So, I feel this is the right place to ask this.
But if the Tevinter Magisters were the first of the darkspawn, being the first and only ones to enter the Black City, then why are there genlocks and hurlocks? Shouldn't the darkspawn only be magic? As in only Emissarys and ones like the Architect?
Imay have missed something very obvious, if so please say. But honestly, thinking about it has brought me to this point, because slaves being nonmagical could not enter the Fade as the Magisters did.
The First of the Darkspawn
Débuté par
BloodDragonBone
, août 28 2011 03:22
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#2
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 août 2011 - 03:47
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Well, the Magisters could have easily just corrupted females of other races and turned them into Broodmothers, and that would have surely birthed all of the different types of darkspawn - or that would seem to be the most logical explanation, anyway.
Also, there is supposed to be some inherent connection between the darkspawn and the Fade - if the Chant of Light is to be believed, anyway. We do know that the Black City (where the first Magisters were supposedly made into darkspawn) is real - and it's located in the Fade, so the Chant may not be completely fictitious on that point.
Anyway, we don't know everything there is to know about the darkspawn, yet. Bioware has a lot of it under wraps, still - we'll have to wait till DA3, I suppose.
Also, there is supposed to be some inherent connection between the darkspawn and the Fade - if the Chant of Light is to be believed, anyway. We do know that the Black City (where the first Magisters were supposedly made into darkspawn) is real - and it's located in the Fade, so the Chant may not be completely fictitious on that point.
Anyway, we don't know everything there is to know about the darkspawn, yet. Bioware has a lot of it under wraps, still - we'll have to wait till DA3, I suppose.
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 août 2011 - 03:54 .
#3
Posté 28 août 2011 - 03:56
BloodDragonBone
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I really hope they do return to the Darkspawn, and even the Wardens in Dragon Age 3.
#4
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 août 2011 - 04:09
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The Black City definitely seems to be where the taint originated from. In the Dalish Elf origin, Tamlen sees the Black City through the Eluvian (which apparently functions as some kind of gateway or window into the Black City) - and both he and the Dalish Warden become corrupted. Also, I think the new DA2 DLC, Legacy, provides even more information regarding the first of the darkspawn and the Black City (I have yet to play it, though).
Tamlen also mentions it being "underground" - could it be in or beneath the Deep Roads? Or is there some means to accessing it from down there? It would certainly explain why the darkspawn took down the dwarven kingdoms first - they would have come first from "underground", after all.
Also, the Codex entry states that the Black City can always be seen in the Fade - and if you look, you will see large masses of land floating in the sky there. It also says that no matter what, no one can ever get close to the Black City - it's always lost in the distance.
Also, in the Circle Tower - the third and fourth floors are covered in some type of nasty gore. It's worth noting that the same type of "gore" can be found in the Dead Trenches, which is a nesting ground for the darkspawn. Morrigan commented on the gore in the tower, saying it was similar to "darkspawn corruption" and wondered if the two were related.
Somehow, demons, darkspawn, and the Black City are all connected. I've spent a lot of time thinking on this - I hope Bioware will tell us more in subsequent games. I'd like to see just what direction all of this goes in.
Tamlen also mentions it being "underground" - could it be in or beneath the Deep Roads? Or is there some means to accessing it from down there? It would certainly explain why the darkspawn took down the dwarven kingdoms first - they would have come first from "underground", after all.
Also, the Codex entry states that the Black City can always be seen in the Fade - and if you look, you will see large masses of land floating in the sky there. It also says that no matter what, no one can ever get close to the Black City - it's always lost in the distance.
Also, in the Circle Tower - the third and fourth floors are covered in some type of nasty gore. It's worth noting that the same type of "gore" can be found in the Dead Trenches, which is a nesting ground for the darkspawn. Morrigan commented on the gore in the tower, saying it was similar to "darkspawn corruption" and wondered if the two were related.
Somehow, demons, darkspawn, and the Black City are all connected. I've spent a lot of time thinking on this - I hope Bioware will tell us more in subsequent games. I'd like to see just what direction all of this goes in.
