390 réponses à ce sujet

[Kyria Nyriese]

blacqout wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

Now tell me why you think that because I voted for red Shepard, I am prejudiced against blondes? Refer to my opening, I am a blonde.

I never said that everybody that voted for a non-blonde option did so because they are anti-blonde.

I said that the vote came about because of the misogynistic whining of the few, ruining it for the many that were absolutely happy with the results of the first round of voting.

I am pleased that you were able to take part in the second round of voting, but for whatever reason i wasn't. The fact that about half as many votes were cast in the second round suggests that rather a lot of people, like me, didn't know about it.

It's logical to conclude that those that continued to follow this story after its initial conclusion (the crowning of blonde Shepard) are the ones that weren't totally happy.

This is reflected in the voting. It's a skewed result and completely unfair.

But in that statement alone you are saying that.  You are saying that there is no way that the 31579 people who voted for Shepard #5 could have been allowed/known about the 2nd poll because only 5470 of them voted for blonde Shepard.  Let me see here, 31579 people voted for Shepard #5 in round one - 19728 voted for Red Shep #5, 12921 voted for Black haired Shep # 5, 5600 voted for Brunette Shep #5 and 5470 for Blonde Shep #5, where do you get the numbers that less people voted on the colors, 43719 people voted, that is more than voted for the original Shepard #5 which was 31579.  That means that a portion of the 73008 people who voted in the first round voted in the second and more than originally voted for Shepard #5.  So stating that the people who voted for Shepard #5 in the first poll weren't represented in the second is about as... heck I don't know what.  More people voted in the second poll representing more than voted for the actual first choice, showing to me that some of the people who voted for other ones in the first poll were interested in Shepard #5 and just didn't want the blonde hair color.  It has nothing to do with prejudices against blondes, it has to do with personal preference.  

To put this in strict math terms 43.25% voted for Shepard #5 and 45.12% voted for red head Shep.  Again tell me how these numbers are off.  I want you to go through the numbers, I pulled these directly from the votes themselves.  Numbers don't lie.  The percentage of voters who chose red over blonde was higher than the percentage of Shepard #5 to the others in the first poll.  Your logic is flawed, your numbers while technically correct are not an accurate representation of the vote as they are comparing the number of voters in the first poll to the number in the second poll and when directly represented in percentages, which is the only way you can compare the two, the red head won.

[The Baconer]

"Why did they change her hair from blonde to red?"

It was all a ploy, orchestrated by me, you see. Many tears were collected from both sides of the debate. They are my sustenance.

[jojon2se]

LPPrince wrote...

I was curious how many people preferred 5 with a different hair color because they believe the blonde stereotypes but just didn't state it as such.

None, I expect.

David did no doubt think up this whole social network voting thing with the best of intentions: Give the fans a sense of participation.

Unfortunately his background trinity: Male, Entertainment industry and Advertising; led to something that is pretty much the opposite of what made Femshep great to begin with: A strong female lead, with the same unquestioned natural authority and ability as her male counterpart, both because of her own personality and the future societal standards of the Mass Effect universe. What's more: Her age, or looks, or "femininity", or supposed "lack thereof";  was never of great importance - I'd even call her "above" petty things like beauty pageants or public image. Her success was as much a product of Bioware's neglect, as anything else.

When going into character generation for the first two games, there was a preset for the sliders, which was a somewhat "housewife-like" character -- by no means ugly, but at least not one of the usual Hollywood pretty faces, that EVERY other game sports. After two games, that face had, in a small way, become iconic, in its own right -- here was a female character who made a name for herself in a big fancy production, while still being "realistic" in some aspects - she didn't have to be a supermodel, she didn't have to be at her most fertile age -- she eschewed some of the more repressive standards that people (more or less aware) shape themselves around today.

 Come marketing buildup for ME3: "Step aside Plain Jane - we need someone more glamorous" -- that, if anything, has a tinge of slightly semantically shifted misogyny. The use we see in other posts in this thread is intellectual dishonesty, at best and I'm sure the "offence" someone's girlfriend felt over the whole "blonde" thing, comes more from the way it was presented to her, than from the underlying issue.

