81 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

@Gervaise, I kind of figured that you meant you human warden/s, but I only had one and for her it just didn't matter, but at least she didn't grew bitter at the Maker like my Hawke did.

As for Sebastian, I think he kinda got a sign in the ending of da2 and he doesn't really have a choice, but to take Starkhaven back, does he? I just wonder if he has the backup he needs - perhaps if Hawke is vicount and still is friends with him, I just can't see what pro-mage Hawke can do for him or who his allies will be if Hawke fall out with him in the end.

And I agrees with Dragonflight that the Chantry really shouldn't have a military force.

[Gervaise]

Strangely enough Esper what you say allows the ending for my mage Hawke make sense with her now apparently alone, inspite of the spiritual marriage. Clearly Sebastian was omitted simply because he is DLC but from a story point of view obviously if he is retaking Starkhaven, she would be something of a liability, at least until he has consolidated power. Of course it doesn't explain the absence from a Hawke Vicount ending, except that we don't know why Hawke has gone missing and Sebastian must have been in Starkhaven when she did.

[Sepewrath]

esper wrote...
As for Sebastian, I think he kinda got a sign in the ending of da2 and he doesn't really have a choice, but to take Starkhaven back, does he? I just wonder if he has the backup he needs - perhaps if Hawke is vicount and still is friends with him, I just can't see what pro-mage Hawke can do for him or who his allies will be if Hawke fall out with him in the end.

Well he must have had some kind of plan, since he viewed it as an option long before becoming Hawke's friend or anything. Maybe the people in Starkhaven will rally behind him or something. He also has the Harimanns support who are suppose to be his main opposition, so I guess its doable.

[esper]

Sepewrath wrote...

esper wrote...
As for Sebastian, I think he kinda got a sign in the ending of da2 and he doesn't really have a choice, but to take Starkhaven back, does he? I just wonder if he has the backup he needs - perhaps if Hawke is vicount and still is friends with him, I just can't see what pro-mage Hawke can do for him or who his allies will be if Hawke fall out with him in the end.

Well he must have had some kind of plan, since he viewed it as an option long before becoming Hawke's friend or anything. Maybe the people in Starkhaven will rally behind him or something. He also has the Harimanns support who are suppose to be his main opposition, so I guess its doable.

You meant the support he three years later still hasn't gathered? (Between act 1 and act 2). I think it all boils down to who are the puppet master behind his... less smart cousin on the throne, and how many resources said puppet master has. 

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

Strangely enough Esper what you say allows the ending for my mage Hawke make sense with her now apparently alone, inspite of the spiritual marriage. Clearly Sebastian was omitted simply because he is DLC but from a story point of view obviously if he is retaking Starkhaven, she would be something of a liability, at least until he has consolidated power. Of course it doesn't explain the absence from a Hawke Vicount ending, except that we don't know why Hawke has gone missing and Sebastian must have been in Starkhaven when she did.

Perhaps Sebastian and the Vicount Hawke split up because the Vicount Hawke is properly seen as pro-templar by the rest of the world and the templars splits from the chantry? You could work with that untill we get that Starkhaven dlc.

[Gervaise]

Reasonable theory except that he seemed a lot more at ease with a pro-Templar decision rather than a pro-mage - "I can't help looking at these apostates (Circle Mages still in Circle so not apostates unless not wanting to die makes you an apostate) and thinking of Anders." Polite suggestion, how about looking at these apostates and thinking of me? Apostate mage for the last 7 years and recently avowed chantry sister. Sometimes the dialogue does not take into account every eventuality but there you go.

[esper]

Yeah, Sebastian sufffers from the same sickness as the templars in Kirkwall- He can't see an apostate Hawke even s/he is a litterary raining fire on his head.

[dragonflight288]

Sebastian: Hawke should be viscount. Maybe you could talk o him?
Aveline: Maybe that's something you should discuss with Hawke.
Sebastian: (something I can't quite remember)
Avelinge: Well it's his decision. Take it up with him.

Sebastian was actively trying to get Hawke on the throne in Kirkwall before the explosion. Even if, as a brother, he knows that a Mage cannot hold a title.

[jamesp81]

I was thinking about this some more, and I realized that there simply is no way to make a morally difficult choice on mage vs templar.

The templars institutionally practice indentured servitude and false imprisonment of people who have committed no crime.

There is literally NOTHING a group of blood mages can do that would make me see the templars' institutionalized injustice as anything other than a monumental injustice that should be resisted with maximum force.