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 août 2011 - 04:10 .
#5
Posté 28 août 2011 - 04:20
BloodDragonBone
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Thanks for that, its helped a lot. I never thought about the connection between the demon corruption and the taint in the Deep Roads. Something to ponder.
I would love to see the Black City, I looked at it during the Circle quest, well, all of the floating masses, the one that seemed the most plausible, being the largest, looked narrow, like one giant line to a castle(I'm thinking thats the right mass) looks so interesting. Kind of like a ship too if you ask me, be so nice to actually got there.
I would love to see the Black City, I looked at it during the Circle quest, well, all of the floating masses, the one that seemed the most plausible, being the largest, looked narrow, like one giant line to a castle(I'm thinking thats the right mass) looks so interesting. Kind of like a ship too if you ask me, be so nice to actually got there.
#6
Posté 28 août 2011 - 07:18
CalJones
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Maybe that's where Morrigan's mirror leads (and Merril's).
#7
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 août 2011 - 07:28
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CalJones wrote...
Maybe that's where Morrigan's mirror leads (and Merril's).
Yes, I wondered that myself - if that's the case, I don't think things will end well for any of them.
I also noticed that in the tunnel behind the Eluvian in the DE origin, there is an entrance to the Deep Roads - though it's blocked off by a large root.
There are lots of interesting little tidbits scattered throughout the game - all pointing in the same general direction.
#8
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 29 août 2011 - 11:38
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This is a good thread. I don't come to the forums regularly anymore, but I'll put this one in my threads and see how it develops.
#9
Posté 29 août 2011 - 12:33
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I don't think Tamlen sees the Black City. I think he's seeing the Deep Roads.
We're told the DE eluvian is corrupted by the darkspawn. It's been taken off its original network and incorporated into Archdemon.com. Packets of Tamlen are now routed to the Dead Trenches.
The eluvian at Drake's Fall is still a part of the original network. That's how Morrigan can touch it and not be blasted by taint like the DE Warden, or pulled through like Tamlen.
---- DA2 Spoiler -------
Merrill's fragment is allegedly "cleansed" of taint (and since Merrill isn't a ghoul, that's probably true). If one believes Marethari (I do), the demon helping her would have 'helped' her to set *that* gate to open into its prison, so it could escape.
-------------
The eluvians seem to be capable of being reprogrammed to open portals to a variety of planes and places.
We're told the DE eluvian is corrupted by the darkspawn. It's been taken off its original network and incorporated into Archdemon.com. Packets of Tamlen are now routed to the Dead Trenches.
The eluvian at Drake's Fall is still a part of the original network. That's how Morrigan can touch it and not be blasted by taint like the DE Warden, or pulled through like Tamlen.
---- DA2 Spoiler -------
Merrill's fragment is allegedly "cleansed" of taint (and since Merrill isn't a ghoul, that's probably true). If one believes Marethari (I do), the demon helping her would have 'helped' her to set *that* gate to open into its prison, so it could escape.
-------------
The eluvians seem to be capable of being reprogrammed to open portals to a variety of planes and places.
#10
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 29 août 2011 - 02:05
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I haven't played DA2 yet, so I didn't know that. I apologize.
Modifié par greengoron89, 29 août 2011 - 02:05 .
#11
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Posté 29 août 2011 - 07:02
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No... no, Tamlen saw the Black City. It had to be. Here is what he says as he looks into the mirror:
"It's... showing me places. I can see... some kind of city... underground? And... there's a great blackness. It... it saw me (what saw him?)! Help! I can't look away!"
If that's truly the case, then it would've been corrupted from within - not without. The Eluvian could've been programmed to go to the "Golden City" at one time, before it was corrupted (if the Chant of Light is to be believed) into the Black City.
That said, I'm beginning to think that Arlathan and the Golden/Black City are one in the same. Everything I've seen in-game, read in the Codex and online, and contemplated on all leads to that conclusion. The Tevinters invaded and destroyed Arlathan, causing it to "sink underground" - which is where the Black City is supposed to be located.