...it is, of course, also entirely possible that the whole voting thing was intentionally designed to whip up a ****storm, in alignment with the idea that: "no publicity is bad publicity".


I, personally, don't like that the new Sheplette (regardless of which of the nigh-identical options had won - I didn't care one way or other, between them) looks like she could be Sheploo's makeup-obsessed daughter, after being an adult woman thru two games already. (Every argument that I have seen defending this, has been pure aplogism.)

Both Sheploo and Sheplette are designed to fit the "sex sells" mould, for their respective gender, but at least Sheploo was so to begin with and was not "betrayed" two-thirds through the trilogy.


Anyway: What more than anything settles the matter of the results of voting (which I did not partake in), as far as I am concerned, is Jennifer Hale's expressed preferrence for "the freckled one" -- I'll take her veto over any number of facebookers.

[blacqout]

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

Now tell me why you think that because I voted for red Shepard, I am prejudiced against blondes? Refer to my opening, I am a blonde.

I never said that everybody that voted for a non-blonde option did so because they are anti-blonde.

I said that the vote came about because of the misogynistic whining of the few, ruining it for the many that were absolutely happy with the results of the first round of voting.

I am pleased that you were able to take part in the second round of voting, but for whatever reason i wasn't. The fact that about half as many votes were cast in the second round suggests that rather a lot of people, like me, didn't know about it.

It's logical to conclude that those that continued to follow this story after its initial conclusion (the crowning of blonde Shepard) are the ones that weren't totally happy.

This is reflected in the voting. It's a skewed result and completely unfair.

But in that statement alone you are saying that.  You are saying that there is no way that the 31579 people who voted for Shepard #5 could have been allowed/known about the 2nd poll because only 5470 of them voted for blonde Shepard.  Let me see here, 31579 people voted for Shepard #5 in round one - 19728 voted for Red Shep #5, 12921 voted for Black haired Shep # 5, 5600 voted for Brunette Shep #5 and 5470 for Blonde Shep #5, where do you get the numbers that less people voted on the colors, 43719 people voted, that is more than voted for the original Shepard #5 which was 31579.  That means that a portion of the 73008 people who voted in the first round voted in the second and more than originally voted for Shepard #5.  So stating that the people who voted for Shepard #5 in the first poll weren't represented in the second is about as... heck I don't know what.  More people voted in the second poll representing more than voted for the actual first choice, showing to me that some of the people who voted for other ones in the first poll were interested in Shepard #5 and just didn't want the blonde hair color.  It has nothing to do with prejudices against blondes, it has to do with personal preference.  

To put this in strict math terms 43.25% voted for Shepard #5 and 45.12% voted for red head Shep.  Again tell me how these numbers are off.  I want you to go through the numbers, I pulled these directly from the votes themselves.  Numbers don't lie.  The percentage of voters who chose red over blonde was higher than the percentage of Shepard #5 to the others in the first poll.  Your logic is flawed, your numbers while technically correct are not an accurate representation of the vote as they are comparing the number of voters in the first poll to the number in the second poll and when directly represented in percentages, which is the only way you can compare the two, the red head won.

No, looking at this in terms of percentages isn't really that logical, and does nothing to dispel my argument.

Fewer people voted in the second poll and i'm the only person that seems to be wondering why. You're using percentages to hide this discrepancy, not account for it.

And i'm not sure how my statement can be reasonably construed to mean that "everyone who voted non-blonde is prejudiced".

The second vote came around because the misogynistic whining of a vocal minority, allowing people with less evil intentions such as yourself to benefit.

[CuseGirl]

Well, I voted for the FemShep that looked a bit like Janet Jackson circa 1993 (think it was #4).....but I knew it wouldn't win cuz the largest demographic in RPG/shooter games is white male age 18 to 32-ish......in a mass vote, they like blondes. I think the second vote wasn't made accessible to that crowd but because non-blonde lovers wanted someting different so bad, they went out and got wut they wanted, which was a non-blonde.

