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[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Yeah, I have no idea how they know the locations of the Archdemons. It's not all of the Wardens though, just a few. 

They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

In the calling its discovered the grey wardens do know the locations of the old gods

Edit: Yeah just realised this has already been said =P

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 29 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[Rifneno]

Darius Vir wrote...

@ Rifneno Yeah. If I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly, then I remember it being said that they can't go after the Old Gods because basically gigantic swathes of darkspawn are in the way.

Of course there is. I said I know it would cost a tremendous amount of lives. But how many more will die when those archdemons are released? That gigantic swath of darkspawn will need to be fought eventually, one way or another. Either fight them in their lair before they manage to enlist the aid of a god, or have them roaming around destroying entire cities until a far larger force is needed to take them and their tainted god down. It seems an obvious choice to me. Of course they would need to enlist the aid of many allies to accomplish this and it's possible there will be too many fools on thrones saying no to do it... but if that's the case, then the fault lies with those world leaders. Until the Wardens try and fail to convince them it's a worthy endeavour, the fault is with the Wardens.

Monica21 wrote...

How could they guard them? The darkspawn have to dig to get to them. Wardens can't get to them through pre-existing tunnels. I guess you could station some Wardens above ground to sense when the Archdemon wakes, but they might have already done that and we just don't know it.

Hmm. A fair point. There's no telling that the darkspawn won't be digging a much longer tunnel somewhere else I suppose. It would depend upon the darkspawn's mentality then. They're generally mindless, so I can see them following the old gods' call into a Warden outpost like a bunch of lemmings and not really figuring out the easiest path is too well guarded. There is another option, though it's extremely risky. Unleash the dragon themselves, on their own terms. But do they know whether the old gods are already tainted? Or are they tainted when the darkspawn find them? If they're already tainted it'd be simple enough to "release" the monster when there's 30 ballistas aimed at it, but a untainted old god would be... hard to predict.

[Darth Krytie]

Rifneno wrote...

Of course there is. I said I know it would cost a tremendous amount of lives. But how many more will die when those archdemons are released? That gigantic swath of darkspawn will need to be fought eventually, one way or another. Either fight them in their lair before they manage to enlist the aid of a god, or have them roaming around destroying entire cities until a far larger force is needed to take them and their tainted god down. It seems an obvious choice to me. Of course they would need to enlist the aid of many allies to accomplish this and it's possible there will be too many fools on thrones saying no to do it... but if that's the case, then the fault lies with those world leaders. Until the Wardens try and fail to convince them it's a worthy endeavour, the fault is with the Wardens.
.

Or it might still be a numbers game. The time in between blights are for rebuilding those numbers. If you take it on before you're prepared, it might not be a sustainable endeavour. If you have 1000 men and they have 10,000...if they're out in smaller chunks, that small force could feasibly kill the larger force. But, if you put it on head to head, there's a better than good chance you fail.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 29 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[esper]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Of course there is. I said I know it would cost a tremendous amount of lives. But how many more will die when those archdemons are released? That gigantic swath of darkspawn will need to be fought eventually, one way or another. Either fight them in their lair before they manage to enlist the aid of a god, or have them roaming around destroying entire cities until a far larger force is needed to take them and their tainted god down. It seems an obvious choice to me. Of course they would need to enlist the aid of many allies to accomplish this and it's possible there will be too many fools on thrones saying no to do it... but if that's the case, then the fault lies with those world leaders. Until the Wardens try and fail to convince them it's a worthy endeavour, the fault is with the Wardens.
.

Or it might still be a numbers game. The time in between blights are for rebuilding those numbers. If you take it on before you're prepared, it might not be a sustainable endeavour. If you have 1000 men and they have 10,000...if they're out in smaller chunks, that small force could feasibly kill the larger force. But, if you put it on head to head, there's a better than good chance you fail.

One of the basic principle of the warden is that it are people ready to sacrfice themself, and if the wardens knew the location some crazy Janeka-type would have tried something.

