759 réponses à ce sujet

[sedrikhcain]

Made Nightwing wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Last I checked, Athiests don't kill for their beliefs. So you can scratch the 'militant' term, flyingwalrus.

Saddam Hussien, the Chinese government, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. A lack of belief in a deity has never stopped man from being man. Even from an atheistic view, there being no god, religion is inherently the work of man and mankind itself is responsible for it. Ergo, religion is is poor scapegoat as it is the human condition that results in suffering, not an invisible man in the sky. It's like saying capitalism is the cause of wars. Capitalism is just an institution that reflects man's nature.

Religion is one of the most effective mediums for dogma, submision to authority, and belief without proof. Call it the human condition if you want. 

Most religions also encourage justice, the right of every individual to life and liberty, the pursuit of personal peace and enlightenment. The Inquisition also set the standard for modern day legal trials, by requiring the burden of proof to be on the prosecution, not on the defendant. (Also a good thing for poor old ladies accused of witchcraft. Instead of being 'Tried by Water', they could declare a minor heresy, be tried by the Inquisition, fined and then released.)

Religion has inspired beautiful works of art. It has inspired works of amazing (and insane) acts of courage and defiance in the face of oppression, and sets a moral and ethical standard for people to live by. Religion isn't a bad thing at all.

Religion is practiced by humans, therefore it is only as good or bad as the people practicing it. The inquisition may have had the effect of forming the foundation for modern trials, but it also had the effect of burning people at the stake for not following the church's teachings.

That's the Spanish Inquisition you're thinking of. That was set up by the monarchs of Spain as part of a money and land grabbing exercise. The Medieval Inquisition was much different:

"The inquisitors generally preferred not to hand over heretics to the secular arm for execution if they could persuade the heretic to repent: Ecclesia non novit sanguinem. For example, Bernard Gui, a famous inquisitor working in the area of Carcassonne (in modern France), executed 42 people out of over 900 guilty verdicts in fifteen years of office. Execution was to admit defeat, that the Church was unable to save a soul from heresy, which was the goal of the inquisition."

Are you really arguing that the Med. Inq. was much better because for those inquisitors, execution was a "last resort"? Really?

[FlyingWalrus]

Made Nightwing wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Davie McG wrote...

Not entirely, Catholics can believe in science. 

Not without some serious mental dissonance.

Commonly held false truth = that being religious excludes you from scientific research. No mental dissonance required, just a hunger for knowledge about the world God put us in.

More black and whites from the enlightened crowd, eh?

[Made Nightwing]

Cephalopods wrote...

@ Shotgun Amen sista

Religion serves no good. It has been the cause of more war, death, and intolerance than any other factor. This is a fact that cannot be denied, numbers do not lie.

Then again, its common courtesy for the religious to ignore evidence and facts in favor of thoughtless, baseless faith.

Psalm 23: The lord is my Shepard. Oh, the irony. For a Shepard does not protect his flock out of kindness nor love. Sheep are watched so they may be prepared for the slaughter, kept ignorant of their true fate. The lord is thy Shepard, and thou art his sacrifice.

On the contrary, sheep are generally not kept for their meat, but for their wool.

During WWII, the Catholic Church actively concealed and aided in the escape of thousands of Jews. St. Maximillian Kolbe (a formerly anti-Semitic priest) volunteered to take the place of a Jewish man scheduled for execution in a concentration camp.

The Church actually preaches tolerance toward all peoples, faiths, and sexual orientations. We aren't required to approve, but it's a pretty big sin to actively hate someone.

[111987]

Cephalopods wrote...

@ Shotgun Amen sista

Religion serves no good. It has been the cause of more war, death, and intolerance than any other factor. This is a fact that cannot be denied, numbers do not lie.

Then again, its common courtesy for the religious to ignore evidence and facts in favor of thoughtless, baseless faith.

Psalm 23: The lord is my Shepard. Oh, the irony. For a Shepard does not protect his flock out of kindness nor love. Sheep are watched so they may be prepared for the slaughter, kept ignorant of their true fate. The lord is thy Shepard, and thou art his sacrifice.