[CuseGirl]

This is like how the democrats lost so many seats during "mid-term" elections after helping Obama and the Dems win on capitol hill 2 years ago. That particular vote, young unemployed dems didn't come out and vote. In this instance (a much less important vote), those that voted for Blonde #5 didn't come out and support while the angry minority (who were complaining from jump) stayed informed and got wut they wanted......

It could just be a case of the demographic I highlighted in my previous post aren't the type of people to even engage in a second vote, unlike the angry minority who follow game forums more often.

[blacqout]

CuseGirl wrote...

This is like how the democrats lost so many seats during "mid-term" elections after helping Obama and the Dems win on capitol hill 2 years ago. That particular vote, young unemployed dems didn't come out and vote. In this instance (a much less important vote), those that voted for Blonde #5 didn't come out and support while the angry minority (who were complaining from jump) stayed informed and got wut they wanted......

It could just be a case of the demographic I highlighted in my previous post aren't the type of people to even engage in a second vote, unlike the angry minority who follow game forums more often.

I think this is at least partially the case, and a very astute observation.

[Kyria Nyriese]

blacqout wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

Now tell me why you think that because I voted for red Shepard, I am prejudiced against blondes? Refer to my opening, I am a blonde.

I never said that everybody that voted for a non-blonde option did so because they are anti-blonde.

I said that the vote came about because of the misogynistic whining of the few, ruining it for the many that were absolutely happy with the results of the first round of voting.

I am pleased that you were able to take part in the second round of voting, but for whatever reason i wasn't. The fact that about half as many votes were cast in the second round suggests that rather a lot of people, like me, didn't know about it.

It's logical to conclude that those that continued to follow this story after its initial conclusion (the crowning of blonde Shepard) are the ones that weren't totally happy.

This is reflected in the voting. It's a skewed result and completely unfair.

But in that statement alone you are saying that.  You are saying that there is no way that the 31579 people who voted for Shepard #5 could have been allowed/known about the 2nd poll because only 5470 of them voted for blonde Shepard.  Let me see here, 31579 people voted for Shepard #5 in round one - 19728 voted for Red Shep #5, 12921 voted for Black haired Shep # 5, 5600 voted for Brunette Shep #5 and 5470 for Blonde Shep #5, where do you get the numbers that less people voted on the colors, 43719 people voted, that is more than voted for the original Shepard #5 which was 31579.  That means that a portion of the 73008 people who voted in the first round voted in the second and more than originally voted for Shepard #5.  So stating that the people who voted for Shepard #5 in the first poll weren't represented in the second is about as... heck I don't know what.  More people voted in the second poll representing more than voted for the actual first choice, showing to me that some of the people who voted for other ones in the first poll were interested in Shepard #5 and just didn't want the blonde hair color.  It has nothing to do with prejudices against blondes, it has to do with personal preference.  

To put this in strict math terms 43.25% voted for Shepard #5 and 45.12% voted for red head Shep.  Again tell me how these numbers are off.  I want you to go through the numbers, I pulled these directly from the votes themselves.  Numbers don't lie.  The percentage of voters who chose red over blonde was higher than the percentage of Shepard #5 to the others in the first poll.  Your logic is flawed, your numbers while technically correct are not an accurate representation of the vote as they are comparing the number of voters in the first poll to the number in the second poll and when directly represented in percentages, which is the only way you can compare the two, the red head won.

No, looking at this in terms of percentages isn't really that logical, and does nothing to dispel my argument.

Fewer people voted in the second poll and i'm the only person that seems to be wondering why. You're using percentages to hide this discrepancy, not account for it.

And i'm not sure how my statement can be reasonably construed to mean that "everyone who voted non-blonde is prejudiced".

The second vote came around because the misogynistic whining of a vocal minority, allowing people with less evil intentions such as yourself to benefit.

If you want to go that route, then look at the other numbers, they don't lie either.  31579 people voted for Shepard #5, 43719 voted in the second poll, I would think that would be the ones interested in what she ended up looking like.  Of that 43719 voters, 19728, the strong majority of the votes, were for the red head.  Again numbers rule out.  You cannot compare the numbers from the complete first poll (chosing what she looks like overall) to the numbers of the second poll (the hair color).  To quote a friend I was discussing this with - "To use that logic, the millions of people who voted for Obama clearly indicates that FemShep should be a black man."

