431 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

MajesticJazz wrote...

1. Bioware IS trying to move away from RPG elements and they are very vocal about it. Just look at this image taken from Bioware lecture at GDC 2010 regarding the development of ME2

Now post the image where it says they turned them back on.  For the interested, here's the entire presentation:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[MajesticJazz]

didymos1120 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

1. Bioware IS trying to move away from RPG elements and they are very vocal about it. Just look at this image taken from Bioware lecture at GDC 2010 regarding the development of ME2

Now post the image where it says they turned them back on.  For the interested, here's the entire presentation:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

I never saw an image that says they turned them back on......

[aridor1570]

MajesticJazz wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

1. Bioware IS trying to move away from RPG elements and they are very vocal about it. Just look at this image taken from Bioware lecture at GDC 2010 regarding the development of ME2

Now post the image where it says they turned them back on.  For the interested, here's the entire presentation:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

I never saw an image that says they turned them back on......

Then you are blind, my good sir.

[1136342t54_]

Interesting. It seems that many Bioware players can't play another game that is an RPG or at least a game with RPG elements without comparing it to Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

Very interesting.

[The Sapien]

Dariuszp wrote...

Well I did play on hard. Can you please explain me how higher difficult settings change approach to every mission in the game ? You just cover and shoot all the time moving forward. And for every "minigames" there is so much time that you can drink coffee while hacking. And at some point you get that doubled.
You clearly don't know what I'm talking about do you ? Try deus ex and see for yourself.

The hardest part of playing DE is getting through the annoyances, for me. I'll try harder settings.

The harder the settings on ME2, the more you must use tactics. If you just use cover and shoot, like you said, you won't get very far. I can't count the number of times I've been in situations where I've paused and held the pause desperately trying to think of how the hell I was going to figure a way to just retreat for a bit after making one false move because I was feeling cocky... For me, it's a lot like playing chess, except I'm starting without any pawns, am outnumbered, outgunned, and everything is stacked against me from the start. And, I've no option of just sneaking and skipping it.

[The Sapien]

1136342t54 wrote...

Interesting. It seems that many Bioware players can't play another game that is an RPG or at least a game with RPG elements without comparing it to Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

Very interesting.

Like sex.

So I've heard.

[LPPrince]

DXHR on Hard isn't very different from DXHR on Easy.

As long as you play stealth and hacking, you should be fine.

Where it gets challenging is the boss fights.

[littlezack]

Really, the two boss fights I've encountered so far weren't that hard - at least, they aren't if you've built a character that's made for fighting. The first time I fought Barret, I had a character that was mostly built for stealth. While I'm sure it's concievably possible to beat him like that, I gave up after about ten tries, reloaded, then came back with better weaponry and a character with more armor. I beat him in thirty seconds, first try.

That's fine to an extent, but I feel like, while you do have the choice between gunning and stealth, the game is so focused on the stealth approach and rewarding it that it doesn't feel like much of a choice at all. You get less XP for gunning, you'll probably die more, you'll constantly be scrounging around for ammo and credits, so aside from wanting to make the game harder than it needs to be, why would you? The same way with killing vs knocking out enemies - yes, I can kill every stealthily or just knock them out, but killing them gets you less XP and alerts the other guards, which kind of defeats the point of being stealthy in the first place. If one choice has benefits and the other doesn't, it's not really much of a choice.

[TuringPoint]

Yeah, they made the choice of stealth vs. run and gun very one sided. For that matter, Stealth was nullified in the boss fights to varying degrees.

It had pretty solid cover mechanics. They've already put work into that with ME3, but. Who knows. Maybe looking at DE: HR for that would help somehow.

[Clonedzero]

MajesticJazz wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

1. Bioware IS trying to move away from RPG elements and they are very vocal about it. Just look at this image taken from Bioware lecture at GDC 2010 regarding the development of ME2

Now post the image where it says they turned them back on.  For the interested, here's the entire presentation:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

I never saw an image that says they turned them back on......

you missed it look back.

i hate when people use a single picture or phrase out of context to try and claim something thats not true.

[Sideshow Jed]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Hardcore RPG elements?

Well compared to today's standards yes, but not the typical 90s point of view.

My whole point is that DE:HR is an Action-RPG that isn't afraid or ashamed to show off and emphasize RPG elements. The reason being is due to the different philosophies that both Bioware and Eidos Montreal are pursuing.