[TEWR]

Actually, depending on who is in those 1000 Wardens, they could easily take down 10000 Darkspawn.

If they have a bunch of mages, they could have them cast various spells to take them down, Virulent Walking bomb and Fireball being two good ones. And blood magic. And the powers the Taint gives Wardens

Now, if it was 100 Wardens, then it'd be really hard for them to take down 10000 Darkspawn. Not impossible, but more than likely they would fail.

[Darth Krytie]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, depending on who is in those 1000 Wardens, they could easily take down 10000 Darkspawn.

If they have a bunch of mages, they could have them cast various spells to take them down, Virulent Walking bomb and Fireball being two good ones. And blood magic. And the powers the Taint gives Wardens

Now, if it was 100 Wardens, then it'd be really hard for them to take down 10000 Darkspawn. Not impossible, but more than likely they would fail.

True. My point being, however, is that Wardens are made not born. You need to have the numbers available and the willingess of those said numbers to be recruited to even attempt such a thing. More people are willing to be Wardens when they can see the threat for themselves and not just on the theory that they could prevent a future atrocity. (An attitude we've seen in the game)

[Darius Vir]

There does seem to be some...misplaced perspective?....going on on the part of the Wardens.

Their entire existence is (ostensibly) dedicated to preparing to defend Thedas from a Blight, which by definition means an Archdemon is found and goes on to the lead the darkspawn to the surface en masse.

But, they KNOW where the Archdemons are...basically their worst enemies (again, you would think anyway).  Shouldn't it be that the Wardens primary focus is figuring out a way to get to these locations, as difficult as that might be?  Rather than basically ignoring it, and figuring "Yeah, just forget about. Let's just wait till they wake and start rampaging, and THEN we'll be ready". 

Seems like preparing for a surface Blight should be a backup plan, if anything, to figuring out a way to get the Archdemons/Old Gods down there. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 29 août 2011 - 01:44 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

There does seem to be some...misplaced perspective?....going on on the part of the Wardens.

Their entire existence is (ostensibly) dedicated to preparing to defend Thedas from a Blight, which by definition means an Archdemon is found and goes on to the lead the darkspawn to the surface en masse.

But, they KNOW where the Archdemons are...basically their worst enemies (again, you would think anyway).  Shouldn't it be that the Wardens primary focus is figuring out a way to get to these locations, as difficult as that might be?  Rather than basically ignoring it, and figuring "Yeah, just forget about. Let's just wait till they wake and start rampaging, and THEN we'll be ready". 

Seems like preparing for a surface Blight should be a backup plan, if anything, to figuring out a way to get the Archdemons/Old Gods down there.

I think you're misinterpreting two terms here - "Old Gods" and "Archdemons." They are not the same. Archdemons are supposed to be awakened and corrupted Old Gods. As far as I could understand it, what the Grey Wardens can hear is the call of the Archdemon, at least early on in their lives before they are overtaken by the corruption (and perhaps becoming mere ghouls). Only about 30 years later, after the Joining, it is that they start hearing "The Call of the Old Gods" that darkspawn always hear, and are always driven by before they find them. That is when the Grey Wardens know they'll succumb to the corruption, at which time they'd lose their sanity and will probably die. That's when they go for their "heroic death fighting darkspawn" in the Deep Roads.

EDIT: Correcting the wording.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 29 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think you're misinterpreting two terms here - "Old Gods" and "Archdemons." They are not the same. Archdemons are supposed to be awakened and corrupted Old Gods. As far as I could understand it, what the Grey Wardens can hear is the call of the Archdemon, at least early on in their lives before they are overtaken by the corruption (and perhaps becoming mere ghouls). Only about 30 years later, after the Joining, it is that they start hearing "The Call of the Old Gods" that darkspawn always hear, and are always driven by before they find them. That is when the Grey Wardens know they'll succumb to the corruption, at which time they'd lose their sanity and will probably die. That's when they go for their "heroic death fighting darkspawn" in the Deep Roads.