That's too broad of a generalization to make. 'Religion serves no good.' Most religious people in the world do not go out and fight wars and murder people. Can religion cause these problems? Yes. But religion also teaches people morals...I don't see that as an issue.

Money can and has caused war and death, many times. Germany's horrid economic situation at the end of World War 1 was one of the main reasons why World War 2, the bloodiest conflict in human history. That doesn't mean money serves no good.

(P.S. I'm not saying money and the economy was the only reason for WW2, but it was a significant factor)

[Quole]

Gorosaur wrote...

Quole wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

Why are you even talking to us? Register some games and maybe you will get taken seriously.

So now we're elitist too huh? Pretty cool. I just haven't bothered to register games. Don't really see the benefit outside of the LOOKY WHAT I PLAYED aspect of this site. 

usually trolls dont register games. I usually associate them with trolls.

[Made Nightwing]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Last I checked, Athiests don't kill for their beliefs. So you can scratch the 'militant' term, flyingwalrus.

Saddam Hussien, the Chinese government, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. A lack of belief in a deity has never stopped man from being man. Even from an atheistic view, there being no god, religion is inherently the work of man and mankind itself is responsible for it. Ergo, religion is is poor scapegoat as it is the human condition that results in suffering, not an invisible man in the sky. It's like saying capitalism is the cause of wars. Capitalism is just an institution that reflects man's nature.

Religion is one of the most effective mediums for dogma, submision to authority, and belief without proof. Call it the human condition if you want. 

Most religions also encourage justice, the right of every individual to life and liberty, the pursuit of personal peace and enlightenment. The Inquisition also set the standard for modern day legal trials, by requiring the burden of proof to be on the prosecution, not on the defendant. (Also a good thing for poor old ladies accused of witchcraft. Instead of being 'Tried by Water', they could declare a minor heresy, be tried by the Inquisition, fined and then released.)

Religion has inspired beautiful works of art. It has inspired works of amazing (and insane) acts of courage and defiance in the face of oppression, and sets a moral and ethical standard for people to live by. Religion isn't a bad thing at all.

Religion is practiced by humans, therefore it is only as good or bad as the people practicing it. The inquisition may have had the effect of forming the foundation for modern trials, but it also had the effect of burning people at the stake for not following the church's teachings.

That's the Spanish Inquisition you're thinking of. That was set up by the monarchs of Spain as part of a money and land grabbing exercise. The Medieval Inquisition was much different:

"The inquisitors generally preferred not to hand over heretics to the secular arm for execution if they could persuade the heretic to repent: Ecclesia non novit sanguinem. For example, Bernard Gui, a famous inquisitor working in the area of Carcassonne (in modern France), executed 42 people out of over 900 guilty verdicts in fifteen years of office. Execution was to admit defeat, that the Church was unable to save a soul from heresy, which was the goal of the inquisition."

Are you really arguing that the Med. Inq. was much better because for those inquisitors, execution was a "last resort"? Really?

Executions took place for a lot of reasons back then. The Reformation was causing a heck of a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. Civil war was going to erupt at any second all across Europe. It's a double standard to judge their actions by our modern day values.

[Volus Warlord]

Cephalopods wrote...

@ Shotgun Amen sista

Religion serves no good. It has been the cause of more war, death, and intolerance than any other factor. This is a fact that cannot be denied, numbers do not lie.

Then again, its common courtesy for the religious to ignore evidence and facts in favor of thoughtless, baseless faith.

Psalm 23: The lord is my Shepard. Oh, the irony. For a Shepard does not protect his flock out of kindness nor love. Sheep are watched so they may be prepared for the slaughter, kept ignorant of their true fate. The lord is thy Shepard, and thou art his sacrifice.

I like you. You're funny. Very funny.

These "religious debates" generally degrade into a contest to see who's head is the furthest up their own ass, and here we have a prime example.  People readily slap labels onto things to satisfy their deep seated desire for hatred, and refuse to accept any evidence that does not agree with their predispositions. It's funny in a way.

[Davie McG]

slimgrin wrote...

Davie McG wrote...

Not entirely, Catholics can believe in science. 

Not without some serious mental dissonance.

