93 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

Morroian wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Wait. So you're saying that Grey Wardens know where the Archdemons are located, and David Gaider has confirmed this (I'd really like a link to what he really said though).

But you are confusing two things - Old Gods and Archdemons. Again, let me point out they are not exactly the same. An Archdemon comes to be when an Old God is already found (and tainted) by the darkspawn. This actually doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, at least in comparison.

So the question really becomes: do the Grey Wardens know where the Old God's souls (whatever they are) are trapped? I don't think so. 

Based on what was written in The Calling I think they do somehow, the inference was definitely that they knew where the remaining Old Gods were. It was the reason for going after Brega IIRC.

I suppose one has to acknowledge that possibility. Although a minor correction - it is perhaps suggested the Grey Wardens who go on their Calling (not all Grey Wardens) who know where the old gods are, just as, say, the darkspawn know. I'm sure every darkspawn knows where the old gods are buried, yet they search for centuries for them. And perhaps the other Grey Wardens merely know where the awakened Archdemon is, while it is still walking about, that is. The only certain thing I suppose is there are still a lot of maybe's and could be's....

[Monica21]

 [quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote... The song of the Old Gods and the song of lyrium have maintain the same effects on people and stem from totally different sources and mediums.[/quote]Quite possible. But why are you assuming that the two songs have to be from different sources? I see nothing yet to indicate this to be so. My point is that there is just one song - the song from lyrium itself. That's it.[/quote]I assume it if only because the dwarven digging leads to lyrium veins and the darkspawn digging leads to an Old God. It's possible that the song is lesser or changed if it's a lyrium vein, but the lyrium would have to be something that extrudes and grows from the Old God. If it grows, it changes.

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...Wait. So you're saying that Grey Wardens know where the Archdemons are located, and David Gaider has confirmed this (I'd really like a link to what he really said though).[/quote]Yes, Gaider wrote that the Grey Wardens know the locations of the Archdemons. If I had the book handy I'd find the quote for you. 

[quote]So the question really becomes: do the Grey Wardens know where the Old God's souls (whatever they are) are trapped? I don't think so. This is what the Etherial Writer Redux was pointing at. Even Riorden says something like this, doesn't he? That the darkspawn keep digging and tunelling to get at them, and it seems by pure chance alone that they find the Old Gods at all, even after centuries of being at it.[/quote]There is no impression given in The Calling of the darkspawn finding the Old God by chance. In fact, the digging itself is quite organized. It is a very deliberate effort. Yes, it's a bit more hot/cold than having a GPS location, but they find it because they follow the song.

[quote]Stoomkal wrote...DG's book "the Calling" is *not* canon. At least, not to the "DA Franchise" - which is a group that includes him, but he does not lead. He is a contributor.
Why do I say this? Because DG's books are *filled* with inconsistencies and events that have already been completely retconned by the actual design team.
Like what? Like "the Architect". There are two versions. The one from the Calling is really a different character, from which the Awakening version was *based on*.
DG's books were simply regarded by the DA Franchise as a "working template" and therefore it would be silly of us to treat it as something more than fan-fiction, because the *actual* decision makers may *at any time* decide that the infromation contained within "does not count".[/quote]How is the Awakening Architect different? He had the same goals and he had Utha. And until the decision makers decide to change that the Grey Wardens do know where the Old Gods are located, then it's very premature to assume that they don't, wouldn't you say?

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...Yes, as I see it they stop responding to the song, and start following the Archdemon's instructions. Which is kind of curious, if we think of it merely as only lyrium being able to sing.[/quote]I'm not sure that there is a song from an awakened and corrupted Old God. I can't remember exactly what Tamlen says about the song or when he says it, but is it possible he is hearing a different Old God? Everything we know about Archdemons is that it talks. Alistair tells you that in camp. Granted, his knowledge is somewhat limited but it's something he would have learned from the other Wardens.

Modifié par Monica21, 11 septembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
How is the Awakening Architect different? He had the same goals and he had Utha. And until the decision makers decide to change that the Grey Wardens do know where the Old Gods are located, then it's very premature to assume that they don't, wouldn't you say?