I read that Tevinter Magisters were first taught blood magic by the Old Gods - and it's also possible that elves used blood magic in order to attain their so-called "immortality" (Zathrian used blood magic to prolong his life, as did Avernus), which I assume also came from the Old Gods.
If what Corypheus says in Legacy is true, the Old Gods promised to give them the Golden City/Arlathan, but says they were "betrayed." I don't know exactly how they were betrayed, but it somehow resulted in all of the Magisters turning into darkspawn and Arlathan being corrupted and sunken beneath the earth (thus becoming the "Black City").
I also just read that the Old God Dumat may yet live, despite supposedly being slain during the First Blight. But the only way Dumat could have survived is if Dumat's soul went into another darkspawn or some other nearby "vessel" - which means either a Grey Warden didn't actually slay Dumat...
...or Morrigan and Flemeth's so-called "old magic" ritual may have very well been involved in Dumat's continued existence.
I also strongly suspect that Flemeth herself is an Old God. There's a lot of indicators in-game that this is true. So, could Flemeth be...?
I don't know. I could be completely wrong about all of this (and probably am), and don't have much evidence to back any of it up. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
"It's... showing me places. I can see... some kind of city... underground? And... there's a great blackness. It... it saw me (what saw him?)! Help! I can't look away!"
If that's truly the case, then it would've been corrupted from within - not without. The Eluvian could've been programmed to go to the "Golden City" at one time, before it was corrupted (if the Chant of Light is to be believed) into the Black City.
That said, I'm beginning to think that Arlathan and the Golden/Black City are one in the same. Everything I've seen in-game, read in the Codex and online, and contemplated on all leads to that conclusion. The Tevinters invaded and destroyed Arlathan, causing it to "sink underground" - which is where the Black City is supposed to be located.
I read that Tevinter Magisters were first taught blood magic by the Old Gods - and it's also possible that elves used blood magic in order to attain their so-called "immortality" (Zathrian used blood magic to prolong his life, as did Avernus), which I assume also came from the Old Gods.
If what Corypheus says in Legacy is true, the Old Gods promised to give them the Golden City/Arlathan, but says they were "betrayed." I don't know exactly how they were betrayed, but it somehow resulted in all of the Magisters turning into darkspawn and Arlathan being corrupted and sunken beneath the earth (thus becoming the "Black City").
I also just read that the Old God Dumat may yet live, despite supposedly being slain during the First Blight. But the only way Dumat could have survived is if Dumat's soul went into another darkspawn or some other nearby "vessel" - which means either a Grey Warden didn't actually slay Dumat...
...or Morrigan and Flemeth's so-called "old magic" ritual may have very well been involved in Dumat's continued existence.
I also strongly suspect that Flemeth herself is an Old God. There's a lot of indicators in-game that this is true. So, could Flemeth be...?
I don't know. I could be completely wrong about all of this (and probably am), and don't have much evidence to back any of it up. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Modifié par greengoron89, 29 août 2011 - 07:12 .
#12
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 29 août 2011 - 10:58
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greengoron89 wrote...
I don't know. I could be completely wrong about all of this (and probably am), and don't have much evidence to back any of it up. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I can't help it . . .
Even if you are correct right now about where Dragon Age is going plotwise, there is a good chance you won't be by the end. Gaider keeps making new crap up as he goes along and denouncing lore he established.
But most TV/authors/game writers do. Very few stories end the way the creators intended if they span more than one "chapter".
Martin's Song of Ice and Fire has gone completely off the rail from what he intended. Originally he planned on 5 books. Well they just released book 5 and it's a nebulous mess with no end in sight.
George Lucas . . . Leia was Luke's sister? Ewoks instead of Wookies? Midiclorians are the source of the Force? He just started making shyt up as the Star Wars Saga got longer.
Lost - you ever watch that show? Those writers started with a premise . . . but after the show kept getting renewed the plot just became a series of plot holes and nonsense.