The only possible thing mages could do is go so completely bad that I decide to fight them and the templars at the same time.

[esper]

@Dragonflight... The sickness the templars had.

Cullen: You are no longer a friend to the templars
My blood mage Hawke  (When was I ever a friend to the templars? In our very first discussion I argued that the templars were to blame for the unrest.)

Sebastian banter:
Sebastian: We should do something about the malificarum in our team (I can't remember the exact words, but he did use malificarum)
Blood mage Hawke:  Should I kill you now or later since you threaten to turn me in?

[esper]

jamesp81 wrote...

I was thinking about this some more, and I realized that there simply is no way to make a morally difficult choice on mage vs templar.

The templars institutionally practice indentured servitude and false imprisonment of people who have committed no crime.

There is literally NOTHING a group of blood mages can do that would make me see the templars' institutionalized injustice as anything other than a monumental injustice that should be resisted with maximum force.

The only possible thing mages could do is go so completely bad that I decide to fight them and the templars at the same time.

We had the discussion before, but some people did turn against the mages because of the blood magic. For me it is clear cut black and white with the templars being the black. That is because I firmly believe in innocenct untill proven guilty and that you can't sacrifice the rights of a minority to gain a sense of security for the majority.

There are, however, people with a different moral scale. Bioware is not making a morally difficult choice (black/black or grey/grey choice). They have created a choice where people have a different sense of what is black and what is white.

[jamesp81]

esper wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I was thinking about this some more, and I realized that there simply is no way to make a morally difficult choice on mage vs templar.

The templars institutionally practice indentured servitude and false imprisonment of people who have committed no crime.

There is literally NOTHING a group of blood mages can do that would make me see the templars' institutionalized injustice as anything other than a monumental injustice that should be resisted with maximum force.

The only possible thing mages could do is go so completely bad that I decide to fight them and the templars at the same time.

We had the discussion before, but some people did turn against the mages because of the blood magic. For me it is clear cut black and white with the templars being the black. That is because I firmly believe in innocenct untill proven guilty and that you can't sacrifice the rights of a minority to gain a sense of security for the majority.

There are, however, people with a different moral scale. Bioware is not making a morally difficult choice (black/black or grey/grey choice). They have created a choice where people have a different sense of what is black and what is white.

I agree with that, and I think what you will find is that people from a certain moral tradition will strongly favor one over the other as compared to other moral traditions.

Modifié par jamesp81, 06 septembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Satyricon331]

jamesp81 wrote...
I was thinking about this some more, and I realized that there simply is no way to make a morally difficult choice on mage vs templar.*snip*

You know, I wonder about that.  I suspect if Bioware had characterized mage-hood as something acquired (not through the mage's fault, but picked up in some unknown way in childhood) and used the language of quarantine rather than segregation or "locking up" to characterize the Chantry's response to the vulnerability mages have to possession, people would be more evenly split.  Framing effects can be very strong.  

[dragonflight288]

I honestly think that instead of creating a culture with a different set of values than the ones the gamers have, they should give gamers a reasonable excuse to pause what they're doing and honestly consider what's the best course of action.

The problem with ultimately choosing to support Meredith and Orsino is that at the time of the choice, we have seen absolutely no evidence that the Circle itself is beyond redemption and full of blood mages or abominations. Just a large number of apostates. And Meredith is punishing a group who are innocent of the crime committed by the individual right in front of her...who is also confessing to the crime.

We would need to see more of the Circle and how it runs before making such a choice.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I honestly think that instead of creating a culture with a different set of values than the ones the gamers have, they should give gamers a reasonable excuse to pause what they're doing and honestly consider what's the best course of action.

The problem with ultimately choosing to support Meredith and Orsino is that at the time of the choice, we have seen absolutely no evidence that the Circle itself is beyond redemption and full of blood mages or abominations. Just a large number of apostates. And Meredith is punishing a group who are innocent of the crime committed by the individual right in front of her...who is also confessing to the crime.

We would need to see more of the Circle and how it runs before making such a choice.

Or maybe we should be shown some reasonable, kind, and well-meaning mages get caught up in minor, not-rape conflicts that result in mage-inflicted, disastrous fatalities.

Modifié par phaonica, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[esper]

phaonica wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I honestly think that instead of creating a culture with a different set of values than the ones the gamers have, they should give gamers a reasonable excuse to pause what they're doing and honestly consider what's the best course of action.