Bioware is seeming to in some ways "want out" of their RPG past where 100% of their base were RPG players. They seem to want to cateer to to the Gears of War type player. In the end, Bioware is ONLY about the money and I wouldn't be surprised if their news IP is an all out Shooter with even less RPG elements than ME2.

Then you have Eidos Montreal which also wants to make a lot of money but their ideals are different from that of Bioware. While Bioware is all about getting away from the RPG gamer and focusing on the Action/Shooter gamer, Eidos Montreal is trying to appeal to the new school Action/Shooter player all while at the same time making sure that players of the original DE are satisfied. Eidos Montreal was not afriad to include RPG elements heavily into their marketing such as Augmentation upgrading and so on which is a stark contrast to Bioware which ONLY markets the Shooter stuff with little to NO emphasis on RPG elements.

In the end, I am really cheering for DE:HR because there seems to be this notion in the industry [Or atleast with Bioware] that RPG game can no longer be profitable. DE:HR isn't the hardcore RPG game of the 90s that we saw on the SNES and PS1 but it is a highly marketed game that DOES feature some deep RPG gameplay and elements. This is why I am also rooting for Skyrim, Witcher 2, and even Dark Souls because if Bioware has their way, there probably won't be a RPG genre 7 years from now.

So what elements from DE:HR would make great additions into ME3? RPG!!!!!

Without specific examples, "Hardcore PRG elements" is an empty phrase.

[LGTX]

Bioware is not about catering or making too much money, as far as I can see it. It's THEM who are unafraid to admit than genre differentiations are becoming blurrier, so they try to make their games as "their" as possible, devoid of technical classification, which leads many players not used to this kind of thinking to assume that the games are being catered. Because that's the only explanation for them.

No offense to said groups. Deus Ex, while a solid game made by an enthusiastic team of extremely visionary and dedicated people, is working on a far too outdated formula of stitching polarized, genre-specific mechanics upon each other and finding ways to make them coexist. In the case of Deus Ex, the execution of said tactic is borderline flawless, so I simply can't bash the approach.

Bioware, however, don't resort to building games out of different types of bricks, to use a lame metaphor. They mix their own material.

Just a little opinionated rant here, excuse the slight offtopic nature.

[JayhartRIC]

Sideshow Jed wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Hardcore RPG elements?

Well compared to today's standards yes, but not the typical 90s point of view.

My whole point is that DE:HR is an Action-RPG that isn't afraid or ashamed to show off and emphasize RPG elements. The reason being is due to the different philosophies that both Bioware and Eidos Montreal are pursuing.

Bioware is seeming to in some ways "want out" of their RPG past where 100% of their base were RPG players. They seem to want to cateer to to the Gears of War type player. In the end, Bioware is ONLY about the money and I wouldn't be surprised if their news IP is an all out Shooter with even less RPG elements than ME2.

Then you have Eidos Montreal which also wants to make a lot of money but their ideals are different from that of Bioware. While Bioware is all about getting away from the RPG gamer and focusing on the Action/Shooter gamer, Eidos Montreal is trying to appeal to the new school Action/Shooter player all while at the same time making sure that players of the original DE are satisfied. Eidos Montreal was not afriad to include RPG elements heavily into their marketing such as Augmentation upgrading and so on which is a stark contrast to Bioware which ONLY markets the Shooter stuff with little to NO emphasis on RPG elements.

In the end, I am really cheering for DE:HR because there seems to be this notion in the industry [Or atleast with Bioware] that RPG game can no longer be profitable. DE:HR isn't the hardcore RPG game of the 90s that we saw on the SNES and PS1 but it is a highly marketed game that DOES feature some deep RPG gameplay and elements. This is why I am also rooting for Skyrim, Witcher 2, and even Dark Souls because if Bioware has their way, there probably won't be a RPG genre 7 years from now.

So what elements from DE:HR would make great additions into ME3? RPG!!!!!

Without specific examples, "Hardcore PRG elements" is an empty phrase.

Exactly.  If you like DE:HR's execution of certain things better that is a valid opinion.  However, ME2 definitely has all the same elements.

[Chromie]

@OP You haven't played the game yet you started a few Deus Ex threads? o.0

[Jaron Oberyn]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Sideshow Jed wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Hardcore RPG elements?

Well compared to today's standards yes, but not the typical 90s point of view.