EDIT: Correcting the wording.

You're right, I should have been more precise concerning what I was designated. 

It's interesting.  Alistair tells the PC, when talking specifically about the Archdemon (by definition an awakened and tainted Old God) Urthemiel, that some of the older Grey Wardens can understand a bit of...something, either the Archdemon while awakened or the Old Gods' call. 

Which is weird, because Urthemiel hadn't been awakened long at all.  I don't know if he was talking lore, as in stories about Grey Wardens of generations past, or some of the Grey Wardens he'd met and must have died at Ostagar.  Might be reading too much into it.

Either way, I'd never actually given much thought to the distinction between the two "calls".  I wonder what happened in, say, the Second Blight.  It lasted 90 years, so multiple generations where there is an Archdemon up and running while several Old Gods are still imprisoned and have a call of their own.

Edit:  A random question that might just be gameplay related.  You know how the PC views the Archdemon during the Joining, and then the PC and Alistair dream or "view" Urthemiel later on?  Just where the hell was the Archdemon supposed to be when they saw it?  I guess both dream and vision could be some type of metaphysical entity, but it sure wasn't depicted as underground in the Deep Roads, which is where you physically view it at one point. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 29 août 2011 - 09:11 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

It's interesting.  Alistair tells the PC, when talking specifically about the Archdemon (by definition an awakened and tainted Old God) Urthemiel, that some of the older Grey Wardens can understand a bit of...something, either the Archdemon while awakened or the Old Gods' call. 

Which is weird, because Urthemiel hadn't been awakened long at all.  I don't know if he was talking lore, as in stories about Grey Wardens of generations past, or some of the Grey Wardens he'd met and must have died at Ostagar.  Might be reading too much into it.

My bet would be on the Old God's call. The older a Grey Warden gets, the more likely the corruption is in the process of taking over his/her body and mind. The context is a bit confusing though - I'm not sure whether Alistair heard this while the Archdemon was awake or before.

Either way, I'd never actually given much thought to the distinction between the two "calls".  I wonder what happened in, say, the Second Blight.  It lasted 90 years, so multiple generations where there is an Archdemon up and running while several Old Gods are still imprisoned and have a call of their own.

Pure guesswork: my thought is that the Archdemon's call sort of "crowds out" the call(s) from other Old Gods. The awakened Archdemon seems to take charge of the horde - to organize it, to give it directions, and finally to command it to attack. I believe this might indicate that the soul the Archdemon has is one of a military leader, versed in the arts of war. I don't know if we can use that as a hint at something - to try to piece together this mystery.

Edit:  A random question that might just be gameplay related.  You know how the PC views the Archdemon during the Joining, and then the PC and Alistair dream or "view" Urthemiel later on?  Just where the hell was the Archdemon supposed to be when they saw it?  I guess both dream and vision could be some type of metaphysical entity, but it sure wasn't depicted as underground in the Deep Roads, which is where you physically view it at one point.

My guess, again, is that the first "sensing" of the Archdemon was perhaps an immediate effect of consuming the potent, corrupted blood. This may or may not have been Urthemiel - this could very well have been the very Archdemon from which the blood was taken. Now the one dream/nightmare that the Grey Warden wakes from was perhaps to show to the PC that the Blight is very much real - the Archdemon is awake; and that the Grey Warden can sense it. And it does not contradict anything, since we know that Grey Wardens with the taint in them can sense darkspawn and the Archdemon, and vice versa. The taint somehow makes that possible.

I think the differentiation between the call of the Archdemon and the Old Gods could be an important one. And apparently the Grey Wardens, while they still retain their minds and bodies, cannot hear the Old Gods.