Numbers are logical, your arguments are not.  While I have no proof that no one voted for red headed Shepard because they don't like blondes and think they are bimbos.  You have no proof either that this was the only reason.  The numbers state that the majority preferred a red headed female Shep with shoulder length hair.  Since I cannot ask each and every person why they voted they way they did, the numbers are the only thing that can speak for the majority.  I think the numbers have spoken for themselves.

[blacqout]

Tchones13 wrote...

Exactly.

"I don't hate blondes" became the new "Hey I'm not a racist, I even have a black friend" sort of bull. Along with percentages. I couldn't care less about either.

Speaking for myself: it's not so much about the result of the second poll. It's how it came to be.

Put your intelligence and all your math equations into that (and your hipocrisy aside), and we'll get somewhere.

That's how i feel too.

It's not cool that this kind of pressure has been allowed to influence the creation process. Hopefully it wont become a repeated thing, because the quality of these games is really going to suffer otherwise.

[Kyria Nyriese]

blacqout wrote...

Tchones13 wrote...

Exactly.

"I don't hate blondes" became the new "Hey I'm not a racist, I even have a black friend" sort of bull. Along with percentages. I couldn't care less about either.

Speaking for myself: it's not so much about the result of the second poll. It's how it came to be.

Put your intelligence and all your math equations into that (and your hipocrisy aside), and we'll get somewhere.

That's how i feel too.

It's not cool that this kind of pressure has been allowed to influence the creation process. Hopefully it wont become a repeated thing, because the quality of these games is really going to suffer otherwise.

Well since I can't read the minds of the people at Bioware, and unless you can, you are assuming, because for whatever reason you feel that anything that changes whether or not something is the way you think it should be is because of some nefarious reason, rather than the simple fact that people don't agree with you - which last time I looked we were allowed to disagree with each other.  I didn't like the blonde, I am a blonde, I wouldn't have cared less if she had stayed blonde, I would have still gotten my Collector's Edition, with the blonde Shepard on it, cheered for the Fem Shep trailer and enjoyed the game with my red headed Shepard.  Now I would consider myself to be relatively cynical, but come on here people, you are reading to much into this.  Simple fact, we voted for a Shepard with shoulder length hair, then we were asked what color we would like her hair to be.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.

[blacqout]

Kyria Nyriese wrote...
If you want to go that route, then look at the other numbers, they don't lie either.  31579 people voted for Shepard #5, 43719 voted in the second poll, I would think that would be the ones interested in what she ended up looking like.  Of that 43719 voters, 19728, the strong majority of the votes, were for the red head.  Again numbers rule out.  You cannot compare the numbers from the complete first poll (chosing what she looks like overall) to the numbers of the second poll (the hair color).  To quote a friend I was discussing this with - "To use that logic, the millions of people who voted for Obama clearly indicates that FemShep should be a black man."

Numbers are logical, your arguments are not.  While I have no proof that no one voted for red headed Shepard because they don't like blondes and think they are bimbos.  You have no proof either that this was the only reason.  The numbers state that the majority preferred a red headed female Shep with shoulder length hair.  Since I cannot ask each and every person why they voted they way they did, the numbers are the only thing that can speak for the majority.  I think the numbers have spoken for themselves.

Numbers alone are meaningless. I'm not an amateur, so i'm accounting for social factors.

The facts are that significantly fewer people voted in the second round of voting.

It's also reasonable to assume that those of us that were happy with the initial results, and that were given no reason to believe that BioWare would have a do-over, would have happily moved on with our lives while the people that disliked it continued to follow the story.

As i've said, this is reflected in the voting.

[blacqout]

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

  Simple fact, we voted for a Shepard with shoulder length hair, then we were asked what color we would like her hair to be.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.

That's not a "fact", though. We were asked to select the Shepard we wanted.

There was no indication that we would then get to vote on hair colour because that was never the plan. The second round of voting came about because of the misogynistic whining on these forums, on twitter and in the blogosphere.

