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[Macropodmum]

Justice in Awakenings also mentioned the lyrium singing.... what if it is the actual lyrium that sings and not the old gods? 

Modifié par Macropodmum, 31 août 2011 - 01:09 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

Justice in Awakenings also mentioned the lyrium singing.... what if it is the actual lyrium that sings and not the old gods? 

Well, if that is the case, I find at least theorycrafting becomes a lot simpler.

But isn't Justice a spirit? How would he know about lyrium singing? Hmm...

[Macropodmum]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

Justice in Awakenings also mentioned the lyrium singing.... what if it is the actual lyrium that sings and not the old gods? 

Well, if that is the case, I find at least theorycrafting becomes a lot simpler.

But isn't Justice a spirit? How would he know about lyrium singing? Hmm...

Well he was in Kristoff's body at the time...but I think his recollections of the lyrium singing were as a spirit, as he asks you if you find any lyrium rocks to bring them back for him (something along those lines I think, it has been a while since I did an awakening run through)

[whykikyouwhy]

If memory serves, I think there is a conversation triggered when you gift him with a lyrium ring.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

Justice in Awakenings also mentioned the lyrium singing.... what if it is the actual lyrium that sings and not the old gods? 

Well, if that is the case, I find at least theorycrafting becomes a lot simpler.

But isn't Justice a spirit? How would he know about lyrium singing? Hmm...

Well he was in Kristoff's body at the time...but I think his recollections of the lyrium singing were as a spirit, as he asks you if you find any lyrium rocks to bring them back for him (something along those lines I think, it has been a while since I did an awakening run through)

Oh, thank you so much.

I shall recount the whole episode for you. It is Justice (in Kristoff's body) who brings up his desire for a small piece of pure lyrium rock. Enough of my talk, let him take over:

To the PC...
"I wonder... may I make a request?"
"There is something in this world you call lyrium. Might you find me an object made from it?"
"I desire only the smallest bit of pure rock. The version of lyrium that mortals dream of in the Fade... it is not the same. Here, it sings."
"The sound is something only a spirit could hear, but it summons an ache I didn't know I had."

After the PC gifts him the ring:
"What is that sound? Such beautiful singing. The stone within this ring... is it lyrium?"
"You found it, just as I asked of you. I am most grateful."
"Of all the things I have seen in this world, this is the most precious."
"I shall keep it at my side as a reminder that even in misfortune, good can be found."

It was most fascinating to hear.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

If memory serves, I think there is a conversation triggered when you gift him with a lyrium ring.

And thank you for bringing up the context. From what you said, it makes me think you might not have heard the full conversation - at least not in the other way it can happen. So, for your reference, this. It is a voice I immediately took a liking to. Worthy enough to compel me to do an Awakening playthrough now - my very first. It should be exciting.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think the Lyrium's singing and the Song of the Old Gods is the same thing or all that related. We do know that the Archdemons so have a song because Tamlen could hear it, and the Architect's research subjects did too. But the song that Justice listens to from the lyrium ring seems to be harmless, and only audible to fade spirits.

Avernus notes suggest to me he was probably hearing the song of the Old Gods. He says he was dreaming of the Black City but he says the song calls to him from the depths. I don't think he meant it was coming from the Black City.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 31 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Corker]

Yes, lyrium itself is said to sing by the dwarves. It actually leads the miners to the ore; since the ore is not a slumbering Old God, I'd say that implies the lyrium song and the darkspawn song are not the same. I'd think that the song of the red lyrium is related to the more usual lyrium song, and not necessarily the darkspawn song.

DAO Codex entry: Lyrium: "Only a handful of Mining Caste families hazard extracting the ore, finding veins in the Stone quite literally by ear. For in its raw form, lyrium sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock. "

Shaper's Amulet: "This amulet sings softly to itself, its lyrium heart filled with ancient knowledge of the dwarven empire."

Codex entry: Crosscut Drifters: "I swear I could tap it and hear the Stone sing."

Plus the Justice dialogues given above.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wild tangent, and perhaps too literal (or too figurative, I'm not sure) - what if it's the same song but a different chorus? Lost verses? Maybe if your awareness is attuned in one regard, you hear one song (dwarves), but once there is some change in you (wardens), you hear a deeper resonance of the song - a different pitch (like a dog whistle, though that is higher - just an example). The common element is that both songs seemingly *lead* the listener to something.

[Corker]

I'm not sure that lyrium "leads" dwarves to it; I think they just *want* it and follow the song to find it.