And, while on this subject, there is a weird connection between two apperently disconnected, disjointed events. The Mother (from Awakening) describes the call of the Old Gods as "sweet music" and she was trying to re-connect herself and her darkspawn to the Calling. And apparently Bartrand says the same thing in DA2, "I can't... I can't... hear it anymore. I just need to hear the song again... just for a minute..." As he was also trying to reconnect himself (and connect his guards also by feeding them lyrium) to that song. These aren't mere coincidences, I think, but the connection between them isn't an obvious one. If I had to take a guess on this one, I'd say the "song" is a property of the lyrium itself - and the more potent the lyrium, the stronger the song/call and hence the more irresistable it becomes. The difference between these two events could simply be the type of soul/spirit that gets trapped within - the soul of an Old God or some other powerful entity, that kind of piggybacks on this property of lyrium to perhaps achieve its own ends.

The particular difficulty I'm having is with Meredith and how events with her turned out. Bartrand behaves in a different way, but with Meredith it almost seems as if she was better able to repel the effects of the spirit or whatever was trapped within - at least for a while. At least she didn't try to make anyone eat lyrium and so help them to hear the song or anything. The idol probably just drove her mad, more than anything. And of course there is all that transpired at the end of the game. It almost seemed to me that Meredith's spirit sort of drove off whatever was earlier trapped there and replaced it in the lyrium, and amplified her powers in the meantime, at the very end, when she totally loses it. And the statue at the end could very well have her spirit/soul trapped within. It would be interesting to see if that plays a part in the future.

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding the difference in behavior between Bartrand and Meredith - there was some discussion awhile back about this. I think the idol's influence on a person has to do with the will or mental fortitude of the "victim." Or maybe just their personality in general.

Bartrand is shifty - he's selfish, driven by his more base desires most likely. The idol may "read" him as a Renfield sort of character. A thrall, someone to do its bidding. Hence the feeding and the attempts to get others to worship the idol. He's not strong in conviction and so easily falls under the idol's sway (Of course, I also hold to the theory that the idol may be forcing a replay of past events - that's tangential though).

Meredith however is stronger in her personality - she lives by her resolve to make things right and just and orderly. The idol may have spoken to her akin to a desire demon - coaxing her under its power with promises of might, or feeding her own suppressed paranoia and righteousness.

Maybe, to connect the musical applications, the idol acts as an amplifier of the song (either the old gods or the lyrium, or some melding of both). Some can, to a degree and within limits, move to its music but are eventually overwhelmed by it. Music that drives a person mad because he/she cannot truly comprehend it. Maybe it's the battle of wills (resistance to the song) that pushes a person off the edge.

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, depending on who is in those 1000 Wardens, they could easily take down 10000 Darkspawn.

If they have a bunch of mages, they could have them cast various spells to take them down, Virulent Walking bomb and Fireball being two good ones. And blood magic. And the powers the Taint gives Wardens

Now, if it was 100 Wardens, then it'd be really hard for them to take down 10000 Darkspawn. Not impossible, but more than likely they would fail.

I reckon it'd be possible. We must get to what, 1500 of the buggers by the end of Awakening? Obviously THE Warden is far superior to the average run of the mill Warden, but considering that a typical Warden mage probably uses blood magic, by summoning a few demons to bolster numbers, and whacking a few storms of the century down, each Warden could probably take a hundred darkspawn.

[Darius Vir]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding the difference in behavior between Bartrand and Meredith - there was some discussion awhile back about this. I think the idol's influence on a person has to do with the will or mental fortitude of the "victim." Or maybe just their personality in general.

Bartrand is shifty - he's selfish, driven by his more base desires most likely. The idol may "read" him as a Renfield sort of character. A thrall, someone to do its bidding. Hence the feeding and the attempts to get others to worship the idol. He's not strong in conviction and so easily falls under the idol's sway (Of course, I also hold to the theory that the idol may be forcing a replay of past events - that's tangential though).

Meredith however is stronger in her personality - she lives by her resolve to make things right and just and orderly. The idol may have spoken to her akin to a desire demon - coaxing her under its power with promises of might, or feeding her own suppressed paranoia and righteousness.