I haven't gotten around to playing Awakening yet, but the wiki mentions that the Architect doesn't actually mention anything about his genocidal plan to spread the taint to everyone in Awakenings. Also in Awakening he still has both hands.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
How is the Awakening Architect different? He had the same goals and he had Utha. And until the decision makers decide to change that the Grey Wardens do know where the Old Gods are located, then it's very premature to assume that they don't, wouldn't you say?

I haven't gotten around to playing Awakening yet, but the wiki mentions that the Architect doesn't actually mention anything about his genocidal plan to spread the taint to everyone in Awakenings. Also in Awakening he still has both hands.

Been awhile since I've played Awakening, but what does he tell you in your final discussion before you can decide to kill him? I thought he was telling you his plan, or something of it, and offering to help you kill the Mother so he could continue. And he's a really old emissary. Maybe he can regrow hands. I don't think that's evidence that The Calling is not canon.

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
Been awhile since I've played Awakening, but what does he tell you in your final discussion before you can decide to kill him? I thought he was telling you his plan, or something of it, and offering to help you kill the Mother so he could continue. And he's a really old emissary. Maybe he can regrow hands. I don't think that's evidence that The Calling is not canon.

Truth be told I was just bouncing ideas from what I gleaned from the wiki, sadly I haven't had the chance to play Awakening yet

Still, for the time being I reckon that book would still be canon but I wouldn't put *too* much stock by it. I'm a big fan of Warhammer and a lot of the novels in that which were once considered canon were made redundant through retconning. Obv Dragon Age is still quite new but I would still put stock by what's in the games rather than the books.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The song of the Old Gods and the song of lyrium have maintain the same effects on people and stem from totally different sources and mediums.

Quite possible. But why are you assuming that the two songs have to be from different sources? I see nothing yet to indicate this to be so. My point is that there is just one song - the song from lyrium itself. That's it.

I assume it if only because the dwarven digging leads to lyrium veins and the darkspawn digging leads to an Old God. It's possible that the song is lesser or changed if it's a lyrium vein, but the lyrium would have to be something that extrudes and grows from the Old God. If it grows, it changes.

When more than one set of noses might be pointed in the same direction.

And I think it works by pure chance. This is what I think happens: the darkspawn chase down whatever lyrium veins they find in the earth. I know this involves a lot of digging, but that's what their numbers and the 2 to 4 centuries of digging are for. As to how they know which section of lyrium vein network the old gods might be trapped in and whether they're not running around in circles - I simply don't know at the moment. There does appear to be a method to this madness. Or maybe it is pure randomness.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Wait. So you're saying that Grey Wardens know where the Archdemons are located, and David Gaider has confirmed this (I'd really like a link to what he really said though).

Yes, Gaider wrote that the Grey Wardens know the locations of the Archdemons. If I had the book handy I'd find the quote for you.

A quote would have been very handy, yes. I say this because there might be misinterpretations since I still think it's a mistake to think of archdemons synonymously with old gods, at least in the context of the Grey Wardens knowing where they are located.

There is no impression given in The Calling of the darkspawn finding the Old God by chance. In fact, the digging itself is quite organized. It is a very deliberate effort. Yes, it's a bit more hot/cold than having a GPS location, but they find it because they follow the song.

Riorden says:
Warden: Why has it been so long since the last Blight?
Riordan: Archdemons don't awaken on their own, you know. It takes the darkspawn, tunneling and tunneling, searching for centuries to find one. And with no one to lead them, it must be sheer chance, or maybe instinct which leads them. What's surprising isn't that it takes so long between Blights; what's surprising is that they succeed at all. But I imagine the old gods call to them, and it's that voice in the darkness which drives them through so many generations.

What the song itself is, is worthy of debate, but I believe it's just the lyrium song, and the old gods souls are trapped in lyrium.

How is the Awakening Architect different? He had the same goals and he had Utha. And until the decision makers decide to change that the Grey Wardens do know where the Old Gods are located, then it's very premature to assume that they don't, wouldn't you say?