But there may be some sort of commonality. The codex is a little fuzzy on the nature of the Old Gods. The Archdemon entry also mentions a "casting down"... from the Fade/Golden City? Or from the mortal world to below the earth? It's not unequivocal, although I would lean naturally to thinking they were Fade spirits. They did teach humanity blood magic, and (today at least) that comes from Fade demons.

Lyrium appears to exist in both the Fade and the mortal world. I thought there was a codex confirming this, but I can't find it, so it may be that the lyrium we see there is "the version mortals dream of in the Fade"... but that doesn't feel right. Mages do magic via a Fade connection; lyrium enhances that connection; it seems to make sense that the mineral itself has a dual nature.

So might the Old Gods, as powerful Fade beings trapped in mortal incarnations. They also are connected to the Fade, as we're told Dumat first taught blood magic to the magisters in their dreams.

That might be why Justice/Kristoff and Justice/Anders *don't* sing. Justice reports that he is totally cut off from the Fade when he awakens in Kristoff, doesn't he? The corpse doesn't have a connection to the Fade, and the spirit is marooned by a powerful magic. (But then, if Anders is a mage with a strong Fade connection, you'd think he'd have it back... eh, maybe the taint messes with that?)

The dual nature would have to be very strong, something that of itself somehow exists in both planes at the same time, since simple abominations don't cause this to happen. Just meat-puppeting a body isn't good enough.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think the Lyrium's singing and the Song of the Old Gods is the same thing or all that related. We do know that the Archdemons so have a song because Tamlen could hear it, and the Architect's research subjects did too. But the song that Justice listens to from the lyrium ring seems to be harmless, and only audible to fade spirits.

Ok, let me put it this way. There is Joe - he absolutely obsesses over a piece of rock music. He listens to it day and night, he attends all the live concerts, he always wears his only one shirt, that the Oh! God of Rock!, happened to touch in that concert. He didn't bathe for a full month after that concert. He went without food for 2 days when his parents didn't give him enough money to get that album - putting his health gravely at risk. Lately his grades at school have started to drop. His parents and friends are clearly worried...

And then there is Jessica - she loves the same piece of music. Whenever she finds time she listens to it. It is her favorite, all time great. She really wishes to do her homework quickly enough today so that she can get to hear that song again, later in the evening. Ah, the agony of the wait...

Clearly I referred to the same piece of music, but two very different (obsessive?) effects it has on two very different individuals. There is nothing inherently good/bad, harmful/harmless in that music itself.

So there is no error in logic to think that one song could be doing different things to different individuals/entities in DA also. Now, whether you believe the two songs to be the same or not, or even that they are the same or not - these are very different, at at the moment, very much contentious.

Still, carrying this further, some evil marketing genius somehow figured out a way to alter people's minds so that there are more of Joes and less of Jessicas in this world. He wanted to make a huge pile of money. Which is how I envision the darkspawn themselves to be - engineered to be obsessed by the song to the power of N, by some evil genius.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Wild tangent, and perhaps too literal (or too figurative, I'm not sure) - what if it's the same song but a different chorus? Lost verses? Maybe if your awareness is attuned in one regard, you hear one song (dwarves), but once there is some change in you (wardens), you hear a deeper resonance of the song - a different pitch (like a dog whistle, though that is higher - just an example). The common element is that both songs seemingly *lead* the listener to something.

Very much possible. But, again, I feel it unnecessary to assume that the songs have to be different. We can just as well attribute the change to the species, individuals themselves, which you also hinted at. The audiophiles among us like to listen to every beat, every tone, every crash of the cymbal, after all - the obsession, if it can be called that, runs differently, and to varying degrees.

My intention was to explore whether some simple, non-contradictory explanation could be attributed to what we're seeing. I don't think we can really say at the moment what that difference is - if there is any. Just ackwnoledge either possibility, I suppose.

Corker wrote...

I'm not sure that lyrium "leads" dwarves to it; I think they just *want* it and follow the song to find it.

But wasn't it you who first used the term "leads." Anyway, I guess you're right. Dwarven logic - if that's how we are, why not make some money out of it?!

But there may be some sort of commonality. The codex is a little fuzzy on the nature of the Old Gods. The Archdemon entry also mentions a "casting down"... from the Fade/Golden City? Or from the mortal world to below the earth? It's not unequivocal, although I would lean naturally to thinking they were Fade spirits. They did teach humanity blood magic, and (today at least) that comes from Fade demons.