My whole point is that DE:HR is an Action-RPG that isn't afraid or ashamed to show off and emphasize RPG elements. The reason being is due to the different philosophies that both Bioware and Eidos Montreal are pursuing.

Bioware is seeming to in some ways "want out" of their RPG past where 100% of their base were RPG players. They seem to want to cateer to to the Gears of War type player. In the end, Bioware is ONLY about the money and I wouldn't be surprised if their news IP is an all out Shooter with even less RPG elements than ME2.

Then you have Eidos Montreal which also wants to make a lot of money but their ideals are different from that of Bioware. While Bioware is all about getting away from the RPG gamer and focusing on the Action/Shooter gamer, Eidos Montreal is trying to appeal to the new school Action/Shooter player all while at the same time making sure that players of the original DE are satisfied. Eidos Montreal was not afriad to include RPG elements heavily into their marketing such as Augmentation upgrading and so on which is a stark contrast to Bioware which ONLY markets the Shooter stuff with little to NO emphasis on RPG elements.

In the end, I am really cheering for DE:HR because there seems to be this notion in the industry [Or atleast with Bioware] that RPG game can no longer be profitable. DE:HR isn't the hardcore RPG game of the 90s that we saw on the SNES and PS1 but it is a highly marketed game that DOES feature some deep RPG gameplay and elements. This is why I am also rooting for Skyrim, Witcher 2, and even Dark Souls because if Bioware has their way, there probably won't be a RPG genre 7 years from now.

So what elements from DE:HR would make great additions into ME3? RPG!!!!!

Without specific examples, "Hardcore PRG elements" is an empty phrase.

Exactly.  If you like DE:HR's execution of certain things better that is a valid opinion.  However, ME2 definitely has all the same elements.

I'm sorry but your statement is false. Mass Effect does not have all the same elements as DX. It doesn't have exploration or multiple ways to approach a mission. The levels and hub worlds are all linear. For DXHR, the "hub" cities are huge and have lots of exploration and verticality. Missions have different routes that the player can shoose, so it isn't a linear shooting gallery like Mass Effect. Deus Ex HR has a proper loot system, not a dumbed down armor or weapons locker because people found it too hard to go through an organized inventory. :innocent:Deus Ex HR also has a strong story with real consequences to your choices, both of which Mass Effect 2 lacks significantly. ME gives you the illusion that you're making a choice when in reality you are not. The story was also weak compared to the first game. These are all facts which cannot be disputed. In light of that, your statement is wrong. You cannot say that ME2 has all of the same elements of DXHR.

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

Ringo12 wrote...

@OP You haven't played the game yet you started a few Deus Ex threads? o.0

And what's the problem with that now? This thread isn't about the OP formulating his own opinion, I'm pretty sure he can manage that without creating a thread. This thread is to ask others what elements they think should be in the game. Stop trolling.


-Polite

[LPPrince]

Guys? Hey Guys.

Lets be nicy nicies, eh?

[Jaron Oberyn]

jreezy wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

@OP You haven't played the game yet you started a few Deus Ex threads? o.0

And what's the problem with that now? This thread isn't about the OP formulating his own opinion, I'm pretty sure he can manage that without creating a thread. This thread is to ask others what elements they think should be in the game. Stop trolling.


-Polite

Someone pointing out something odd is trolling now? I guess I need to remember that.

I still don't find it odd, but sure. 

-Polite

[1136342t54_]

I find it a bit odd to be honest but oh well that's BSN for ya.

[Jaron Oberyn]

LPPrince wrote...

Guys? Hey Guys.

Lets be nicy nicies, eh?

I wasn't getting angry at all, only a little frustrated that people on here are starting to act like the childish, complaining forum members of Bungie.net.

-Polite

[The Spamming Troll]

LGTX wrote...
Bioware, however, don't resort to building games out of different types of bricks, to use a lame metaphor. They mix their own material.

ah, not so much actually. i would say the exact opposite. ME2 is more like gears of war then anything else biowares made. ME2 is more of a spinoff to ME1 then a continuation.

[1136342t54_]

ME2 is more of them focusing on the story then RPG elements. At least that is what Bioware says. Honestly I don't find that horrible. If I want a hardcore RPG I will play Dragon Age Origins or go back to Baldur's Gate. From what I'm hearing of Deus Ex is that it tried to mix in elements from a RPG and shooter and has done it well but people wouldn't call it a RPG.

[Epic777]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...

