93 réponses à ce sujet

[Darius Vir]

So, we know that the Grey Wardens were founded at Weisshaupt in the midst of the First Blight.   We also know (again, assuming there isn't a massive mistake or conspiracy concerning the general timeline) that the Blight lasted several generations past this point, until Dumat was seemingly killed for good.

But, I'm wondering if we know what the founding date of the Wardens actually entailed?  It's mentioned that they swore an oath to defeat the Blight, renounce their old allegiances, etc.  Ok, oaths and creeds are nice and inspiring, but the Joining is really what makes the Grey Wardens what they are. Do we know if the Joining ritual stems from this date as well?

Or, did the Grey Wardens organize themselves, and then somehow-and I REALLY want to know how they came up with/discovered this- developed the Joining at a later date?  It seems like there's interesting implications either way.   I'm of the mind that the Joining wasn't "discovered" until a bit late in the game, mainly because it would explain why it took so gorram long after the Wardens' founding to finally kill Dumat. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 28 août 2011 - 11:18 .

[Monica21]

Darius Vir wrote...
So, we know that the Grey Wardens were founded at Weisshaupt in the midst of the First Blight.   We also know (again, assuming there isn't a massive mistake or conspiracy concerning the general timeline) that the Blight lasted several generations past this point, until Dumat was seemingly killed for good.

But, I'm wondering if we know what the founding date of the Wardens actually entailed?  It's mentioned that they swore an oath to defeat the Blight, renounce their old allegiances, etc.  Ok, oaths and creeds are nice and inspiring, but the Joining is really what makes the Grey Wardens what they are. Do we know if the Joining ritual stems from this date as well?

Or, did the Grey Wardens organize themselves, and then somehow-and I REALLY want to know how they came up with/discovered this- developed the Joining at a later date?  It seems like there's interesting implications either way.   I'm of the mind that the Joining wasn't "discovered" until a bit late in the game, mainly because it would explain why it took so long after the Wardens' founding to finally kill Dumat. 

There was some interesting discussion about it on the Origins forum awhile ago, basically asking how the Wardens figured out that Archdemon blood or darkspawn blood could help them. From what I remember, the consensus generally formed around the popularity of dragon cults at the time, since the Archdemon appears in the form of a dragon.

I think that these first Grey Wardens only accidentally realized the effects of drinking the Archdemon's blood. They may have tried to drink it to gain some of its power, but instead realized they were part of the hive mind of the rest of the darkspawn, which I suppose is power in and of itself, but likely different from what they were seeking. 

What we do know, is that the Blight lasted 90 years before the Wardens were established, and it was only after they were established that they began winning battles against the darkspawn.

[Macropodmum]

One would have to wonder though how they got to drink the archdemons blood before they killed it?

[TEWR]

This is something that's been bugging me myself. It's not something you just stumble upon easily or know about before it's ever been done before.

[Monica21]

Macropodmum wrote...

One would have to wonder though how they got to drink the archdemons blood before they killed it?

Because the Archdemon has to be killed by a Warden to truly die. It's possible there was a battle where the dragon form of it was injured, leaving blood lying around, or it's possible that it was killed and the soul went into the nearest darkspawn. Nothing says that the dragon form of Dumat was what was killed in the Battle of Silent Plains. It simply says that Dumat was killed.

Modifié par Monica21, 28 août 2011 - 11:34 .

[Darius Vir]

Monica21 wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

One would have to wonder though how they got to drink the archdemons blood before they killed it?

Because the Archdemon has to be killed by a Warden to truly die. It's possible there was a battle where the dragon form of it was injured, leaving blood lying around, or it's possible that it was killed and the soul went into the nearest darkspawn. Nothing says that the dragon form of Dumat was what was killed in the Battle of Silent Plains. It simply says that Dumat was killed.

Not sure how much relevance it has, but I thought it was likely that if/when an Archdemon was killed by a non-Grey warden and thus did the whole "transfer to darkspawn" thing, that said Darkspawn reformed itself into the image and likeness of the Dragon.  Based on the language Riordan used when he mentioned it, anyway.