I was thinking something similar to this.  "Spirit" seems to be something which has a physical presence in some form or another within the DA universe.  Which is kind of oxymoronic given OUR definition of spirit, but whatever. 

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

And, while on this subject, there is a weird connection between two apperently disconnected, disjointed events. The Mother (from Awakening) describes the call of the Old Gods as "sweet music" and she was trying to re-connect herself and her darkspawn to the Calling. And apparently Bartrand says the same thing in DA2, "I can't... I can't... hear it anymore. I just need to hear the song again... just for a minute..." As he was also trying to reconnect himself (and connect his guards also by feeding them lyrium) to that song. These aren't mere coincidences, I think, but the connection between them isn't an obvious one. If I had to take a guess on this one, I'd say the "song" is a property of the lyrium itself - and the more potent the lyrium, the stronger the song/call and hence the more irresistable it becomes. The difference between these two events could simply be the type of soul/spirit that gets trapped within - the soul of an Old God or some other powerful entity, that kind of piggybacks on this property of lyrium to perhaps achieve its own ends.

The beautiful and compelling nature of the/a song also is noted by Avernus in his notes.  Some type of exceptionally beautiful voice is calling him, and he senses that it's coming from the Black City. 

Just throwing that in there under the "beautiful song" count.  

Modifié par Darius Vir, 30 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Corker]

My personal pet theory, for which I have not the slightest shred of evidence, is that Flemeth told the first Wardens how to defeat the Archdemon, and she's been angling for that OGB ever since.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Darius Vir - But the disparities in definition may just have to do with our inability to rationalize the intangible. It's easier when thrown in to a fantasy realm, because we can suspend disbelief and say "sure, the spirit has substance." Maybe "spirit" IRL is measurable but we don't have the right tools to measure it yet. Of course, now I'm thinking of that Twilight Zone episode where the little girl gets trapped in the 4th dimension, but I digress.

Completely wild theory here, but what if the "calling" is sort of a mini out-of-body experience? While it isn't clear that the Fade is involved in the Joining ritual, lyrium is used. Coupled with darkspawn/archdemon blood and whatever other 11 herbs and spices, perhaps becoming a warden somehow causes a slight separation of the person's spirit (or soul). Maybe the warden's spirit is awakened to new capabilities and as the corruption eventually takes him/her to the stage of the Calling, that spirit aspect is really just trying to break free. Hence the compulsion to go to the deep roads, to be closer to the source. The spirit is trying to join the whole, the song.

Which then makes me wonder if the Joining is closer to something done by the ancient elves or dwarves. If lyrium sings, and the stone sings, is the Stone (proper noun) the origin of the song? Maybe the old gods and archdemons are just part of the chorus (the stronger set of voices) but the true melody is measured out by something else.

A bit too tangential, perhaps.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding the difference in behavior between Bartrand and Meredith - there was some discussion awhile back about this. I think the idol's influence on a person has to do with the will or mental fortitude of the "victim." Or maybe just their personality in general.

Bartrand is shifty - he's selfish, driven by his more base desires most likely. The idol may "read" him as a Renfield sort of character. A thrall, someone to do its bidding. Hence the feeding and the attempts to get others to worship the idol. He's not strong in conviction and so easily falls under the idol's sway (Of course, I also hold to the theory that the idol may be forcing a replay of past events - that's tangential though).

I think we can do something simpler than analyzing their psyche profiles, for the moment anyway.

Let's shift back to the song. Let me mention a few points:
1. Dwarves, in general, can hear the lyrium sing, again in general. This is mentioned in some codex. I believe that is how they know where to mine it.
2. Bartrand hears the song during "Family Matters." The quote I wrote earlier very much confirms that.
3. Varric hears the song during "Haunted"
4. None of the other companions (humans, elves) hears a song when they are in that haunted Bartrand's mansion.
5. Darkspawn hear the song of the Old Gods. Eerily similar to the song from lyrium idol, to the lyrium in general.
6. Dwarves and darkspawn aren't connected to the Fade in the way that other species are. Darkspawn are soulless, at least when they're created - I'm very much certain that they don't enter the Fade or even dream.