The problem with ultimately choosing to support Meredith and Orsino is that at the time of the choice, we have seen absolutely no evidence that the Circle itself is beyond redemption and full of blood mages or abominations. Just a large number of apostates. And Meredith is punishing a group who are innocent of the crime committed by the individual right in front of her...who is also confessing to the crime.

We would need to see more of the Circle and how it runs before making such a choice.

Or maybe we should be shown some reasonable, kind, and well-meaning mages get caught up in minor, not-rape conflicts that result in mage-inflicted, disastrous fatalities.

That would still not change my mind on the mage templar issue, because you can't blame all mages for the actions of a few, and you can't punish people in advance for something they might do. which is what the circle system boils down to.

[dragonflight288]

But what if we had in-game evidence that a circle mage was using blood magic to control Elthina? But we had no evidence to suggest who and Orsino still isn't allowing the templars to search the Gallows?

Hypothetical situation.

[esper]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But what if we had in-game evidence that a circle mage was using blood magic to control Elthina? But we had no evidence to suggest who and Orsino still isn't allowing the templars to search the Gallows?

Hypothetical situation.

I would think that Meridith would properly kill Elthina for being weak... and I would really doubt it was a circle mage since said mage would have to dogde Meridith, her templars and Orsino.
Hypothetical I would still not say an annulement is the way to go because you would still be murdering everyone. I would, however, force my way into the circle to investigate or claim that Orsino is an accomplice since he is shielding the criminal in that secnario.  

[dragonflight288]

I would think that Meridith would properly kill Elthina for being weak... and I would really doubt it was a circle mage since said mage would have to dogde Meridith, her templars and Orsino.
Hypothetical I would still not say an annulement is the way to go because you would still be murdering everyone. I would, however, force my way into the circle to investigate or claim that Orsino is an accomplice since he is shielding the criminal in that secnario.

Assuming Meredith kills Elthina for being weak, then she has just also killed the only thing legally stopping her from calling a Right of Annullment of her own volition.

Is it moral or ethical? Heck no. Is it legal. Yup.

Which is why I think we do need to see more of the Circle and how it's run before we make such a choice. Up to that point, I see no reason not to side with the mages.

[esper]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would think that Meridith would properly kill Elthina for being weak... and I would really doubt it was a circle mage since said mage would have to dogde Meridith, her templars and Orsino.
Hypothetical I would still not say an annulement is the way to go because you would still be murdering everyone. I would, however, force my way into the circle to investigate or claim that Orsino is an accomplice since he is shielding the criminal in that secnario.

Assuming Meredith kills Elthina for being weak, then she has just also killed the only thing legally stopping her from calling a Right of Annullment of her own volition.

Is it moral or ethical? Heck no. Is it legal. Yup.

Which is why I think we do need to see more of the Circle and how it's run before we make such a choice. Up to that point, I see no reason not to side with the mages.

I wonder if Meridith had killed Elthina would all her templars have followed her? Her Knight Captain had doubts...

[EmperorSahlertz]

If there was proof that Circle Mage had used blood magic to manipulate the Grand Cleric, you can bet your arse that all the Templars would have followed Meredith in annulling the Circle, since then it would actually be justified.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there was proof that Circle Mage had used blood magic to manipulate the Grand Cleric, you can bet your arse that all the Templars would have followed Meredith in annulling the Circle, since then it would actually be justified.

Given how bad a job Elthina was doing, I can't really agree with your justification.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there was proof that Circle Mage had used blood magic to manipulate the Grand Cleric, you can bet your arse that all the Templars would have followed Meredith in annulling the Circle, since then it would actually be justified.

We are talking if Meridith killed Elthina. There are doubt in Meridith's ranks all ready some of the doubters might not have believed her, espically since the evidence must be kind of weak when it is not pointing towards a specific mage and blood magic victims doesn't exactly wear a neon sign saying: I am being controlled by blood magic.
No doubt the most extreme believer would have come with Meridith no matter what, and nothing can justify an annulment.

[dragonflight288]

Again...evidence.

And my hypothetical situation was to show that if such evidence existed and Orsino STILL wasn't allowing a search of the tower...what then?

Granted, I'm not disagreeing with you Esper, but if that hypothetical situation did take place and you were the Knight-Commander, what would you do?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there was proof that Circle Mage had used blood magic to manipulate the Grand Cleric, you can bet your arse that all the Templars would have followed Meredith in annulling the Circle, since then it would actually be justified.

Given how bad a job Elthina was doing, I can't really agree with your justification.

That the Circle mages have been using illegal magic, and that the First Enchanter himself still prevents an investigation? More than enough reason to cut out the cancer, that is the Gallows.