[DarthSliver]

The important thing here is that Jennifer Hale is voicing a femshep she more or so prefers considering what i heard when the first poll was going on.
Also Redhair femshep reminds me alot of what the original default one looks like, just ME3 modified.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Why? It's simple:

Bioware don't like complaints. They attempt to please what they believe is the majority. The problem with that is, a crowd of minorities will always be louder than a city of majorities.

The minority complain. They whine, they whine like little female dogs. Bioware take complaints, they listen, they act accordingly. Of course, if Bioware had any sense their "according" action would've been to take "fan input" and throw it in a volcano years ago.

Long story short: The minority complain the majority don't. Bioware deal with complaints by simply complying.

[Kyria Nyriese]

blacqout wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

  Simple fact, we voted for a Shepard with shoulder length hair, then we were asked what color we would like her hair to be.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.

That's not a "fact", though. We were asked to select the Shepard we wanted.

There was no indication that we would then get to vote on hair colour because that was never the plan. The second round of voting came about because of the misogynistic whining on these forums, on twitter and in the blogosphere.

OK let's look at this again.  I cannot in anyway determine the thought processes of the people who voted in the polls except for myself.  Because of this, I cannot determine that intention on anything EXCEPT the numbers, there are no other facts to look at besides the numbers and my opinion.  Since my opinion is mine and mine alone and not everyone is going to agree with it, I can't base the outcome of the polls on my opinion.  Again the only thing there is to go off of on this is the numbers.  Yes numbers never tell the entire story, however, in situations such as this they are the only information we have.

As for Bioware suddenly saying "oh we don't want a blonde let's drum her out of the running" come on.  Until Bioware comes out and says that, I'm going once again with the numbers in this case.  Also if they hadn't wanted the blonde, I'm willing to bet she wouldn't have been a choice.  Given the size of the actual choice, I'm going to say they were completely benign in this, and simply gave us choices.  How people use those choices is not the object of the end decision, it is what they actually chose.  Once again we are back to numbers, and the numbers point that the overwhelming choice was a red headed Shepard with shoulder lenth hair and freckles.

[Alock1a]

Red Son Rising wrote...

Alock1a wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Alock1a wrote...

You'd think they would create a Femshep of a racial minority or something. 

I've really only ever seen Femsheps that looked White and Asian. Never a Black femshep. 

Well, how many black HimSheps have you seen?

It's practically the same deal, except I've seen a few Himsheps that actually looked black. Google "black shepard mass effect" and this comes up, but when was the last time you saw a Shepard that looked like this, or this? You probably haven't. 

i voted for in the first poll, knew that wasnt gonna work out but i had hope. voted for Ginger shep second time, got it right for once

the only male shep i use is based on Barack Obama via masseffect2faces.com


today one of the joystiq staffers commented on the femshep controversy. 

@XanderSliwinski tweeted
I don't care what BioWare tells me, FemShep is a proud, black woman.
via twitter 8/29/10

there are plenty of black shepards out there, every player has the option to make shepard whatever ethnicity they want. i normally role caucasian femsheps, mostly cause even with dark skin most good looking femsheps cant hide the generally caucasian features 

Sorry, but Shepard 4 never looked very Black to me. The thing is that even on the darkest skin setting, a Shepard does not have the skin color of most Black people. I don't quite know why you can have a Shepard with skin the color of snow but it doesn't go the other way. 

[Red Son Rising]

Alock1a wrote...
Sorry, but Shepard 4 never looked very Black to me. The thing is that even on the darkest skin setting, a Shepard does not have the skin color of most Black people. I don't quite know why you can have a Shepard with skin the color of snow but it doesn't go the other way. 

wow. thast the dumbest thing ive read on these forums so far. sorry to burst yer bubble but most african american ppl arent don cheadle / duany duany black. every shade between light skined and blue black counts, any argument that reads 'not black enuff' should [will be] disregarded as ignorant and stupid



all african american and black in my book

[Neria Rose]

Alock1a wrote...