Someday, if some entity were to approach a random person in Thedas and declare - "Behold, mortal! You're in the presence of an Old God! And Lord of them all, Lord Dumat himself!" And what if the mortal were to declare, "May I see some identification please!"

Jokes aside, how do we know what an Old God actually looks like? No matter what it does, it could still be some random, yet powerful Fade spirit/demon, to some people anyway...

Lyrium appears to exist in both the Fade and the mortal world. I thought there was a codex confirming this, but I can't find it, so it may be that the lyrium we see there is "the version mortals dream of in the Fade"... but that doesn't feel right. Mages do magic via a Fade connection; lyrium enhances that connection; it seems to make sense that the mineral itself has a dual nature.

As you said, it perhaps has more to do with the "connection" itself. Lyrium merely enhances it. I think there is no reason to think that his somehow must involve lyrium on both sides of the Veil. And at any rate, I've not seen any mention of lyrium in the Fade, so if you do remember something, please do share.

EDIT: Fixing formatting...

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:50 .

[Corker]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Corker wrote...

I'm not sure that lyrium "leads" dwarves to it; I think they just *want* it and follow the song to find it.

But wasn't it you who first used the term "leads." Anyway, I guess you're right. Dwarven logic - if that's how we are, why not make some money out of it?!

Because I was using "leads" as in "The sound of running water led Mahariel to the brook," not "The trail of candy led to a box propped up on a stick."  The brook doesn't care if it's found, yet its sound can lead people to it anyway.  On the other hand, the trail of candy has clear intent to entice someone onward - that's also leading, but in a different way.  I got the sense I used the first meaning and folks took it as the second, so I clarified.

Interestingly, one of the codices suggests that the darkspawn aren't compelled to find the Old Gods by the Old Gods themselves, but are perhaps acting in some kind of revenge mode ("You got us turned into darkspawn so we're gonna taint you and make you an Archdemon!").  In which case, the taint song *also* doesn't compel anything.  

But my impression from the game - largely from Ruck and Tamlen - is that the song *does* compel.  Of course, that's the post-corruption Archdemon song, not the slumbering Old God song, so... *shrug*

As you said, it perhaps has more to do with the "connection" itself. Lyrium merely enhances it. I think there is no reason to think that his somehow must involve lyrium on both sides of the Veil. And at any rate, I've not seen any mention of lyrium in the Fade, so if you do remember something, please do share.

Well, if you believe the game visuals, it's there.  I know there's some sitting around when you fight Sloth in Broken Circle in DAO.

[mousestalker]

You can see, but not use, lyrium when you confront the Desire Demon about Conner. You can see and use lyrium all through the Fade in Broken Circle, starting with Weisshaupt Fortress and ending with the Sloth Demon's domain.

Unless you're a dwarf. In which case the lyrium just taunts you.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Corker wrote...

Because I was using "leads" as in "The sound of running water led Mahariel to the brook," not "The trail of candy led to a box propped up on a stick."  The brook doesn't care if it's found, yet its sound can lead people to it anyway.  On the other hand, the trail of candy has clear intent to entice someone onward - that's also leading, but in a different way.  I got the sense I used the first meaning and folks took it as the second, so I clarified.

I didn't mean much in terms of accusation by it, but I thought it was you who changed his/her mind. I was wrong apparently.

Anyway, taking your analogy a bit further, it may not just be the "trail of candy" that entices someone - not everyone falls for it or even feels compelled to follow it. I think it is also something to do within the mental process within a person. And I believe alteration of it has been suggested/implied with the darkspawn in DA. The "trail of candy" being the lyrium veins/pathways and the "box popped up on a stick" being the trapped soul, supposedly of an Old God. And the darkspawn always fall for it - they don't have a choice. Unless one considers the events of Awakening - which by no means indicates the normal variety of darkspawn. That is my take on it.

Interestingly, one of the codices suggests that the darkspawn aren't compelled to find the Old Gods by the Old Gods themselves, but are perhaps acting in some kind of revenge mode ("You got us turned into darkspawn so we're gonna taint you and make you an Archdemon!").  In which case, the taint song *also* doesn't compel anything.

Very much possible. I never saw any suggestion that the Old Gods themselves wished to be found by the darskpawn; but that doesn't preclude a third entity at work - it perhaps even suggests such a possibility.

Here's the codex you meant. But there's a catch - if you're willing to believe in the "revenge" part, then perhaps you'd also perhaps need to accept the "old gods are slumbering dragons" bit - which by the way is also part of the explanation of that codex. It may even make sense - the two things Old Gods and Dragon Gods are used somewhat interchangably in some places.

