81 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Again...evidence.

And my hypothetical situation was to show that if such evidence existed and Orsino STILL wasn't allowing a search of the tower...what then?

Granted, I'm not disagreeing with you Esper, but if that hypothetical situation did take place and you were the Knight-Commander, what would you do?

If I were Knight-Commander, am I allowed to be more reasonable than Meridith?

I would temporaliy chain the mages and the force a search of their rooms, again I have strong evidence, right? The the mages I find evidence against to be blood mages I would properly execute, given that I in you theory am a templar and thus against blood magic. If it is a too large number, I would properly hold the first enchanter responsible and either ask another cirlce to house him or execute him as well provided how strong the evidence against him is.

[dragonflight288]

If I were Knight-Commander, am I allowed to be more reasonable than Meridith?

Yes, you would be allowed to be more reasonable. I happen to be pro-mage, but I'm also a strong believer in using evidence and facts to build up my opinions and decisions.

I would temporaliy chain the mages and the force a search of their rooms, again I have strong evidence, right? The the mages I find evidence against to be blood mages I would properly execute, given that I in you theory am a templar and thus against blood magic. If it is a too large number, I would properly hold the first enchanter responsible and either ask another cirlce to house him or execute him as well provided how strong the evidence against him is.

You would indeed have evidence that someone within the circle is the blood mage responsible. You just don't know who, and no one is cooperating.

You, with your morals and your own ideas and stance, are the Knight-Commander. You don't have to be against blood-magic so much as against its use to control people's minds like Elthina's as part of the job description of protecting people.

That is my entire thing is on. What would we do if we were in charge? Meredith's greatest flaw was she saw threats where there weren't any. She accused people willy-nilly of being blood mages or being controlled by blood magic because their opinions didn't support hers, so her paranoia drove her insane...with a little help from some lyrium.

And yeah...I happen to agree with what you would do.

[phaonica]

esper wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Or maybe we should be shown some reasonable, kind, and well-meaning mages get caught up in minor, not-rape conflicts that result in mage-inflicted, disastrous fatalities.

That would still not change my mind on the mage templar issue, because you can't blame all mages for the actions of a few, and you can't punish people in advance for something they might do. which is what the circle system boils down to.

It might not change my mind either, but to me it would be more compelling than the selection of imo insane or unreasonable mages that we currently come across.

In my experience people get "punished" all the time for the actions of a few, for crimes they haven't committed. I've known of parks to close because people would frequently trash the place. I've experienced school events end permanently because it was too much work to address the frequent crashers. In my experience it is not uncommon for innocent people to lose a privilege because someone else screwed up. That does't necessarily make it right, it doesn't make it fair, but that's life.

Now, admittedly my personal experiences are tame examples compared to the consequence of execution (thank goodness), but within the context of the game, death and killing seem to be much more of a standard consequence.

Modifié par phaonica, 09 septembre 2011 - 12:17 .

[jamesp81]

Satyricon331 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I was thinking about this some more, and I realized that there simply is no way to make a morally difficult choice on mage vs templar.*snip*

You know, I wonder about that.  I suspect if Bioware had characterized mage-hood as something acquired (not through the mage's fault, but picked up in some unknown way in childhood) and used the language of quarantine rather than segregation or "locking up" to characterize the Chantry's response to the vulnerability mages have to possession, people would be more evenly split.  Framing effects can be very strong.  

I doubt that would alter my view of the situation.  What could alter my view is if mages did learn magic by choice, and were not born with it or "contracted" it during childhood as you describe.

Let's say becoming a mage was a choice and that choice, most times, involved dealing with a demon, I might have a different view.  As it stands, however, there is really nothing that the mages, collectively, could do to make me think they don't deserve a chance to live life like a normal person.  Similarly, there is nothing the templars can say or do that will make me think that locking up mages as they've done for centuries is acceptable.  Worst case scenario, if mages all turned really uber bad, I could be convinced to fight both.