I've actually heard people postulate that one of the proto-Grey Wardens got sprayed in the mouth by Archdemon blood in an early battle and thus discovered the power of the Joining. Make of this what you will. Other ideas similar to this, too...accident based.

I don't know.  I don't have much if anything to back this up, but I get the impression that the Grey Wardens either came up with this or found out about it very concisely/deliberately.  It sort of seems to fit in with the pattern of "The Grey Wardens know about this extremely arcane bit of knowledge HOW, exactly?!" Like, knowing PRECISELY where the Old Gods are buried.  Precisely. 

They seem to consistently have some very specific sources of information. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 28 août 2011 - 11:56 .

[GSSAGE7]

Darius Vir wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

One would have to wonder though how they got to drink the archdemons blood before they killed it?

Because the Archdemon has to be killed by a Warden to truly die. It's possible there was a battle where the dragon form of it was injured, leaving blood lying around, or it's possible that it was killed and the soul went into the nearest darkspawn. Nothing says that the dragon form of Dumat was what was killed in the Battle of Silent Plains. It simply says that Dumat was killed.

Not sure how much relevance it has, but I thought it was likely that if/when an Archdemon was killed by a non-Grey warden and thus did the whole "transfer to darkspawn" thing, that said Darkspawn reformed itself into the image and likeness of the Dragon.  Based on the language Riordan used when he mentioned it, anyway.

I've actually heard people postulate that one of the proto-Grey Wardens got sprayed in the mouth by Archdemon blood in an early battle and thus discovered the power of the Joining. Make of this what you will. Other ideas similar to this, too...accident based.

I don't know.  I don't have much if anything to back this up, but I get the impression that the Grey Wardens either came up with this or found out about it very concisely/deliberately.  It sort of seems to fit in with the pattern of "The Grey Wardens know about this extremely arcane bit of knowledge HOW, exactly?!" Like, knowing EXACTLY where the Old Gods are buried.  Exactly. 

They seem to consistently have some very specific sources of information. 

It's very unlikely that the it happened accidentally like that, because the Joining juice (I'll punish myself for the pun later), requires not only archdemon blood, but darkspawn blood, lyrium, and it apparently has to be treated with magic.

[Monica21]

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

[Monica21]

GSSAGE7 wrote...
It's very unlikely that the it happened accidentally like that, because the Joining juice (I'll punish myself for the pun later), requires not only archdemon blood, but darkspawn blood, lyrium, and it apparently has to be treated with magic.

My understanding is that it can be done with just archdemon blood, but if it's regular darkspawn blood, that's when it needs the magical lyrium treatment.

Modifié par Monica21, 29 août 2011 - 12:01 .

[Darius Vir]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

It's very unlikely that the it happened accidentally like that, because the Joining juice (I'll punish myself for the pun later), requires not only archdemon blood, but darkspawn blood, lyrium, and it apparently has to be treated with magic.

Right.  That would be my main/first argument, honestly.

I didn't even bring it up though because I have seen some debates about this-or-that ritual not ACTUALLY being needed.  I was a little disappointed when, apparently, DG himself said you don't actually need Archdemon blood to do the Joining?  Someone please correct me if applicable on this, because I'd like to be wrong about that.

But yeah, I agree.  Why would you even bother with the ritual as is if you don't need it (practically speaking) as is?

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As I understand the historical records don't go detial about how the Grey Wardens came to be exactly. Since the Joining is designed to tie the Wardens into the taint, somewhere in the codex simply says that the practice was discovered by some Tevinter Imperium Knight or something.

[Darius Vir]

Monica21 wrote...

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

Indeed.  The First Warden knows, and I believe the Warden-Commanders are privy to this information as well.  But, I guess what I mean is, that if the individuals who take on these roles are always made aware of this secret through the generations, then the Grey Wardens as a whole "know". 

[TEWR]

Darius Vir wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

It's very unlikely that the it happened accidentally like that, because the Joining juice (I'll punish myself for the pun later), requires not only archdemon blood, but darkspawn blood, lyrium, and it apparently has to be treated with magic.

Right.  That would be my main/first argument, honestly.