As one such Catholic I can't really agree. Especially considering the current version of the Catechism specifically states the big bang theory is a valid and plausible explanation of the beginning of the universe. That evolution is also a valid and likely explanation of how life on earth got to this stage.

I'm not however here to discuss my beliefs. Why did everyone just reply to the one sentence of my post that was off topic?

[Gorosaur]

Quole wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

Quole wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

Why are you even talking to us? Register some games and maybe you will get taken seriously.

So now we're elitist too huh? Pretty cool. I just haven't bothered to register games. Don't really see the benefit outside of the LOOKY WHAT I PLAYED aspect of this site. 

usually trolls dont register games. I usually associate them with trolls.

I wasn't trying to troll. I've been on this site for months. I've held some decent conversations with people etc. I dont even see how my previous post was trolling other than the fact that it actually supported a religious player. 

[mjb203]

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

Never understood this myself either Gorosaur.  Personally, I thought those few lines that Ash talked about God added a lot to her character.  It made her feel a bit more like a real character, to me at least. 

Anyway, I'm off to bed now.  Let's do our best to keep things civil folks!  I've enjoyed reading and partaking in the discussion tonight.

[sedrikhcain]

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

I don't think her mentions of scripture have anything to do with people branding her a racist.


EDITED TO FIX TYPO.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 30 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[Gorosaur]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

I don't think her mentions of scripture have anything to do with people branding her a racist.


EDITED TO FIX TYPO.

True. Maybe I just got carried away with my support of Ashley as a character. 

[Davie McG]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

I don't think her mentions of scripture have anything to do with people branding her a racist.


EDITED TO FIX TYPO.

She wasn't written to be racist, it just unfortunately came across that way. A bit like Randy Marsh on wheel of fortune.

[Sundance31us]

Made Nightwing wrote...
...Spanish Inquisition...

[sedrikhcain]

Made Nightwing wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Last I checked, Athiests don't kill for their beliefs. So you can scratch the 'militant' term, flyingwalrus.

Saddam Hussien, the Chinese government, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. A lack of belief in a deity has never stopped man from being man. Even from an atheistic view, there being no god, religion is inherently the work of man and mankind itself is responsible for it. Ergo, religion is is poor scapegoat as it is the human condition that results in suffering, not an invisible man in the sky. It's like saying capitalism is the cause of wars. Capitalism is just an institution that reflects man's nature.

Religion is one of the most effective mediums for dogma, submision to authority, and belief without proof. Call it the human condition if you want. 

Most religions also encourage justice, the right of every individual to life and liberty, the pursuit of personal peace and enlightenment. The Inquisition also set the standard for modern day legal trials, by requiring the burden of proof to be on the prosecution, not on the defendant. (Also a good thing for poor old ladies accused of witchcraft. Instead of being 'Tried by Water', they could declare a minor heresy, be tried by the Inquisition, fined and then released.)

Religion has inspired beautiful works of art. It has inspired works of amazing (and insane) acts of courage and defiance in the face of oppression, and sets a moral and ethical standard for people to live by. Religion isn't a bad thing at all.

Religion is practiced by humans, therefore it is only as good or bad as the people practicing it. The inquisition may have had the effect of forming the foundation for modern trials, but it also had the effect of burning people at the stake for not following the church's teachings.

That's the Spanish Inquisition you're thinking of. That was set up by the monarchs of Spain as part of a money and land grabbing exercise. The Medieval Inquisition was much different:

"The inquisitors generally preferred not to hand over heretics to the secular arm for execution if they could persuade the heretic to repent: Ecclesia non novit sanguinem. For example, Bernard Gui, a famous inquisitor working in the area of Carcassonne (in modern France), executed 42 people out of over 900 guilty verdicts in fifteen years of office. Execution was to admit defeat, that the Church was unable to save a soul from heresy, which was the goal of the inquisition."

Are you really arguing that the Med. Inq. was much better because for those inquisitors, execution was a "last resort"? Really?

Executions took place for a lot of reasons back then. The Reformation was causing a heck of a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. Civil war was going to erupt at any second all across Europe. It's a double standard to judge their actions by our modern day values.