Anyway . . . the cynic in me sees myself getting to Dragon Age 4 and throwing the disc against a wall 20 hours in because the story I loved has been diluted into nonsense. That's what happens a lot.
So don't be too hard on yourself if nothing goes the way you think it will . . . you may not have been far off at one point.
Modifié par Hanz54321, 29 août 2011 - 11:00 .
#13
Posté 30 août 2011 - 03:46
BBK4114
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Corypheus says there was no Golden City, they (the magisters) were tricked and insists it was already black when they got there. Someone's (in the forums) theory is that it is Fen'harel (sp?) The trickster getting back at Tevinter. Seems as good a theory as any to me. 
#14
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 30 août 2011 - 04:14
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BBK4114 wrote...
Corypheus says there was no Golden City, they (the magisters) were tricked and insists it was already black when they got there. Someone's (in the forums) theory is that it is Fen'harel (sp?) The trickster getting back at Tevinter. Seems as good a theory as any to me.
Ah, interesting. I hadn't considered that possibility - I'm not too familiar with the elven gods (though I strongly suspect that the "Forgotten Ones" are actually the Old Gods).
Either, way, I'm still convinced Arlathan = Black City. There are a lot of hints pointing in the direction of this being the case.
What exactly happened there to corrupt it so, I don't know.
Also, perhaps Flemeth is Fen'Harel - that seems just as likely as her being an Old God. I only know that Flemeth is far more than a simple "abomination" as Morrigan said.
Speaking of which, I just read the Codex entry on Fen'Harel. Here's something interesting:
"In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our
gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the
People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one
of their own. And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him
as a brother, and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to
the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted
him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if
only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They
trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And Fen'Harel
sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."
Flemeth seems to favor shapeshifting into dragons - and the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones are dragons. It would be easy, then, for her to walk among them as a "one of their own." The Old Gods also ended up "sealed away", did they not?
How interesting, still, that Flemeth seems to have a knack for trickery, and also appearing to possibly be an Old God to the player. All things Fen'Harel would excel at, no?
...bah, I'm going to theorize and contemplate until my head explodes, it seems.
Modifié par greengoron89, 30 août 2011 - 04:22 .
#15
Posté 30 août 2011 - 04:35
BloodDragonBone
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So..I created this, and yet, I can not even try to comprehend a lot of what is being said, let alone reply back. But, I am learning a lot, and I am very glad I asked.
#16
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Posté 30 août 2011 - 04:43
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I can barely comprehend it, myself. I still don't know everything there is to know about the lore behind these games, or just how deep the rabbit hole goes (and it seems to go pretty damn far).
I'll still be reading up on stuff and contemplating for a long time to come. I need to go ahead and finish my canon playthrough (which I sadly made a mistake on - but it's too late to fix it now) so I can move on to DA2.
I'll still be reading up on stuff and contemplating for a long time to come. I need to go ahead and finish my canon playthrough (which I sadly made a mistake on - but it's too late to fix it now) so I can move on to DA2.
Modifié par greengoron89, 30 août 2011 - 04:43 .
#17
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 30 août 2011 - 05:01
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greengoron89 wrote...
I can barely comprehend it, myself. I still don't know everything there is to know about the lore behind these games, or just how deep the rabbit hole goes (and it seems to go pretty damn far).
I'll still be reading up on stuff and contemplating for a long time to come. I need to go ahead and finish my canon playthrough (which I sadly made a mistake on - but it's too late to fix it now) so I can move on to DA2.
Oh . . . you missed the days when there was no DA2. These discussion boards were full of people who knew everything about Thedas. They had read the Voice Over notes, knew all the material that ended up on the cutting room floor. And the Loghain discussions . . . that character's motivations and actions were dissected down to the microscopic level.
It was fun and made the game that much richer. But most of those folks have come and gone. We kind of discussed the game to death and know each other's PoV by wrote.