Here's what David Gaider said on the matter. There is definitely someone's/something's compulsion involved. Is it pure hatred? Who knows? But would that hatred explain the way in which the darkspawn are created, the way in which they are? I don't think so. The taint - viz. I believe that mysterious force that is not well-understood - compels them. And I don't think it's of their own doing. Consider: the darkspawn are created out of ghouls. That's the only way they're born. Whatever the darkspawn are - they came after the creation of the taint. So naturally the taint is something viz. not of darkspawn's own doing.

And, also, I don't think the taint and song are linked in the way you expressed - I mean there is no "taint song." That's my whole argument. My belief is the taint uses the "song" as a means to an end. And, yes, I believe the darkspawn are compelled to seek out the source of the song - all the time - until, of course, somehow the Archdemon is awoken. And it is the taint in them that makes them seek the song out.

But my impression from the game - largely from Ruck and Tamlen - is that the song *does* compel.  Of course, that's the post-corruption Archdemon song, not the slumbering Old God song, so... *shrug*

It is also implied that ghouls behave in much the same way that darkspawn do - seek out the "song" prior to the awakening of the Archdemon, or join the darkspawn horde and fight alongside them, after the Archdemon is awakened. The only thing is that they don't last survive very long, a few months at most. The taint does't sustain them, at least the way that it does the darkspawn.

Well, if you believe the game visuals, it's there.  I know there's some sitting around when you fight Sloth in Broken Circle in DAO.

But why view the lyrium there differently, than say, the whole Circle that is apparently there? Surely, if one can see that all the rest of it is a dreamworld, there is no compelling reason to think that the lyrium there isn't also out of some dream. At the moment, I think Justice speaks the truth - the lyrium there is as the spirits perceive, via dreams, the "real" lyrium from the mortal realm; and since there is apparently no one who dreams and enters the Fade and who can hear the song of the lyrium also, then it stands to reason that the "version of lyrium" in the Fade also doesn't sing to the spirits.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Darius Vir wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


They don't know where the Old Gods are. They just make sure to have Wardens in every nation.

TEWR, I'm pretty sure that the Wardens do know the locations.  I wish I had a copy of The Calling, which I think is where we first hear of this.  

Also, I recall DG confirming on the boards (probably on the Origins boards awhile back) that this was indeed accurate.

Yes, in the book "The Calling" Bergan who was a warden commander from Orlais does know the locations of the Arch Demons.  I believe that the First Warden also knows where the Arch Demons are.  They can't get to them because they are too deep underground.  I got the impression the Arch Demons are under the deep roads.  I'm guessing this is the reason that the First Warden sent Nathaniel on the expeditition into the deep roads to follow where Hawke and party went.  So, I'm guessing the primal thaig has something to do with this. 

I got the impression from the first game that Arch demon blood was necessary to the forumla for the joining.  So has DG changed his mind again on something and they are going in a different direction.  If I'm not mistaken Riordan said you had to have the blood of Arch Demon and also the blood of other darkspawn and lyrium.  Loghain and Howe stole it from the Grey Warden compound in Denerim when they took the compound over aka Howe's thugs.  The warden gets the combination to unlock the vault from Riordan.

I have never made Loghain a warden so I do don't know how Riordan made Loghain a Warden without it.  Alistair claimed he didn't know how to prepare the joining.  I also never understood how Varel was able to prepare the joining and him not be a mage or a warden.  For me it would have made more sense for my Warden as the commander to mix it up.  This is what Duncan did at Ostagar and he was the Warden Commander of Ferelden at the time of our warden's joining.  I found it interesting on the potion of purity in the second game and the ingredients involved.

There has always been speculation on this since the first game.  They have never explained how the original wardens discovered the joining ritual.  I think alot of players suspect the information from blood cultists and I guess many could claim the Wardens are a dragon blood cult which has been brought up in another thread.

Forgive me if some of this has been mentioned I haven't read this whole thread. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 09 septembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think the Lyrium's singing and the Song of the Old Gods is the same thing or all that related. We do know that the Archdemons so have a song because Tamlen could hear it, and the Architect's research subjects did too. But the song that Justice listens to from the lyrium ring seems to be harmless, and only audible to fade spirits.