Going on a relentless campaign to get everyon to fall in line with your power structure then executing them if they ultimately refuse to do so is, in human terms, an atrocity. I don't care when it was done, who did it or why.

The fact that people will attempt to defend things like this when churches do them is one of the reasons that some people find the entire concept of organized religion distasteful.

[Gorosaur]

On that note, I find it funny that characters like Thane, Tali, and Mordin are never insulted for expressing their religious beliefs.

[sedrikhcain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

General Question: Since when was the expression of a characters beliefs considered offensive?


Also, why is Ashley called a Bible thumper? She speaks like three lines about God in the entire game and she's labeled as a racist and a religious bigot.

I don't think her mentions of scripture have anything to do with people branding her a racist.


EDITED TO FIX TYPO.

Well, it does have to do with people labeling her a religion bigot, and the kind of people who go around caling people "religious bigots" tend to be willing to throw anything else they can at the person.

At any rate, the mentions of scripture most assuredly do have something to do with her general dislike by fans, if not the racist part.

General dislike? Absolutely. I agree -- not that I dislike her.

The notion that people were so turned off by her scripture references that they were eager to brand her anything distasteful is an interesting one. I don't know, though, I think after her "dog" analogy, the R word would've been flung at her, regardless.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 30 août 2011 - 03:44 .

[Sundance31us]

Gorosaur wrote...
On that note, I find it funny that characters like Thane, Tali, and Mordin are never insulted for expressing their religious beliefs.

Stick around long enough and you'll see it.

[ObserverStatus]

Ringo12 wrote...

Quole wrote...

I think we should be able to kill kids in every game. Even kid`s games.

Ofcourse. Ever played Fallout 1 or 2?

Warcraft 3 too, for that matter. That's a more recent one.  If I remember correctly, you can also murder baby penquins in super mario 64.

[Volus Warlord]

Gorosaur wrote...

On that note, I find it funny that characters like Thane, Tali, and Mordin are never insulted for expressing their religious beliefs.

Um.. I think the fact that they're aliens has something to do with it.

[OmegaXI]

Well with the universe going down in a blaze of glory I'm sure that some characters will be praying

[Izhalezan]

Gorosaur wrote...

On that note, I find it funny that characters like Thane, Tali, and Mordin are never insulted for expressing their religious beliefs.

Thane would no scope you in the face if you did, Tali is too nerd bait for people to want to hurt her and Mordin was merely giving religion a try, he says he never found one that was just right.

[Cephalopods]

How do you people survive, lying to yourselves like this? I would have gone mad by now from the hypocrisy I lived. In no way does any organized theistic religion promote anything but fear and loathing towards those who are different than you. Yes, the Bible and the Koran and the Talmud speak of peace and understanding, but it is practiced by those truly in charge of the faiths? Is tolerance of homosexuals embraced by the Pope and the cardinals? No. Do the Ayatollahs and the Imams love their fellow Jews? No. Of all the Abrahamic religions, the Jewish are by far the most tolerant and peaceful, but many still resort to fear and prejudice, in no relation to the endless suffering of Jews throughout history. I feel its also important to note the hypocrisy of the fundamental right-wingers to disavow science, and yet make exorbitant use of automobiles, television, and the internet to spread their archaic and barbaric traditions.

One can only hope that by the real 2185, humanity will have evolved enough to throw away the shackles of such illogical brutality. Equal rights for all sentient lifeforms, based on logical scientific proof, is the only acceptable outcome to ensure the continued progress and survival of the species.

On a side note, all the flack is only centered on theastic religion because generally it is theists who create the destruction and violation of life. Atheist religions such as Bhuddism rarely cause the level of violence seen in theist (especially Abrahamic) religions because there is no God to appease. In Mass Effect, the Quarians worship their ancestors, not Gods, so they cause no harm. The Salarians beleive in a cycle of life - again, no Gods. Turians who convert to human beleifs more often than not choose atheist religions. It is only the Drell and the Hanar who worship Gods, and as has been noted it often offends the other races of the galaxy, just like human theists today.

Modifié par Cephalopods, 30 août 2011 - 03:50 .