If we assume the Grey Wardens do know where the old gods are located, why don't they act on it? If they do know, how do they know - via the song, via something else? If it is via the song, where is the evidence that they can hear it before falling prey to the taint? If they do know, is it exactly the same way as darkspawn know? If the latter is true, then how come Riorden thinks the darkspawn finding the old gods must be by sheer chance? He is a Grey Warden, after all.

Of course, some of the Grey Wardens might know exactly where the old gods are buried, and it is possible that Riordan doesn't mention it or even that he may not be privy to that information. But that'd mean either that they can't do anything with that knowledge (knowing how much digging is involved), or that they're hiding something, or it is something else entirely.

I can't remember exactly what Tamlen says about the song or when he says it, but is it possible he is hearing a different Old God? Everything we know about Archdemons is that it talks. Alistair tells you that in camp. Granted, his knowledge is somewhat limited but it's something he would have learned from the other Wardens.

I, too, don't remember what Tamlen says or when he says it.

Look at what's written in the Architect's notes:
"What happens if the old gods perish? Does the song die with them?"

It is a question we should be asking of ourselves also: whether we should really link the old gods and the song, or whether we simply assume that they must be linked. And this especially considering that the notions of "old gods" and "the song" are vague as they seemingly are in the people's minds in the DA universe.

If we assume that the song doesn't originate from the old gods, then it'd be logical to conclude that all tainted creatrures keep hearing both the things - the song and the Archdemon's commmands - at the same time. It might just be that one of them, perhaps the Archdemon's commands, crowds out the other perhaps depending on the extent of the corruption.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Monica21]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
A quote would have been very handy, yes. I say this because there might be misinterpretations since I still think it's a mistake to think of archdemons synonymously with old gods, at least in the context of the Grey Wardens knowing where they are located.

I still don't have a book quote for you, but I have a Gaider confirmation: http://bit.ly/qFeTOJ

Modifié par Monica21, 15 septembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
A quote would have been very handy, yes. I say this because there might be misinterpretations since I still think it's a mistake to think of archdemons synonymously with old gods, at least in the context of the Grey Wardens knowing where they are located.

I still don't have a book quote for you, but I have a Gaider confirmation: http://bit.ly/qFeTOJ

You were right, then. It's actually the locations of the Old Gods themselves that at least some of the Grey Wardens know about.

Interestingly, looking at what Gaider agreed with, I think this may not be through the song of the Old Gods, or whatever, and not all Grey Wardens know about it. And also it looks like this'll be part of some story in the future.

[Prince_12]

Monica21 wrote...
There was some interesting discussion about it on the Origins forum awhile ago, basically asking how the Wardens figured out that Archdemon blood or darkspawn blood could help them. From what I remember, the consensus generally formed around the popularity of dragon cults at the time, since the Archdemon appears in the form of a dragon.

I think that these first Grey Wardens only accidentally realized the effects of drinking the Archdemon's blood. They may have tried to drink it to gain some of its power, but instead realized they were part of the hive mind of the rest of the darkspawn, which I suppose is power in and of itself, but likely different from what they were seeking. 

What we do know, is that the Blight lasted 90 years before the Wardens were established, and it was only after they were established that they began winning battles against the darkspawn.

I think it's most likely this. Many sciences and just normal people discover things by accident. Like different medicine and stuff.

[Monica21]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
You were right, then. It's actually the locations of the Old Gods themselves that at least some of the Grey Wardens know about.

Interestingly, looking at what Gaider agreed with, I think this may not be through the song of the Old Gods, or whatever, and not all Grey Wardens know about it. And also it looks like this'll be part of some story in the future.

If you read The Calling, it's very clear that the song of the Old Gods are what the darkspawn are following. 

And no, not all Grey Wardens know the locations, but somehow, a select few of them do.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The answer is obviously Flemeth.

It's always Flemeth.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
You were right, then. It's actually the locations of the Old Gods themselves that at least some of the Grey Wardens know about.

Interestingly, looking at what Gaider agreed with, I think this may not be through the song of the Old Gods, or whatever, and not all Grey Wardens know about it. And also it looks like this'll be part of some story in the future.

If you read The Calling, it's very clear that the song of the Old Gods are what the darkspawn are following.