Ok, let me put it this way. There is Joe - he absolutely obsesses over a piece of rock music. He listens to it day and night, he attends all the live concerts, he always wears his only one shirt, that the Oh! God of Rock!, happened to touch in that concert. He didn't bathe for a full month after that concert. He went without food for 2 days when his parents didn't give him enough money to get that album - putting his health gravely at risk. Lately his grades at school have started to drop. His parents and friends are clearly worried...

And then there is Jessica - she loves the same piece of music. Whenever she finds time she listens to it. It is her favorite, all time great. She really wishes to do her homework quickly enough today so that she can get to hear that song again, later in the evening. Ah, the agony of the wait...

Clearly I referred to the same piece of music, but two very different (obsessive?) effects it has on two very different individuals. There is nothing inherently good/bad, harmful/harmless in that music itself.

So there is no error in logic to think that one song could be doing different things to different individuals/entities in DA also. Now, whether you believe the two songs to be the same or not, or even that they are the same or not - these are very different, at at the moment, very much contentious.

Still, carrying this further, some evil marketing genius somehow figured out a way to alter people's minds so that there are more of Joes and less of Jessicas in this world. He wanted to make a huge pile of money. Which is how I envision the darkspawn themselves to be - engineered to be obsessed by the song to the power of N, by some evil genius.

I'm not sure I quite understand your analogy. In your example the different reactions are caused by individuals being different. The song of the Old Gods and the song of lyrium have maintain the same effects on people and stem from totally different sources and mediums. But even assuming that Joe is supposed to represent all darkspawna dn Jessica is suppsoed to represent all dwarves I don't think that's the case either. The darkspawn aren't obsessed with lyrium or drawn to it like they are the Old Gods. And dwarves are affected differently hearing the two songs, so I have to doubt they are supposed to be the same music, the same dwarf who hears the song of lyrium without being adversly affected would still be driven mad by listening to the song of the Archdemons.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 septembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Darius Vir wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think you're misinterpreting two terms here - "Old Gods" and "Archdemons." They are not the same. Archdemons are supposed to be awakened and corrupted Old Gods. As far as I could understand it, what the Grey Wardens can hear is the call of the Archdemon, at least early on in their lives before they are overtaken by the corruption (and perhaps becoming mere ghouls). Only about 30 years later, after the Joining, it is that they start hearing "The Call of the Old Gods" that darkspawn always hear, and are always driven by before they find them. That is when the Grey Wardens know they'll succumb to the corruption, at which time they'd lose their sanity and will probably die. That's when they go for their "heroic death fighting darkspawn" in the Deep Roads.

EDIT: Correcting the wording.

You're right, I should have been more precise concerning what I was designated. 

It's interesting.  Alistair tells the PC, when talking specifically about the Archdemon (by definition an awakened and tainted Old God) Urthemiel, that some of the older Grey Wardens can understand a bit of...something, either the Archdemon while awakened or the Old Gods' call. 

Which is weird, because Urthemiel hadn't been awakened long at all.  I don't know if he was talking lore, as in stories about Grey Wardens of generations past, or some of the Grey Wardens he'd met and must have died at Ostagar.  Might be reading too much into it.

Either way, I'd never actually given much thought to the distinction between the two "calls".  I wonder what happened in, say, the Second Blight.  It lasted 90 years, so multiple generations where there is an Archdemon up and running while several Old Gods are still imprisoned and have a call of their own.

Edit:  A random question that might just be gameplay related.  You know how the PC views the Archdemon during the Joining, and then the PC and Alistair dream or "view" Urthemiel later on?  Just where the hell was the Archdemon supposed to be when they saw it?  I guess both dream and vision could be some type of metaphysical entity, but it sure wasn't depicted as underground in the Deep Roads, which is where you physically view it at one point. 

I know that I'm late to the party here, but how can it be there are two songs?  Just because the Old Gods don't turn into an Arch demon until they are awakened and tainted by darkspawn.  I've always had the impression from the game there is only one song and one calling, they are the same.  Why does this make a difference weather they are still the old gods or the tainted Arch Demon?  Can both of you or someone else try to explain this another way?

I do recall the conversation with Alistair and I got the impression he said that the wardens (from Ostagar), that they could understand the Arch demon.  Alistair has only been a warden for six months longer than the PC.  What he meant I'm not sure, but I took this conversation to mean the older wardens at Ostagar could understand what the Arch demon was saying to the horde.  Riordan also makes the strange statement when returing to Redcliffe that he got close enough to the horde to understand their planned battle strategy - he understood their communication and the Arch Demon was marching on Denerim.  In the dlc DC it seemed that the Arch Demon could actually talk even though it had a rapsy voice and you could faintly understand what it was saying when giving instructions to your darkspawn character.  So I conclude that the older a warden gets and the closer he gets to his calling a warden is being instructed to go to the deep roads through the taint.  So someone has to have control over the darkspawn when an Arch Demon isn't awake to direct them in their search for an old god.  I'm going to assume it's the old god themselves before becoming an Arch Demon.  The old gods must be dreamers like Corypheus. 