It's practically the same deal, except I've seen a few Himsheps that actually looked black. Google "black shepard mass effect" and this comes up, but when was the last time you saw a Shepard that looked like this, or this? You probably haven't. 

Without getting into a colorism debate and regretting that I feel the need to defend my Shep, I don't see what's wrong with her vs. the two real people you posted in terms of being black. I designed her to be something like myself in game, so she has as close to my skin tone as I could find and she has the curliest possible hair, since a natural wasn't an option. Admittedly, she was also designed to look like she has some Native American in her as a nod to my heritage, but I still self-identify as just black unless I get the occasional 'omgz wut r u mixed with? / omgz i thought ur mom/dad wuz white?' shpeal.

Point is, she's black. Someone who is racist against blacks is going to view her in the same light as the lovely model you posted. And I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just responding to the 'but' in your post. If you didn't mean it that way, then I apologize in advance.

Modifié par Neria Rose, 30 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[RynJ]

Tchones13 wrote...

RynJ wrote...

It's not a skewed result because less people voted. Your "logical" conclusions are nothing more than pure speculation. The intelligent people among us know that

I just don't get what's so hard to grasp that the 2nd poll wasn't just created because of the prejudiced blonde whiners. Bioware stated it was because people showed interest in a 2nd vote for hair color, which they did. Thinking they did it for any other reason is another silly speculation based on your own hurt feelings.

Again, I supported a second poll. Does that make me a blonde hater? Nope I just like choice.

Not only did redhead win, but blonde lost to every other color. Blonde supporters did not just disappear into the forest, a lot of the most likely only voted for 5 based on her hair style. The 2nd poll proves this.

It's doesn't prove anything. But I won't bother arguing, since disagreeing with you apparently makes people less intelligent.
Also, I have to feed the Chihuahua in my bag. Excuse me.

Oh you! What's your chihuahua's name! Mine is named Butch.

The intelligence comment is a parody on the same comment made by the OP earlier regarding people disagreeing with him, not my own words.

It certainly proves that most voters didn't want blonde Shep. Or are factual numbers arguable as well?

[RynJ]

Tchones13 wrote...

Exactly.

"I don't hate blondes" became the new "Hey I'm not a racist, I even have a black friend" sort of bull. Along with percentages. I couldn't care less about either.

Speaking for myself: it's not so much about the result of the second poll. It's how it came to be.

Put your intelligence and all your math equations into that (and your hipocrisy aside), and we'll get somewhere.

Really now, are you the expert on how the 2nd poll came to be? Last time I checked Bioware said they made the poll because voters expressed interest in a hair color vote. I don't recall them saying that they were pandering to people prejudiced against blondes. Where's your proof of that being the reason for the 2nd poll? There isn't any.

I'm seeing plenty of hipocrisy from both sides love. It never ends I tell you!

And now your calling everyone who says they don't hate blondes liars. Really?

Modifié par RynJ, 30 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[RynJ]

Tchones13 wrote...

blacqout wrote...
The second vote came around because the misogynistic whining of a vocal minority, allowing people with less evil intentions such as yourself to benefit.

I agree. It served mostly the fans who made a lot of noise. And that's fine because "the numbers have spoken". Riiight.

Kyria Nyriese wrote...
Simple fact, we voted for a Shepard with shoulder length hair, then we were asked what color we would like her hair to be.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.

Correction: It began with "Choose the Shepard you want..." and then it became something else. It was never stated that the first round was hairstyle only. Or that the second would be hair color. It was never announced there would be multiple rounds in the first place.

Bioware never said there wouldn't be a second poll. They never said the first was the be all and end all. It was their decision and they made it to try to make the fans happy.  You do not have to be informed of decisions they will make in the future. For all you know they were considering the option of a 2nd poll before the 1st even started.  And they are not "cheating" anybody because orginial Shep 5 is in the vote. If people wanted her they would have voted for her.

And it served mostly the fans who made a lot of noise now. Oh and apparently the majority didn't want other colors than blonde. Sorry I had no idea!  I guess the numbers lie.

Modifié par RynJ, 30 août 2011 - 07:37 .