How so? You've provided evidence that some of the Grey Wardens know where the Old Gods (again nothing is known what these things are or even that they sing by themselves) are buried (and nothing is known about how the Grey Wardens came by this information), and so I conceded. Beyond that there is nothing conclusive about what the darkspawn actually hear. I believe the Architect's notes from Awakening is supposed to induce precisely such a doubt in the mind of the reader.

But I'll admit that I should read The Calling so that I am better informed to debate this.

[Monica21]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
How so? You've provided evidence that some of the Grey Wardens know where the Old Gods (again nothing is known what these things are or even that they sing by themselves) are buried (and nothing is known about how the Grey Wardens came by this information), and so I conceded. Beyond that there is nothing conclusive about what the darkspawn actually hear. I believe the Architect's notes from Awakening is supposed to induce precisely such a doubt in the mind of the reader.

But I'll admit that I should read The Calling so that I am better informed to debate this.

Well, after the Wardens are captured (spoiler!) that's pretty much what you learn. It's referenced several times, the Architect is not alone, and you can easily infer that the darkspawn he's surrounded by dig up the Old God who starts the Fifth Blight.

Modifié par Monica21, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:57 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

Well, after the Wardens are captured (spoiler!) that's pretty much what you learn. It's referenced several times, the Architect is not alone, and you can easily infer that the darkspawn he's surrounded by dig up the Old God who starts the Fifth Blight.

Being referenced several times isn't proof. Gaider himself has said,
"the darkspawn are compelled to be what they are by a force that is not well-understood."

I'm inclined to go with this level of uncertainty for now - that what the darkspawn are and why they do things that they do isn't well understood. People may notice and ascribe certain rationality to what they do, but that doesn't mean that they'd know for certain. I'm not disputing your claim; I'm just saying that it isn't as certain as you're implying it to be.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Stoomkal wrote...

Look, I hate to do this...

DG's book "the Calling" is *not* canon. At least, not to the "DA Franchise" - which is a group that includes him, but he does not lead. He is a contributor.

Why do I say this? Because DG's books are *filled* with inconsistencies and events that have already been completely retconned by the actual design team.

Like what?

Like "the Architect". There are two versions. The one from the Calling is really a different character, from which the Awakening version was *based on*.

DG's books were simply regarded by the DA Franchise as a "working template" and therefore...

It would be silly of us to treat it as something more than fan-fiction, because the *actual* decision makers may *at any time* decide that the infromation contained within "does not count".

And once it does, who can say what is "really real" within the Calling, and what isn't. You cannot now say "they changed that bit... but the rest of it is real deal canon!"

It does not work that way.

Sadly, DG's books were treated as 2nd tier importance, and have already been contradicted by the main team, rendering the information unreliable... at best!

Sorry to do this...

Hmmm, I seem to recall that the developers and Gaider both encouraged players to read the books before DAO even came out.  The books set-up the world state and provide loads of lore and ingame history, so do the offical walkthroughs.  The books also provide a large part of the lore.  No the books won't ever determine a players choices within the games,  Mr. Gaider said this. The books just set the setting for the first game and the third book due out will set the stage so-to-speak for the third game and it seems the story driven dlc's as well. 

Therefore I do believe that the lore and the world setting from the books does apply where the games are concerned.  The books just don't determine a players choices. 

Within the books we are first introduced to all the characters relevant to the history of Thedas, especially Ferelden and even Orlais.   The kingdoms, the families, the history of the: humans, elves, dwarves, the religions, the timeline of events, births, deaths to name a few.  The list goes on and on.  So the books do play a role in the game lore.   I use the information from the books.  As far as I'm concerned the books are relevant.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Monica21]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Well, after the Wardens are captured (spoiler!) that's pretty much what you learn. It's referenced several times, the Architect is not alone, and you can easily infer that the darkspawn he's surrounded by dig up the Old God who starts the Fifth Blight.

Being referenced several times isn't proof. Gaider himself has said,
"the darkspawn are compelled to be what they are by a force that is not well-understood."