[jamesp81]

phaonica wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I honestly think that instead of creating a culture with a different set of values than the ones the gamers have, they should give gamers a reasonable excuse to pause what they're doing and honestly consider what's the best course of action.

The problem with ultimately choosing to support Meredith and Orsino is that at the time of the choice, we have seen absolutely no evidence that the Circle itself is beyond redemption and full of blood mages or abominations. Just a large number of apostates. And Meredith is punishing a group who are innocent of the crime committed by the individual right in front of her...who is also confessing to the crime.

We would need to see more of the Circle and how it runs before making such a choice.

Or maybe we should be shown some reasonable, kind, and well-meaning mages get caught up in minor, not-rape conflicts that result in mage-inflicted, disastrous fatalities.

The problem with that is that no matter what a mage does, they're still locked up without just cause.  Period.  That, BY ITSELF, is justification for deadly force against their captors.  In other words, as far as many (myself included) are concerned, the templars by default may be legitimately attacked with deadly force to stop their unjust imprisonment of people who have committed no crime.  The templars are already so far in the wrong that any additional crimes, no matter how minor, just aren't relevant.

[Satyricon331]

jamesp81 wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
You know, I wonder about that.  I suspect if Bioware had characterized mage-hood as something acquired (not through the mage's fault, but picked up in some unknown way in childhood) and used the language of quarantine rather than segregation or "locking up" to characterize the Chantry's response to the vulnerability mages have to possession, people would be more evenly split.  Framing effects can be very strong.  

I doubt that would alter my view of the situation.  What could alter my view is if mages did learn magic by choice, and were not born with it or "contracted" it during childhood as you describe.

Let's say becoming a mage was a choice and that choice, most times, involved dealing with a demon, I might have a different view.  As it stands, however, there is really nothing that the mages, collectively, could do to make me think they don't deserve a chance to live life like a normal person.  Similarly, there is nothing the templars can say or do that will make me think that locking up mages as they've done for centuries is acceptable.  Worst case scenario, if mages all turned really uber bad, I could be convinced to fight both.

I obviously can't speak to your individual perspective, but the reason I wonder about it is because in many, if not (more likely) most, people's arguments on the matter, I see nothing that would particularize their justifications to exclude condemning quarantine situations where the ill person had no culpability in the illness and did not voluntarily enter quarantine.  Rather, they offer justifications that could apply with equal force to the mage situation and to involuntary quarantine situations.

I'm sure if you confronted individuals with the incongruity, they would offering all sorts of ad hoc rationales to provide a difference (although some might just say they oppose involuntary quarantine), but that response simply illustrates their susceptibility to framing effects.  

(This being the internet, I should also point out that I have seen some people who seem to have rationales that would not run into this issue.)

[phaonica]

jamesp81 wrote...

The problem with that is that no matter what a mage does, they're still locked up without just cause.  Period.  That, BY ITSELF, is justification for deadly force against their captors.  In other words, as far as many (myself included) are concerned, the templars by default may be legitimately attacked with deadly force to stop their unjust imprisonment of people who have committed no crime.  The templars are already so far in the wrong that any additional crimes, no matter how minor, just aren't relevant.

Oh, I agree with you. I've been trying to come up with *something*, *anything* that might potentially convince me that either Meredith's RoA or mage internment is okay, and haven't come up with anything yet.

And I think it's a shame (mostly due to the way the conflict was written) that while it is not okay to claim that any given selection of mages is representative of the whole, that it is generally acceptable to group all templars together and say that they do all deserve to die. Not all templars became so by choice, and many could be trapped due to lyrium addiction.

"Becoming a templar was a decision made for me a long time ago...I was packed to the nearest monastery at age ten.... Usually that's not something you're allowed to stop. The Chantry spends a lot of time training you to fight mages. They don't like to give you up..... The grand cleric wouldn't have let me go if Duncan never forced the issue" -- Alistair.