The degrees of one being affected/enthralled by the "song" varies, but the essential connection is there, I think. The Fade and lyrium - connection to the former is inversely proportional, and the latter directly.

Meredith however is stronger in her personality - she lives by her resolve to make things right and just and orderly. The idol may have spoken to her akin to a desire demon - coaxing her under its power with promises of might, or feeding her own suppressed paranoia and righteousness.

The interesting thing is she "deforms" the idol. She re-makes it as a sword. She is tapping into the raw power of that lyrium - the animating of things, the giving to her of exceptional power. Even the events at the mansion during Haunted seem to indicate this - animating things. Although, there are issues of souls running around, an etherial golem, etc in that mansion. These we could assume to be the spirits/demons trapped within the idol itself, unleashed after the fragment perhaps failed to contain it. Anders seem to observe this - "What's going on here? There's no way the Veil could be torn this badly." If the Veil isn't torn, then the only other explanation I have is the spirits trapped within the idol itself. Lyrium traps idols spirits - that much is almost certain in my mind.

Maybe, to connect the musical applications, the idol acts as an amplifier of the song (either the old gods or the lyrium, or some melding of both). Some can, to a degree and within limits, move to its music but are eventually overwhelmed by it. Music that drives a person mad because he/she cannot truly comprehend it. Maybe it's the battle of wills (resistance to the song) that pushes a person off the edge.

But there is no evidence that Meredith, the PC, any of the human or elven companions heard the music or song. In fact, I think, if Varric asks Hawke if he/she heard that music, Hawke says "no." The others don't hear it - only dwarves do. And, anyone who succumbs to the taint and becomes a ghoul (every Grey Warden also, apparently) also does. Look at Gaider's comment:
"The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not
make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the
blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found
him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have
disappeared one night and never been seen again."

Why would that person go missing? He/she goes to the Deep Roads in search of the "song" because the song lures the tainted ghoul - just like the darkspawn. Seems like a likely explanation.

And the purpose of the song itself is to lure, I think. It doesn't drive one mad. The madness seems like the work of something else.

My mind is beginning to wonder other things, too, now. The process by which the awakening of the Archdemon itself works:
1. Old God's (or whatever's) soul is trapped/contained within some part of lyrium (perhaps that particularly "evil" or "potent" variety introduced in DA2)
2. Darkspawn hear this the strongest - even stronger than the dwarves perhaps.
3. They keep digging and tunneling, and freeing whatever trapped souls they find.
4. Finally they hit the jackpot. The soul now jumps into the nearest darkspawn and inhabits it - it reforms the darksapwn in the image of a dragon. As Riorden observes when the Archdemon itself is slain by anyone other than a Grey Warden. An Archdemon is thus born.
5. Now that this soul gets a body - it somehow takes charge of the horde.

The darkspawn themseves are "engineered" by someone/something to be able to do this. This is no accident, it appears to me.

It is a little iffy here and there - but it makes sense to me.

EDIT: Correcting some words.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 30 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Meredith may "hear" something - there is mention by some NPCs that the Knight-Commander has been heard talking to someone in her office although no one is present with her. Bartrand has a brief flash of talking to an unseen entity when confronted by Varric. If the seemingly sentient voice is part of the "song", then it's possible that humans can hear it - they just have to be linked to it somehow, a designated victim. Maybe dwarves are more susceptible (and can hear it due to concentration of its power) but humans must endure extended exposure before they hear the sweet strains.

Of course, "song" may not be so literal. Perhaps it's just conversation or dictation, spoken in a certain cadence so as to evoke a melody. No real music, but a lyrical delivery. Much like a spell, possibly caught in an endless loop.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Corker - There's been some speculation about the slaying of Dumat, and whether or not the dark ritual was used then (since the Grey Warden who killed the archdemon is never, as of yet, named). Maybe Flemeth already raised an OGB and is suffering now from empty nest syndrome?