I'm inclined to go with this level of uncertainty for now - that what the darkspawn are and why they do things that they do isn't well understood. People may notice and ascribe certain rationality to what they do, but that doesn't mean that they'd know for certain. I'm not disputing your claim; I'm just saying that it isn't as certain as you're implying it to be.

Well, if that's your inclination then that's fine; I'm simply telling you what happens in the book that you haven't read. I can't really do more than that.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Well, after the Wardens are captured (spoiler!) that's pretty much what you learn. It's referenced several times, the Architect is not alone, and you can easily infer that the darkspawn he's surrounded by dig up the Old God who starts the Fifth Blight.

Being referenced several times isn't proof. Gaider himself has said,
"the darkspawn are compelled to be what they are by a force that is not well-understood."

I'm inclined to go with this level of uncertainty for now - that what the darkspawn are and why they do things that they do isn't well understood. People may notice and ascribe certain rationality to what they do, but that doesn't mean that they'd know for certain. I'm not disputing your claim; I'm just saying that it isn't as certain as you're implying it to be.

Well, if that's your inclination then that's fine; I'm simply telling you what happens in the book that you haven't read. I can't really do more than that.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I'm rather glad that you're giving me all this information.

But what you're saying is this: "If you read The Calling, it's very clear that the song of the Old Gods are what the darkspawn are following." I haven't seen anything in what you typed since to believe that the darkspawn are following the song that is originating from the Old Gods.

And as I wrote a few posts above, the Architect is mulling over this very question in Awakening, which happens after the events of The Calling, if I'm not mistaken: "What happens if the Old Gods perish? Does the song die with them?" He doesn't say "their" song, but "the" song; unless the Wiki got the wording wrong...

There are reasonable doubts to suspect your claim. That's what I'm saying.

[Monica21]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I'm rather glad that you're giving me all this information.

But what you're saying is this: "If you read The Calling, it's very clear that the song of the Old Gods are what the darkspawn are following." I haven't seen anything in what you typed since to believe that the darkspawn are following the song that is originating from the Old Gods.

And as I wrote a few posts above, the Architect is mulling over this very question in Awakening, which happens after the events of The Calling, if I'm not mistaken: "What happens if the Old Gods perish? Does the song die with them?" He doesn't say "their" song, but "the" song; unless the Wiki got the wording wrong...

There are reasonable doubts to suspect your claim. That's what I'm saying.

I don't think you intend disrespect, but I think you are arguing without full knowledge. You haven't read The Calling so to you, it isn't established lore. Except that it is established lore. It's not my claim to make. The darkspawn follow the song and dig until they find an Old God.

And the Architect is insane. His grand plan to stop the Blight is to just infect everyone. I'm not terribly concerned with his idle musings because he's, well, insane. That said, when I read "the song" I read "the song of the Old Gods."

[MichaelFinnegan]

Monica21 wrote...

I think you are arguing without full knowledge. You haven't read The Calling so to you, it isn't established lore.

A fair enough criticism.

And the Architect is insane. His grand plan to stop the Blight is to just infect everyone. I'm not terribly concerned with his idle musings because he's, well, insane.

One observation. Although his methods to go about it might appear to be insane, his end goal isn't necessarily insane (at least depending on how you look at it). From what I understood from the Wiki, his plan was this (CAUTION: Big spoiler for anyone reading further!):
1. To destroy the Old Gods or Archdemons so that all darkspawn are cut off from the influence of the song;
2. Introducing the darkspawn taint to everyone else so that humans (elves, dwarves, etc also?) and darkspawn can co-exist. And he was willing to accept any humans dying of the taint as collateral damage, even though the numbers would have been huge.

In this context, his musings weren't so idle, I'd think. For instance, what if he did destroy the Old Gods and still the darkspwan kept hearing the song and acting as they were? What would he do then?

And, to us (as humans, whom most of us would naturally sympathize within the game) that is a horrendous plan, but to the darkspwan and to the Architect himself, it could be a very acceptable thing. One of the big things in the games to come, I'd think, would be to decide the fate of the darkspawn.

That said, when I read "the song" I read "the song of the Old Gods.

Again, it's your judgment to make. I can respect that.