As for the lyrium and it singing, what if the old gods are imprisoned under the deep roads in lyrium wells and this is how the darkspawn are able to find the Arch Demon.  This would be my guess.

 

[Jugo616]

Oh yeah, just go and kill Old Gods!
Well... One does not simply walk into Mordor.

[Patchwork]

I know that I'm late to the party here, but how can it be there are two songs?  Just because the Old Gods don't turn into an Arch demon until they are awakened and tainted by darkspawn.  I've always had the impression from the game there is only one song and one calling, they are the same.  Why does this make a difference weather they are still the old gods or the tainted Arch Demon?  Can both of you or someone else try to explain this another way?

I do recall the conversation with Alistair and I got the impression he said that the wardens (from Ostagar), that they could understand the Arch demon.  Alistair has only been a warden for six months longer than the PC.  What he meant I'm not sure, but I took this conversation to mean the older wardens at Ostagar could understand what the Arch demon was saying to the horde.  Riordan also makes the strange statement when returing to Redcliffe that he got close enough to the horde to understand their planned battle strategy - he understood their communication and the Arch Demon was marching on Denerim.  In the dlc DC it seemed that the Arch Demon could actually talk even though it had a rapsy voice and you could faintly understand what it was saying when giving instructions to your darkspawn character.  So I conclude that the older a warden gets and the closer he gets to his calling a warden is being instructed to go to the deep roads through the taint.  So someone has to have control over the darkspawn when an Arch Demon isn't awake to direct them in their search for an old god.  I'm going to assume it's the old god themselves before becoming an Arch Demon.  The old gods must be dreamers like Corypheus. 

As for the lyrium and it singing, what if the old gods are imprisoned under the deep roads in lyrium wells and this is how the darkspawn are able to find the Arch Demon.  This would be my guess.

 

It's possible the Old Gods don't sing at all, that there is only one song- the lyrium's.

Architect (a tevinter mage with amnesia?) aside the darkspawn haven't shown anything more than animal like instincts dictating their actions.

What happened to send the Old Gods to sleep is a bit ambigious however it seems feasible that the spirit of the Old Gods were captured in lyrium and buried far into the earth by believers of the Maker. The Old Gods inherant magic could amplify the lyrium making it a siren song for the darkspawn. The first darkspawn to reach the lyrium shard holding the spirit transforms into a dragon and thus begins a blight. Which would explain how the Archdemon is able to jump bodies and be "reborn" if slain but a non-warden.

The animal like darkspawn respond to the dominate alpha mind of the Archdemon.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tamlen has also said the Old God sings to him.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm not sure I quite understand your analogy. In your example the different reactions are caused by individuals being different.

Yes. My point was that the song can be the same and how different individuals perceive it can be very very different. I understand the analogy becomes a bit messy if one applies it directly to groups like the dwarves; at least with the dwarves one could argue that the lyrium song could affect different individuals differently, depending on their mental makeup perhaps (like Joe and Jessica). But with darkspawn things change - they are no individuals among them. And it is very reasonable to suppose that the song is affecting all of them in the same manner.

The song of the Old Gods and the song of lyrium have maintain the same effects on people and stem from totally different sources and mediums.

Quite possible. But why are you assuming that the two songs have to be from different sources? I see nothing yet to indicate this to be so. My point is that there is just one song - the song from lyrium itself. That's it.

We don't have anything to back either of our claims, though. At this point we'll have to just wait it out to see which one it turns out to be at the end.

But even assuming that Joe is supposed to represent all darkspawna dn Jessica is suppsoed to represent all dwarves I don't think that's the case either.

I messed it up a bit at the end. Anyway, Joe and Jessica were supposed to represent distinct individuals. That's it. No groups involved. What I intended to point out though is that I think darkspawn are engineered to be compelled by the song of lyrium. In my analogy I was intending something like making clones/copies of whatever it is in Joe that compels him or lures him to the song - which to me is a way in which to think how the darkspawn are made. Well, somewhat.