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Meredith may "hear" something - there is mention by some NPCs that the Knight-Commander has been heard talking to someone in her office although no one is present with her. Bartrand has a brief flash of talking to an unseen entity when confronted by Varric. If the seemingly sentient voice is part of the "song", then it's possible that humans can hear it - they just have to be linked to it somehow, a designated victim. Maybe dwarves are more susceptible (and can hear it due to concentration of its power) but humans must endure extended exposure before they hear the sweet strains.

What you state about the Knight-Commander is she's "talking," not necessarily "hearing" anything. (Is it Cullen who says this? I actually forget.) Maybe she talks out of delirum - who knows? We haven't seen it, much less know anything about it, the way we know about Bartrand, Varric, the darkspawn, with firsthand experiences or accounts. If there is anything to this, I hope they elaborate it in some DLC or future game. In fact the whole "story" of Meredith and the idol is more or less non-existent at the moment.

Ok, anyway. I should have been clearer in my earlier post. Here's what I think. There is the "song" and there is the "voice." There is no reason to think these are the same. Look at Bartrand. When we meet him, he clearly says he's not able to hear the song. Hugin, his steward says he's trying to hear the song again. And Bartrand "talks" to something. He converses with it right in front of our eyes. This is the reason why I think the "song" isn't of the spirit; it is of the lyrium itself - it ties in with what has been mentioned before about lyrium and dwarves. The "voice" though, I believe is of the spirit.

Of course, I assume some spirit was within the lyrium idol and is no longer within it, at the time of meeting Bartrand. Big, big assumption. No way to substantiate it at the moment. One of the reasons why I said the theory was a bit "iffy."

Let me mention one other issues with what I said earlier. Surface dwarves are supposed to lose their ability to resist magic over time. This may have to do with their regaining connection to the Fade (again, these things aren't set in stone, so to speak, so there is no way if such a connection even exists). If this is the case, it weakens my link between the "song" and its impact on creatures apparently conneced to the Fade, viz. surface dwarves, aka Varric.

Of course, "song" may not be so literal. Perhaps it's just conversation or dictation, spoken in a certain cadence so as to evoke a melody. No real music, but a lyrical delivery. Much like a spell, possibly caught in an endless loop.

Yes, perhaps. There is no way to deny that because I don't know what either song "sounds" like.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

The beautiful and compelling nature of the/a song also is noted by Avernus in his notes.  Some type of exceptionally beautiful voice is calling him, and he senses that it's coming from the Black City. 

Just throwing that in there under the "beautiful song" count.

I missed this earlier.

It has been a very long time since I did a DAO playthrough. I have forgotten all these details. The issue with literally everything is no one seems to know what or where this Black City is. I don't think Avernus knows it either, so I don't know on what basis he makes this statement. Although, looking at his comment, it must be that he succumbed to this taint at some point - how else is/was he able to hear the song? A typical Grey Warden doesn't hear it. Perhaps I am missing something...

How I generally understand Avernus is that he's researching the taint post hoc, after the event that unleashed the corruption. He cannot know the past, and unless he went looking for it, he cannot know where (or sense) the Black City is; what he can know about are the properties of the taint itself. So I take his other statements with a grain of salt.

If he however succumbed to the taint and became a ghoul (not sure how he came back if that is the case), he might have sensed it in the same way that any other darkspawn or ghoul might. It is there somewhere underground, or somewhere with access from the Deep Roads.

[jamesp81]

I wonder if the early Wardens learned about it from Reavers. Reavers are a dragon-worshipping cult that also drink of magically prepared dragon's blood.

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Darius Vir wrote...

The beautiful and compelling nature of the/a song also is noted by Avernus in his notes.  Some type of exceptionally beautiful voice is calling him, and he senses that it's coming from the Black City. 

Just throwing that in there under the "beautiful song" count.

I missed this earlier.