I didn't even bring it up though because I have seen some debates about this-or-that ritual not ACTUALLY being needed.  I was a little disappointed when, apparently, DG himself said you don't actually need Archdemon blood to do the Joining?  Someone please correct me if applicable on this, because I'd like to be wrong about that.

But yeah, I agree.  Why would you even bother with the ritual as is if you don't need it (practically speaking) as is?

It's true. You just need at least a sufficient amount of Darkspawn blood to get a heavy dose of the Taint

[Monica21]

Darius Vir wrote...
Right.  That would be my main/first argument, honestly.

I didn't even bring it up though because I have seen some debates about this-or-that ritual not ACTUALLY being needed.  I was a little disappointed when, apparently, DG himself said you don't actually need Archdemon blood to do the Joining?  Someone please correct me if applicable on this, because I'd like to be wrong about that.

But yeah, I agree.  Why would you even bother with the ritual as is if you don't need it (practically speaking) as is?

I'm pretty sure DG said it, but I have no idea how to go about finding that quote. It was quite awhile ago. But it would explain why you're hunting for darkspawn blood in the Wilds and then the mages have to prepare it before you can go through the Joining. It also explains how Loghain is able to go through the Joining with just Riordan there, because he didn't destroy the supply of archdemon blood in Denerim.

[T3H Fish]

The Joining itself could have been a complete accident at first, a Grey Warden or two absorbing the Arch Demon's blood during the battle and discovering it gave them a connection, but it probably had horrible side-effects in the long run. Seeing that the Arch Demon's blood gave power to them, the Grey Wardens start experimenting with different ingredients and rituals until something worked with the desired effects they wanted, probably getting the blood from skirmishes with the Arch Demon.

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

According to The Calling, a very few of them do know where they are.

[Darius Vir]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

TEWR, I'm pretty sure that the Wardens do know the locations.  I wish I had a copy of The Calling, which I think is where we first hear of this.  

Also, I recall DG confirming on the boards (probably on the Origins boards awhile back) that this was indeed accurate.

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

According to The Calling, a very few of them do know where they are.

....
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....
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Well then....



edit: I imagine it has to do with the Calling which consists of the song the Old Gods sing, since it serves as a homing beacon for the Darkspawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 août 2011 - 12:11 .

[Darius Vir]

^ I remember when DG posted about this, he said something along the lines of (seriously paraphrased)"Yes, the Grey Wardens know the locations, but how they came across this information is something we've yet to reveal".

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
edit: I imagine it has to do with the Calling which consists of the song the Old Gods sing, since it serves as a homing beacon for the Darkspawn.

Except the Calling isn't strong enough to get directions before Wardens head into the Deep Roads. It's just kind of in the back of their minds. And even for the darkspawn, it's more of a hot/cold thing rather than a GPS equivalent. The fact that the Wardens do seem to have exact locations is interesting.

[Rifneno]

That... That's stupid. If the wardens know where the last old gods are imprisoned, why not keep those areas guarded? Yes, I know that would require a tremendous cost of life to retake such places... but it'd be a fraction, perhaps a small fraction, or the cost a blight will forcibly take.

[Monica21]

Rifneno wrote...

That... That's stupid. If the wardens know where the last old gods are imprisoned, why not keep those areas guarded? Yes, I know that would require a tremendous cost of life to retake such places... but it'd be a fraction, perhaps a small fraction, or the cost a blight will forcibly take.

How could they guard them? The darkspawn have to dig to get to them. Wardens can't get to them through pre-existing tunnels. I guess you could station some Wardens above ground to sense when the Archdemon wakes, but they might have already done that and we just don't know it.

[Darius Vir]

@ Rifneno Yeah. If I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly, then I remember it being said that they can't go after the Old Gods because basically gigantic swathes of darkspawn are in the way.

But I've thought ...since the Wardens (or at least leadership) knows, then wouldn't they basically be able to predict where the Blights will hit?

Modifié par Darius Vir, 29 août 2011 - 12:25 .

[Satyricon331]

Monica21 wrote...
I'm pretty sure DG said it, but I have no idea how to go about finding that quote.

There's a trick to it.    Here's the quote. 

Modifié par Satyricon331, 29 août 2011 - 02:41 .