The darkspawn aren't obsessed with lyrium or drawn to it like they are the Old Gods. And dwarves are affected differently hearing the two songs, so I have to doubt they are supposed to be the same music, the same dwarf who hears the song of lyrium without being adversly affected would still be driven mad by listening to the song of the Archdemons.

Two things: how do you know if the darkspawn aren't actually drawn to lyrium - I mean the pure (blue) variety, the one that's supposed to sing and that is not found on the surface? And as far as I know dwarves (the untainted ones, at any rate) don't hear two songs - just one - the one from lyrium.

The degree to which someone/something gets affected by one song can be different. And the darkspawn and tainted creatures are at the extreme end of it - they are compelled by it. This is my interpretation.

Tamlen has also said the Old God sings to him.

I think there is no reason to attach any great significance to what different individuals say in this regard. The reason for this is that they already have a prior notion about some entities called Old Gods (which in reality may not even exist), even before they become corrupted. This could naturally have an impact on how a person might perceive/think of whatever he/she hears when the corruption starts overwhelming him/her. This is true of Tamlem, and also of Avernus, the Architect, any of the elder Grey Wardens who start succumbing to the taint.

In short, I do not see any compelling case for taking Tamlen's statement to mean that there really is an Old God and that such an entity must be the only thing singing to him.

[MichaelFinnegan]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Yes, in the book "The Calling" Bergan who was a warden commander from Orlais does know the locations of the Arch Demons.  I believe that the First Warden also knows where the Arch Demons are.  They can't get to them because they are too deep underground.  I got the impression the Arch Demons are under the deep roads.  I'm guessing this is the reason that the First Warden sent Nathaniel on the expeditition into the deep roads to follow where Hawke and party went.  So, I'm guessing the primal thaig has something to do with this.

Wait. So you're saying that Grey Wardens know where the Archdemons are located, and David Gaider has confirmed this (I'd really like a link to what he really said though).

But you are confusing two things - Old Gods and Archdemons. Again, let me point out they are not exactly the same. An Archdemon comes to be when an Old God is already found (and tainted) by the darkspawn. This actually doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, at least in comparison.

So the question really becomes: do the Grey Wardens know where the Old God's souls (whatever they are) are trapped? I don't think so. This is what the Etherial Writer Redux was pointing at. Even Riorden says something like this, doesn't he? That the darkspawn keep digging and tunelling to get at them, and it seems by pure chance alone that they find the Old Gods at all, even after centuries of being at it.

There has always been speculation on this since the first game.  They have never explained how the original wardens discovered the joining ritual.  I think alot of players suspect the information from blood cultists and I guess many could claim the Wardens are a dragon blood cult which has been brought up in another thread.

Forgive me if some of this has been mentioned I haven't read this whole thread.

With the  Grey Wardens anything is supposed to be acceptable as long as they stop the blight. So yes they could have learnt the trick from blood (dragon?) cultists. Who knows? At any rate, there was a period of 100 years from the time when the Grey Warden order was formed to the time when they successfully slayed the first Archdemon. So at least a few people could have been scratching their heads for a long time - just as the dwarves must have been before Caridin gave them some respite. In my interpretation at least the Joining ritual could have been discovered much later. As to the how - trial and error, with a focused objective, perhaps? I get the feeling that we might discover this part at least in later games.

[MichaelFinnegan]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I know that I'm late to the party here, but how can it be there are two songs?  Just because the Old Gods don't turn into an Arch demon until they are awakened and tainted by darkspawn.

No, not two "songs." Two "calls."

I've always had the impression from the game there is only one song and one calling, they are the same.  Why does this make a difference weather they are still the old gods or the tainted Arch Demon?  Can both of you or someone else try to explain this another way?

My own guess is prior to the Archdemon's awakening, the call is in the form of a song, as far as I understand it. This song compels the darkspawn and any tainted creatures to look for something - which appears to be a trapped Old God's soul.

Then, post awakening, the Archdemon takes over the horde. The "call" now, as I believe, comes from the Archdemon itself. The purpose now has become the blight. To assault the surface.

The message being delivered to the darkspawn is different in each case. They're not the same. Though, as far as I'm concerned, it's not clear whether the darkspawn keep hearing the song above and beyond what the Archdemon instructs. Or whether they hear the Archdemon sing, in which case both the messages could be in the form of songs. But somehow I doubt it.