It has been a very long time since I did a DAO playthrough. I have forgotten all these details. The issue with literally everything is no one seems to know what or where this Black City is. I don't think Avernus knows it either, so I don't know on what basis he makes this statement. Although, looking at his comment, it must be that he succumbed to this taint at some point - how else is/was he able to hear the song? A typical Grey Warden doesn't hear it. Perhaps I am missing something...

How I generally understand Avernus is that he's researching the taint post hoc, after the event that unleashed the corruption. He cannot know the past, and unless he went looking for it, he cannot know where (or sense) the Black City is; what he can know about are the properties of the taint itself. So I take his other statements with a grain of salt.

If he however succumbed to the taint and became a ghoul (not sure how he came back if that is the case), he might have sensed it in the same way that any other darkspawn or ghoul might. It is there somewhere underground, or somewhere with access from the Deep Roads.

Hmmm.  Well, as I take it, Avernus has "held off" some of the effects of the Taint through his research and his blood magic.  I'm not sure we know the details of anything close to exactly how.    Again, as I understand, the final stage corruption of the Taint is gradual.  A Grey Warden will begin to hear the the calling, and assume that their time is almost up, though not instaneously.  However, what most of them don't know is that they won't be killed from the Taint, but will turn into a ghoul (again, gradually).  So The Calling journey is ostensibly meant to spare them from this knowledge and experience.  So I think that Avernus has begun to hit the first stages of his Calling, and might be experiencing a few idiosyncracies based on his situation. 

Paraphrasing what his notes say (I can't seem to link)...he says that he is now beginning to feel the corruption of the Taint, and that he has over time been able to slow down the spread to a point...This is impressive given his survival through centuries compared to a Grey Warden's 30ish year career, and is what makes me think he might be experiencing things not experienced or reported by others.    By this point he says he is STARTING to hear things, primarily a beautiful voice calling him (while awake), and that in his dreams he can see the Black City, and it is also calling him.

He's been working alone for a LONG time.  Personally, I take what he says as basically acccurate, in that he's honestly reporting what he's experiencing at least.  That said, I'm totally an Avernus mark. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 30 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

Hmmm.  Well, as I take it, Avernus has "held off" some of the effects of the Taint through his research and his blood magic.  I'm not sure we know the details of anything close to exactly how.    Again, as I understand, the final stage corruption of the Taint is gradual.  A Grey Warden will begin to hear the the calling, and assume that their time is almost up, though not instaneously.  However, what most of them don't know is that they won't be killed from the Taint, but will turn into a ghoul (again, gradually).  So The Calling journey is ostensibly meant to spare them from this knowledge and experience.  So I think that Avernus has begun to hit the first stages of his Calling, and might be experiencing a few idiosyncracies based on his situation. 

Paraphrasing what his notes say (I can't seem to link)...he says that he is now beginning to feel the corruption of the Taint, and that he has over time been able to slow down the spread to a point...This is impressive given his survival through centuries compared to a Grey Warden's 30ish year career, and is what makes me think he might be experiencing things not experienced or reported by others.    By this point he says he is STARTING to hear things, primarily a beautiful voice calling him (while awake), and that in his dreams he can see the Black City, and it is also calling him.

He's been working alone for a LONG time.  Personally, I take what he says as basically acccurate, in that he's honestly reporting what he's experiencing at least.  That said, I'm totally an Avernus mark. 

Ah, okay. He is now feeling the effects of the corruption. That makes sense. But, still, about the "seeing" of the Black City - I'm kind of skeptical. His experience should be no different from any ghoul or darkspawn - so unless every ghoul/darkspawn sees (or thinks it/he/she sees) the City...

I honestly hope he figures out something further about what he sees, though. I left him alive to continue his research.

[Sajuro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is something that's been bugging me myself. It's not something you just stumble upon easily or know about before it's ever been done before.

Could it be that one of the old gods or Fenharrel or a demon told them? Having the arch demon destroy everything is bad for business you know.