#19
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Posté 30 août 2011 - 05:07
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Ha... to tell you the truth, I only just got around to playing this game a few months ago. So a lot of it is still new to me. It's almost overwhelming - I know Bioware develops rich, intricate lore for just about all of their games, but this one takes the cake.
A truly amazing game - one of the best.
A truly amazing game - one of the best.
#20
Posté 30 août 2011 - 03:32
Last Darkness
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BloodDragonBone wrote...
So, I feel this is the right place to ask this.
But if the Tevinter Magisters were the first of the darkspawn, being the first and only ones to enter the Black City, then why are there genlocks and hurlocks? Shouldn't the darkspawn only be magic? As in only Emissarys and ones like the Architect?
Imay have missed something very obvious, if so please say. But honestly, thinking about it has brought me to this point, because slaves being nonmagical could not enter the Fade as the Magisters did.
You seem to have missed the part about them returning from the black city corrupted, and that the taint is highly infectious and spreads to everything around them.
When a normal person or animal is infected it goes mad and becomes a ghoul. But if its female (As in intelligent female races like Humans, Dwarves and Elves etc) instead of becoming a Ghoul they turn into a Broodmother and then start giving mass births to darkspawn like some horrific insect queen.
Not to spoil anything but you can get a first hand accounting from the Legacy DLC for DA2 since you get to question a origenal magister darkspawn. It really reveals alot.
#21
Posté 30 août 2011 - 10:52
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See, I thought it had to be in doses of taint, or something. That is what (insert Dwarves Name here) said, I was thinking about it, but I was still kind of curious. And I wish to get legacy so bad!
#22
Posté 31 août 2011 - 02:05
Last Darkness
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BloodDragonBone wrote...
See, I thought it had to be in doses of taint, or something. That is what (insert Dwarves Name here) said, I was thinking about it, but I was still kind of curious. And I wish to get legacy so bad!
Well you either die or become a Ghoul quickly if your tainted by the Darkspawn.
The only cure is to become a Grey Warden and even that has a moderate risk of death.
Its actualy stated that Darkspawn cover their weapons in their own blood so as to spread the taint quicker. (This includes arrows)
Some more powerful Darkspawn can even accelerate the taint in someone to overcome them in moments.
Avernus from Wardens keep has even discovered ways for a Warden to use his tainted blood as a weapon.
Though appearently the Song of the Old Gods is beautiful at least...I hear lol
#23
Posté 10 septembre 2011 - 05:08
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Last Darkness wrote...
You seem to have missed the part about them returning from the black city corrupted, and that the taint is highly infectious and spreads to everything around them.
When a normal person or animal is infected it goes mad and becomes a ghoul. But if its female (As in intelligent female races like Humans, Dwarves and Elves etc) instead of becoming a Ghoul they turn into a Broodmother and then start giving mass births to darkspawn like some horrific insect queen.
Not to spoil anything but you can get a first hand accounting from the Legacy DLC for DA2 since you get to question a origenal magister darkspawn. It really reveals alot.
That Tevinter Magister also claimed that the Black City was already corrupted when they got there, and it was by entering that Black City that was the reason why they were corrupted in the first place.
But yeah, the taint is massively infectious so even just by existing the magisters would have corrupted those around them and created ghouls. Especially if you consider how many slaves they must have had at hand and concentrated it's not hard to imagine them returning and corrupting masses of them and thus kickstarting the First Blight. It went on for a while so it may well have been that they even tried to go about their affairs as before, or returned and been driven by the Calling to round up their personal forces to go on expeditions for the Old Gods and their human serfs were corrupted en route.
#24
Posté 10 septembre 2011 - 06:10
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Until Bioware gives us an answer, I say we go with what the dwarves believe. "Who cares where they came from? How do we kill them easier?"
#25
Posté 10 septembre 2011 - 07:08
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GSSAGE7 wrote...
Until Bioware gives us an answer, I say we go with what the dwarves believe. "Who cares where they came from? How do we kill them easier?"
I hope the Maker turns out to be the God of the Darkspawn and the remaining Old Ones have to team up Megazord style to defeat him.
