1.They never specific what mission they are on because it could be any mission in the 2nd cd.

2.essence....
1. The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2. The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4.
a. An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b. Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c. A perfume or scent.
5. One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6. Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity.

DNA...
A nucleic acid that carries the genetic information in the cell and is capable of self-replication and synthesis of RNA.

Gene..
A hereditary unit consisting of a sequence of DNA that occupies a specific location on a chromosome and determines a particular characteristic in an organism. Genes undergo mutation when their DNA sequence changes
.......It speaks for itself.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Fixers0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

Oh, no problem, 

But seriously think the quality of the writing in Mass Effect 2 is absymal, the litterly had to screw the believablity narative, like they were deliberately to insult our intelligence and break the suspension of disbelief, guess what, the succeeded.

My biggest problem more than anything is that it could have been so much more. They had the time, money, and resources, to tell it properly and we get this. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if things were more coherent, consise, and clear.. Establish the Collector base early on, have Shepard's death be involve with the story somehow, have sufficient build up to the Reaper info dump, anything. Write something worth experiencing.

[Biotic Sage]

Can we get a lock here? This thread is unproductive.

[Fixers0]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

Oh, no problem, 

But seriously think the quality of the writing in Mass Effect 2 is absymal, the litterly had to screw the believablity narative, like they were deliberately to insult our intelligence and break the suspension of disbelief, guess what, the succeeded.

My biggest problem more than anything is that it could have been so much more. They had the time, money, and resources, to tell it properly and we get this. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if things were more coherent, consise, and clear.. Establish the Collector base early on, have Shepard's death be involve with the story somehow, have sufficient build up to the Reaper info dump, anything. Write something worth experiencing.

You're right, nothing was stopping the writers from making a compelling story, that's intersting to follow and has some depth to it, but they didn't.

For some reason...

[Notlikeyoucare]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...


True that, even ME 2 is not as bad then some novels.

Fixed;)

Thanks. My wording gets sloppy during early hours of the morning

Not as bad then? wtf...that isn't fixed.

^^I told ya so. Lol. I better be going before my sentence structure gets any worse

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Regardless of what maybe better. That fact remines that the plot for this is not finished. Making it not a plothole because it will be explained. Wehether it bad writing or not,we won't know untill ME3.

The problem is not that the plotline is unfinished, but that by the end of ME2 it's hardly started.  This is an event that happened at the very beginning of ME2, is in fact the reason why ME2 can happen at all, and it is virtually ignored the entire game.  Nobody, not even the main character, and subject of the Lazarus Project, cares to learn more.  One can go without questions, or without answers, but going without either is bad writing.  ME3's story should not have to carry two games' worth of story.

2.That was not a mssion to no where. It starts only when your try to land some where. They did it so it can happen anywhere, even when are trying to do a mission. Thus the choice to keep doing mission or save the crew.  It's not a plothole, but it could of been done better.

Personally I try to imagine that it takes place just before the last mission I did (Legion's loyalty mission) But one cannot deny that it was extemely awkwardly inserted into the game.

.
4. The reason for having a team of badasses is lost to you because you don't look at the details. Notice that all but  4 squad mates are Human. That was done onperpose. TIM set the team up so that if any one of their great soldiers is lost, it won't effect the integraty of humanities military force. How would the lose of Garrus effect the Alliance Mititary? Or Tali? It maybe important to you that these people live or die, but not to TIM.

The problem with the team is they go recruiting before they know what the job is exactly.  Look at caper films, like Ocean's 11.  Look at war movies like The Dirty Dozen or The Great Escape.  Spy movies, sports movies, any story that requirees assembling a team for a mission.  They look at what they're going to accomplish, what the obstacles are and recruit based upon that.  They don't pick names out of a hat, jump into the mission and go "Sure hope I brought the right people along!"

6.So, asking why no one knew collectors were protheans and making an opinion in the same brach of comments is not a reaction?

Also, the reaction is also with the player since it's written as roleplaying gamewhivh the player plays a role. This is not really a plothole or bad writing.

I think having it all end with "Well it doesn't matter, they're the enemy now" is at least questionable writing.

1.That's because they want to focus on the war in hand. Cerberus doesn't bring it up because they want to control Shepard. Shepard doesn't talk about it because he/she doesn't understand it. And the non-cerberusCrew doesn't mention it because they also know nothing of the details.
2.I never said it was not bad.. Just not a plothole. It clearly could of been done better. It's one of 3 bad spots in the plot.
3. They started recuiting after they knew who they were facing. They learn the collector were  behind it from freedoms's progress and then started recuiting and the list was not finished at the start ether.
 
4. That's the only way to take it in a war or any life and death event. If your being hunted by a tiger and you have to kill it or it eats you, does it matter if you understand it's only hunting you becauseit's hungry? No, you kill it to live anyway. It's sad that the prothean were turned to collectors that way but you still have kill them anyway or die. You even talk to Mordin about this as well. Going on to fight them so you can live is theonly logical reaction the knowlege of the collector origins.

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 septembre 2011 - 07:48 .