I do recall the conversation with Alistair and I got the impression he said that the wardens (from Ostagar), that they could understand the Arch demon.  Alistair has only been a warden for six months longer than the PC.  What he meant I'm not sure, but I took this conversation to mean the older wardens at Ostagar could understand what the Arch demon was saying to the horde.  Riordan also makes the strange statement when returing to Redcliffe that he got close enough to the horde to understand their planned battle strategy - he understood their communication and the Arch Demon was marching on Denerim.  In the dlc DC it seemed that the Arch Demon could actually talk even though it had a rapsy voice and you could faintly understand what it was saying when giving instructions to your darkspawn character.  So I conclude that the older a warden gets and the closer he gets to his calling a warden is being instructed to go to the deep roads through the taint.  So someone has to have control over the darkspawn when an Arch Demon isn't awake to direct them in their search for an old god.  I'm going to assume it's the old god themselves before becoming an Arch Demon.  The old gods must be dreamers like Corypheus.

Yes, that is quite possible. As a Grey Warden starts becoming corrupted later on in life, I expect him/her to behave no differently than, say, any average ghoul. And depending on "when" he/she succumbs, the behavior might be very different - either seek out the Old Gods or join the Archdemon in battle.

As for the lyrium and it singing, what if the old gods are imprisoned under the deep roads in lyrium wells and this is how the darkspawn are able to find the Arch Demon.  This would be my guess.

Yes, in any case, that is how they seem to find the "Old Gods." I think one of the biggest clues is that souls, in general, can be trapped within lyrium itself, as we see with golems, Amgeforn, etc. So it is that I thought imprisioning the Old Gods this way should be nothing "special" in and of itself.

EDIT: Formatting fixes.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Morroian]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Wait. So you're saying that Grey Wardens know where the Archdemons are located, and David Gaider has confirmed this (I'd really like a link to what he really said though).

But you are confusing two things - Old Gods and Archdemons. Again, let me point out they are not exactly the same. An Archdemon comes to be when an Old God is already found (and tainted) by the darkspawn. This actually doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, at least in comparison.

So the question really becomes: do the Grey Wardens know where the Old God's souls (whatever they are) are trapped? I don't think so. 

Based on what was written in The Calling I think they do somehow, the inference was definitely that they knew where the remaining Old Gods were. It was the reason for going after Brega IIRC.

[Stoomkal]

Look, I hate to do this...

DG's book "the Calling" is *not* canon. At least, not to the "DA Franchise" - which is a group that includes him, but he does not lead. He is a contributor.

Why do I say this? Because DG's books are *filled* with inconsistencies and events that have already been completely retconned by the actual design team.

Like what?

Like "the Architect". There are two versions. The one from the Calling is really a different character, from which the Awakening version was *based on*.

DG's books were simply regarded by the DA Franchise as a "working template" and therefore...

It would be silly of us to treat it as something more than fan-fiction, because the *actual* decision makers may *at any time* decide that the infromation contained within "does not count".

And once it does, who can say what is "really real" within the Calling, and what isn't. You cannot now say "they changed that bit... but the rest of it is real deal canon!"

It does not work that way.

Sadly, DG's books were treated as 2nd tier importance, and have already been contradicted by the main team, rendering the information unreliable... at best!

Sorry to do this...

[MichaelFinnegan]

Ser Bard wrote...

It's possible the Old Gods don't sing at all, that there is only one song- the lyrium's.

Architect (a tevinter mage with amnesia?) aside the darkspawn haven't shown anything more than animal like instincts dictating their actions.

What happened to send the Old Gods to sleep is a bit ambigious however it seems feasible that the spirit of the Old Gods were captured in lyrium and buried far into the earth by believers of the Maker. The Old Gods inherant magic could amplify the lyrium making it a siren song for the darkspawn. The first darkspawn to reach the lyrium shard holding the spirit transforms into a dragon and thus begins a blight. Which would explain how the Archdemon is able to jump bodies and be "reborn" if slain but a non-warden.

The animal like darkspawn respond to the dominate alpha mind of the Archdemon.

Yes, as I see it they stop responding to the song, and start following the Archdemon's instructions. Which is kind of curious, if we think of it merely as only lyrium being able to sing.

Justice, and perhaps other spirits of the Fade, can hear pure lyrium sing, when he is in the mortal realm, but not when he was in the Fade. Dwarves hear it also. And the darkspawn can probably hear the same lyrium sing. If these are effects of reacting to pure lyrium, I wonder why it is the case. Ought we to conclude that the darkspawn have some quality that they have in common with dwarves and spirits like Justice? Although Justice and dwarves don't seem as obsessed with the song as the darkspawn.