Sideshow Jed wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Hardcore RPG elements?

Well compared to today's standards yes, but not the typical 90s point of view.

My whole point is that DE:HR is an Action-RPG that isn't afraid or ashamed to show off and emphasize RPG elements. The reason being is due to the different philosophies that both Bioware and Eidos Montreal are pursuing.

Bioware is seeming to in some ways "want out" of their RPG past where 100% of their base were RPG players. They seem to want to cateer to to the Gears of War type player. In the end, Bioware is ONLY about the money and I wouldn't be surprised if their news IP is an all out Shooter with even less RPG elements than ME2.

Then you have Eidos Montreal which also wants to make a lot of money but their ideals are different from that of Bioware. While Bioware is all about getting away from the RPG gamer and focusing on the Action/Shooter gamer, Eidos Montreal is trying to appeal to the new school Action/Shooter player all while at the same time making sure that players of the original DE are satisfied. Eidos Montreal was not afriad to include RPG elements heavily into their marketing such as Augmentation upgrading and so on which is a stark contrast to Bioware which ONLY markets the Shooter stuff with little to NO emphasis on RPG elements.

In the end, I am really cheering for DE:HR because there seems to be this notion in the industry [Or atleast with Bioware] that RPG game can no longer be profitable. DE:HR isn't the hardcore RPG game of the 90s that we saw on the SNES and PS1 but it is a highly marketed game that DOES feature some deep RPG gameplay and elements. This is why I am also rooting for Skyrim, Witcher 2, and even Dark Souls because if Bioware has their way, there probably won't be a RPG genre 7 years from now.

So what elements from DE:HR would make great additions into ME3? RPG!!!!!

Without specific examples, "Hardcore PRG elements" is an empty phrase.

Exactly.  If you like DE:HR's execution of certain things better that is a valid opinion.  However, ME2 definitely has all the same elements.

I'm sorry but your statement is false. Mass Effect does not have all the same elements as DX. It doesn't have exploration or multiple ways to approach a mission. The levels and hub worlds are all linear. For DXHR, the "hub" cities are huge and have lots of exploration and verticality. Missions have different routes that the player can shoose, so it isn't a linear shooting gallery like Mass Effect. Deus Ex HR has a proper loot system, not a dumbed down armor or weapons locker because people found it too hard to go through an organized inventory. :innocent:Deus Ex HR also has a strong story with real consequences to your choices, both of which Mass Effect 2 lacks significantly. ME gives you the illusion that you're making a choice when in reality you are not. The story was also weak compared to the first game. These are all facts which cannot be disputed. In light of that, your statement is wrong. You cannot say that ME2 has all of the same elements of DXHR.

-Polite

I have to disagree with you. HR doesn't have a classical loot system. The game discourages LOOT-KILL-SELL. You can only carry one of the same weapon. If I kill/knock out 5 agents(and you will), I will have to loot 1 of these guys machine pistols sell that, go back and repeat, combined with the long distances from each seller makes it very impractical. Consequences, really?

->First mission kill no one/kill everyone, a few comments back at sarif but nothing that changes the plot

(spoilers) -start

->Let Zeke go, capture him










.................still hostile later
->Save Malik - No difference to the plot
->Lethal or non lethal when you fight the harvesters - Tong makes a few remarks and again no difference.
->Your choice makes no difference - see project d
















(spoilers) -end


->HR like all the deus ex games is very linear in how you progress the game.


Do I hate HR? No, quite the opposite I love the game and have already completed it 3 times. However I don't like how HR is being used as a mythical validation of 'rpg elements' in modern shooters. HR doesn't have stats, attributes or a proper loot system however its strong on the RPG side.

The RPG elements it does have are very well executed. For example notice jenson is a sure shoot from the start of the game. Jenson doesn't go from not beign able to hit the broadside of an elephants backside to sniping insects at distance. He doesn't have put XP into leveling up weapon skills. However they're things to help him shoot better - recoiless and aim stabilizers augs.

Also the inventory is far more constrained and works much better than your average game because of the limit on space choices and sacrifices have be made. Logically RPG inventories should force the players into careful descions about the items they store due to limited inventory space. In practice the player by the mid-game has plenty of space. The hardest choice the player has is between +1 infinity blade and +1.5 infinity blade. Most of the items in a players inventory tend to be vendor trash only useful to be sold

Modifié par Epic777, 05 septembre 2011 - 03:34 .